Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 548105

Shown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Why do antidepressants make me feel worse?

Posted by denise190466 on August 29, 2005, at 10:54:48

Hi,

I started Nardil just over a week ago and last week I felt absolutely awful, I couldn't walk properly, my co-ordination was completely out, felt completely detached from everything and was seriously thinking of suicide.

I took a Zyprexa on Friday so am feeling better now but I just don't get it. Antidepressants used to work so well for me when I was in my late twenties, early thirties so I just can't understand why they don't work now. It just doesn't make sense. I can't have built up a tolerance to them because I came off them when I was about 32, the depression started again when I was 35 and since then everything I've tried has either made me feel worse or only helped a little. And I'm not Bipolar, I know for sure I suffer from Unipolar Dysthimic disorder.

Could I have less Serotonin Transporters than I did then, could that be the reason and is there anyway I could find out?


Kind Regards.....Denise

 

Re: Why do antidepressants make me feel worse?

Posted by linkadge on August 29, 2005, at 12:14:24

In reply to Why do antidepressants make me feel worse?, posted by denise190466 on August 29, 2005, at 10:54:48

Here's my take on it.

We don't know why antidepressants work. The serotonin theory is *not* concrete.

We know now that the serotonin theory is *not* concrete because we have a drug called Tianeptine (which is an effective antidepressant) which is a serotonin reuptake accelerator (it does the opposite to what SSRIs do, it speeds the reputake of serotonin, instead of inhibiting the reputake of serotonin).

Nobody knows why AD's will work for some people and not for others.

It may very well be hormonal. As a teenager, SSRI's seemed to work, maybe because I needed the extra serotonin to calm down the testosterone induced irritability. As I get older maybe I need more of a dopaminergic who knows.

I would personally try a different antidepressant.

If it makes you suicidal, then that is unnacceptable. Don't let the notion that MAOIS are *supposed* to be more effective controll you, the most effective AD is the one that works for you.

I know plenty of people who have gone psychotic on MAOI's. They are powerfull pills that alter a large number of neurotransmitters.

serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine, gaba, PEA etc. Maybe the nardil is not hitting the target, and maybe hitting the wrong targets.

Linkadge


 

Re: Why do antidepressants make me feel worse? » denise190466

Posted by ed_uk on August 29, 2005, at 12:38:22

In reply to Why do antidepressants make me feel worse?, posted by denise190466 on August 29, 2005, at 10:54:48

Hi Denise,

Parnate might work better for you than Nardil. Some people who *hate* Nardil do very well on Parnate. The GABAergic effects of Nardil might be affecting your co-ordination and making you feel detached. Parnate lacks these effects.

~ed xx

 

Re: Why do antidepressants make me feel worse? » denise190466

Posted by ixus on August 29, 2005, at 15:45:38

In reply to Why do antidepressants make me feel worse?, posted by denise190466 on August 29, 2005, at 10:54:48

Hi,
if you are in rush, Parnate provides fast and sometimes long relief in many. This is the only antidepressant I can tolerate. I had tried Nardil after Parnate and had had exactly the same effect as you had. Why? Maybe lack of withdrawal from Parnate (Parnate is addictive) or just Nardil itself.
/ixus

 

Re: Why do antidepressants make me feel worse?

Posted by Declan on August 29, 2005, at 18:18:48

In reply to Re: Why do antidepressants make me feel worse? » denise190466, posted by ixus on August 29, 2005, at 15:45:38

If the depression wasn't too bad for me I'd titrate up under the side effects. I wonder though if this means that the response to the drug will always be subtherapeutic. I dunno, I think its like making a silk purse out of a sows ear, but if you can do it successfully I take my hat off to you.
Declan

 

Re: Why do antidepressants make me feel worse? » denise190466

Posted by Chairman_MAO on August 30, 2005, at 13:53:58

In reply to Why do antidepressants make me feel worse?, posted by denise190466 on August 29, 2005, at 10:54:48

The real picture is way more complex than the density or number of serotonin transporters that you have. Moreover, I am not sure of what relevance this is specifically because Nardil has no effect on the serotonin uptake transporter.

My simple suggestion is to back off on the Nardil dose until you don't feel so disoriented and increase it more slowly. Go up by 1/2 a pill if necessary. It takes at least four, perhaps 6-8 weeks to kick in. I know for me, the full benefit of phenelzine in SP didn't manifest until I was on it for several months; perhaps it just takes a long time to integrate the drug effect into my psyche.

You could also try Marplan, which is similar to Nardil (hydrazine MAOI).

 

Re: To Linkadge

Posted by denise1966 on August 31, 2005, at 6:33:23

In reply to Re: Why do antidepressants make me feel worse?, posted by linkadge on August 29, 2005, at 12:14:24

Hi Linkadge,

I really don't think that the depression changes as you get older, I think that it just gets worse. I've tried every single class of AD and none of them come near to making me feel like they did when I first started taking them. I believe that the more episodes you have things start going wrong further down the line.

