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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 13 to 37 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by 4WD on August 1, 2005, at 13:14:27
In reply to Do you know what pisses me off beyond belief??, posted by barosky on July 31, 2005, at 22:57:29
> People who use mind altering drugs for recreational purposes and exhibit very few if any adverse side effects in the long term. I used a very unpleasant drug perscribed by a doctor for depression only to have long lasting permanent problems while the pot smokers, binge drinkers I know are as sharp as they ever were. So much for that D.A.R.E crap, weed doesen't do anything to you face it, focus on where the damage IS BEING DONE.
>
> I've concluded that smoking some weed once in a while for therapuetic purposes would have left me more stable then that poison pink pill I ingested every day as an ignorant teenager.
>
> I've always stayed away from illicit drugs due to what they told me. I'd see my friends smoking up and would always think, didn't they listen anything those programs taught them, there going to be brain dead soon enough, but all that propaganda turned out to be wrong.
>
> I never thought a drug perscribed to a doctor would hurt me this much, now I am afraid to try ANYTHING, alochol, ciggerates, anything that alters your mind.
>
> I would have been better off doing illicit drugs rather then paxil, lets say I tried the recreational path and became unstable because of it , at least I didn't feel like an emotionless zombie and got some joy out of it.
>
> I just love how this stuff works out, the drugs that are suppose to be beneficial seem to corrupt one more then the illegal drugs..Just shows how much leverage the big companys like GSK have I guess..Just my two cents worth but recreational drug use is a large part of what got me where I am (depressed). Some of us definitely had consequences. I took prescription pain pills recreationally off and on for years. By the the last couple of years it was increasing my depression horribly. Prescription diet pills 30 years ago also caused a slide into depression.
So maybe some people can use without consequences. Not everybody though. You might have been worse off with the illicit drugs.
Marsha
Posted by john berk on August 1, 2005, at 13:34:40
In reply to Re: Do you know what pisses me off beyond belief??, posted by 4WD on August 1, 2005, at 13:14:27
hi!!
drinking alcohol was the best thing i have ever
tried that took away my ocd symptoms, and for the most part left my sexuality intact!! i used to drink almost every night, and still work full-time and was a runner!!
but alcoholism runs in my family, and it unfortunatly caught up with me. now i am on prozac, ocd is still bad, and i feel so much less motivated, it is incredible!! i long for those days when a six-pack was all i needed to make my world a happy place!! alcohol worked 3x better than any ssri, it's a shame drug company's can't come up with a drug as effective as a six-pack, lol!! >sigh< !! peace...john berk
Posted by Emily Elizabeth on August 1, 2005, at 15:06:04
In reply to Do you know what pisses me off beyond belief??, posted by barosky on July 31, 2005, at 22:57:29
The other thing that makes me really mad is that so many people (especially in the 18-25 age group) are actually more accepting of using illegal substances than using what a doc has rx'ed for you. Some of the biggest pot users I know are completely judgemental about people who take psychotropics. Do they think we would want to take this stuff if we weren't suffering?
EE
Posted by john berk on August 1, 2005, at 16:23:10
In reply to Re: Do you know what pisses me off beyond belief??, posted by Emily Elizabeth on August 1, 2005, at 15:06:04
Hi,
i completly agree with you, most young people are judgemental when it comes to drug use, and prescribed meds, i actually had a friend who couldn't beleive i took medication, and actually had the audacity to tell me i drank too much coffee in work, all the time while he was tokin' on a joint at break, a habit he beleived, [and you always here this unfounded, illogical argument, that "weed" is from nature, so god wanted us to enjoy it!!] my post about drinking beer was somewhat tongue in cheek,[but true] and my gripe is that the drug companies can not find something more effective and side-effect free, than the beer i used to self-medicate at the time.
i don't condone that for most people, and i totally understand how you feel, this part of life seems totally unfair!! i wish you much luck in the future...john [btw, emily is a very beautiful name, my neice is emily rose!!]
