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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by SLS on March 5, 2006, at 10:38:18
The truth about "depression" is that it is but one word used to describe countless individual experiences.
What does "depression" mean to you?
I think there is much wasted energy and hurt feelings in arguing about the "truth" regarding depression because there are so many different people defining that one word using their own subjective experiences as the basis for its identification.
For example, I am defined as being severely depressed although "depressed mood" is not one of the symptoms I display. It might sound paradoxical or nonsensical, but it's the truth.
- Scott
Posted by Maxime on March 5, 2006, at 13:43:12
In reply to The TRUTH about depression..., posted by SLS on March 5, 2006, at 10:38:18
You are so right Scott. And I am like you, I don't display all the symptoms either which makes it hard for me to convince pdocs that I am severely depressed!
MAxime
> The truth about "depression" is that it is but one word used to describe countless individual experiences.
>
> What does "depression" mean to you?
>
> I think there is much wasted energy and hurt feelings in arguing about the "truth" regarding depression because there are so many different people defining that one word using their own subjective experiences as the basis for its identification.
>
> For example, I am defined as being severely depressed although "depressed mood" is not one of the symptoms I display. It might sound paradoxical or nonsensical, but it's the truth.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by ed_uk on March 5, 2006, at 14:18:54
In reply to Re: The TRUTH about depression..., posted by Maxime on March 5, 2006, at 13:43:12
Well said Scott. Certain babblers have a tendency to extrapolate their own experiences to other people with very different problems.
Ed
Posted by SLS on March 5, 2006, at 14:21:28
In reply to Re: The TRUTH about depression..., posted by ed_uk on March 5, 2006, at 14:18:54
> Certain babblers have a tendency to extrapolate their own experiences to other people with very different problems.
Including me!
:-)
I do try to be aware of it, though.
Practice, practice, practice.
- Scott
Posted by pseudoname on March 5, 2006, at 15:00:17
In reply to The TRUTH about depression..., posted by SLS on March 5, 2006, at 10:38:18
Ed said people sometimes “extrapolate their own experiences to other people with very different problems.”
I think this can be true even in the same person with his different symptoms.
Scott just asked me in another thread to describe my depression and if my med helps with all its symptoms.
Those were hard questions (but good). I think there are three different things going on inside me and I label all three of them “depression.” But they go up & down independently. I have no idea if they’re physiologically related.
And by calling all of them “depression”, I can get confused about what works and what doesn’t, even for myself.
Posted by linkadge on March 5, 2006, at 16:52:17
In reply to depression*s*, plural, posted by pseudoname on March 5, 2006, at 15:00:17
Very good points.
Linkadge
Posted by pseudoname on March 5, 2006, at 17:26:06
In reply to Re: depression*s*, plural, posted by linkadge on March 5, 2006, at 16:52:17
Posted by Racer on March 5, 2006, at 17:52:55
In reply to Re: depression*s*, plural, posted by linkadge on March 5, 2006, at 16:52:17
I've said it before, and believe it to my bones: Major Depressive Disorder is diagnosed based on a cluster of symptoms, but there's no evidence that those symptoms are caused by the same thing. I'd bet that there are dozens of actual underlying etiologies, and that that explains some of the differences in the way we respond to various drugs.
Scott, as usual, you've come up with a thought-provoking point, and I thank you.
Posted by Declan on March 5, 2006, at 18:47:35
In reply to What a great thread, posted by Racer on March 5, 2006, at 17:52:55
My doctor told me that in the next DSM they are going to get all the depression subtypes out and put them into character disorders or somesuch, leaving just the retarded depression, I guess. I don't know where the dividing line is between ordinary human unhappiness (whatever that is) and depression. You would have seen those Buddhist thankas, I think they are called, with the images of Kali and all the skulls and blood symbolising the violence in our minds. And all the medieval art of suffering. Yeah, I dunno.
