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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 34. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Paulbwell on February 6, 2006, at 2:32:59
I'v been having having sleep troubles lately, even 20-30mgs Valium+a few Vodkas won't solve for long )maybe a few hours) so..
MANY folks here have reported that the sleep medication 'Nembutal', gave them THE BEST sleep ever (jerrympls?).
I know that it's no longer available, but AME SANS VIE-who many here know, (who seems to get whatever he wants/needs), has reported that 'Tuinal'=Seconal+amytal Caps are his most effective sleep aid, after winding down from a day of 3 Dexedrine 15mg Spans+20-60mgs Methamphetamine tabs is the most effective sleep aid, and believe me, he has tried em all, even Seconal=100mg Secobarbital Sodium Caps (the gift of sleep-r) which did not work for him!!
Has anyone lay there after taking loads of benzos, and not had sleep come?
Any Barbiturate users? comments appreciated!
Cheers
Posted by yxibow on February 6, 2006, at 2:55:14
In reply to Sleep troubles!-Barbiyurates? Seconal Tuinal? Amy?, posted by Paulbwell on February 6, 2006, at 2:32:59
> I'v been having having sleep troubles lately, even 20-30mgs Valium+a few Vodkas won't solve for long )maybe a few hours) so..
DO NOT take benzodiazepines, no matter how many mgs or varieties with any alcohol as a chacer. That accentuates the benzodiazepine tendency to depress the lung and can kill. I know, I take far, far more Valium than you do, and I wait a period of time before consuming any alcohol. I can't believe I'm even typing this sentence.
Barbiturates are incredibly dangerous if you're doing the above phenomenon. Instead of being in a hospital with an IV from benzos, you'd have an epitaph. Barbiturates + alcohol = death. I also can't believe I'm typing this sentence.
The best medications for sleep are the ones designed especially for them, namely Ambien/Ambien CR and Lunesta, and can be taken for long periods of time. I know, I'm an insomniac, I take Ambien at 15-20mg. You would probably need Lunesta at its maximum of 3mg.
The only benzodiazepine I would recommend, and it doesn't give good REM sleep like the pseudobenzodiazepines I mentioned, is Restoril. And one can become accustomed to it far too easily .
Posted by Paulbwell on February 6, 2006, at 4:03:14
In reply to Re: Sleep troubles!-Barbiyurates? Seconal Tuinal? » Paulbwell, posted by yxibow on February 6, 2006, at 2:55:14
> > I'v been having having sleep troubles lately, even 20-30mgs Valium+a few Vodkas won't solve for long )maybe a few hours) so..
>
> DO NOT take benzodiazepines, no matter how many mgs or varieties with any alcohol as a chacer. That accentuates the benzodiazepine tendency to depress the lung and can kill. I know, I take far, far more Valium than you do, and I wait a period of time before consuming any alcohol. I can't believe I'm even typing this sentence.
>
> Barbiturates are incredibly dangerous if you're doing the above phenomenon. Instead of being in a hospital with an IV from benzos, you'd have an epitaph. Barbiturates + alcohol = death. I also can't believe I'm typing this sentence.
>
> The best medications for sleep are the ones designed especially for them, namely Ambien/Ambien CR and Lunesta, and can be taken for long periods of time. I know, I'm an insomniac, I take Ambien at 15-20mg. You would probably need Lunesta at its maximum of 3mg.
>
> The only benzodiazepine I would recommend, and it doesn't give good REM sleep like the pseudobenzodiazepines I mentioned, is Restoril. And one can become accustomed to it far too easily .
Thanks for your somewhat disagreeable post!I wonder how much Valium you take, i was last week given double the PcDoc scripted dose by my friendly Pharmacist:)
I have combined Alcohol with Diazepam, Clonazepam, Alprazolam, before, and had no probs, in fact it potentiates the Valium, allowing me to take a lower dose!
I have NEVER taken a Barbiturate, but from what i have read you have to take, like 30 Nembutals, 50 Seconals, 70+ Amytals to do you know what. This is of course without Ethanol.