Posted by med_empowered on August 1, 2005, at 16:57:08
In reply to Re: Do you know what pisses me off beyond belief?? » Emily Elizabeth, posted by john berk on August 1, 2005, at 16:23:10
hey! OK, calling illicit drug users "junkies" is a little harsh, but I did it for a reason--I'm *sick* of these self-righteous stoners and cokeheads telling me what I "really need" or what "my real problem is". Psychiatric meds have some *serious* failings, but I think part of the problem is that shrinks and judgemental junkies kind of take similar attitudes towards people--that they know what's wrong with or without actually listening, and that their preferred method of handling problems is THE way to go about it. Its absolutely ridiculous. I personally see ALL drugs are pretty much the same--chemicls taken to alter (hopefully positively) one's current mental state-- and I think that kind of view cuts through the BS of both psychiatry ("Prozac corrects a chemical imbalance in the brain..."--right, I have a Prozac deficiency) and amongst some illicit drug users ("pot is from nature, so its good, always good, and RX drugs are bad and for the weak, blah blah blah"). I think one's "drug(s) of choice" would best be based on circumstances and individual factors. For exmaple, for me pot can make anxiety worse if I'm having a problem already, so I'd opt for a Klonopin or Tranxene instead of puffing on a joint. On the other hand, anti-depressants havent really done the trick for me, so I may end up smoking now and then and perhaps taking shrooms rarely, whereas other people might be better served by Cymbalta or something. I don't think we have to view this as an either/or distinction; that distinction is one that has been artifically created by the (expensive, unsuccessful, racist) "War on Drugs" (AKA: "War on Minorities," "War on Civil Liberties").
Posted by ed_uk on August 1, 2005, at 17:08:29
In reply to judgemental junkies, posted by med_empowered on August 1, 2005, at 16:57:08
GO MED_EMPOWERED!!
~Ed
Posted by john berk on August 1, 2005, at 17:15:54
In reply to judgemental junkies, posted by med_empowered on August 1, 2005, at 16:57:08
in total agreement here, there doesn't seem to be a "middle" ground, and the pysch docs and "judgemental junkies are one and the same at times!! i think you are right,med_empowered, it all depends on the person and the circumstances!!
klonopin works wonders for me, prozac doesn't, or i should say hasn't done anything lately for my depression, when in the past, drinking was like a miracle solution!! my brother smokes pot twice a week, just to help him mellow out from his ocd, and i don't blame him a bit. he tryed effexor and actually had auditory hallucinations trying to discontinue 75 mgs., the highest he could tolerate!! i have read that a dopamine enhancing drug is now banned in europe, because the u.s. thought it a tad too good for people, it helped depression, and enhanced sexuality, so we are all being duped to some extent, only certain drugs are "good" for us, if we know what's good for us, i suppose. in actuality, if my ocd or depression became too devasting, i would try all means to alleviate my "pain" including drugs not sanctioned by our government!! but i will continue to try with traditional means for now, i.e. [exercise, diet and therapy, hmmm..and prozac or possibly a tca, until this becomes too hard to handle!! you made a great point, peace...john
Posted by linkadge on August 1, 2005, at 17:54:42
In reply to Re: judgemental junkies » med_empowered, posted by john berk on August 1, 2005, at 17:15:54
The problem is that there are a lot of people who use psychiatric meds who don't really need them.
As such, I think it is becoming belief that people who use psychiatric meds aren't really sick at all, but just trying to get a legal high.
Since it is prescribed so liberally, the validity of a real psychiatric problem is completely trashed.
Everybody has problems, and most people get over it through some method. What bothers me is when people try to extend their method to everybody else.
Those are sometimes the most dangerous people. The ones who have had a psychatric problems and who have got better on their own. They think that "if they can do it, everybody can".
Its almost like it is the next step in the sence of personal control. Once you think you have your problems under controll then you start to think you can solve everyone else's problems.
