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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Squiggles on March 9, 2006, at 6:31:18
In reply to Re: Clonazepam not like other benzos, posted by cecilia on March 8, 2006, at 22:19:52
> I've wondered about this too. Clonazepam was originally only approved for seizures, and later approved for panic attacks. In real life it's mainly prescribed for anxiety, doctors like it precisely because it's long half life makes it very difficult to tell if it's doing anything at all, so there's little chance of abuse. The trouble is, I really DON'T know whether it's doing anything at all. Cecilia
Heh! That's an interesting observation. It's
half-life is 15 hrs., if i remember correctly
so it is not that long; certainly much shorter
than Valium's. I don't think what is unique
about it is its half-life. The drug just doesn't
build tolerance as fast as the other benzos.Your remark about it doing anything at all
is very interesting. Is it possible that after
5-7 yrs. you have withdrawn from the stuff?
But then, that can't be possible because
try to withdraw and you will see that it has
left its indelible mark.I could ask Roche, but I don't expect an
answer based on my past communications with
pharamaceutical companies.Squiggles
Posted by cecilia on March 9, 2006, at 17:11:48
In reply to sub-therapeutic doses » cecilia, posted by Squiggles on March 9, 2006, at 6:31:18
Valium has a long half-life, but from my understanding has an initial "kick in" effect, which clonazepam for most people does not have, and which makes Valium more tempting for abusers than clonazepam. I've never abused drugs, and I've been thinking that, since no antidepressant has ever worked for me, I should give up hoping that my depression will ever be "cured" and try to focus on the one symptom that meds do have some effect for, anxiety. I really think my chronic depression is secondary to lifelong biological anxiety anyway, but I don't know whether my pdoc would be willing to let me try trials of different benzos and see if anything works better than clonazepam. He's actually pretty liberal in this regard, in addition to the clonazepam he prescribes small doses of Xanax prn, and temazepam and ambien for sleep. I had to laugh, I've been weaning off Marplan for surgery and because it didn't work, and when I went to my primary care doc for my pre- op exam she said that, even though I was almost off the Marplan, maybe it was having an effect because I seemed less anxious than on previous exams. Needless, to say, it wasn't the Marplan, I told her I'd taken a Xanax before the exam and she looked a little disappointed to see her theory blown. She's not a great believer in benzos, thank goodness for my pdoc. Re anxiety and depression, sometime I think I use anxiety to defend against depression and depression to defend against anxiety-I wonder if anyone else can relate to this. Cecilia
Posted by Squiggles on March 9, 2006, at 17:35:29
In reply to Clonazepam-Squiggles, posted by cecilia on March 9, 2006, at 17:11:48
>
Cecilia,
I think you are correct about the Valium
being immediately perceived -- this is common
with many benzos, esp. the short half-life ones
used for acute panic and anxiety such as
Xanax. The clonazepam is very strange that
way -- hardly felt; however in my case I did
feel a bit low and heavy with breathing congested
when i first took it. That went away soon...........
Valium more tempting for abusers than clonazepam. I've never abused drugs,.............
however, I don't believe that Valium is why this
drug is manufactured with a kick in mind that
will make people prefer it and get addicted;
as i said earlier, clonazepam is preferred for epilepsy and its tolerance rate is much different than all other benzos. However, it is almost impossible to withdraw from imho.and I've been thinking that, since no antidepressant has ever worked for me, I should give up hoping that my depression will ever be "cured" and try to focus on the one symptom that meds do have some effect for, anxiety.
............
Anxiety often comes with depression. The fact
that antidepressants have not worked for you,
may mean that they are the wrong antidepressants
or you are not properly diagnosed.I really think my chronic depression is secondary to lifelong biological anxiety anyway, but I don't know whether my pdoc would be willing to let me try trials of different benzos and see if anything works better than clonazepam.
..........
You can always find out the hard way; i.e.
don't take antidepressants, take only the benzos
and see what happens, but *do* have a handy
dr. or emergency number near by, just in case
you are wrong.............
