![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on November 27, 2005, at 21:14:55
Does anyone agree with the idea that depression is caused by the immune system? After doing hours and hours and hours of endless reading books and online researching, I am essentially convinced that most mental illness is CAUSED by the immune system. I do not believe immune system activation is caused by depression. It is, in my opinion, most definitely the other way around.
I do not believe depression is directly related to imbalances in serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine or any of the bigger name peptides that are being researched. I believe activation of components of the immune system by some sort of bacterial / viral / fungal component is the CAUSE of (most) mental illness, by indirectly altering the sensitivity of glutocorticoid receptors and also indirectly altering the monoamines mentioned above. A lot of recent studies show that interleukins and interferon alpha cause behavior identical to depression. And interestly, a lot of antidepressants might work NOT through serotonin or norepinephrine, but by inhibiting interleukin 6 or tumor necrosis factor alpha. St. John's Wort, for example, is thought by some to relieve depression through lowering IL-6 levels; this, they believe, is the first and foremost action that allows antidepressant activity. Secondary actions, though not related to antidepressant activity, are reuptake of all monoamines, glutamate, gaba, alteration of sodium channels, etc. Do the research on pubmed.org. See what you find. Or go to google. Type "IL-6 depression" or "St. John's Wort IL-6".
Isn't it weird that most of our depressions are accompanied by feelings of true sickness?? We often feel SICK, not just depressed. I know from my experience, most of what doctors would have called depression was actually me feeling sick. I was depressed because I felt sick. Initially, my main symptom was continuous nausea.
Most of us have pain syndromes or IBS, especially. Yet doctors say the pain syndromes are from not enough norep and serotonin going around, so you take antidepressants. But yet, antidepressants are often direct anti-inflammatory agents by lowering cytokines like IL-6, not necessarily through altering serotonin.
Cytokines have been shown to cause a wide variety of memory deficits, attentional deficits, mood alterations and can cause anxiety. People with mood disorders show substantial increases in these same cytokines. For example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16199015&query_hl=
This study shows that a medication for HIV, efavirenz, increases interleukin-1 beta and tumor necrosis factor alpha. This medication also causes fatigue, insomnia and depression so severe that some people get suicidal. And what do they use to LOWER LEVELS OF THESE CYTOKINES? Paroxetine. Paroxetine prevented increases of the pro inflammatory cyokintes and alleviates the depression:
Does it not seem entirely plausible that people who have increased ENDOGENOUS cytokines might also be experiencing increased endogenous depression?
So what else causes increased inflammatory cytokines besides this antiviral medication mentioned above? Here's an answer:
Within our small and large intestine, we have a slew of bacteria that are generally symbiotic or harmless. Sometimes, the balance of bacteria gets altered so that more inflammation causing bacteria are present, which often happens in IBS. Keep in my mind that people with IBS often have depression or anxiety. Anyway, when the balance of bacteria gets altered so that more pathogenic bacteria are present, inflammatory cytokine levels start to get higher. Studies have been done in people with IBS where they supplement their diet with probiotics - the good bacteria - and symptoms of their IBS improves. At the same time, the pro inflammatory cytokines decrease.
So...
People with IBS have abnormal bacteria which causes increased pro inflammatory cytokines... These same cytokines can cause cognitive and mood dysfunction... And antidepressants in fact lower levels of pro inflammatory cytokines, which correlates with clinical improvement... people with depression often feel TRULY sick...
Maybe we are! Doesn't it seem like there actually IS a sickness here, not just some delusional beliefs and distorted anxieties leading to bowel dysfunction!
I don't mean to sound like my theory is 100% fact, because in reality, there just aren't enough studies that link one thing to the other to the other the way I have. However, I do have a lot of confidence in the validity of this theory and I'm not afraid to show it. Let me put things this way: I've been a hardcore pubmed research nut for 4 years old, initially for my IBS symptoms and now also for my brain dysfunction. I have hundreds and hundreds of studies printed out with notes on the side. As I watch various research on probiotics, IBS and antidepressants pile up, I only become more and more convinced of the truth of my theory. Pieces, here and there add up in my mental memory. I'll make the rather bold statement that in 20 years, you'll see antidepressants that function DIRECTLY by altering cytokine profiles. In addition, you will see "depression" being cured through the use of altering the bacterial, fungal and viral populations in the body. Indeed, depression is genetic in part, as researchers will tell you. BUT, mostly in the response to bacteria / fungus / viruses and the brain's response to cytokines. Some people respond to interferon alpha therapy with suicidal depression. Some people feel fine. THAT'S genetics.