Maybe there is a reduction in serotonin transporters and these decrease the older you get. Something like that anyway. I don't think it's a case of the depression changing anyway, I think it just gets worse, which is scary.

I hope that one day soon they find out more about what goes on in the brain during depression.


Kind Regards......Denise

 

Re: To Ed Uk

Posted by denise1966 on August 31, 2005, at 6:37:52

In reply to Re: Why do antidepressants make me feel worse? » denise190466, posted by ed_uk on August 29, 2005, at 12:38:22

Thanks Ed. I'm actually still feeling better since taking the Zyprexa on Friday, I'm hoping I'll continue to do so without having to take another Zyprexa.

But I'll bear Parnate in mind maybe in the future, I have a feeling though that I'll get way too much anxiety on it.

Denise

 

Re: To Ixus

Posted by denise1966 on August 31, 2005, at 6:40:47

In reply to Re: Why do antidepressants make me feel worse? » denise190466, posted by ixus on August 29, 2005, at 15:45:38

Hi Ixus,

Thanks, it makes me feel better knowing that I'm not the only one who experienced these symtoms on Nardil.

Denise

 

Re: To Declan

Posted by denise1966 on August 31, 2005, at 6:44:38

In reply to Re: Why do antidepressants make me feel worse?, posted by Declan on August 29, 2005, at 18:18:48

Hi Declan,

Thanks to the Zyprexa I took on Friday I'm feeling a lot better now, otherwise I don't what I would have done.

Anyway, I dropped the Nardil back to 60mg from 90mg, I don't think going straight onto 90mg to start with was such a good idea but I tend to always be really impatient for things to work.


Denise

 

Re: To Chairman_MAO

Posted by denise1966 on August 31, 2005, at 6:50:52

In reply to Re: Why do antidepressants make me feel worse? » denise190466, posted by Chairman_MAO on August 30, 2005, at 13:53:58

Hi,

Yes I guess your right, I just wish it was that simple, the more I read about depression the more confused, disillusioned and worried I get, it seems to be like searching for a needle in a hay stack. Rather than feeling hopeful and optimistic about the research they are doing I just feel more baffled and negative. For instance this research into BDNF they seem to be miles away from developing any drugs for it.

I thought Nardil did effect the Serotonin transporters, if not then what does it effect? I have dropped the NArdil from 90mg to 60mg and don't intend going up for a while, maybe not at all. I just thank God for Zyprexa it seemed to reset my brain after taking it, it always does, I wonder why.

How did you feel on phenelzine when you first started taking it?


Denise

 

Re: To Linkadge

Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2005, at 7:58:53

In reply to Re: To Linkadge, posted by denise1966 on August 31, 2005, at 6:33:23

You have to let go of the serotonin transporter theory. As chairman_MAO said Nardil increases serotonin, but has no effect on the serotonin transporter. ECT also does not effect the serotonin transporter. Perhaps you mean the serotonin receptors.

When celexa worked. I spent years convincing myself that I had a bad serotonin gene. But then the drug stopped working, and I am actually doing better *off* drugs as they only make me feel worse.


Depression can totally change. I was on celexa, that worked but then stopped working. I swiched to another SSRI (same class) which worked.

Ilene was just saying below that desipramine worked very well in the past when she was not under stress, but did't work in the future.

Another thing is that SSRI's can lower dopamine over time. That is why apathy sometimes sets in long after a drug was started. Sometimes the apathy responds to dose reductions of the SSRI. Brain chemistry is dependant on so many factors.

Depression can manifest itself in an entirely different way at different life stages, and so different drugs can be usefull.

My mother never drank coffee when she was 20 something cause it made her too jittery. But now that she doesn't work, she drinks it all the time! Whats up with that ?

Another reason why a particular drug may not work is because of the liver. Sometimes when a drug is taken for long periods of time the liver gets used to it an metabolizes it faster. (Ie metabolic tollerance to the drug.)

You've got to try *different* drugs, try TCA's try zoloft, prozac, TCA+SSRI combinations be creative.

Have you tried clomipramine ??

Linkadge

 

Re: To Chairman_MAO » denise1966

Posted by Chairman_MAO on August 31, 2005, at 16:49:10

In reply to Re: To Chairman_MAO, posted by denise1966 on August 31, 2005, at 6:50:52

It affects monoamine oxidase type A and B, which are responsible for the catabolism (breaking down) of serotonin and norepinephrine, and dopamine (type A), and dopamine and trace amines (type B).

When type A is inhibited by 80%, some profoundly antidepressant and anxiolytic effect occurs as a result of the CNS bringing itself back to homeostatis with the increased levels of neurotransmitter in the synaptic clefts.

