Shown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by River1924 on April 24, 2006, at 0:57:41
Do any drugs stop dreaming?
Do any disorders (depression, anxiety) reduce REM time?
I really try to recall dreams. I've set my alarm clock at weird times in the hope I'll wake in the middle of a dream but no luck. I'm 38 and I've never had a sexual or wet dream. I think that is odd.
My sleep apnea has been treated but my sleep isn't refreshing. Sometimes I think my problems with depression and my memory are connected to my sleep quality but there is no way of knowing, is there?
Sleep seems to be ignored when it comes to psychiatric problems. Anyone know of a good book, site or study about sleep and psychological disorders?
Peace, River.
Posted by madeline on April 24, 2006, at 4:19:14
In reply to Dream. I want to dream., posted by River1924 on April 24, 2006, at 0:57:41
River,
At least where depression is concerned, REM sleep seems to be intensified.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20030715-000001.html
Also, do you take any sleeping medications?
Posted by zeugma on April 24, 2006, at 4:22:35
In reply to Dream. I want to dream., posted by River1924 on April 24, 2006, at 0:57:41
i have the opposite problem: far too much dreaming.
Antidepressants, with few exceptions, limit dreaming. SSRI's block dreaming at first, but many complain of continuous dreaming when on them for long periods of time.
All stimulants, with the exceptions of Provigil and the recently discontinued Cylert, will limit dreaming. Benzodiazepines don't affect dreaming as much.
An excellent book on sleep is "The Promise of Sleep" by the discoverer of REM, William Dement. He covers all the major sleep disorders, apnea, narcolepsy, as well as problems caused by insufficient sleep. He touches on mood disorders too, though the focus is more on sleep in general.
"The Dream Drugstore" by J.A. Hobson is the only book I know exclusively devoted to psychotropics and dreaming. The link between dreaming, sleep and mood disorders is explored in some detail, although the book is somewhat outdated (as is Dement's book) by omitting recent discoveries in sleep, most notably the discovery of the orexin/hypocretin system.
"Dreaming" by Hobson is written in question-and-answer format and is a great book to read in Barnes and Noble or the like. Hobson may have updated the book recently.
Drugs that increase dreaming are anti-Alzheimer's meds like Aricept, though these have the reputation of causing depression.Prazosin, an alpha-1 antagonist, will increase dreaming in narcoleptics and some depressives, while purportedly being useful for combat-induced PTSD. In many ways, Alzheimer's and depression have opposite presentations. A very interesting recent theory on the function of dreaming takes the view that dreaming is essential to the construction of selfhood- Alzheimer's patients literally forget who they are, and depressives remember all too this all too well- the theory at least is intriguing-
Naturwissenschaften. 2005 May;92(5):203-20.
Mammalian sleep.Staunton H.
Department of Clinical Neurological Sciences, Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, Dublin 2, Ireland. hugh@iol.ie
This review examines the biological background to the development of ideas on rapid eye movement sleep (REM sleep), so-called paradoxical sleep (PS), and its relation to dreaming. Aspects of the phenomenon which are discussed include physiological changes and their anatomical location, the effects of total and selective sleep deprivation in the human and animal, and REM sleep behavior disorder, the latter with its clinical manifestations in the human. Although dreaming also occurs in other sleep phases (non-REM or NREM sleep), in the human, there is a contingent relation between REM sleep and dreaming. Thus, REM is taken as a marker for dreaming and as REM is distributed ubiquitously throughout the mammalian class, it is suggested that other mammals also dream. It is suggested that the overall function of REM sleep/dreaming is more important than the content of the individual dream; its function is to place the dreamer protagonist/observer on the topographical world. This has importance for the developing infant who needs to develop a sense of self and separateness from the world which it requires to navigate and from which it is separated for long periods in sleep. Dreaming may also serve to maintain a sense of 'I'ness or "self" in the adult, in whom a fragility of this faculty is revealed in neurological disorders.>>
-z
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 24, 2006, at 5:34:46
In reply to Dream. I want to dream., posted by River1924 on April 24, 2006, at 0:57:41
Poor dream recall can be a sign of deficiency in B6 (pyridoxine). Do you take supplements? If not, you might like to think about it...
Other deficiency signs include:
water retention
tingling hands
depression or nervousness
irritability
muscle tremors or cramps
lack of energy
flaky skin.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B6
There is a link in the wiki article about the dream recall thing, and the article in general is well worth reading.