Cheers
Posted by blueberry on February 6, 2006, at 6:08:41
In reply to Sleep troubles!-Barbiyurates? Seconal Tuinal? Amy?, posted by Paulbwell on February 6, 2006, at 2:32:59
Doxepin 5mg to 25mg. Other options in that class would include low dose trimiprimine or elavil. People report using these for long periods of time for good sleep and few or no side effects at the low doses. In sleep studies they also improve sleep architecture, except for elavil. A side benefit of doxepin, mentioned in a report by Dr Cheney, is that is protects the brain cells from excitotoxicity cell damange. Mileage varies of course.
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 6, 2006, at 10:14:04
In reply to Sleep troubles!-Barbiyurates? Seconal Tuinal? Amy?, posted by Paulbwell on February 6, 2006, at 2:32:59
> I'v been having having sleep troubles lately, even 20-30mgs Valium+a few Vodkas won't solve for long )maybe a few hours) so..
>
> MANY folks here have reported that the sleep medication 'Nembutal', gave them THE BEST sleep ever (jerrympls?).
>
> I know that it's no longer available, but AME SANS VIE-who many here know, (who seems to get whatever he wants/needs), has reported that 'Tuinal'=Seconal+amytal Caps are his most effective sleep aid, after winding down from a day of 3 Dexedrine 15mg Spans+20-60mgs Methamphetamine tabs is the most effective sleep aid, and believe me, he has tried em all, even Seconal=100mg Secobarbital Sodium Caps (the gift of sleep-r) which did not work for him!!
>
> Has anyone lay there after taking loads of benzos, and not had sleep come?
>
> Any Barbiturate users? comments appreciated!
>
> CheersMy first choice sleep aid is Restoril (temazepam), which after years of use, has a somewhat variable, but still beneficial, sleep inductive effect. To that base drug, I am occasionally forced to add either of 10 mg Doxepin, or 25 mg trimipramine (Surmontil), taken one hour before laying to rest. In recent weeks, however, I have discovered that oral cannabis has had a demonstrably restorative effect on my sleep. I now sleep like a log. I have not "logged" it in many years. Your brain may vary.
Lar
Posted by ed_uk on February 6, 2006, at 12:36:20
In reply to Re: Sleep troubles!-Barbiyurates? Seconal Tuinal? Amy? » Paulbwell, posted by Larry Hoover on February 6, 2006, at 10:14:04
Hi Paul
Sodium Amytal, Amytal, Seconal Sodium and Tuinal are all effective hypnotics, but tolerance develops rapidly, often within 14 days. They are most suitable for very short term use ie. a few days only. The barbiturates are particularly suitable for the short term treatment of severe insomnia in hospitalised psych patients who are suffering from severe anxiety.
Seconal Sodium induces sleep very rapidly, often within 10-15 minutes. Sodium Amytal doesn't work as quickly: 30-45 minutes. Amytal takes longer than Sodium Amytal, more like 45-60 minutes.
Do take care with the benzo + alcohol combinations btw. I once took a high dose of diazepam with a very LARGE quantity of Vodka. Needless to say I passed out and vomited. Thankfully I had someone to look after me.
Combining alcohol with barbiturates is very dangerous. The barbiturates are much less forgiving than the benzos. You may find yourself in a coma.
>I'v been having having sleep troubles lately
Try to avoid Ritalin late in the day ;-) OK?!
>other sleep aids
Mirtazapine <15mg is very effective. Shame about the weight gain. Short term/intermittent use shouldn't be too much of a problem though. I find mirtazapine very effective for inducing and maintaining sleep. Zopiclone and zolpidem are also useful hypnotics. Temazepam probably won't work for you since you're already on diazepam.
Regards
Ed
Posted by rjlockhart on February 6, 2006, at 13:12:55
In reply to Re: Sleep troubles!-Barbiyurates? Seconal Tuinal? Amy? » Paulbwell, posted by Larry Hoover on February 6, 2006, at 10:14:04
Temazepam is very helpful for sleep for me.
I take 30mg nightly with 2mg of clonazepam.
Cheers
Matt
Posted by yxibow on February 6, 2006, at 16:21:42
In reply to Re: Sleep troubles!-Barbiturates? Seconal Tuinal? » yxibow, posted by Paulbwell on February 6, 2006, at 4:03:14
> Thanks for your somewhat disagreeable post!It wasn't meant to be personal or aggressive3, it was to look after your health.
