Posted by Elroy on February 24, 2005, at 20:40:39
In reply to Re: CES » Elroy, posted by franco neuro on February 24, 2005, at 14:30:16
RE: I'm also a little worried about the dopamine agonists making anxiety and insomnia worse.
My exact fear also. In fact, it's a tremendous fear, as I had anxiety first - and it was very severe - and the depression kind of tagged along in much later.
But then I get to thinking that if I have added anxiety I'll take some extra Xanax and if the anxiety continues I'll stop the Selegiline... plus some postings have indicated that 10mg of Selegiline and a reduced dose of DLPA (say 250mg instead of 500mg or even 1000mg that some take) does a great job of reducing / eliminating the anxiety aspects and in fact that adjusted combo creates an anti-anxiety effect.... from what I gather, the selegiline (at those dosage levels) doesn't so much create dopamine (etc.) - though it does to an extent - as it greatly prolongs the effects of the DLPA, not only dopamine raising effects, but specifically PEA also (and especially - PEA has an extremely limited half-life, like maybe a minute, and the Selegiline stretches it out for hours or something like that).
See:
http://www.selegiline.com/pea.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020301/msgs/96388.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020301/msgs/96497.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020301/msgs/95949.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030130/msgs/138798.htmlAlso, might want to consider adding L-theanine in with the combo as it is very good for anti-anxiety."
RE: The thing is we all react differently to these meds. Maybe the people who feel over-stimulated by the pro-dopamine meds. didn't have a dopamine difficiency to begin with. By reading through a lot of these posts I've found that some people actually start sleeping better when they take them.
Also I found this related to Selegiline (or Deprenyl):
Quote: DEPRENYL - DOSAGES FOR LIFE EXTENSION PURPOSES - As stated previously, Professor Knoll is a man who 'practises what he preaches' and reportedly takes two 5mg Deprenyl tablets per week. We (Dean, Fowkes and Morgenthaler) recommend the following age adjusted titrated dosage schedule in our book, "Smart Drugs 2" -
Age. Dosage
30-35 1mg twice a week
35-40 1mg every other day
40-45 1mg every day
45-50 2mg every day
50-55 3mg every day
55-60 4mg every day
60-65 5mg every day
65-70 6mg every day
70-75 8mg every day
75-80 9mg every day
80 plus 10mg every day
END QUOTEAnd those levels are just for longevity purposes!
http://www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenyl.htm
QUOTE: L-phenylalanine, an amino acid, has been shown to increase the effectiveness of Deprenyl. In one European study of 155 patients, 5-10 milligrams of Deprenyl and 250 milligrams of phenylalanine, was administered for depression (Deprenyl is often used as an anti-depression drug) with outstanding results (Dean, 1993). Nearly seventy percent of the patients achieved total alleviation of depression, while more than twenty percent of the remaining patients achieved moderate improvement... smaller study of 10 patients, using only 5 milligrams of Deprenyl, 100 milligrams of vitamin B6, and 1 to 6 grams of phenylalanine were given every other day for major types of depression that had proved resistant to other drug therapies (Dean, 1993). 60 per cent of these patients reported complete relief from depression in only 2 to 3 days... END QUOTEhttp://www.deprenyl.net/
QUOTE: Birkmayer et al. reported benefit in an uncontrolled study in 102 outpatients and 53 inpatients with unipolar depression who received selegiline hydrochloride 5 to 10 mg daily in association with phenylalanine 250 mg daily- about 70% of these patients, in whom conventional antidepressants were not effective, were reported as having complete remission. END QUOTEhttp://www.selegiline.com/depplus.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20010417/msgs/60824.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20011222/msgs/88292.html#searchBTW, I found a used CES device (like a demo model) that still has full warranty and return policy coverages for like $180 so I ordered it today. had some money put away for a trip but the wife said we likely weren't gonig anywhere anyway with the shapoe that I've been in lately... so..... Should have it Monday. I found some sites that referred to it also having a cortisol control effect and also indicated that it might be effective at "re-setting" the HPA Axis. It is a HealthPax Cranial Electrical Stimulator unit. You don't happen to know if that's the model Dr. Braverman uses or not do you?
