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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by MichaelJr on December 3, 2005, at 5:21:24
Hello All
Currently I am on Geodon 120mg. The problem is that it really has worked for me!
I used to have a very serious type of depression. After some testing, the doc said I was probably suffering from more than just depression. She suggested that it could be more along the lines of schizoaffective disorder. Some of my depression symptoms were so bad at times that I always thought it was something more than depression. And the negative symptoms of schizophrenia seemed to be better fit as to what I was experiencing.
Anyway, I have done some serious work in therapy. My family was always a big cause of stress for me, but I am finally out on my own. So I am curious to see how I would do off the meds. I am just scared though because this past year on Geodeon I have felt the best I have ever felt! I am more sociable and connect with people much easier where as before I really had problems socializing.
So do you think that I am a person who will need to be on meds always? The main reason I want to get off meds is because of sexual problems I have on it. I am just worried that I will go back to being miserable once I discontinue the meds.
Any thoughts?
Posted by med_empowered on December 3, 2005, at 6:37:39
In reply to really would like to get off meds, posted by MichaelJr on December 3, 2005, at 5:21:24
hi! No, I don't think being on meds--even if the DX is something pretty serious, like schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder--means *always* being on meds. You've done a lot of therapy, which is great...plus, the skills you've learned while on medication, and the relationships you've developed, will help you when and if you decide to go off medication.
I'm off medication right now (diagnoses: bipolar of various sorts, schizophrenia, more severe unipolar disorder, mood disorder nos) and its a mixed bag. On the one hand, sometimes like seems a little harder. On the other hand, I seem to be functioning much better emotionally and cognitively, and my friends enjoy my company more. So..there you go. Its not a great day everyday, but overall I'd say its a definite improvement for the better.
My first piece of advice would be that if you opt to go off meds, especially antipsychotics, go *slowly*--do not rush this process, please--and be prepared before hand for problems (problems during withdrawal are really more the RULE; a problem-free withdrawal is pretty rare). With antipsychotics, you can expect some increase in aggression, mood swings, irritability, possibly tremor and shakes (withdrawal-emergent EPS). With the new generation of antipsychotics, so much of the brain is affected that you really need to give everything time to re-balance and establish a sort of equilibrium. My suggestion would be to make big cuts in your medication monthly, with smaller cuts made periodically within the monthly periods; depending on your dose, you should probably aim to reduce to nothing over several months. Going really fast on a taper with antipsychotics makes the withdrawal-emergent EPS a lot worse (trust me on that one) and makes the emotional stuff that inevitably pops up that much more difficult to deal with. Since you have a therapist, talk to him/her about it...hopefully, the two of you can address things that pop up as you discontinue medication.
The view of mental illness, even psychosis, as an ongoing, possibly chronic, deteriorating brain *disease* is relatively recent. Jung, for instance, thought that psychosis could actually prove to be a positive experience, resulting in personal growth and greater levels of integration and maturity. Viktor Frankel, whose book "Man's Search For Meaning" is probably one of the best books on human suffering **ever**, thought that suffering could give meaning to one's life. Viewed in that context, "mental illness" is really just another challenge that one must handle somehow, hopefully in a way that proves productive for both the individual and society. Also check out..."Modern Man In Search of A Soul"
Good luck!
Posted by JACJ on December 3, 2005, at 10:38:27
In reply to Re: really would like to get off meds, posted by med_empowered on December 3, 2005, at 6:37:39
I use to come to this forum alot but lurk once and a while but I felt compelled to encourage you Michael. Getting off meds was the hardest thing I have ever done but the best thing I have ever done. I was misdiagnosed and put on 15 meds over 3 years. I have been off all drugs for almost 2 years and doing well but still have a long way to go. I came off them so incredibly fast. I came off 3 mgs of Ativan in 3 weeks and then came off Geodon in 2 weeks. This was WAY TOO FAST! Please take your time tapering cause coming off the drugs so fast can have huge consequences. Luckily, I didn't suffer so extremely bad like some others I know but I am younger and heal quickly. I still have probs though. You can do this. Surround yourself with positive people. Please let us know how it goes.