Also, I must conclude by saying that there are, of course, other mechanisms by which the brain enters a state of dysfunction. Nutritional deficiencies can cause this. Environmental toxins can contribute. Inappropriate emotional reactions to events in one's life, etc. But most importantly, we must all take a closer look at our own immune systems if we want to see whats REALLY going on most of the time!
Posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2005, at 22:54:26
In reply to Depression caused by immune system?, posted by Mistermindmasta on November 27, 2005, at 21:14:55
I completly agree with you. Here's a brief history. Mother in 59-60's had Addisons disease caused by corisone given for psoriasis with rheumatoid arthritis. Not much known about autoimmune diseases then. Me panic attacks age 22 got better as years went by then Hasimotos thyroditis an autoimmune disease. High ANA even now, chronic lyme's disease, arthritis. Referral this week to rheumatologist. Sister mild lupus with anxiety/depression, kids all show signs of depression, panic attacks, siter's kids pregancy diabetes, anxiety depression. Small family no further history available. I functioned well until the Hashimotos and giving up beer for SSRI, etc. which do nothing. Oh I also lost taste and smell around a year and a half ago.. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Tomatheus on November 27, 2005, at 22:55:00
In reply to Depression caused by immune system?, posted by Mistermindmasta on November 27, 2005, at 21:14:55
Mistermindmasta,
See below for my responses to to sections of your post...
> Does anyone agree with the idea that depression is caused by the immune system? After doing hours and hours and hours of endless reading books and online researching, I am essentially convinced that most mental illness is CAUSED by the immune system.
I think that there is evidence to support the idea that abnormalities in the immune system are very likely part what causes depression (and potentially other mental illnesses) in some cases. But are immune system abnormalities the cause of *most* cases of mental illness? I doubt it.
> I do not believe immune system activation is caused by depression. It is, in my opinion, most definitely the other way around.
I think there is evidence that it could work both ways.
> I do not believe depression is directly related to imbalances in serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine or any of the bigger name peptides that are being researched.
I think there is evidence that, in some cases, genetically mediated abnormalities of various mechanisms connected to neurotransmitter functioning (e.g., destructive enzymes, reuptake pumps, and receptor sites) are part of what causes depression. When scientists seek to establish a causal relationship between variables, the question that they ask is "which one came first?" Even though there is clear evidence that environmental factors (which could potentially include viruses and toxins that cause disease) are part and parcel of the cause of psychiatic illnesses, I think it is important to examine genetic abnormalities - especially in cases when environmental factors seem to play less of a role - when examining causative factors of mental illness because it is indeed our genes that come first. As I have mentioned in other posts, genetic variations that encode for abnormal functioning of several mechanisms in the serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine systems have shown statistically significant associations with psychiatric illnesses. Many of these relationships have been replicated in multiple studies. So, I do think that there is evidence that genetically mediated abnormalities of the neurotransmitter systems are part of what causes psychiatric illnesses -- in some cases. But are these the only genetic variants that have shown statistically significant associations with psychiatric illnesses? Absolutely not. And are genetic causes the *only* causes of mental illness. Of course not. In the diathesis-stress model of explaining the causes of mental illnesses, genetic factors only represent the diathesis.
> I believe activation of components of the immune system by some sort of bacterial / viral / fungal component is the CAUSE of (most) mental illness, by indirectly altering the sensitivity of glutocorticoid receptors and also indirectly altering the monoamines mentioned above.
Once again, I do think that there is evidence that the factors you mention likely contribute to the causation of psychiatic illnesses in some cases, but I don't think that there is evidence to support the statement that these factors cause *most* mental illnesses.
> A lot of recent studies show that interleukins and interferon alpha cause behavior identical to depression. And interestly, a lot of antidepressants might work NOT through serotonin or norepinephrine, but by inhibiting interleukin 6 or tumor necrosis factor alpha. St. John's Wort, for example, is thought by some to relieve depression through lowering IL-6 levels; this, they believe, is the first and foremost action that allows antidepressant activity. Secondary actions, though not related to antidepressant activity, are reuptake of all monoamines, glutamate, gaba, alteration of sodium channels, etc. Do the research on pubmed.org. See what you find. Or go to google. Type "IL-6 depression" or "St. John's Wort IL-6".