Anyway, I especially would find the cortisol control aspect of it very "interesting"!
I think that I had slightly elevated cortisol for several years (let's say 1996 - 1999), with a "bump up" then from 2000 - 2002. There was some on-going therapy between July 2002 and early Feb 2004 (which I think caused the cortisol to plaeau off if not recede slightly... but overall, I think that the HP Axis was already "mostly broken" and just waiting for the right trigger). The therapy (and Ambien) was stopped as I "was better" (in fact was feeling greater than I had in years). Then in June of 2004 there was then a family loss situation that provided that trigger and there was suddenly a huge amount of anxiety. That was then soon followed by hypogonadism, strong peripheral neuropathy symptoms, strong UTI type symptoms, and tinnitus... with the first starting within about 2 weeks of the anxiety onset and all of them surfacing within about 2 - 3 weeks of each other! So I think that in one sense the chronic anxiety stressed (over-stressed) the HPA Axis which resulted in chronic high levels of cortisol. The chronic high levels of cortisol enhanced the anxiety and the very severe anxiety "broke" the HPA Axis, causing a steady flood of excessive cortisol which - along with the anxiety - caused the rapid onset of the various physical disorders.
And I think the problem has to be addressed from a multi-faceted approach:
In my case, the first response (after the PCP visits with a couple of Real Klowns) was with endos - as I knew that there was something going on wrong "inside". That's when the super low Test and the super high cortisol was found.
Then I fired things back up with the Psych Doc as the anxiety levels were just continuing to escalate - and I knew that whereas that first time I got away with no meds (other than herbal SJW), that this time around the anxiety was so severe that meds were going to be needed... Plus I later found out that Xanax has been shown to be quite beneficial for several types of tinnitus (and it surely was in my case!).
But hands-on therapy is now the next stage coming up. I am starting things back up with my prior therapist in a couple of weeks. Plus I found out that she is now advanced trained in that EMDR technology so she's going to incorporate that therapy.
See: http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=4144
I am also considering adding in the Redirecting Self Therapy into the mix (on my own).
See: http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=4083
Also, I believe that the brain neurotransmitters are completely out of balance and that some need boosting (see Dr. Braverman's book, "The Edge Effect"), so I am going to simultaneously address those particulars with specific nutrients and the use of the CES device.
Oh... and on top of all of that, I'm going to address the cortisol levels directly by escalting use of anti-cortisol supps - and maybe trying to actually talk my endo into doing the short-term RU486 therapy for stopping cortisol and re-setting the HPA Axis.
Anxieties and depressions that do not respond effectively to early efforts to correct brain neurotransmiiters are - IMHO - very likely to be a result of a broken HPA Axis... especially, I believe, in scenarios where anxiety started first and depression came in later. Anyway, the system cannot completely turn off the Fight Or Flight Mechanism so until the HPA Axis gets "re-set", the meds don't work, or do for a while and then stop working, and the various therapy approaches either don't work, or work very, very slowly.
Anyway, there has been some interesting research done into the use of RU486 for treating severe depression (and would work similarly IMO in cases of anxiety, etc. that were related to elevated cortisol - which we KNOW exists in my case).
See:
http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/psychotic.asp (this is my type of depression... active, anxious, agitated)
http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p040592.html
http://www2.eclinicalpsychiatrynews.com/scripts/om.dll/serve?action=searchDB&searchDBfor=art&artType=full&id=aqc04032616
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/nnp/research/publication/18411
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2000/november8/ru486-1108.html
http://www.wctv6.com/news/features/1/326156.html
http://www.healthyplace.com/communities/depression/psychotic_ru486.aspFinally, I strongly think that the pain-feedback mechanism ends up getting involved also. It's funny (ironic - not Ha-ha) that I used to be one who was real stoic about pain, really didn't bother me significantly. But now it's like the chronic ones (like the neuropathies) just clearly add to the anxiety... now actually the Selegiline/DLPA combo actually has some chronic pain relief qualities, so that alone might help out quite a bit. But if not, then I'm looking at pushing for the Lyrica also. Since it is supposed to have a decent anti-anxiety effect also, my hope is that I can get off of the Xanax XR with switching to the Lyrica.