He's actually pretty liberal in this regard, in addition to the clonazepam he prescribes small doses of Xanax prn, and temazepam and ambien for sleep. I had to laugh, I've been weaning off Marplan for surgery and because it didn't work, and when I went to my primary care doc for my pre- op exam she said that, even though I was almost off the Marplan, maybe it was having an effect because I seemed less anxious than on previous exams. Needless, to say, it wasn't the Marplan, I told her I'd taken a Xanax before the exam and she looked a little disappointed to see her theory blown. She's not a great believer in benzos, thank goodness for my pdoc. Re anxiety and depression, sometime I think I use anxiety to defend against depression and depression to defend against anxiety-I wonder if anyone else can relate to this.
............
Benzos have their proper place in treatment --
they have to be used right. I recall coming
out of surgery, and I was having Xanax withdrawal
because it was a long operation. It was
embarrassing to hear myself pleading for
Xanax from the nurse. They are addicting.
No doubt about it.
As for your personal dx, I think it's good
to be monitored for your hypothesis.Take care
Squiggles
Posted by tizza on March 9, 2006, at 23:39:05
In reply to Clonazepam-Squiggles, posted by cecilia on March 9, 2006, at 17:11:48
> Valium has a long half-life, but from my understanding has an initial "kick in" effect, which clonazepam for most people does not have, and which makes Valium more tempting for abusers than clonazepam. I've never abused drugs, and I've been thinking that, since no antidepressant has ever worked for me, I should give up hoping that my depression will ever be "cured" and try to focus on the one symptom that meds do have some effect for, anxiety. I really think my chronic depression is secondary to lifelong biological anxiety anyway, but I don't know whether my pdoc would be willing to let me try trials of different benzos and see if anything works better than clonazepam. He's actually pretty liberal in this regard, in addition to the clonazepam he prescribes small doses of Xanax prn, and temazepam and ambien for sleep. I had to laugh, I've been weaning off Marplan for surgery and because it didn't work, and when I went to my primary care doc for my pre- op exam she said that, even though I was almost off the Marplan, maybe it was having an effect because I seemed less anxious than on previous exams. Needless, to say, it wasn't the Marplan, I told her I'd taken a Xanax before the exam and she looked a little disappointed to see her theory blown. She's not a great believer in benzos, thank goodness for my pdoc. Re anxiety and depression, sometime I think I use anxiety to defend against depression and depression to defend against anxiety-I wonder if anyone else can relate to this. Cecilia
*Re anxiety and depression, sometime I think I use anxiety to defend against depression and depression to defend against anxiety-I wonder if anyone else can relate to this.*
I hear you loud and clear but I had a hell of a kick from clonazepam as soon as I started taking it. For me Valium's a softer ride so I went back to it after taking clonazepam for about 3 months. It's all I will take now with the exception of nitrazepam for sleep. I have abused xanax in the past (a very long time ago) and I found that clonazepam had this potential for me also but I don't get this with Valium. Paul
Posted by cecilia on March 10, 2006, at 1:58:38
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles » cecilia, posted by Squiggles on March 9, 2006, at 17:35:29
It's not a question of trying it the hard way, I've never had any antidepressant give me any benefit whatsoever (and I've tried virtually every one, after Emsam I really can't think of anything else to try (and I suspect the Emsam will just increase my anxiety). I've been on clonazepam (just 1 to 1.5 mg/day) for nearly 6 years and I really don't know if it does anything, but at least it doesn't have the side effects most AD's do. I save the prn Xanax for particularly stressful occasions like doctor's visits (terrifying to me). It's the only psychotropic drug (besides sleeping pills) that I've ever felt had any benefit, and it certainly doesn't eliminate the anxiety, just lowers it a notch. But I can't even really understand the concept of AD's, frankly, I can't imagine what it would feel like to not be depressed. Cecilia
Posted by Squiggles on March 10, 2006, at 6:39:56
In reply to Re: Clonazepam- » cecilia, posted by tizza on March 9, 2006, at 23:39:05
Chacun a son gout; i find clonazepam
imperceptible unless i try to quit or
raise the dose. I took Valium a very
long time ago and it was very obvious
to me that I was drugged - I didn't like
it.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on March 10, 2006, at 6:42:38
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles, posted by cecilia on March 10, 2006, at 1:58:38
Are you saying that you are presently
depressed but do not want to take ADs?