Yes, you're absolutely right. This is interesting research material. I am personally aware of the relationship between IL-6 levels and depression (although I understand that many users here are probably not, and I'm glad that you pointed it out). And yes, I think there is definitely strong evidence that amino acids, cytokines, and hormones exert indirect actions on the levels of neurotransmitters. As you pointed out, a lot of research studies have focused on the relationship between psychiatric illnesses and factors such as the levels of amino acids and cytokines. I personally would like to see more research done in these areas, and I think researchers should pay particular attention to trying to better understand the causal role that cytokines and amino acids play in psychiatric illnesses.
> Isn't it weird that most of our depressions are accompanied by feelings of true sickness?? We often feel SICK, not just depressed. I know from my experience, most of what doctors would have called depression was actually me feeling sick. I was depressed because I felt sick. Initially, my main symptom was continuous nausea.
This is interesting. From what I have read, I don't think that most depressive patients experience continuous nausea as their initial main symptom, but I don't doubt what you're saying at all. I thank you for sharing your experience. It just goes to show me how different all of our experiences are (and implies that depression is vastly heterogeneous; in other words, there is no single factor that is the cause of *most* depressions).
> Most of us have pain syndromes or IBS, especially. Yet doctors say the pain syndromes are from not enough norep and serotonin going around, so you take antidepressants. But yet, antidepressants are often direct anti-inflammatory agents by lowering cytokines like IL-6, not necessarily through altering serotonin.
Yes, you're right. Oftentimes, that is true.
> Cytokines have been shown to cause a wide variety of memory deficits, attentional deficits, mood alterations and can cause anxiety. People with mood disorders show substantial increases in these same cytokines. For example: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16199015&query_hl=
>
> This study shows that a medication for HIV, efavirenz, increases interleukin-1 beta and tumor necrosis factor alpha. This medication also causes fatigue, insomnia and depression so severe that some people get suicidal. And what do they use to LOWER LEVELS OF THESE CYTOKINES? Paroxetine. Paroxetine prevented increases of the pro inflammatory cyokintes and alleviates the depression:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16166808&query_hl=1
>
> Does it not seem entirely plausible that people who have increased ENDOGENOUS cytokines might also be experiencing increased endogenous depression?Yes. Actually, it is more than just plausible. Consider this study on the relationship between dysthymia and abnormal variants of the IL-alpha, IL-1beta, and IL-RA genes (but remember that dysthymia is believed to be heterogeneous and that these genetic variants are probably present in some, but not all, cases of dysthymia):
> So what else causes increased inflammatory cytokines besides this antiviral medication mentioned above? Here's an answer:
>
> Within our small and large intestine, we have a slew of bacteria that are generally symbiotic or harmless. Sometimes, the balance of bacteria gets altered so that more inflammation causing bacteria are present, which often happens in IBS. Keep in my mind that people with IBS often have depression or anxiety. Anyway, when the balance of bacteria gets altered so that more pathogenic bacteria are present, inflammatory cytokine levels start to get higher. Studies have been done in people with IBS where they supplement their diet with probiotics - the good bacteria - and symptoms of their IBS improves. At the same time, the pro inflammatory cytokines decrease.
>
> So...
>
> People with IBS have abnormal bacteria which causes increased pro inflammatory cytokines... These same cytokines can cause cognitive and mood dysfunction... And antidepressants in fact lower levels of pro inflammatory cytokines, which correlates with clinical improvement... people with depression often feel TRULY sick...Yes, you are correct.
> Maybe we are! Doesn't it seem like there actually IS a sickness here, not just some delusional beliefs and distorted anxieties leading to bowel dysfunction!
Maybe. Your theory could potentially explain some cases of depression, but I am not convinced that IBS is associated with depression in a majority of cases.
> I don't mean to sound like my theory is 100% fact, because in reality, there just aren't enough studies that link one thing to the other to the other the way I have. However, I do have a lot of confidence in the validity of this theory and I'm not afraid to show it. Let me put things this way: I've been a hardcore pubmed research nut for 4 years old, initially for my IBS symptoms and now also for my brain dysfunction. I have hundreds and hundreds of studies printed out with notes on the side. As I watch various research on probiotics, IBS and antidepressants pile up, I only become more and more convinced of the truth of my theory. Pieces, here and there add up in my mental memory. I'll make the rather bold statement that in 20 years, you'll see antidepressants that function DIRECTLY by altering cytokine profiles.
I hope you're right. I personally think that there is a dire need for more antidepressants that have a primary mechanism of action of doing something other than inhibiting the reuptake of serotonin, norepinephrine, and/or norepinephrine.