The reuptake pumps are unaffected. Neuropsychopharm studies show that increased levels of MAO-A are present in those with anxiety and phobic states.

 

Re: To Chairman_MAO

Posted by linkadge on August 31, 2005, at 20:11:25

In reply to Re: To Chairman_MAO » denise1966, posted by Chairman_MAO on August 31, 2005, at 16:49:10

Unfortunately excessivly low MAO-A has been associated with agression in animals and humans alike. Perhaps in conjunction with abnormalities of the frontal cortex.

Linkadge

 

Re: To Linkadge

Posted by denise1966 on September 1, 2005, at 6:56:24

In reply to Re: To Linkadge, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2005, at 7:58:53

Linkadge,

OK I guess you have a point. But just to let you know I've already tried You've got to tried lots of different drugs as below.

Remeron - Mirtazapine

Sertraline (Zooloft)

Prozac and Prothiaden (tryciclic) - went up to such a high dose I ended up passing out at work.

Prozac and Lithium

Prozac and Lamictal

Tegretol

Seroxat - Which did help for two years then seemed to stop working.

Now back to Nardil for a months trial in the hope that when I switch back to Seroxat the Seroxat will work better.

By the way did you see my response to you about the anterior Cingulate?


Kind Regards.....Denise

 

Re: To Chairman_MAO

Posted by denise1966 on September 1, 2005, at 7:04:10

In reply to Re: To Chairman_MAO » denise1966, posted by Chairman_MAO on August 31, 2005, at 16:49:10

Chairman_MAO,

Thanks for this detailed explanation, I did sort of know how Nardil worked. However, I still would expect that the subsequent increase in serotonin would still need to be controlled by the reuptake pump. Surely it wouldn't just go straight into the brain and straight into the synapse?

Also, in general, how much Nardil do you need to take to inhibit type A by 80%.

It's really odd, last week when I had first started taking Nardil and was on 90mg I felt awful, felt really suicidal, drunk, couldn't walk in a straight line, really drowsy, speech was slurred and had absolutely no motivation. after taking Zyprexa last Friday felt better and decreased the NArdil to 60mg but now I feel sort of depressed again, no anxiety though (yet) although don't feel anything like as bad as I did last week, at least I can funtion. I've now been on Nardil for two weeks, thinking of going back up to 90mg again.

Denise

 

Re: To Chairman_MAO

Posted by linkadge on September 1, 2005, at 14:06:11

In reply to Re: To Chairman_MAO, posted by denise1966 on September 1, 2005, at 7:04:10

Yeah, I got your responce about the cingulate. Thanks it helped.

The zyprexa might be working to augment the nardil.

Other good combinations:

1) celexa/luvox + remeron
2) SSRI + nortryptaline
3) Nortyptaline
4) Low dose paroxetine + stimulant
5) Low dose paroxetine + mirapex
6) SSRI + Wellbutrin
7) SSRI + buspar
8) SSRI + pindolol
9) Pindolol + Lithium
10) Mirapex + Buspar
11) SSRI + Modafanil
12) Nortryptaline + Pindolol (good one)
13) Lithium + Nortryptaline (statistically most effective in post ECT relapse prevention)


I could go on.....


Linkadge


 

Re: To Linkadge

Posted by denise1966 on September 5, 2005, at 4:51:45

In reply to Re: To Chairman_MAO, posted by linkadge on September 1, 2005, at 14:06:11

Linkadge,

I could spend the rest of my life trying all these combinations out, hopefully I won't be on my deathbed at 70 having finally hit on the right combination :-)

Thanks anyway and I'll bear all of these things in mind once I've looked them up.

How are you anyway, how's church?


Denise

 

Re: To Linkadge

Posted by linkadge on September 5, 2005, at 8:49:31

In reply to Re: To Linkadge, posted by denise1966 on September 5, 2005, at 4:51:45

I'm not great. Church is ok.


Linkadge

 

Re: To Chairman_MAO » linkadge

Posted by Chairman_MAO on September 9, 2005, at 0:10:36

In reply to Re: To Chairman_MAO, posted by linkadge on August 31, 2005, at 20:11:25

What is "excessive" probably varies widely.

 

Re: To Chairman_MAO » denise1966

Posted by Chairman_MAO on September 9, 2005, at 0:12:43

In reply to Re: To Chairman_MAO, posted by denise1966 on September 1, 2005, at 7:04:10

In general, you need 1mg/kg bodyweight of Nardil for a robust antidepressant/anti-SP effect.

Some people get by with less, though. I weigh 86kg, and find that 60mg only helps with anxiety; it does little for depression, phobias, etc. 75mg/day works OK, and 90mg/day works very well. Just wish I could have sex, though ...


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