And what is Epsam - sorry maybe it's
early for me.Squiggles
Posted by tizza on March 10, 2006, at 7:54:15
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles, posted by cecilia on March 10, 2006, at 1:58:38
> It's not a question of trying it the hard way, I've never had any antidepressant give me any benefit whatsoever (and I've tried virtually every one, after Emsam I really can't think of anything else to try (and I suspect the Emsam will just increase my anxiety). I've been on clonazepam (just 1 to 1.5 mg/day) for nearly 6 years and I really don't know if it does anything, but at least it doesn't have the side effects most AD's do. I save the prn Xanax for particularly stressful occasions like doctor's visits (terrifying to me). It's the only psychotropic drug (besides sleeping pills) that I've ever felt had any benefit, and it certainly doesn't eliminate the anxiety, just lowers it a notch. But I can't even really understand the concept of AD's, frankly, I can't imagine what it would feel like to not be depressed. Cecilia
I have tried heaps of AD's too, to no avail but benzo's seem to work for me. If I feel like I'm sliding back into another depression I just up my dose of Valium and it seems to keep it in check, it's just weird how differently we all react. I hate this ride I want to get off.
Posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2006, at 14:40:34
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles, posted by tizza on March 10, 2006, at 7:54:15
Hi P
What dose of diazepam do you take?
ED
Posted by tizza on March 10, 2006, at 18:09:23
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles » tizza, posted by ed_uk on March 10, 2006, at 14:40:34
Med wise I'm basically down to 5mg of diazepam every second day or day if needed and nitrazepam a few times a week for sleep and that's it now. Almost med free and feeling ok, had a few weird patches lately but getting on top of them. Paul
Posted by cecilia on March 10, 2006, at 19:37:14
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles » cecilia, posted by Squiggles on March 10, 2006, at 6:42:38
> Are you saying that you are presently
> depressed but do not want to take ADs?
> And what is Epsam - sorry maybe it's
> early for me.
>
> SquigglesI have been depressed my whole life. It's not that I don't want to take AD's, I've already tried them all and none work for me. Emsam is the new patch MAOI recently approved, I'll give it a try when it becomes available, but the chances of it working when nothing else ever have seem virtually nil. Cecilia
Posted by Squiggles on March 10, 2006, at 19:45:50
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles, posted by cecilia on March 10, 2006, at 19:37:14
> I have been depressed my whole life. It's not that I don't want to take AD's, I've already tried them all and none work for me. Emsam is the new patch MAOI recently approved, I'll give it a try when it becomes available, but the chances of it working when nothing else ever have seem virtually nil. CeciliaNot quite nil; my sympathy -- it must be
very exhausting to go through drug after
drug with little treatment of depression.
I hope the MAOI works. BTW, Dr. Ivan Goldberg's
specialty is treatment-resistant depression:http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.html
maybe you can get some ideas from him.
Squiggles
Posted by ed_uk on March 11, 2006, at 12:44:17
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles » ed_uk, posted by tizza on March 10, 2006, at 18:09:23
Hi Paul
So you take diazepam on alternate days? Do you find it better to take it this way?
Regards
Ed
Posted by Squiggles on March 11, 2006, at 12:49:47
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles, posted by ed_uk on March 11, 2006, at 12:44:17
I find it really important to
take drugs regularly (on the dot)
to maintain stabilty. I don't if
it's because of *my* drugs or just
a general rule of thumb. I get
nasty effects if I make a mistake
or forget.Squiggles
Posted by tizza on March 11, 2006, at 17:47:26
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles, posted by ed_uk on March 11, 2006, at 12:44:17
at the moment I'm not but I can when I'm not feeling too anxious, It works fine for me to be able to take it every second day because it has such a long half life
Posted by KarenRB53 on March 11, 2006, at 19:46:34
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles » ed_uk, posted by tizza on March 11, 2006, at 17:47:26
I'm finding that even .025 every night is bringing me down. This is a very low dosage so should it have that much of an effect?
Thanks, Karen
Posted by tizza on March 11, 2006, at 23:32:23
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles, posted by KarenRB53 on March 11, 2006, at 19:46:34
> I'm finding that even .025 every night is bringing me down. This is a very low dosage so should it have that much of an effect?