Kind regardsMeri
Posted by med_empowered on April 24, 2006, at 6:22:28
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream., posted by Meri-Tuuli on April 24, 2006, at 5:34:46
psych meds can be rough on REM sleep. I don't know what you're taking but...you can always talk to your doc about it. A lot of "successul" treatments for depression involve limiting or eliminating REM sleep (or sleep itself, as in sleep deprivation therapy).
Posted by SLS on April 24, 2006, at 9:05:25
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream. » River1924, posted by zeugma on April 24, 2006, at 4:22:35
People often report an increase in dreaming when they take Lamictal or Effexor. Wellbutrin is supposed to increase REM sleep. Generally speaking, people with major depression exhibit an increase in the amount of time spent in REM and a decrease in the latency of the first REM period.
- Scott
Posted by Cairo on April 24, 2006, at 11:51:13
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream., posted by madeline on April 24, 2006, at 4:19:14
I know the feeling. Even though I sleep through the night, I've never felt rested using any med and a CPAP. I'm going for another sleep study to see if there's alpha intrusion or some other factor (no restless legs found on the last sleep study, but my dreaming did increase on Klonopin; it caused depression, however). Lyrica 150mg at bedtime seems to help, but no dreaming yet.
I'm sure you know to stay away from caffeine, chocolate, alcohol and other other stimulants.
Insufficient cortisol or response to cortisol or inflammatory factors such as cytokines are implicated.
http://www.endotext.org/adrenal/adrenal31/adrenal31.htm
http://www.psychiatrist.com/pcc/pccpdf/v03n03/v03n0303.pdfGood night.
Cairo
Posted by River1924 on April 24, 2006, at 13:55:07
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream., posted by Cairo on April 24, 2006, at 11:51:13
I take a S*!$ful of meds:
Provigil 200mg * 2
Dextroamphetamine ER 30mg @ 9 am, 15 mg @ 2pm
Dextroamphetamine 15mg @ 6pm
Wellbutrin XL 300 mg
Klonopin 2 mg
Lyrica 150 mg * 4According to a test I take at the psychiatrist office, I am still severely depressed. Obviously I have never had insomnia... just look at all the stimulants to keep me awake. Without them I wouldl sleep at least nine hours and then quickly go back for a two or three or six hour nap. Most people on this board tend to have insomnia... not me. Luckily I don't drop into REM sleep while I'm awake like many insomniacs do... but I would like to dream. For me, it might improve my memory and I think it would help me just think about life. I see a Jungian therapist: he'd love a dream or two.
Thanks for the feedback, River.
I may ask for another sleep study. I dread them though. I am a second shifter, an owl, most awake from 10 pm to 2 am. Sleep centers don't really accomodate that.
Posted by verne on April 24, 2006, at 20:10:48
In reply to Dream. I want to dream., posted by River1924 on April 24, 2006, at 0:57:41
I agree about B-6. I take a potent B-Complex called "B-Right" before bed if I want to jazz up my already active dream life. I usually recall dreams even after short naps.
I also take inderal which is known to cause nightmares. I can attest to that. The typical inderal dream is full of doom and dread - how that can be caused chemically is a mystery to me.
I noticed my dreams became more pleasant when I countered inderal with cymbalta. Inderal dreams played out like a Hitchcock movie - very methodical, plodding, realistic, and ominous. But the addition of cymbalta, was like Hitchcock on acid. One minute I'm falling of a cliff, and the next, dancing my way to the Emerald City.
verne
Posted by cecilia on April 24, 2006, at 21:17:06
In reply to Dream. I want to dream., posted by River1924 on April 24, 2006, at 0:57:41
I have the opposite problem-endless unpleasant dreams. Sleeping makes me far more tired than anything I could possibly do when awake. I just wish there were some way to get deep dreamless sleep. Cecilia
Posted by Cairo on April 24, 2006, at 21:28:58
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream. » Cairo, posted by River1924 on April 24, 2006, at 13:55:07
Forgive my naivete, but shouldn't you consider asking to change some of those meds that interfere with sleep so you don't need to take the Provigil and dextroamphetamine to stay awake, especially if they're not helping your depression?
Klonopin can cause depression, also. And in some people, anything that stimulates can also exacerbate depression. Did you ever discuss that?