Med Empowered- I always read your posts and find your advice really helpful. Like I said above I came off the meds fast. I still suffer from muscle twitches but not as bad. I think some days are such a challenge but I have really good days too. I also had a baby 8 weeks ago and while pregnant did well considering. In your opinion, do you think atypical AP's cause permanent damage if you comeoff the meds too fast? What would you do naturally to make yourself better? I am so interested to hear what you have done.
JACJ
Posted by med_empowered on December 3, 2005, at 15:09:56
In reply to Re: really would like to get off meds..Michael/Med, posted by JACJ on December 3, 2005, at 10:38:27
I dont know about "permanent damage"...atypical antipsychotics certainly aren't *nice* to your brain (antipsychotics in general aren't), but I don't think they're nearly as bad as the old-school antipsychotics. My guess would be that sometimes, especially after long-term use, it takes the brain a little be to re-adjust to being unmedicated.
I broke *all* my own rules, lol. I hated being on Abilify (atypical), so I jsut quit it. I had muscle jerks, stuff like that for a couple weeks..then I had increased aggression and what not, with all my emotional stuff bubbling up to the surface. Then I quit adderall really quickly and BuSpar and Cymbalta and Klonopin. The first couple months were really, really rough--erratic sleep, mood swings, etc. But now, I feel better. I mean, I still have mood swings, but they're not so bad...I sleep pretty well..my anxiety is manageable.
Good luck!
Posted by JACJ on December 4, 2005, at 19:59:01
In reply to hey JACJ, posted by med_empowered on December 3, 2005, at 15:09:56
Hi Med,
Thanks for the info. In your research, how long can side effects from withdrawal of AP's last? Also, how many months can TD show up after w/d? I really would like to get on the path to a healthier lifestyle but don't know where to start since I am so affected by any drug that goes into my body.Getting back to your research, can drugs (besides psychotropic drugs) you take in the future make you more suseptible to getting TD? I am glad to see your approach to these drugs is postive. Myself, on the other hand isn't fairing as well as I would like to. These drugs ruined my life and I feel I will be ever effected by it. I am scared and lost. I wonder how much of that is not being on drugs. I am in therapy now and it is helping but have such a ways to go.
TIA,
JACJ
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on December 5, 2005, at 1:47:09
In reply to really would like to get off meds, posted by MichaelJr on December 3, 2005, at 5:21:24
Do not fear taking meds on a longterm basis, as a diabetic would take insulin and a heart patient with heart medicine.
It is GREAT to hear that you are doing better. I would at least try to have a sustained period of stability (a year or more) before tapering off.
Posted by GeishaGirl on December 5, 2005, at 23:10:50
In reply to really would like to get off meds, posted by MichaelJr on December 3, 2005, at 5:21:24
I was on multiple meds for ten years (including anitpsychotics.) I've been med-free for over 3 years. It is really, really hard, but one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life.
A book with helpful info is "Your Drug May Be Your Problem" by Peter Breggin. Gives step-by-step info (along with things to expect from withdrawal), written by a radical psychiatrist. It was really helpful for me.
I wish you well, whatever your choice. :)
Geisha Girl
Posted by JACJ on December 6, 2005, at 6:29:09
In reply to Re: really would like to get off meds, posted by GeishaGirl on December 5, 2005, at 23:10:50
How many AP"s were you on and for how long?
Posted by jamestheyonger on December 8, 2005, at 22:29:05
In reply to Re: really would like to get off meds, posted by GeishaGirl on December 5, 2005, at 23:10:50
http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/breggin.html
http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/NegativeBR/breggin.html
http://web.archive.org/web/20000105033326/chadd.org/Russ-review.htm
Posted by GeishaGirl on December 10, 2005, at 9:43:31
In reply to Re: For geisha, posted by JACJ on December 6, 2005, at 6:29:09
> How many AP"s were you on and for how long?
Wish I could have replied sooner, am sick with the flu.
Trilafon, Mellaril, Thorazine, Moban, Clozaril, Resperidal and Zyprexa. They were prescribed to me over the course of nine or ten years, was on them without a break over that period of time. I was on Moban and Zyprexa the longest.