Peace to everyone
Declan
Posted by Phillipa on March 5, 2006, at 20:14:04
In reply to Re: What a great thread, posted by Declan on March 5, 2006, at 18:47:35
I'll start. Sad, no hope, excessive sleep, seeing no point in getting up, no enjoyment in the things I used to enjoy, no interest in sex, no appetite, low self-esteem, fear of the craziest things like going out. Constant tiredness. I'll think of more later but that's a start. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by FredPotter on March 5, 2006, at 21:49:54
In reply to Re: What a great thread, posted by Phillipa on March 5, 2006, at 20:14:04
> I'll start. Sad, no hope, excessive sleep, seeing no point in getting up, no enjoyment in the things I used to enjoy, no interest in sex, no appetite, low self-esteem, fear of the craziest things like going out. Constant tiredness. I'll think of more later but that's a start. Fondly, Phillipa
Hey Phillipa that's pretty much me too. Plus an irritating ability to appear cheerful when questioned by a doctor. On the other hand I have considerable periods when I'm ecstatically happy. I don't do anything silly so I hesitate to call it mania. Just deep one-ness with the universe sort of thing. I wouldn't like to live without that, having tasted it
Fred
Posted by Racer on March 5, 2006, at 23:00:13
In reply to Re: What a great thread, posted by FredPotter on March 5, 2006, at 21:49:54
> >
>
> Plus an irritating ability to appear cheerful when questioned by a doctor.You know, I've had that experience, too, and put it down to that surge of hope that something will help, combined with the benefit of having something to do. Since I often don't leave the house, having something to do gets enough umph going for me, that it makes me look much better.
Plus, of course, that socialization that anyone saying, "How are you?" is only being polite, and doesn't really want to know...
Posted by gibber on March 5, 2006, at 23:14:41
In reply to Re: What a great thread, posted by FredPotter on March 5, 2006, at 21:49:54
I know about the oneness with the universe thing. Earlier on my depression I would have these breakthrough moments (usually when I was playing music). I would be flying high (not manic) and think I would never be depressed again, but within a few hours I was back to normal and then a day later I would fall into an abyss. The SSRIs all seemed to stop these moments from happening which was a blessing and a curse. You know, what comes up must come down. ALthough I loved these "great moments" I would probably trade it for some consistent peace of mind and creativity. No doubt the high moments produced great creativity but I don't think mentally healthy people experience those things. In the last few years those swings or highs occur less frequently. After I saw "Brokeback Mountain" I was sobbing in car ride home and sort of felt enlightened. On another note I've been dealing with this so long that I'm good at hiding my symptoms. No one would know unless I told them.
Posted by TylerJ on March 6, 2006, at 19:14:21
In reply to Re: The TRUTH about depression..., posted by SLS on March 5, 2006, at 14:21:28
> > Certain babblers have a tendency to extrapolate their own experiences to other people with very different problems.
>
> Including me!
>
> :-)
>
> I do try to be aware of it, though.
>
> Practice, practice, practice.
>
>
> - Scott
You are right again Scott ...I know of such Babblers, and it's sad because even though they may have brilliant minds, I think their dogmatic *opinions* are confusing a lot of very vulnerable and suffering people that need hope, direction, and encouragement...Not some know it all egomaniac telling them that the drug they just started a week ago will not work! Why?...because it didn't work for them-UGH!!!!Tyler
Posted by fires on March 6, 2006, at 19:38:49
In reply to The TRUTH about depression..., posted by SLS on March 5, 2006, at 10:38:18
> The truth about "depression" is that it is but one word used to describe countless individual experiences.
>
> What does "depression" mean to you?
Much worse than dysthymia. Must meet the following criteria (mine):Therapy is worthless, even CBT.
Severe anhedonia.
Very sudden onset(possibly dysthymic for some time before).
Not related to any life events.
NO feelings of worthlessness. Some guilt, but not worse than that with any other illness.
Inability to drive a car.
Psychomotor retardation mod. to severe.
Inability to hide it from others. Others look at you and think OMG. If your pdoc has only seen you when dysthymic he things OMG.
Memory very poor.Trouble speaking with normal volume. Hand gestures and head shaking used in place of speech.
Posted by pseudoname on March 6, 2006, at 19:49:02
In reply to Re: The TRUTH about depression... » SLS, posted by fires on March 6, 2006, at 19:38:49
> Inability to drive a car.