>
> I wonder how much Valium you take, i was last week given double the PcDoc scripted dose by my friendly Pharmacist:)What a friendly pharmacist :) Lets just say I take a high dose that I have to be careful while driving and operating power tools, for a very complex disorder that is potentiated partially by GABA.
>
> I have combined Alcohol with Diazepam, Clonazepam, Alprazolam, before, and had no probs, in fact it potentiates the Valium, allowing me to take a lower dose!You're exactly right, it does potentiate the dose, because both drugs are CNS depressants. I'm not advocating being a teetotaler but I would strongly discourage using the alcohol as an adjunctive sleep agent. One, the alcohol gives a hangover and doesnt potentiate REM sleep. Two, the above phenomenon I mentioned -- the more the benzodiazepine you take, the greater the chance of respiratory depression. So the alcohol is like doubling this. The benzodiazepines relax smooth muscle tissue, and that includes your lung, which one assumes would want to continue operating.
I've also taken alcohol with benzodiazepines, but I dont take it right afterwards, because the benzodiazepine has peaked then. Everyone in (well, western society at least) who is of age (or not) consumes alcohol from time to time. I'm not saying you cant, I'm saying it would be best to be careful and don't use it as a sleep agent. It's poor as one. The fact that you "got away" with using it before doesnt mean again.
>
> I have NEVER taken a Barbiturate, but from what i have read you have to take, like 30 Nembutals, 50 Seconals, 70+ Amytals to do you know what. This is of course without Ethanol.Definately without. And of course you're taking multiple medications so thats multiple CNS depression.
Tidings... nothing personal, and I hope you get better sleep
-- J
Posted by Phillipa on February 6, 2006, at 22:21:15
In reply to Re: Sleep troubles!-Barbiturates? Seconal Tuinal? » Paulbwell, posted by yxibow on February 6, 2006, at 16:21:42
That bad pdoc must have really been bad as he knew I consumed 5-6 coronas with lime each night along with xanax .5mg. No wonder when they put me in the hospital for my anxiety due to TSH being very high creating axiety the worst I've had he gave me chloral hydrate, xanax, klonopin. And said not to drink again. He had put me in the hospital as my pdoc I worked with called my treating pdoc when I ran to her with the anxiety. I told her what he said that I could drink she asked him on the phone. The next thing I knew he wanted me on disability. I bet he didn't want me to see the pdoc I worked with as that would have meant trouble for him. Boy was I lucky. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by cecilia on February 8, 2006, at 0:37:26
In reply to Re: Sleep troubles!-Barbiturates? Seconal Tuinal?, posted by Phillipa on February 6, 2006, at 22:21:15
I think you'd have to search a very long time to find a doctor willing to prescribe barbituates these days to a non hospitalized patient. Cecilia
Posted by paulbwell on February 8, 2006, at 0:43:36
In reply to Re: Sleep troubles!-Barbiturates? Seconal Tuinal?, posted by cecilia on February 8, 2006, at 0:37:26
> I think you'd have to search a very long time to find a doctor willing to prescribe barbituates these days to a non hospitalized patient. Cecilia
Apparently several folks have said that Nembutal (Pentobarbital) gave them the best sleep ever1, alas it was withdrawn from the market Nov 04.
Ame Sans Vie apparently finds that only a couple 100mg Tuinal 9Seconal+Amytal) caps, works for his insomnia, not even Seconal does! he has tried almost ALL sleep aids. His PsyDoc is probably comfortable with this, since he also receives several other Sch 11 meds.
Posted by tizza on February 8, 2006, at 23:41:42
In reply to Re: Sleep troubles!-Barbiturates? Seconal Tuinal? » cecilia, posted by paulbwell on February 8, 2006, at 0:43:36
I have found mogadon-(nitrazepam-benzo) very helpful for sleeping. I don't think it's available in the US though. I also suffer from sever insomnia and anxiety. Good luck as I find temezapam, zoldipem, zopiclone, oxezapam, alprazolam and lorezapam useless for sleep but valium is ok sometimes for me. Paul. See if you can ask your doctor about mogadon!!
