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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on March 23, 2006, at 19:24:37
http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/15363105
An interesting addition to the chicken/egg debate.
Linkadge
Posted by rjlockhart on March 23, 2006, at 20:04:39
In reply to psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry, posted by linkadge on March 23, 2006, at 19:24:37
I surely belive that can happen, and also that you can change your self over time, with nuerons and nerve dentries.
Sorry i dont have medscape, i know you have to pay or something.
I wanted to ask dopamine can have an effect on this, if you have alot of dopamine transporters or alot of dopamine (not the fact with schizophenia)
oh i i wanted to ask, can amphetamine (dexamphetamine) change the way you think. I read that a long time exposure to it can cause more "dentries" in the brain to take place. When i took Dexedrine i wanted to change for the better, but now that im off it i feel im just flat out the same. I now take Prozac 40mg, and it doenst at all, i feel more talkive sometimes but that could be the placebo effect. I feel more "airheaded" on Prozac. I know that fluovextine (misspelled) increases Serotonin but it doesnt help with ADD even though it is an activating SSRI, well from what i've heard.
Thanks
Any info would be really apprieciated
Matt
Posted by linkadge on March 23, 2006, at 20:28:57
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry, posted by rjlockhart on March 23, 2006, at 20:04:39
If you do have ADD, you would need to find a doctor, and the right support in order to be treated for that properly. SSRI's like prozac will not really help much in that regard.
I guess you would need to find a doctor to reconsider that diagnosis.
Linkadge
Posted by rjlockhart on March 23, 2006, at 20:47:44
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry, posted by linkadge on March 23, 2006, at 20:28:57
right now im trapped at a point with my mother refusing to use stimulant medication because she put me into a hosptial saying that i was addicted to Dexedrine.
She controls the insurance and so she calls the shots with doctor, i have to consent for her to go in or there is no medical treatment for me. How manipulating is that? very
Anyways can you awnser about the amphetamine and what are really dentries?
Matt
Posted by linkadge on March 23, 2006, at 21:54:01
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry, posted by rjlockhart on March 23, 2006, at 20:47:44
Dendrites sprout from neuronal cells. Its a branch like nerve extension, that is involved in neurotransmission.
I think that if used properly, a drug for ADD may help brain cells to comunicate more efficiantly. If abused for long periods of time, it probably does the opposite.
Linkadge
Posted by rjlockhart on March 23, 2006, at 21:59:26
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry » rjlockhart, posted by linkadge on March 23, 2006, at 21:54:01
dextoamphetmaine, but it did help alot with me being attentive, alot of times i misunderstand and look "random", yea in short words i feel airhead.
But i have to deal with my mom.
Anyways, thanks.
Matt
Posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2006, at 22:12:34
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry, posted by rjlockhart on March 23, 2006, at 21:59:26
Matt you get such good advise from the people on pbabble when are you going to go to the doctors by yourself? no you don't have to have insurance there is always medicaid or the university doctors. Love tired Mom 2
Posted by yxibow on March 24, 2006, at 1:19:31
In reply to psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry, posted by linkadge on March 23, 2006, at 19:24:37
> http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/15363105
>
> An interesting addition to the chicken/egg debate.
>
>
> Linkadge
>Its not really necessarily a chicken/egg thing - its a chicken and egg thing you could say -- psychodynamic, "inside therapy" is a good adjunct to pharmacologic approaches. It all depends on the receptivity of the patient -- if they're catatatonic, discussion is obviously not going to go anywhere, but probing into the root of things can alter, both back and forth, neurochemistry. I currently have both forms of therapy from the same psychopharmacologist/psychologist.
Everything we see, hear, touch, all the senses around us, affects our neurochemistry -- after all, neurons have sent messengers to create those senses. And in reverse, medication alters brain chemistry to the same degree. This is a very perfunctory and simplified version of psychopharmacology but similar changes have been known for years in OCD and also in depression in PET scans and CBT studies and the like.
I believe a combination of both are valuable. Some may believe that one or the other works for them, that is their choice and right.
Posted by linkadge on March 24, 2006, at 9:50:02
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry » linkadge, posted by yxibow on March 24, 2006, at 1:19:31
I guess I mean chicken/egg in the sence of questioning the origins of the illness.
Is depression due to bad chemistry, or is bad chemistry due to depression.
Linkadge
Posted by gardenergirl on March 24, 2006, at 10:38:12
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry » rjlockhart, posted by Phillipa on March 23, 2006, at 22:12:34
> no you don't have to have insurance there is always medicaid or the university doctors.
