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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 20 of 20. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 4WD on December 31, 2005, at 22:28:53
Why is it that any time I go to sleep I wake up scared? I can go to bed feeling perfectly okay, not anxious, not scared, not depressed. But by morning I am scared and jittery and sad. The same thing happens even if I just take a nap. The morning scaredness lasts almost all day. The nap stuff usually only lasts a couple of hours. Does the brain do something while you sleep that results in more of some chemical being secreted?
Celexa 10mg b.i.d.
Klonopin .5mg t.i.d.
about to add Buspar 10mg b.i.dDx MDD
Anxiety disorder
Possible PTSD
Marsha
Posted by Greif on December 31, 2005, at 22:55:27
In reply to What happens while you sleep that makes you scared, posted by 4WD on December 31, 2005, at 22:28:53
With SSRIs sleeping problems ar not uncommon. Lamictal gave me violent nightmares. Klonopin at night is a wonder with SSRIs (I take Lex). I take 1mg at night and sleep wonderful for 7 hrs. 1.5 will allow longer sleep. Buspar is (in my experience) very mild. Larger doses are now being prescibed but K works better. I have not needed to up my dose in over a year.
Posted by bipolarspectrum on January 1, 2006, at 2:33:04
In reply to What happens while you sleep that makes you scared, posted by 4WD on December 31, 2005, at 22:28:53
Hi Marsha,
Have you ever considered that u may be bipolar? Any rapid change in mood is associated with bipolarity... you may suffer from the rapid-cycling form... just an idea that i hope you consider...
bps
Posted by Jakeman on January 1, 2006, at 2:36:54
In reply to What happens while you sleep that makes you scared, posted by 4WD on December 31, 2005, at 22:28:53
This happens to me frequently. There's a lot of blues songs about this, which gives me some small comfort. The dosages you list are very low. Maybe look at increasing them? I've been helped some by writing down my dreams in a journal and working with a therapist. I always wonder what my subconscious is trying to tell me.
warm regards ~Jake
Posted by spriggy on January 1, 2006, at 3:09:03
In reply to Re: What happens while you sleep that makes you scared » 4WD, posted by Jakeman on January 1, 2006, at 2:36:54
I woke up at 5 a.m. this morning with the most HORRIFIC depression- I'm talking about the horrible, deep down, dark, pit depression.
I finally fell back asleep and woke up 4 hours later with the shaking in my chest and horrible anxiety. I hate it!
For me though, usually after I'm up and about, I'm okay.
Posted by blueberry on January 1, 2006, at 14:04:26
In reply to What happens while you sleep that makes you scared, posted by 4WD on December 31, 2005, at 22:28:53
I can relate. I had that problem with prozac. After much trial and error, thinking about it, and putting the clues together over months, I finally figured out what it was...norepinephrine activity during sleep. Prozac causes norepinephrine release, probably one reason it is so stimulating, but with its long half life it doesn't shut down at night. I would wake up in fear. Since then, I have discovered that the amino acids L-phenylalanine, dl-phenylalanine, and tyrosine all do the same thing to me. For me, it's norepinephrine causing the fear.
My doctor is testing my cortisol/DHEA levels too. It's a 4 sample saliva test over a day, not very expensive. If cortisol levels are fluctuating improperly, especially if they are not right when you wake up, it can cause you to wake up in fear. Unfortunatley, most people with mood problems and incomplete responses or bad responses to medications are known to have cortisol problems. I don't know why doctors hardly ever look at the adrenal connection with our mood disorders. It is intricately linked to everything going on. Easy to fix though once it is pinpointed.
Just some things to think about.
Posted by Racer on January 1, 2006, at 15:20:21
In reply to What happens while you sleep that makes you scared, posted by 4WD on December 31, 2005, at 22:28:53
I had a similar sort of problem for many years -- before ever taking any anti-depressants. In those years, I was very depressed, and anxious, and had nightmares EVERY night. I dreaded going to sleep, had horrible insomnia, and woke up upset every morning.
On the other hand, although there was a lot of dread of going to sleep, there wasn't fear per se on waking. That might likely be related to your diurnal cortisol release pattern. That's something to talk to your doctor about, maybe get it tested. Basically, your body releases cortisol to prepare you to wake up, so you may be kinda overdoing that process, eh? Do talk to your doctor about it, see if you can get tested.
Good luck.