See:
http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?id=7887
http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?id=7893And of course my bottom line objective is to:
(A) Get the HPA Axis fully under control and properly producing correct cortisol levels.
(B) Get the brain neurotransmitters balanced and then optimized so that there is no anxiety and no depression
(C) And that this can all be done with the bonus of getting weaned off of the meds and just relegated to some core supplements, diet, exercise, and proper attitude!
I realize that (C) might be tough. With my age, I might find that I'm stuck with staying on the AndroGel as a continuing TRT therapy. But, if that would be it, I would be more than satisfied!
Well, keep me informed as to your deal with Braverman. I'd specifically ask him about the 5 - 10mg Deprenyl combo with 250 - 500mg DLPA (can always raise the DLPA aspect if not anxiety symptoms are noted)... and also what model CES that they use.
In turn, I'll let you know what type reaction that I get with the CES unit once I get going with it.
> I've been out of the loop a couple of days. My computer crashed and I stopped taking my .5mg of klonopin a couple of days ago. I was taking it for sleep but it was making me more depressed. Now, of course, I haven't slept in 3 days. Damn this sucks!
>
> Man you sound a lot like me...except I knew I was heading for a crash for a long time. I even get the tinitus too! But only in my left ear. To be honest with you I'd rather have it both ears. Hypogonadism also. Which, of course, is always the most distressing thing for a guy. You're right...how could we not be depressed!
>
> I had to postpone my appt. with Dr. Barverman until next week. I've been considering selegiline too. I mentioned it to him the last time I was there. It's one of a rather short list of options. I'm also a little worried about the dopamine agonists making anxiety and insomnia worse. I also worry because I get a lot of muscle twitches and am afraid wellbutrin might push me into seizure-ville. But to be honest I don't even care. I'm going to try it anyway. The thing is we all react differently to these meds. Maybe the people who feel over-stimulated by the pro-dopamine meds. didn't have a dopamine difficiency to begin with. By reading through a lot of these posts I've found that some people actually start sleeping better when they take them. Last night I was rolling around unable to sleep and I got up at 4:30 and popped one of Braverman's brain energy supplements (300mg DLPA/200mg l-tyrosine/75mg rhodiola rosea/60mg methionine/2mg octacosanol) along with 500mg tyrosine, my multi, 100mg Alpha Lipoic Acid and 50mg B6. I've found that this actually helps me sleep better. So maybe if dopamine is the problem, boosting it will help with energy and sleep.
>
> When I took the test in his book I came out: 1.GABA 2.Acetylcholine 3.Dopamine 4.Seratonin. I came out with deficiancies in all of them. But I figure if your really low in any, and are feeling rotten, you're gonna come out pretty deficient across the board. Before I got his book I had blood levels checked which showed me low in everything except epinephrine and (oddly enough) dopamine. Although I was barely within "normal" range for dopamine. But Braverman says blood tests are too unreliable.
>
> I think you're exactly right that a dopamine agonist/re-uptake inhibitor and an anti-convulsant type gabaergic (Lyrica/Neurontin) along with tyrosine, DLPA and plenty of B6 might be the way to go. I think the gabaergic anti-convulsants produce a deeper more natural sleep and less of a "downer" effect than the benzodiazipines. At least in my case in regards to Neurontin vs. Xanax/Klonopin.
>
> Hey what do you know! My Pathroid (Braverman's thyroid formula) just arrived via Fedex. I'll start popping them first thing tomorrow morning. God...what the hell happened to me?
poster:Elroy
thread:458455
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20050222/msgs/462944.html