Posted by paulbwell on February 9, 2006, at 2:34:29
In reply to Re: Sleep troubles!-Barbiturates? Seconal Tuinal?, posted by tizza on February 8, 2006, at 23:41:42
> I have found mogadon-(nitrazepam-benzo) very helpful for sleeping. I don't think it's available in the US though. I also suffer from sever insomnia and anxiety. Good luck as I find temezapam, zoldipem, zopiclone, oxezapam, alprazolam and lorezapam useless for sleep but valium is ok sometimes for me. Paul. See if you can ask your doctor about mogadon!!
Last time i saw my PcDoc i asked about Zopliclone, which i had had 2 scripts for, he said to stay awake and do something else, like construck, or write, or read, and stuf, so...I can buy Benedryl 50mg caps OTC which knock me out, but when buying em, i am interegrated about why i want them and am made to feel like Dope fried.
I wish i could buy whatever i wanted.
Cheers
Posted by ed_uk on February 9, 2006, at 15:24:28
In reply to Re: Sleep troubles!-Barbiturates? Seconal Tuinal? » tizza, posted by paulbwell on February 9, 2006, at 2:34:29
Hi P
>I can buy Benedryl 50mg caps OTC which knock me out, but when buying em, i am interegrated about why i want them and am made to feel like Dope fried.
So why not just get a prescription for a sedating antihistamine?
Ed
Posted by paulbwell on February 9, 2006, at 15:47:26
In reply to Re: Sleep troubles!-Barbiturates? Seconal Tuinal? » paulbwell, posted by ed_uk on February 9, 2006, at 15:24:28
> Hi P
>
> >I can buy Benedryl 50mg caps OTC which knock me out, but when buying em, i am interegrated about why i want them and am made to feel like Dope fried.
>
> So why not just get a prescription for a sedating antihistamine?
>
> EdPhenagene?
I'v tried it but don't like it, I can buy ALL the Vodka, booze i like and when combined with a small amount of Diazepam (10-20mgs) works quiet well, but when trying to buy a helpfull sleep med, eg diphenhydramine, i am given the once over-no wonder there are so many alcoholics?
Cheers Ed.
Posted by tizza on February 9, 2006, at 15:52:30
In reply to Re: Sleep troubles!-Barbiturates? Seconal Tuinal? » ed_uk, posted by paulbwell on February 9, 2006, at 15:47:26
Actually phenergan does work very well for me too but has the groggy effect the next day.
Posted by ed_uk on February 10, 2006, at 16:07:03
In reply to Re: Sleep troubles!-Barbiturates? Seconal Tuinal? » ed_uk, posted by paulbwell on February 9, 2006, at 15:47:26
>Phenergan
No, diphenhydramine. Diphenhydramine is a sedating antihistamine. It was originally introduced as a treatment for allergies. You could ask your doc to prescribe it if you like.
Ed
Posted by cecilia on February 11, 2006, at 2:31:53
In reply to Re: Sleep troubles!-Barbiturates? Seconal Tuinal? » paulbwell, posted by ed_uk on February 10, 2006, at 16:07:03
Benadryl (diphenhydramine) is sold over the counter in the U.S. I never even imagined that there would be any reason to restrict it. As far as I know it doesn't do anything other than making you a little sleepy and drying you up. Cecilia
Posted by yxibow on February 11, 2006, at 6:14:18
In reply to Diphenhydramine, posted by cecilia on February 11, 2006, at 2:31:53
> Benadryl (diphenhydramine) is sold over the counter in the U.S. I never even imagined that there would be any reason to restrict it. As far as I know it doesn't do anything other than making you a little sleepy and drying you up. Cecilia
And daytime post-depression. I dont know why people don't just take pseudo-benzodiazepines (e.g. Ambien/CR et alia.) for their REM potential. They're made for it. Drugs for side effect sleep are harsh and interrupt the sleep cycle. But I think I've said this before. :)
Posted by ed_uk on February 11, 2006, at 7:43:53
In reply to Diphenhydramine, posted by cecilia on February 11, 2006, at 2:31:53
Hi Cecilia
I find diphenhydramine OK for sleep. It doesn't affect me the following day like Phenergan does.