Posted by Phillipa on January 1, 2006, at 18:14:56
In reply to What happens while you sleep that makes you scared, posted by 4WD on December 31, 2005, at 22:28:53
Marsha does your mind race too and you think horrible scenarios? Because that's what happens to me too. And then I tire myself out with all the worrying about what is causing it. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on January 1, 2006, at 18:17:45
In reply to I do that often too- waking up scared and jittery, posted by spriggy on January 1, 2006, at 3:09:03
Spriggy is this when you tell yourself to think slowly or is it the fact that your two boys get you going? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on January 1, 2006, at 18:20:44
In reply to Re: What happens while you sleep that makes you sc, posted by Racer on January 1, 2006, at 15:20:21
So how do you reduce your cortisol levels if they're high? A medication or a supplement? Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by 4WD on January 1, 2006, at 21:48:37
In reply to Re: What happens while you sleep that makes you scared, posted by blueberry on January 1, 2006, at 14:04:26
> I can relate. I had that problem with prozac. After much trial and error, thinking about it, and putting the clues together over months, I finally figured out what it was...norepinephrine activity during sleep. Prozac causes norepinephrine release, probably one reason it is so stimulating, but with its long half life it doesn't shut down at night. I would wake up in fear. Since then, I have discovered that the amino acids L-phenylalanine, dl-phenylalanine, and tyrosine all do the same thing to me. For me, it's norepinephrine causing the fear.
>
> My doctor is testing my cortisol/DHEA levels too. It's a 4 sample saliva test over a day, not very expensive. If cortisol levels are fluctuating improperly, especially if they are not right when you wake up, it can cause you to wake up in fear. Unfortunatley, most people with mood problems and incomplete responses or bad responses to medications are known to have cortisol problems. I don't know why doctors hardly ever look at the adrenal connection with our mood disorders. It is intricately linked to everything going on. Easy to fix though once it is pinpointed.
>
> Just some things to think about.I've seen a couple of endocrinologists but neither of them have suggested the salivary sample test. Maybe I should ask. You know, I've told them that's exactly what it feels like - like I wake up with way too much adrenaline coursing through me. I know my cortisol levels are 3-4 times normal. I've had some other tests and am waiting results.
The norepinephrine thing makes sense, too. Any NE enhancing drug makes me scared as all get out.
So what did you do about it?
Thanks,
Marsha
Posted by 4WD on January 1, 2006, at 21:53:54
In reply to Re: What happens while you sleep that makes you sc, posted by Racer on January 1, 2006, at 15:20:21
Hi Racer,
I do have nightmares every night. Sometimes not really nightmares, just wake up knowing I've been dreaming about something very unpleasant.
I want to get tested for the morning cortisol levels but all they seem to want to do is the 24 hour urinary cortisol. I guess I need to get more proactive with them.Are your nightmares gone now? I would think the Wellbutrin would contribute to your insomnia? How are you dealing with that? At least I no longer have trouble falling asleep. Taking Cymbalta for five months completely fixed my lifelong insomnia (couldn't fall asleep)- even after I quit taking it, the insomnia stayed away. It's been such a great gift. OTOH I wake up too early but that's much better than lying there awake for 3 hours every night.
Thanks,
Marsha
Posted by 4WD on January 1, 2006, at 21:56:08
In reply to Re: What happens while you sleep that makes you scared » 4WD, posted by Phillipa on January 1, 2006, at 18:14:56
> Marsha does your mind race too and you think horrible scenarios? Because that's what happens to me too. And then I tire myself out with all the worrying about what is causing it. Fondly, Phillipa
Well, it does if I stay in bed. And it does if I sit on the couch and think about it. What I normally do is make myself go ahead and get up and (take my klonopin) and then try to read or something for a while and then get to work on washing dishes or something. Then it starts to ease. But I have to take more Klonopin in the afternoon. By night I'm fine. But I take another .5 klonopin at bedtime because my pdoc told me to.
Marsha
Posted by 4WD on January 1, 2006, at 21:58:11
In reply to Re: What happens while you sleep that makes you scared » 4WD, posted by Jakeman on January 1, 2006, at 2:36:54
> This happens to me frequently. There's a lot of blues songs about this, which gives me some small comfort. The dosages you list are very low. Maybe look at increasing them? I've been helped some by writing down my dreams in a journal and working with a therapist. I always wonder what my subconscious is trying to tell me.
>
> warm regards ~Jake
You know, I kind of wonder whether I'm processing a lot of years of bad stuff now while I sleep. I had about 3 years of one severe trauma after another which I really didn't feel because I was on Effexor and also occasionally abusing Vicodin and also was bulimic. Now I'm not using any of those anesthetics and maybe I've got some catching up to do. Writing down the dreams is a good idea.Marsha
Posted by 4WD on January 1, 2006, at 22:00:40
In reply to Re: What happens while you sleep that makes you scared, posted by bipolarspectrum on January 1, 2006, at 2:33:04
> Hi Marsha,
> Have you ever considered that u may be bipolar? Any rapid change in mood is associated with bipolarity... you may suffer from the rapid-cycling form... just an idea that i hope you consider...