I was always on other meds at the same time as the AP's. In total, over the course of ten years, I was on 19 different psych meds and on one med to try and get rid of some of the side effects (that med didn't work for side the effects)
Geisha Girl
Posted by med_empowered on December 10, 2005, at 18:25:37
In reply to Re: Hi Med, posted by JACJ on December 4, 2005, at 19:59:01
hi! Antipsychotics have pretty long half-lives (usually), but still..they should be completely out of your system relatively quickly. After that,you may have to deal with some "dopamine rebounb"--usually this just involves increased aggression and the re-emergence of whatever problem(s) were being treated; in some people, it can involve toxic psychosis. After that--you're in clear. Some people get jerks and twitches when they withdraw that then go away (this is what happened to me on Abilify). Atypicals don't cause TD all that often, so I wouldn't worry too much about permanent damage to your system if you've been off the AP for a while...the body has an amazing ability to heal itself.
Posted by JACJ on December 12, 2005, at 19:00:21
In reply to Re: For geisha » JACJ, posted by GeishaGirl on December 10, 2005, at 9:43:31
Hi Geisha,
Did you go thru bad withdrawal? Wow, you were on so many. Good for you to withdraw. What made you come off the drugs?Jacj :)
Posted by JACJ on December 12, 2005, at 19:07:10
In reply to Re: Hi Med, posted by med_empowered on December 10, 2005, at 18:25:37
Hi Med,
I came off the Geodon pretty fast. I came off 80 mgs in 3 weeks. That was too fast. The w/d was murder but I also came off ativan a week earlier in 4 weeks. I was on 4-6 mgs of ativan. I have had twitches and jerks since coming off of them. I will be off the drugs for 2 years in April 2006. I am still twitching but not like when i came off of the drugs. I also jerk too but maybe 4-10 times a week. Why do you twitch/jerk when coming off of the AP?I have healed alot and really haven't taken care of myself. I want to start healing. What would you recommend? Thank you for answering my post.
JACJ
Posted by GeishaGirl on December 19, 2005, at 2:20:31
In reply to Re: For geisha, posted by JACJ on December 12, 2005, at 19:00:21
Sorry, I couldn't reply sooner Jacj, have had the flu.
The physical part of the widrawal wasn't too bad. I tapered the 3 meds over about a year and a half. Felt some physical symptoms along the way, but ate well and took vitamins and herbal supplements. That helped a lot. I also made sure that I got at least 6 hours of sleep a night.
The hardest part for me wasn't the physical withdrawal. For me, all those meds over all those years managed to supress or numb the feelings that I had regarding the traumas that I experienced over the course of my life. When the meds were completely gone and the physical stuff subsided, the emotions flooded - I mean really flooded to the surface.
Prior to going off meds, I had a strong support system and also a written plan on how to take care of myself when things got rough. I wouldn't have been able to do what I did and stay off without these things. I also made the decision that taking care of myself was a priority over everything else.
I had read about the emotional flood after going off meds. The thing is that I was never able to talk to someome who was on the level of meds that I was on for the duration that I was on. So, the emotional flood was much more intense for me than anything I ever read.
I like to make very clear to everyone I ever talk to about this that yes, this was one of the best things I've ever done in my life. It is also one of the hardest. Even after 3 years off meds, I still feel intense emotional turmoil sometimes. But, these experiences are happening less frequently and are shorter in duration. And I am able to let go of or work on whatever was causing the turmoil, which never really happened when I was on meds. I also give myself a break with the emotional stuff. Sometimes I am that way because I'm in an extremely stressful circumstance, one in which any "average" person might react similarly.
I went off meds and stay off them for the same reasons. This is the only way for me to truly heal. Aside from the side effects that I mentioned, the meds numbed me out and scrambled my brain so much that it made it impossible for me to get to the root of why I was the way I was. I figured this out one day. I didn't decide to go off all meds at the time, that was a decision I made along the way. I kept tapering because I kept feeling more and more like myself again and was able to access the part of myself that was wounded, but gone for a long time. That was hard, but for me being on meds, having really bad side effects and losing the essence of who I am (my soul actually felt dead) was worse. I now feel a freedom and inner peace that I never felt before. I always feel that undercurrent of freedom and peace, even though it sometimes gets chaotic :)
Thanks for asking Jacj. Hope you don't mind all this reading, I dont' like to give a short answer to the kind of questions you asked, it feels too misleading :)
Geisha Girl
> Hi Geisha,
> Did you go thru bad withdrawal? Wow, you were on so many. Good for you to withdraw. What made you come off the drugs?
>
> Jacj :)
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