> In addition, you will see "depression" being cured through the use of altering the bacterial, fungal and viral populations in the body. Indeed, depression is genetic in part, as researchers will tell you. BUT, mostly in the response to bacteria / fungus / viruses and the brain's response to cytokines. Some people respond to interferon alpha therapy with suicidal depression. Some people feel fine. THAT'S genetics.
Yes, but the genes that have been associated with cytokine levels are not the only genes that have been associated with depression. But in with some cases of depression, it is possible that you may be right.
> Also, I must conclude by saying that there are, of course, other mechanisms by which the brain enters a state of dysfunction. Nutritional deficiencies can cause this. Environmental toxins can contribute. Inappropriate emotional reactions to events in one's life, etc. But most importantly, we must all take a closer look at our own immune systems if we want to see whats REALLY going on most of the time!
You're absolutely right!
Tomatheus
Posted by Declan on November 27, 2005, at 23:36:51
In reply to Re: Depression caused by immune system? » Mistermindmasta, posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2005, at 22:54:26
Honestly, I'm too wrecked to read all your post, but my immune system is way off and it seems entirely reasonable that there should be some connection between that and mood. My nutritinal doctor talks about all that stuff, IL 4 or 5. It's so complex, tumour necrosis factor etc. Nobody has a clue IMO. Not really, I mean not for me or you. I'm meant to be covering all those bases and no doubt I could feel worse, and probably would without what I spend on his stuff. How on earth do people stay upright?
Declan
Posted by Tomatheus on November 27, 2005, at 23:38:19
In reply to Depression caused by immune system?, posted by Mistermindmasta on November 27, 2005, at 21:14:55
FYI...
ABSTRACT:
Replication test for association of the IL-1 receptor antagonist gene, IL1RN, with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder.
Misener VL, Schachar R, Ickowicz A, Malone M, Roberts W, Tannock R, Kennedy JL, Pathare T, Barr CL.
Cell and Molecular Biology Division, Toronto Western Research Institute, University Health Network, Toronto, Ont., Canada.
Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) has a strong genetic basis, and aberrant brain dopaminergic and noradrenergic activity is implicated in its etiology. Interleukin-1 (IL-1), its antagonist, IL-1Ra, and IL-1 receptors are all present in the brain, and IL-1 has been shown to influence both dopaminergic and noradrenergic function. Recently, Segman et al. [1] tested the IL-1Ra gene, IL1RN, as a candidate for involvement in ADHD.Using the transmission/disequilibrium test (TDT) to examine 77 nuclear ADHD families for the inheritance of alleles of an intronic 86-bp VNTR polymorphism, they found significant evidence for biased transmission of the 4-repeat allele (p=0.04) and non-transmission of the 2-repeat allele (p=0.03). Here, we sought to replicate this in an independent sample of families. In contrast to the previous findings, our analysis of 178 ADHD families showed no evidence for biased transmission of these alleles (p=0.81 and p=1.00, respectively). Our lack of evidence for association of this IL1RN polymorphism with ADHD, based on a much larger sample of families, suggests that the original finding may have been a spurious (i.e. false-positive) result. These findings highlight the need for further investigations of this marker, in additional independent ADHD samples, in the future. Copyright 2004 S. Karger AG, Basel
LINK TO FULL ARTICLE (PDF):
http://www.twinsandmultiples.org/adhd/misener2004.pdfTomatheus
Posted by lunesta on November 28, 2005, at 1:24:48
In reply to Depression caused by immune system?, posted by Mistermindmasta on November 27, 2005, at 21:14:55
Everything can be traced back to the endorphin system, pro-opiomelanocortin mRNA expression and the related opidergic systems in the body.
Venlaxaxine, Mitarzipine (eexor, Remeron and Cymbalta) all work via opiodergic systems which is interesting since these are effective for neruopathic pain type syndroms.
SSRI's have direct anti bacterial activity, check pubmed. Its relate to tryptophan depletion or something.
All autoimmune diseases can be halted using low dose naltrexone which increases endorphins and the related peptides. lowdosenaltrexone.org
In the end, I think stress is the problem though. Opioidergic systems are the primary stress system, gaba is backup.
I think chronic stress of any type, biological, trauma, emotional can cause increased MU opiod receptor binding of endorphins, and lead to an actual downregulation of your own endorphin system, leading to lowered MU/endorphin/stress/pain tolerance, and MU receptors directly cross talk with the Delta opiod receptors which control the immune system.
I agree, with you but it becomes very complex but there is a common factor in nearly every disease state which is loss of stress tolerance, opiodergic dysunctions, and subsequent inflammation/low immune system function.
Posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 13:49:11
In reply to Re: Depression caused by immune system? » Mistermindmasta, posted by lunesta on November 28, 2005, at 1:24:48
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I have talked to my husband about this very thing. He has told me over, and over, and over again that I got depressed and this horrific anxiety after I got sick.It started out with chronic yeast infections (for the first time in my life last winter), then a high white count, went on antibiotics, go worse and worse and worse.
Got diagnosed with everything under the sun; hypoglycemia, Epstein Barr, fibromyalgia, lupus, asthma, etc..
It was like my whole immune system shut down and the more sick I got- the more my mental state went haywire.
Posted by ed_uk on November 28, 2005, at 14:08:18
In reply to YES, YES, YES!, posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 13:49:11
Hi Spriggy,
What are your current diagnoses?
Ed x
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on November 28, 2005, at 16:26:06
In reply to YES, YES, YES!, posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 13:49:11
Hey folks,
I just realised --When I had some blood work done (in the summer), my white cells were low (below normal) although I can't remember which white cells. I was rather baffled. But now, maybe it is something to do the the immune system. I got some weird viral thing in my first year at uni (that was in 1998), where I would get really tired and just be ill for several months. Could this have been a trigger?
But I also have to say that my most sereve episodes were precipitated by stressful events.
I guess maybe its like most things - there's a spectrum and also genes vs environment.
Posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 17:57:53
In reply to Re: YES, YES, YES! » spriggy, posted by Meri-Tuuli on November 28, 2005, at 16:26:06
You mean my "mental" diagnose or my physical?
My mental so far was possibly BP 2 and GAD with panic attacks.
That was from a regular GP, the psych said I didn't have a mental disorder ( he spent a total of about 5 minutes with me before declaring that!) and said I simply had akathasia.
So who knows????
I know one thing- I feel "normal" for a while (mentally), then I go through periods of EXTREME agitation/anxiety, and then I go through depression..
And thus the cycle goes.. I thought i was officially better and Klonopin was helping (with the anxiety) but then got smacked upside the head with dark depression again.
Now, I am officially struggling with that again- the kind that makes you not care to live (except that you love your family)- so you do your best to pretend you are okay when inside you are dead already.
Know what I mean?
Posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2005, at 19:11:56
In reply to Re: YES, YES, YES!.. Ed, posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 17:57:53
Spriggy I know exactly what you mean. Same with me. We would definitely make a pair wouldn't we? Love your friend Phillipa
Posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 23:52:06
In reply to Re: YES, YES, YES!.. Ed » spriggy, posted by Phillipa on November 28, 2005, at 19:11:56
I had my husband read what you wrote- he thinks you're a genius.
He kept going, " This makes perfect sense."
He wants me to have my doctor test my cytokines?
Is that possible? ROFL
He's totally on board with you and is stocking me up with probiotics!
Posted by spriggy on November 29, 2005, at 0:08:44
In reply to Re: YES, YES, YES!..Mistermindmasta, posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 23:52:06
I read as much as I could online about cytokines and found it VERY ironic (or coincidental more like it) that the FOUR things I have been diagnosed with, according to the info I read, are directly related to high cytokines..
There was especially a lot of info on high cytokines causing Fibromyalgia, Asthma- and I found a few articles on autoimmune disease (my lupus) and Epstein Barr.
I've had Epstein Barr in my blood work in extremely high numbers, Fibromyalgia diagnosed, Asthma/allergies suddenly, and Have had 4 positive ANA tests (plus the butterfly rash) for Lupus.
You have NO idea how much insight this has given me. I feel like this makes sense. It's NOT ALL IN MY HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is VERY possible this is what has happened to me; the yeast infections/fungal infections, fevers, achiness, etc..Do you think my doctor would listen to me if I shared all this and asked to be tested???
What can they do to lower them?
I read one doctor suggested water therapy (being in 85 degree water suspended or something).