> Psychomotor retardation mod. to severe.I had forgotten about psychomotor retardation. I get that bigtime.
Even when I'm driving. I go 30 in a 45 zone and *can't* go any faster. The car gets depression with me.
Posted by Cairo on March 6, 2006, at 22:11:54
In reply to Re: The TRUTH about depression... » SLS, posted by fires on March 6, 2006, at 19:38:49
Anhedonia.
Mood reactivity.
Inability to handle stress.
Addisonian-like features.
Irritability.
Hyperphagia.
Feelings of detachment.
Poor memory.
Poor sleep maintenance.I'd also like to add endless lists of things to do and constant distractions to avoid that feeling of not really being there. Responding in a happy way naturally, but not really being happy. Thinking about thinking about what it would be like to not be here.
I agree with multiple etiologies and presentations. There doesn't seem to be a neurotransmitter left that I haven't tried tweaking with medications. I'm waiting for what they haven't yet discovered. I wish I could get rid of ALL my stress for one year, then maybe I could find a way out of this.
Cairo
Posted by Chairman_MAO on March 7, 2006, at 10:53:25
In reply to Re: The TRUTH about depression..., posted by TylerJ on March 6, 2006, at 19:14:21
It is impossible for anyone not to allow their own personality and life experiences to influence their perception of the world. This is especially true insofar as mental health and psychoanalysis is concerned. This is *NOT* merely _MY_ opinion. See:
"Faces in a Cloud," by Rutgers University psychology professor and clinician George Atwood and Robert Stolorow. In this watershed work the authors examine intersubjectivity in psychoanalysis and personality theory. A must-read perspective on Freud, Reich, and others.
Posted by TylerJ on March 7, 2006, at 11:51:19
In reply to Re: The TRUTH about depression... » TylerJ, posted by Chairman_MAO on March 7, 2006, at 10:53:25
> It is impossible for anyone not to allow their own personality and life experiences to influence their perception of the world. This is especially true insofar as mental health and psychoanalysis is concerned. This is *NOT* merely _MY_ opinion. See:
>
> "Faces in a Cloud," by Rutgers University psychology professor and clinician George Atwood and Robert Stolorow. In this watershed work the authors examine intersubjectivity in psychoanalysis and personality theory. A must-read perspective on Freud, Reich, and others.
------------------------
I wasn't talking about you Chairman...I was thinking of someone else, but I will not mention the name. You are extremely knowlegableable when it comes to Psychopharmacology and I respect your opinion very much, and I don't feel that you would try to discourage people by saying that the drug they are on doesn't work. They all work..but they don't all work for EVERYBODY, wouldn't you agree? I feel that all patients have a right and responsibility to know why they are taking a drug, whether other options are available, and what the risks are. A fully informed patient is usually a doc's ally, not an enemy! I think most pdoc's make decisions based largely on a combination of clinical lore, experience, and intuition. In only a few instances do they have scientifically indisputable facts on which they can rely on. The pros and cons for the use of meds in psychiatry are not absolutely clear or agreed upon, strong arguments have arison on all sides.Tyler
P.S. I know that you know a lot about MAOI's. Parnate works really well for me...however I want to be prepared with many augmentation strategies if needed. Could you please give me some information about Parnate augmentation agents? The more the better. :) The only thing my doc will not even consider is stimulants. Thanks.
Posted by Declan on March 8, 2006, at 0:36:38
In reply to Re: What a great thread » FredPotter, posted by Racer on March 5, 2006, at 23:00:13
Did Thomas Hobbes say that fear was man's natural state? It's certainly mine. So I try to please and generally lose myself. When that doesn't work I resent as openly as I dare.
I'd give a lot to escape this ambivalence and alienation (There always seems to be something wrong and it always feels like it's my fault). I've just read "All Quiet On The Western Front" and was very affected by the tenderness expressed in it.
Declan
Posted by Sobriquet Style on March 8, 2006, at 7:56:52
In reply to The TRUTH about depression..., posted by SLS on March 5, 2006, at 10:38:18
Probably also worth mentioning the Truth about Remission and/or recovery from depression.