And being on his mother's insurance does not give her the right to interfere with or otherwise control his access to medical care. Anyone want to let HER know this? :)
gg
Posted by Jakeman on March 24, 2006, at 19:57:50
In reply to psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry, posted by linkadge on March 23, 2006, at 19:24:37
> http://www.medscape.com/medline/abstract/15363105
>
I could not get into that article. But I'm aware of several studies which show non-pharmacological approaches affecting brain chemistry. Psychotherapy, massage, meditation, etc.warm regards, Jake
Posted by Tony P on March 25, 2006, at 1:26:58
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry » linkadge, posted by Jakeman on March 24, 2006, at 19:57:50
Not only can various activities (psychotherapy, exercise, meditation etc.) alter brain chemistrry, it appears the brain can rewire itself remarkably quickly if the stimulus is strong enough.
I was just watching a program on PBS in which an experimental subject was blindfolded for several days and asked to learn Braille; within a couple of days, brain scans showed her visual cortex had taken over the job of processing touch information from her fingertips!
BTW, the experimenter commented that this also debunks the old notion that we only use 10% of our brains; we may not know what all of it is used for, but cerebral real estate seems to be at a premium -- any time some comes free, as in this experiment, another function takes it over.
Using 110% of my brain to write this post at 11:30 PM,
Tony
Posted by SLS on March 25, 2006, at 9:52:10
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry » linkadge, posted by Jakeman on March 24, 2006, at 19:57:50
The brain determines the mind as the mind sculpts the brain.
- Scott
Posted by yxibow on March 26, 2006, at 1:32:07
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry » yxibow, posted by linkadge on March 24, 2006, at 9:50:02
> I guess I mean chicken/egg in the sence of questioning the origins of the illness.
>
> Is depression due to bad chemistry, or is bad chemistry due to depression.
>
> LinkadgeYes. In a word. "bad chemistry" perhaps is a bit of a strong or perjorative way of viewing it -- its more "different chemistry."
Depression can be genetic, family gene linked, etc, and thus one may be born with a brain that at points in life gets triggered in a down curve -- same for anxiety disorders, etc.
In the same way, brain chemistry can be changed by things in our lives that deeply affect us, like the death of people we love, being laid off from work, being a social outcast because of some deformity or weakness -- all just examples that could lead to depression, which is altered brain chemistry, in a simplified way.
Posted by med_empowered on March 26, 2006, at 3:54:24
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry » linkadge, posted by yxibow on March 26, 2006, at 1:32:07
since I'm interested in sociology, I'm kind of disappointed that shrinks have missed chances to look at the **SOCIAL** context in which mental illnesses occur--it seems like mental health professionals prefer to look at SYMPTOMS, not the person or the social context of his/her existence. Social isolation induces stress which in turn can lead to "depression" (I think "depression" is a kind of vague term that can refer to the end result of many different stressors).
Also...if its true that the world and experience can shape and alter your brain, then maybe sociologists have been on to something all this time: maybe human's aren't as hard-wired as some would have us believe...maybe the genius in our deisgn is our plasiticity, our ability to adapt to our surroundings.
Posted by linkadge on March 26, 2006, at 16:14:58
In reply to how the world alters your brain, posted by med_empowered on March 26, 2006, at 3:54:24
What got me about the study was that we were using these drugs thinking that the way your brain handled serotonin was fixed, and the drugs were the only way to alter it.
But if this transporter can be altered by recovery itself then it makes one wonder if drugs are the best way to change ones chemistry?
Linkadge
Posted by ace on March 26, 2006, at 20:12:03
In reply to psychotherapy can alter brain chemistry, posted by linkadge on March 23, 2006, at 19:24:37
Posted by CEK on March 26, 2006, at 23:35:19
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can NOT alter brain chemistry! (nm), posted by ace on March 26, 2006, at 20:12:03
Have any of you looked into neurofeedback and what it can do?
Posted by SLS on March 27, 2006, at 6:34:29
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can NOT alter brain chemistry! (nm), posted by ace on March 26, 2006, at 20:12:03
Anything you experience in life produces changes in the brain. You know that. That's what plasticity is all about. Training the mind is the same as training the brain. Unfortunately, some brains are dysregulated in such a way as to be resistant to a psychotherapeutic approach. My thoughts on this matter are a bit more sophisticated than that, but that's the gist of it. Brain imaging seems to coroborate this notion.