I am fascinated.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on November 29, 2005, at 1:44:08
In reply to Re: Depression caused by immune system? » Mistermindmasta, posted by Phillipa on November 27, 2005, at 22:54:26
> I completly agree with you. Here's a brief history. Mother in 59-60's had Addisons disease caused by corisone given for psoriasis with rheumatoid arthritis. Not much known about autoimmune diseases then. Me panic attacks age 22 got better as years went by then Hasimotos thyroditis an autoimmune disease. High ANA even now, chronic lyme's disease, arthritis. Referral this week to rheumatologist. Sister mild lupus with anxiety/depression, kids all show signs of depression, panic attacks, siter's kids pregancy diabetes, anxiety depression. Small family no further history available. I functioned well until the Hashimotos and giving up beer for SSRI, etc. which do nothing. Oh I also lost taste and smell around a year and a half ago.. Fondly, Phillipa
Yeah I hear ya. My mother's side of the family is struck with both autoimmune type diseases AND mild psychiatric issues. Coincidence? I tend to not think so. So it sounds like you've got a lot of immune system issues yourself. I wouldn't be surprised that whenever your overall physical health improves, so does your mental health. From my research, you might even want to focus on your immune system problems and your mental health might naturally get better.When I avoided gluten, dairy, yeast and started eating a low sugar diet, I felt 400% better than I did before. That's just me though. I don't know what to do to help your situation, exactly.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on November 29, 2005, at 1:48:40
In reply to Re: Depression caused by immune system? » Mistermindmasta, posted by Tomatheus on November 27, 2005, at 22:55:00
I have some replies to you, Tom', but it's a lot to reply to now, so I'm gonna write you later.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on November 29, 2005, at 1:51:28
In reply to Re: Depression caused by immune system?, posted by Declan on November 27, 2005, at 23:36:51
> Honestly, I'm too wrecked to read all your post, but my immune system is way off and it seems entirely reasonable that there should be some connection between that and mood. My nutritinal doctor talks about all that stuff, IL 4 or 5. It's so complex, tumour necrosis factor etc. Nobody has a clue IMO. Not really, I mean not for me or you. I'm meant to be covering all those bases and no doubt I could feel worse, and probably would without what I spend on his stuff. How on earth do people stay upright?
> Declan
Yeah I think the most important thing to realise is that you might really just be SICK, not necessarily just "depressed". SICK people feel less sick when given antidepressants, that doesn't mean that one is depressed. Anyway, take a deeper look into your immune system issues. See if focusing on that a bit more makes you truly feel better.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on November 29, 2005, at 1:59:31
In reply to Another interesting study involving IL-1, posted by Tomatheus on November 27, 2005, at 23:38:19
Sounds like this studies shows no association between the il-1 gene and ADHD, but studies in the past did.
This is another good abstract however, in that it's saying that ADHD could be caused by a reaction to increased IL-1, which modulate noradrenergic activity. I believe this is the future of ADHD and what it's really about. Well, not necessarily that IL-1 causes ADHD but this general direction is where the exciting stuff is gonna be.
I imagine a scenerio where, for example, studies find that people with certain genetics and increased (unknown?) fungal populations in the gut will respond by inappropriately releasing IL-1, which their brain inappropriately responds by cutting out NE and DA function... just an example of the type of research I am expecting in the future...
> FYI...
>
> ABSTRACT:
>
> Replication test for association of the IL-1 receptor antagonist gene, IL1RN, with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder.
>
> Misener VL, Schachar R, Ickowicz A, Malone M, Roberts W, Tannock R, Kennedy JL, Pathare T, Barr CL.
>
> Cell and Molecular Biology Division, Toronto Western Research Institute, University Health Network, Toronto, Ont., Canada.
>
> Attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) has a strong genetic basis, and aberrant brain dopaminergic and noradrenergic activity is implicated in its etiology. Interleukin-1 (IL-1), its antagonist, IL-1Ra, and IL-1 receptors are all present in the brain, and IL-1 has been shown to influence both dopaminergic and noradrenergic function. Recently, Segman et al. [1] tested the IL-1Ra gene, IL1RN, as a candidate for involvement in ADHD.Using the transmission/disequilibrium test (TDT) to examine 77 nuclear ADHD families for the inheritance of alleles of an intronic 86-bp VNTR polymorphism, they found significant evidence for biased transmission of the 4-repeat allele (p=0.04) and non-transmission of the 2-repeat allele (p=0.03). Here, we sought to replicate this in an independent sample of families. In contrast to the previous findings, our analysis of 178 ADHD families showed no evidence for biased transmission of these alleles (p=0.81 and p=1.00, respectively). Our lack of evidence for association of this IL1RN polymorphism with ADHD, based on a much larger sample of families, suggests that the original finding may have been a spurious (i.e. false-positive) result. These findings highlight the need for further investigations of this marker, in additional independent ADHD samples, in the future. Copyright 2004 S. Karger AG, Basel
>
> LINK TO FULL ARTICLE (PDF):
> http://www.twinsandmultiples.org/adhd/misener2004.pdf
>
> Tomatheus
Posted by Mistermindmasta on November 29, 2005, at 2:06:17
In reply to Re: Depression caused by immune system? » Mistermindmasta, posted by lunesta on November 28, 2005, at 1:24:48
I find all this to be interesting and whatnot, and probably a bit of new info to me, but I will strongly disagree that psychological stress is the issue. Some people simply self destruct, physically and mentally, under stress. My health deteriorated when I was exposed to stress, but I don't think my lack of ability to handle stress was psychological, it's physiological. Some people, on the other hand, will only temporarily be phased and then feel good upon being exposed to stress. I don't believe these people just know how to handle their emotions better, I actually don't think they really have to try... they just aren't phased by stress. That's just my opinion, which is subject to further falsification.