>Benadryl (diphenhydramine) is sold over the counter in the U.S. I never even imagined that there would be any reason to restrict it. As far as I know it doesn't do anything other than making you a little sleepy and drying you up.
Like other sedating antihistamines, it has a very minimal potential for misuse.
Ed
Posted by cecilia on February 11, 2006, at 23:46:09
In reply to Re: Diphenhydramine » cecilia, posted by yxibow on February 11, 2006, at 6:14:18
A lot of people probably take Benadryl or other OTC sleeping pills like Unisom (doxylamine succinate) because their doctors are unwilling to prescibe as much Ambien or other real sleeping pills as they need. Also, Ambien is incredibly expensive, and I've heard the new ones like Lunesta are even worse. Cecilia
Posted by yxibow on February 12, 2006, at 1:29:44
In reply to Re: Diphenhydramine Yxibow, posted by cecilia on February 11, 2006, at 23:46:09
> A lot of people probably take Benadryl or other OTC sleeping pills like Unisom (doxylamine succinate) because their doctors are unwilling to prescibe as much Ambien or other real sleeping pills as they need. Also, Ambien is incredibly expensive, and I've heard the new ones like Lunesta are even worse. Cecilia
Its unfortunate that doctors are unwilling to do so because these medications promote real sleep. Yes, they're new and retail cost (Costco) is about $3 a day, as most new medications start off at. Sonata and then Ambien (not CR) may fall off patent in a few years, but Lunesta will still remain.In depressed patients though, Benadryl can cause post-wakeful depression. I know I personally experience depression the day after.
The only other one I would recommend and is fortunately cheap as a generic benzodiazepine is Restoril/temazepam. Its a little better on the system.
Old line antihistamines cause harsh and needless drying of the system.
Remeron has now gone off patent so the generic is about half the cost, and 7.5mg will promote fairly good sleep if one can monitor their weight.
Posted by cecilia on February 12, 2006, at 3:19:45
In reply to Re: Diphenhydramine Yxibow » cecilia, posted by yxibow on February 12, 2006, at 1:29:44
My pdoc prescribes both temazepam and ambien to alternate luckily, I guess he figures that since he's never been able to come up with anything that helps my depression the least he can do is let me sleep. Temazepam is covered by my HMO, but the Ambien I have to pay for out of pocket. It's definitely worth the money, though sometimes nothing works. I take benadryl occasionally in the hope of avoiding building up a tolerance to the others. I haven't tried Lunesta, don't want to rock the boat in case my doctor decides to stop prescribing the others. Lunesta and Ambien CR are sure going for an all out war on the TV commercials, no wonder they cost so much. Cecilia
Posted by ed_uk on February 12, 2006, at 4:42:52
In reply to Re: Sleep Meds: Yxibow, posted by cecilia on February 12, 2006, at 3:19:45
We have generic zopiclone and zolpidem (Ambien, Stilnoct, Stilnox) in the UK.
On a private prescription, a months supply of 10mg zolpidem would cost you less than £7.00 (about $12.00). Brand name Stilnoct would be a bit more expensive.
Zopiclone (very similar to Lunesta) is less expensive. A months supply of 7.5mg on a private prescription would cost you about £5.30 ($9.30).
Temazepam is cheap here too. A months supply of 20mg would cost you about £4.00 ($7.00).
Meds are too expensive in the US. The pharm companies rip you off.
We pay £6.50 ($11.50) for all NHS prescriptions here but I thought you might be interested in the private (non-NHS) costs to compare them with the prices you have to pay.
Fluoxetine (generic Prozac) is particularly cheap here. On a private prescription, a months supply of 20mg would cost you about £4.00 ($7.00).
Ed
Posted by ed_uk on February 12, 2006, at 4:46:26
In reply to Re: Sleep Meds: Yxibow » cecilia, posted by ed_uk on February 12, 2006, at 4:42:52
It's also interesting to note that UK drug prices are not the cheapest in the world by any means. It seems that US drug prices are very high though. I guess you get other stuff cheaper though. It's so expensive to buy a house in England that even young people on very high salaries are struggling. Those on low pay (such as myself) don't have a chance.
Ed
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