Cairo
> I take a S*!$ful of meds:
>
> Provigil 200mg * 2
> Dextroamphetamine ER 30mg @ 9 am, 15 mg @ 2pm
> Dextroamphetamine 15mg @ 6pm
> Wellbutrin XL 300 mg
> Klonopin 2 mg
> Lyrica 150 mg * 4
>
> According to a test I take at the psychiatrist office, I am still severely depressed. Obviously I have never had insomnia... just look at all the stimulants to keep me awake. Without them I wouldl sleep at least nine hours and then quickly go back for a two or three or six hour nap. Most people on this board tend to have insomnia... not me. Luckily I don't drop into REM sleep while I'm awake like many insomniacs do... but I would like to dream. For me, it might improve my memory and I think it would help me just think about life. I see a Jungian therapist: he'd love a dream or two.
>
> Thanks for the feedback, River.
>
> I may ask for another sleep study. I dread them though. I am a second shifter, an owl, most awake from 10 pm to 2 am. Sleep centers don't really accomodate that.
Posted by Phillipa on April 24, 2006, at 22:08:08
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream., posted by cecilia on April 24, 2006, at 21:17:06
I love to dream. For a while I was having nightmares due to a lot of stressors. Now they are absent or enjoyable and don't want to wake up and miss the ending. Love Phillipa
Posted by River1924 on April 24, 2006, at 23:08:14
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream. » River1924, posted by Cairo on April 24, 2006, at 21:28:58
Not that I normally do this but I can take caffeine pills, and my provigil and my amphetamines and sleep like a baby...
If I choose to stay awake and need to do stuff, those meds make it possible. Otherwise, I can not remain interested in anything because I want to sleep. As for the depression, I test as "severe depression" but I don't feel that depressed. Or depression is my normal state. I don't know.
but I don't dream. I didn't dream as a kid either. Once in awhile I will... but not very often.
I read today that klonopin probably reduces dream time... but I need that for other reasons.
I know it is hard to believe I could possible know what med is helping and what isn't... but I think they are all necessary if I plan to function.
Later, River.
Posted by River1924 on April 24, 2006, at 23:09:38
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream., posted by Phillipa on April 24, 2006, at 22:08:08
That sounds wonderful!
Posted by River1924 on April 24, 2006, at 23:30:42
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream., posted by cecilia on April 24, 2006, at 21:17:06
I had a friend like you. I didn't know better at the time but I;ll ask you: have seen a sleep disorder specialist? If you dream all the time, you may be missing or have very shortened NREM sleep or something. It is hard to know without someone checking your sleep stages.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 25, 2006, at 9:07:36
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream. » Cairo, posted by River1924 on April 24, 2006, at 13:55:07
River,
Could you perhaps have atypical depression? Your statement about how you would sleep all the time without stims is what made me think of it. That and still feeling depressed. When I am depressed, I also sleep all the time. It's one of the first warning signs for me.Atypical Features: During the last two weeks of major depression or bipolar disorder (depressive episode) or the last two years of dysthymia, a person is able to experience brightened mood when good things happen. Also, at least two of the following must be present: substantial gain in weight or appetite, sleeping too much (at nighttime or daytime napping that is at least 10 hours total or two hours beyond normal), body feels heavy or weighted down, or persistent sensitivity to rejection by others that is related to personal or social difficulties. The sensitivity to rejection tends to be a more long-standing problem. The presence of depression may increase the sensitivity, although it is often still present when the person is not depressed. Atypical features occur two to three times more often in women. They are also associated with depression beginning at an earlier age (e.g., teens) and possibly more chronic depressive episodes. Personality and anxiety disorders may also be more common. (From http://www.allaboutdepression.com/dia_01.html )
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atypical_depression
Hope you find some relief from depression and have some great dreams.
gg
Posted by bimini on April 25, 2006, at 16:16:29
In reply to Dream. I want to dream., posted by River1924 on April 24, 2006, at 0:57:41
I sleep like a log, have all my life. After getting hit by a truck I was sleeping about twice as long, no problem falling asleep, just severe problem staying awake. Concerta 72 and Provigil 400 solved the staying awake problem, but I still slept at least 10 hours, 11 -14 if I did anything physical.
The amount of sleeping I did was interpreted as depression, but I didn't feel depressed. Effexor interrupted sleep and I bumbled through the day totally sleep deprived, absentminded and neurotic. Next tactic to be considered was to force me to wake up at the same time after 8 hours of sleep, that produced a 4 hour afternoon nap.