> Thanks, KarenI personally found clonazepam a very powerful benzo but it didn't make me depressed, I don't think that Valium has the same potential for depression as clonezapam does. Paul
Posted by KarenRB53 on March 12, 2006, at 7:36:01
In reply to Re: Clonazepam » KarenRB53, posted by tizza on March 11, 2006, at 23:32:23
I have used Ativan in the past but my doctor wanted me to use Clonazepam because of its longer half life there are no ups and downs. I also have Bipolar2 and use Prozac. Maybe its just my particular chemistry????
Posted by ed_uk on March 12, 2006, at 9:13:58
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles » ed_uk, posted by tizza on March 11, 2006, at 17:47:26
Hi P
I wonder whether it would work better if you took a 2mg tablet daily, rather than a 5mg tablet on alternate days? It might not, just a thought :)
Regards
Ed
Posted by tizza on March 13, 2006, at 1:14:57
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles » tizza, posted by ed_uk on March 12, 2006, at 9:13:58
> Hi P
>
> I wonder whether it would work better if you took a 2mg tablet daily, rather than a 5mg tablet on alternate days? It might not, just a thought :)
>
> Regards
>
> Ed
>
> Hey Ed, I'm seeing my pdoc on thursday, I'll discuss it with him, but on the other hand I can just break a 5mg Valium in half when I don't need a whole one and I do this alot. By the way have you ever tried Provigil? I have had EDS for years but didn't know there was anything for it except amphetimine based drugs but I hear it can increase anxiety and I don't need that but another point which is quite weird is the fact that amphetimine drugs don't give me anxiety. Paul
Posted by Squiggles on March 13, 2006, at 7:37:08
In reply to Re: Clonazepam » ed_uk, posted by tizza on March 13, 2006, at 1:14:57
I'm just coming out of this now. I cut
1/3 of a 300 lithium cap 2x a couple
of weeks ago, because i thought my li
level was rising. Bad mistake.In going back to the same dose, every lithium
cap brought on dyspnea and chest pain,
"air hunger" that kind of thing.This has happened over and over again.
I won't do it again, but I wish I knew
what was going on.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on March 13, 2006, at 9:10:44
In reply to slammerino, posted by Squiggles on March 13, 2006, at 7:37:08
Because drs. have not found anything
wrong with my heart or lungs, i thought
i might consider the "PACO2" gas exchanges
in the blood. It occurred to me that
we have a large hole leading to the basement from
which a gas or gasoline fume comes up
in the laundry room constantly -- we have a very old house. It could be that the gas exchange
in my lungs is affected and has become more
sensitive to hyperventilation.- i taped it -
Squiggles
Posted by ed_uk on March 13, 2006, at 12:54:43
In reply to Re: Clonazepam » ed_uk, posted by tizza on March 13, 2006, at 1:14:57
Hi Paul
>I can just break a 5mg Valium in half when I don't need a whole one and I do this alot
That's very true :)
>By the way have you ever tried Provigil?
I have. I wasn't impressed. It didn't increase alertness at all. After a few days I started feeling a bit depressed. Some people love Provigil though :)
>another point which is quite weird is the fact that amphetimine drugs don't give me anxiety
That's not unusual. A few people actually feel less anxious on amphetamines - more confident.
Kind regards
Ed
Posted by Squiggles on March 13, 2006, at 14:44:25
In reply to slammerino p.s. » Squiggles, posted by Squiggles on March 13, 2006, at 9:10:44
I'm stabilized now. It was very
painful - like a heart attack.
I imagine that if this is what
people feel when they take lithium
it may be the reason that it is not
as popular as I think it is. But
I think if my doc. gave me 150mg caps
6x times per day, instead of 300mg
3x per day, this may not happen.Squiggles
Posted by Squiggles on March 14, 2006, at 11:20:30
In reply to Stabilized after 30% cut (re: slammerino), posted by Squiggles on March 13, 2006, at 14:44:25
Still stabilizing actually; either
the lithium dropped and the reinstatement
hit me hard, or the reistatement left
some damage - pulminary/cardia from which
i am recovering, i am not sure - it's hard.
Squiggles - feeling less *ucking indestructible;
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