- Scott
Posted by maxime on March 27, 2006, at 10:18:30
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can NOT alter brain chemistry! » ace, posted by SLS on March 27, 2006, at 6:34:29
This is true. Also, a lot happens to your brain chemistry during deep sleep (not REM).
Maxime
> Anything you experience in life produces changes in the brain. You know that. That's what plasticity is all about. Training the mind is the same as training the brain. Unfortunately, some brains are dysregulated in such a way as to be resistant to a psychotherapeutic approach. My thoughts on this matter are a bit more sophisticated than that, but that's the gist of it. Brain imaging seems to coroborate this notion.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 11:38:16
In reply to Re: psychotherapy can NOT alter brain chemistry! » SLS, posted by maxime on March 27, 2006, at 10:18:30
There have been a number of studies showing the ways that psychotherapy can alter the way that the brain works. Good psychotherapy is really about learning nondrug ways to manage your illness.
Not everbody responds fully to psychotherapy, but I don't believe there is a case where it might not offer a small bit of help.
While I am not against the use of drugs, I think it is most advenagious to keep ones mind open to all forms of healing.
I remember my first episode was brough on largely due to psychosocial stressors. When I took medication, I was able to push that notion out of my brain and convince myself that I was chemically imballenced and that was the reason I got sick.
But, because I didn't learn from my history, I repeated it over and over.
Linkadge
Posted by yxibow on March 27, 2006, at 18:43:06
In reply to Re: psychotherapy CAN alter brain chemistry!, posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 11:38:16
> There have been a number of studies showing the ways that psychotherapy can alter the way that the brain works. Good psychotherapy is really about learning nondrug ways to manage your illness.
Psychotherapy, CBT, etc all have been shown in a variety of ways including PET/SPECT exams to alter brain chemistry. I take a lions share of medication for my somatiform / OC spectrum illness but I also have a valueable relationship with a psychotherapist that has contributed a way to cope, handle, and understand the changing ways that it has gone. I am fortunate to have parents to support me in doing so, I dont think I could have gotten this far (and there is still more to go, it is partially at bay but not gone) without someone to depend on for guidance, who also is a psychopharmacologist/psychiatrist.
I also recognize that people cannot always afford it, and insurance covers little, and there are sometimes for privacy reasons that one may not want insurance to cover it.
However as they say, and has been pointed out, your miles may vary. A very nonarticulate (no fault of their own) or deeply psychotic patient or other examples one can think of without being pejorative, may not respond to it for obvious reasons. There, medication alone if it is functional, will have to serve.
Tidings
- J
Posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 19:06:54
In reply to Re: psychotherapy CAN alter brain chemistry!, posted by yxibow on March 27, 2006, at 18:43:06
Even somebody who needs medication such as a deeply psychotic individual may still benifit from therapy. It doesn't mean that it will completely suffice on its own, but it still may help. Those with schitsophrenia rarely attain complete remission with medications alone.
Linkadge
Posted by deniseuk on March 30, 2006, at 9:26:47
In reply to Re: psychotherapy CAN alter brain chemistry! » yxibow, posted by linkadge on March 27, 2006, at 19:06:54
This is slightly off the track of the thread but it really irritates me when I see all these studies on depression where they are doing more sophisticated scans like fMRIs.
Here I am 20 years of taking different medication (which I hasten to add I've been extremely grateful for) but which is doing God knows what to my brain and not once have I been offered a brain scan, I've just been offered a CT Scan but can't have an fMRI scan because they don't do them at my local hospital.
Although I know that it hasn't been proven that fMRI scans can really dedect activity in areas of the brain because increased blood flow in a certain area doesn't necessarily mean increased activity in that area but as they are using these types of scans in the studies then why aren't patients beeing given them.
I would really like to know what my brain is doing when I'm feeling suicidal pre taking a Zyprexa and after taking one when the suicidal feelings go away.Just like years ago when I couldn't quite believe how much prothiaden was helping me I really wanted to know what it was doing and why it was helping.
Maybe if I had of had scans throughout the years of being depressed and taking medication and not being depressed and then coming off medication for three years and not being depressed, then getting depressed again and taking the same medication and it not working then maybe they would have seen a pattern emerging.
It really pisses me off.
Companies are using these scans just purely for advertising reasons and to make moneyYet how many people on this board have ever even been offered a fMRI scan or a PET Scan.
Denise
This is the end of the thread.
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