One mans cure, could well be another mans illness.
When we speak about how a drug "works" for someone, what exactly are we saying by work?
Does it mean you can continue to work full-time in a professional career?
Does it mean you can continue to work part-time in a basic job?
Does it mean you can study?
Does it mean you can get out of bed and have a shower every day?
Does it keep you out of being an in-patient hospital?
Does it mean that you can go shopping?
Does it mean you can do any of the above whilst still mataining relationships and a social life?
So many variables.
~
Posted by Squiggles on March 8, 2006, at 9:02:14
In reply to The TRUTH about depression..., posted by SLS on March 5, 2006, at 10:38:18
I look forward to the day when medicine
has finally correlated the physical signs
with the behavioural symptoms of depression.
Such correlations now exist in medical
texts for diseases such as diabetes,
hypothyroidism, meningitis, brain tumour,
and an endless list of neurological and
hormonal disorders. In these cases, though
there are behavioural parallels to the
disease, doctors do not become bamboozled
by the number of synonyms describing them.
Nor do they rely on the numerous behavioural symptoms alone and the Thesaurus to diagnose
them.Squiggles
Posted by challenged on March 10, 2006, at 1:10:40
In reply to Re: The TRUTH about depression..., posted by Cairo on March 6, 2006, at 22:11:54
Absolutely, one of the most interesting threads yet.....I do believe however if The philosophical study of causation or etiologies, if you will, of depression could be disected individually and behaviorally speaking, I do believe that we all would be provided or experiencing a much more ('comfy') physical well-being or relief......and maybe even afforded a much needed peace of mind, free from stress. A feeling that is conducive to mental ease for lengthy periods without meds, now that would be nice too!!
I just can relate to so many of you here and have read nearly all about the 'truth about depression'.
I happen to be experiencing some of my darkest days right now and need to be where there is an intuitive awareness around me in what I feel to be a general atmosphere having a common ground . Am alone with no-one to talk to and feel as though I have friends here who at least feel somewhat the same or at the very least are willing to understand my tears. I absolutely cannot answer someone when they ask me why I am crying? What is wrong with you? Hate that question! It is usually one that an answer is not wanted back anyway. Don't call me is what I want to say.
I spend most of my time alone ......But to define how I hide my depression would be simple. I can enter a room full of strangers to each other. But before I left I would make sure no-one would be a stranger to one another. I have been told I am the life of the party. I make people laugh and enjoy themselves. I guess I wear a great mask. Don't frequent a gathering much anymore! Drains me.....
Nettie
Posted by Squiggles on March 10, 2006, at 6:33:07
In reply to Re: The TRUTH about depression..., posted by challenged on March 10, 2006, at 1:10:40
You don't have to know everything
about the mind/body dichotomy or
parallelism to follow your doctor's
advice. I know that scepticism is
inevitable in psychiatry. But you
will most likely feel better if you
take an antidepressant. That has
been my experience from the school of
hard knocks.
.../Squiggles"A true medicine is a chemical which cures
you even when you don't believe in it."- Martin "G"
Posted by challenged on March 11, 2006, at 15:44:26
In reply to Re: Clonazepam-Squiggles » challenged, posted by Squiggles on March 10, 2006, at 6:33:07
> You don't have to know everything
> about the mind/body dichotomy or
> parallelism to follow your doctor's
> advice. I know that scepticism is
> inevitable in psychiatry. But you
> will most likely feel better if you
> take an antidepressant. That has
> been my experience from the school of
> hard knocks.
>
>
> .../Squiggles
>
> "A true medicine is a chemical which cures
> you even when you don't believe in it."
>
> - Martin "G"
Hello,Words of wisdom and I thank you Squiggles (cute name)......I am in no way being dogmatical about a true medicine and its chemical cure ....I also take wellbutrin for my depression along with topamax. Appreciate your responding. Truely helpfull ....... Taken a few hard knocks myself..... Again thanks!
Nettie
>
This is the end of the thread.
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