> Everything can be traced back to the endorphin system, pro-opiomelanocortin mRNA expression and the related opidergic systems in the body.
>
> Venlaxaxine, Mitarzipine (eexor, Remeron and Cymbalta) all work via opiodergic systems which is interesting since these are effective for neruopathic pain type syndroms.
>
> SSRI's have direct anti bacterial activity, check pubmed. Its relate to tryptophan depletion or something.
>
> All autoimmune diseases can be halted using low dose naltrexone which increases endorphins and the related peptides. lowdosenaltrexone.org
>
> In the end, I think stress is the problem though. Opioidergic systems are the primary stress system, gaba is backup.
>
> I think chronic stress of any type, biological, trauma, emotional can cause increased MU opiod receptor binding of endorphins, and lead to an actual downregulation of your own endorphin system, leading to lowered MU/endorphin/stress/pain tolerance, and MU receptors directly cross talk with the Delta opiod receptors which control the immune system.
>
> I agree, with you but it becomes very complex but there is a common factor in nearly every disease state which is loss of stress tolerance, opiodergic dysunctions, and subsequent inflammation/low immune system function.
>
>
Posted by Mistermindmasta on November 29, 2005, at 2:07:35
In reply to YES, YES, YES!, posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 13:49:11
>
> OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I have talked to my husband about this very thing. He has told me over, and over, and over again that I got depressed and this horrific anxiety after I got sick.
>
> It started out with chronic yeast infections (for the first time in my life last winter), then a high white count, went on antibiotics, go worse and worse and worse.
>
> Got diagnosed with everything under the sun; hypoglycemia, Epstein Barr, fibromyalgia, lupus, asthma, etc..
>
> It was like my whole immune system shut down and the more sick I got- the more my mental state went haywire.
>
>
>EXACTLY! That's what I'm talking about! There's soooo many people that this same thing happens to! I wish the research was more fast paced...
Posted by Mistermindmasta on November 29, 2005, at 2:09:31
In reply to Re: YES, YES, YES! » spriggy, posted by Meri-Tuuli on November 28, 2005, at 16:26:06
It could have been a trigger... I think...
Do you feel you're completely over the viral thing?
Posted by Mistermindmasta on November 29, 2005, at 2:21:10
In reply to Re: YES, YES, YES!..Mistermindmasta, posted by spriggy on November 28, 2005, at 23:52:06
> I had my husband read what you wrote- he thinks you're a genius.
>Hey that's cool! I'm pretty sure I'm not a genius, I'm just really obsessed with figuring this whole damn thing out! I am going to school for biochemistry, so hopefully that will help me out in my pursuits. In my idealistic nonsense fantasy land, I will, in the future, be doing all the studies that NEED to be done... the ideas that I have in my head will actually be tested... I'd love to see them bear fruit.
> He kept going, " This makes perfect sense."
>
> He wants me to have my doctor test my cytokines?
>
> Is that possible? ROFL
>I don't think a normal doctor can test cytokines, in fact, I'm almost sure that this isn't possible. However, I've yet to do any sort of search on the internet to find some alternative / independent labs that DO test cytokine levels. I would not be surprised if a few existed.
> He's totally on board with you and is stocking me up with probiotics!
The thing with probiotics is that only a few brands have shown clinical significance. The rest of the brands go by anecdotal evidence (remember that they ARE trying to sell something) and theory. The theory is good, but is the anecdotal evidence? Natren's health trinity has a good bit of anecdotal evidence, but I don't know about worthwhile studies.
Culturelle is a well researched probiotic.
Also, the VSL #3 bacteria and Lactobacillus GG bacteria have been shown to work, but I can't remember the brand names...
If you have the money, I'd also be eating raw, live sauerkraut or whatever raw, live fermented vegetables you can find. That theoretically builds these healthy, anti-inflammatory bacteria back up.