Now I am taking Lamictal and wake up after 8-9 hours feeling awake! I happily reported to my psychiatrist that I am finally efficiently sleeping. I didn't know just what a bad job I did of it that even quantity didn't cut it. My need for stimulants is decreasing too.
I know I have simple partial and complex partial seizures which were untreated. The electrical storms have quieted during the night with Lamictal, I now dream wonderful dreams and remember them when I wake up. I hope you will find a way to make your sleep of better quality.
bimini
Posted by River1924 on April 26, 2006, at 0:15:03
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream., posted by bimini on April 25, 2006, at 16:16:29
Hi.
I did take lamictal. It may have made me slightly more prone to dreaming. About that time, however, my liver enzymes elevated and I needed to stop it.
Thanks for the suggestion. My liver function has improved and my need for sleep reduced since I discovered and was treated for iron overload (hemochromatosis.) Perhaps, lamictal might be effective for me now. My reaction to meds has changed. Before treatment for hemochromatosis, Provigil did nothing. Now I tend to find it a very effective medication. Maybe lamictal would be the same.
Can one have seizures that ONLY affect the brain? If so, how does one get tested for it?
River.
Posted by River1924 on April 26, 2006, at 0:24:29
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream. » River1924, posted by gardenergirl on April 25, 2006, at 9:07:36
Hi,
I would agree but I'm not sure if any doctor I have had cared or has thought this "diagnosis" would alter my treatment.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Does anyone ever recover from atypical depression?
River.
Posted by bimini on April 26, 2006, at 7:39:25
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream. » bimini, posted by River1924 on April 26, 2006, at 0:15:03
I had a severe lymphatic reaction from Lamictal the first time and had to stop; was pretty upset about it because it was the first med to really help me; didn't find out what caused this reaction but was always open to try again.
Seizures occur when a normal pattern of neuronal activity changes by an imbalance of nerve signaling chemicals called neurotransmitters. Abnormal signals to nerve cells in the brain causes strange sensations, emotions, and behavior or sometimes convulsions, muscle spasms, and loss of consciousness. The energy signal may be in just one area of the brain or generalize and affect nerve cells throughout the brain. Normal brain function cannot return until the electrical bursts subside.
EEGs and brain scans are diagnostic tests. Scans identify scarring, lesion or other physical conditions which may cause seizures, an EEG records electrical signals from brain cells. Brain waves during or between seizures show special patterns. EEG can record only signals near the surface, not deep inside the brain.
An Epileptologist is most able to diagnose seizure disorder. The best tool in diagnosis is a careful medical history with as much information as possible about what the seizures looked like and what happened just before they began. It is important to include friends and relatives description and to keep a log.bimini
Posted by Denise1904 on April 26, 2006, at 11:41:56
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream., posted by cecilia on April 24, 2006, at 21:17:06
I find the more depressed I am, the more I seem to dream, or at least the more I remember my dreams.
I also shout out in my sleep at times, according to my boyfriend, I called somebody (my psychiatrist I think :-)) an incompetent fool in my sleep and somebody else a "stupid cow".
I also was apparently counting money in my sleep, which was reflective of a job I was doing with Securicor at the time.
I sometimes have really sinister and sexually perverse dreams, which makes me feel very uncomfortable about the real state of my mind.
I just want a nice deep, peaceful, dreamless slumber.
Denise
Posted by gardenergirl on April 26, 2006, at 15:16:03
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream. » gardenergirl, posted by River1924 on April 26, 2006, at 0:24:29
> I would agree but I'm not sure if any doctor I have had cared or has thought this "diagnosis" would alter my treatment.
That's a shame if it is indeed your diagnosis, because it can guide treatment choices.
> Does anyone ever recover from atypical depression?
I think I'm in the process of it, but it never really goes away. As my therapist puts it, you still get knocked down, but you are able to get back up easier and quicker, with less harm done.
Wishing you sweet dreams,
gg
Posted by zeugma on April 29, 2006, at 17:53:02
In reply to Re: Dream. I want to dream. » River1924, posted by gardenergirl on April 26, 2006, at 15:16:03
there is nothing worse than dreaming uncontrollably.
i swear, if i did not know that it would end when i woke up, i would have felt as if my brainstem were trying to electrocute me, and coming very near to doing so.
i haven't been sleeping enough.
-z
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