> bpsI've brought this up with my pdoc but we're trying to rule out endocrinological or neurological problems first. Also I/ve tried Geodon, Seroquel, Risperdal and Zyprexa and only Zyprexa helped. I'm still looking at maybe a true mood stabilizer if everything turns out normal physically.
Marsha
Posted by Racer on January 2, 2006, at 12:16:18
In reply to Re: What happens while you sleep that makes you sc » Racer, posted by 4WD on January 1, 2006, at 21:53:54
The Wellbutrin doesn't seem to have been a problem with insomnia, but then I've had a bunch of changes lately, so who knows what contributes to what...
And as for my nightmares, I didn't always remember them, but woke up knowing I'd had another. My really horrible nightmares lasted from my grandfather's death to my grandmother's death, about three years. That's EVERY blessed night, mind you, and it was beyond miserable. I had one last nightmare, with both grandparents in it, Grandma offering comfort, and then the dreams went away. Mostly. I can still have some doozies.
Go ahead and do the 24 hour urine cortisol. If that comes back anything other than completely abnormal, then ask for the AM cortisol.
On a tangent, I hate those doctors who say that everything is related to psychological problems. "I think your problem is Psychological." "Really? I thought it was a broken arm!" Physical and psychological are too interlinked to be approached entirely separately. If your cortisol levels really are out of whack, then that's going to cause psychological problems. Period. If only because it makes it so hard to sleep. Insomnia will cause psychological problems. Chronic pain will cause psychological problems. And just because a problem has a strong psychological component, that don't mean it ain't real! Grrr
Posted by nicky847 on January 3, 2006, at 11:03:05
In reply to What happens while you sleep that makes you scared, posted by 4WD on December 31, 2005, at 22:28:53
> Why is it that any time I go to sleep I wake up scared? I can go to bed feeling perfectly okay, not anxious, not scared, not depressed. But by morning I am scared and jittery and sad. The same thing happens even if I just take a nap. The morning scaredness lasts almost all day. The nap stuff usually only lasts a couple of hours. Does the brain do something while you sleep that results in more of some chemical being secreted?
> i get the same thing sometimes..
my understanding of it is this..
depression is usually caused by low serotonin levels in the brain..serotonin is a chemical that your body converts to melatonin throughout the day..then that gets converted back into serotonin to get you ready for the next day..not enough serotonin=not enough melatonin, which means you don't get a full nights sleep, and you dont have reconverted serotonin to make you wake up bright eyed and bushy tailed the next day..
unfortunately the only way i know of to fix this is time and patience and medication and lifestyle changes...try and practice good sleep hygiene where you go to bed the same time every night..i find soothing music and deep breathing can be helpful if i wakeup early in the morning and cant get back to sleep...a therapist told me once that even if you cant sleep just try and put your body into a relaxed state..its the next best thing..
> Celexa 10mg b.i.d.
> Klonopin .5mg t.i.d.
> about to add Buspar 10mg b.i.d
>
> Dx MDD
> Anxiety disorder
> Possible PTSD
>
>
> Marsha
>
Posted by 4WD on January 3, 2006, at 21:31:19
In reply to Re: What happens while you sleep that makes you sc » 4WD, posted by Racer on January 2, 2006, at 12:16:18
>
> Go ahead and do the 24 hour urine cortisol. If that comes back anything other than completely abnormal, then ask for the AM cortisol.
>
>Did you mean if it comes back other than normal? It has already come back way abnormal. Normal range was 20-90, mine was 174.I think it is incredibly cool that your nightmares more or less just stopped after your grandmother died and you had that last dream. It gives me great comfort to know that things that like actually happen. thanks for telling me that.
Marsha
Posted by FredPotter on January 4, 2006, at 19:02:59
In reply to What happens while you sleep that makes you scared, posted by 4WD on December 31, 2005, at 22:28:53
I've always felt like this. Daytime naps are particularly bad for fear. I can feel myself going down into a fear-filled layer. I think it's just the way we are
Posted by 4WD on January 7, 2006, at 22:11:59
In reply to Re: What happens while you sleep that makes you scared, posted by FredPotter on January 4, 2006, at 19:02:59
> I've always felt like this. Daytime naps are particularly bad for fear. I can feel myself going down into a fear-filled layer. I think it's just the way we are
I asked my neurologist this question last week and he said that if he knew the answer to that he'd be in Sweden.Marsha
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