The key is to alter your intestinal bacterial balance from the current (theoretical) pro-inflammatory variety to a more anti-inflammatory variety that is common to the lactobacillus species.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on November 29, 2005, at 2:33:16
In reply to another interesting thing..!..Mistermindmasta, posted by spriggy on November 29, 2005, at 0:08:44
> I read as much as I could online about cytokines and found it VERY ironic (or coincidental more like it) that the FOUR things I have been diagnosed with, according to the info I read, are directly related to high cytokines..
>
> There was especially a lot of info on high cytokines causing Fibromyalgia, Asthma- and I found a few articles on autoimmune disease (my lupus) and Epstein Barr.
>
> I've had Epstein Barr in my blood work in extremely high numbers, Fibromyalgia diagnosed, Asthma/allergies suddenly, and Have had 4 positive ANA tests (plus the butterfly rash) for Lupus.
>
>
> You have NO idea how much insight this has given me. I feel like this makes sense. It's NOT ALL IN MY HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I'm glad I've given you some hope!
>
>
> It is VERY possible this is what has happened to me; the yeast infections/fungal infections, fevers, achiness, etc..
>Yep, it is possible.
> Do you think my doctor would listen to me if I shared all this and asked to be tested???
Well, like I said in my initial post... there hasn't been enough studies for a normal doc to be convinced. I would not surprised if he labeled your presentation of these ideas to him as "delusional" or "paranoid" ideas.
>
> What can they do to lower them?To lower cytokines? As your asthma / FMS / lupus improves, your cytokines should also become a bit more normal. What that really means is that if you want to lower your cytokines, you should really be trying to improve your physical state of health.
Fish oil and probiotics have both shown general anti-inflammatory effects and could be good for you. I honestly haven't researched lupus / asthma, EBV, etc a whole lot but you should be trying to scope out what theories are out there as to what causes these diseases... for example, in multiple sclerosis, there's a fairly strong bit of anecdotal evidence suggesting the gluten protein in wheat plays a role in the MS disease... i don't know what role diet plays in lupus, for example, but it would be worth your research to spend a few hours doing some google searches. I believe that as you find something that starts to lessen your illnesses, then you'll be on the right track. That probably sounds too vague but I don't know how to put it any other way. Physical health will equal mental health...
>
> I read one doctor suggested water therapy (being in 85 degree water suspended or something).
>
>never heard of this...
> I am fascinated.
>
>yeah, it is all VERY fascinating indeed
Posted by arina on November 29, 2005, at 5:19:18
In reply to Depression caused by immune system?, posted by Mistermindmasta on November 27, 2005, at 21:14:55
I guess im a bit late for this disscussion but I remember many years ago I went on a total health fast,ate brown calcrose rice no added salt or flavours just stirfried in oil and some vegies,then I gave up all sugar and stuff and gave up smoking(with help of nicobrevin).I first felt my energy come back I FELT SO ALIVE and as the energy came back so did my CONFIDENCE my MENTAL DULLNESS LIFTED (I even brought myself a pair of relly comfortable running shoes and started running) I was just so ENERGIZED,even walking became something wonderfull .Also It was different than a crazy like bipolar high,because there was no attatched anziety or things, but I soon returned to smoking and my old bad diet and crashed back down again.If only the power was strong enough to try it again or to have kept it up.I think mentall health and physical health do definatly go hand in hand,and also mental health isnt just about the mind like docs say but it stems from the heart,deep down.Arina
Posted by Tomatheus on November 29, 2005, at 15:09:24
In reply to Re: Depression caused by immune system?, posted by Mistermindmasta on November 29, 2005, at 1:48:40
> I have some replies to you, Tom', but it's a lot to reply to now, so I'm gonna write you later.
That's fine with me. Please, by all means, take your time.
Tomatheus
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on November 29, 2005, at 16:44:32
In reply to Re: YES, YES, YES! » Meri-Tuuli, posted by Mistermindmasta on November 29, 2005, at 2:09:31
Yeah I am COMPETELY over the viral thing. Plus that was in 1998 and it cleared up after a few months. Then I was happy and anxiety free until 2002 until I got to my final year at uni and thats when the anxiety and depression kicked really bad and I had to take the year off. Since then its gotten better and then worse.
I would have to say that I think in my case its more stress. I just can't handle it like my contempories can.
Although it is interesting that my white blood cell count was (and still may be) low. hmmmmmm
> It could have been a trigger... I think...
>
> Do you feel you're completely over the viral thing?
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