Linkadge
Posted by willyee on August 1, 2005, at 20:59:27
In reply to Re: Do you know what pisses me off beyond belief??, posted by Emily Elizabeth on August 1, 2005, at 15:06:04
> The other thing that makes me really mad is that so many people (especially in the 18-25 age group) are actually more accepting of using illegal substances than using what a doc has rx'ed for you. Some of the biggest pot users I know are completely judgemental about people who take psychotropics. Do they think we would want to take this stuff if we weren't suffering?
>
> EE
Can we any longer blame people for wanting to stick with the nightly joint over a prescribed medication......i think thats just it,we dont see its not medication,its still DRUGS,just more controlled and subtle in its onset and action.A medication in my view is desgined to attactk a KNOWN problem,and actualy treat or fix the problem,in our case our problems are only theory,and not only is the action of the medication theory,but how well its works is the same.
They cant not say for sure these medications are treating us.
My view is i will never knock someone for whatever they use,IF it truly helps them,meaning helps them therputicaly.
I think its absurd for me to be critical of a illicit drug user using it to treat a condition and think any better of myself simply because mines is prescribed.
Vice versa as well,for example im not a fan at all of ssris,but if someone told me it is helping them i would not unload a bunch of negativity on them,instead id think they were very lucky to find something that helps period.So if that beer at night helps,or that small joint,and u are truly stable,rock on!
Posted by Kon on August 1, 2005, at 22:06:29
In reply to Do you know what pisses me off beyond belief??, posted by barosky on July 31, 2005, at 22:57:29
I guess my experience is different. The few people/friends that I know that have use mind altering drugs (alcohol, pot, narcotics, etc.) for recreational purposes for many years are either dead, vegetables or in pretty bad circumstance (psychological, financial or otherwise).
Posted by alexandra_k on August 2, 2005, at 0:16:29
In reply to Re: Do you know what pisses me off beyond belief??, posted by Kon on August 1, 2005, at 22:06:29
I guess that just like how you have to experiment with prescription drugs to find out what (if anything) is beneficial for you you would need to experiment with non-prescription drugs to find out what (if anything) is beneficial for you.
Because different people can respond quite differently to the same drug.
Posted by barosky on August 2, 2005, at 1:49:48
In reply to Re: judgemental junkies, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2005, at 17:54:42
> The problem is that there are a lot of people who use psychiatric meds who don't really need them.
>
> As such, I think it is becoming belief that people who use psychiatric meds aren't really sick at all, but just trying to get a legal high.
>
> Since it is prescribed so liberally, the validity of a real psychiatric problem is completely trashed.
>
> Everybody has problems, and most people get over it through some method. What bothers me is when people try to extend their method to everybody else.
>
> Those are sometimes the most dangerous people. The ones who have had a psychatric problems and who have got better on their own. They think that "if they can do it, everybody can".
>
> Its almost like it is the next step in the sence of personal control. Once you think you have your problems under controll then you start to think you can solve everyone else's problems.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
I agree, I think meds should be a last resort, meds lead to many people on a darker path and it's sad because the medication treatment in most cases wasn't all that necessary.
Posted by gabbii on August 2, 2005, at 17:10:12
In reply to Re: judgemental junkies, posted by linkadge on August 1, 2005, at 17:54:42
> The problem is that there are a lot of people who use psychiatric meds who don't really need them.
>
How are you able to decide who needs them and who does not? How did you come to the conclusion that "lots of people" who use psychiatric meds don't really need them?
Posted by gabbii on August 2, 2005, at 17:11:05
In reply to judgemental junkies, posted by med_empowered on August 1, 2005, at 16:57:08
Posted by Glydin on August 2, 2005, at 20:00:07
In reply to Re: judgemental junkies, posted by gabbii on August 2, 2005, at 17:10:12
Very true!!
I think we have to be very, very careful when we start judging some else's mental health. I believe most mental wellness or unwellness is a subjective finding based on thoughts and feelings.... for most folks. Yes, there are tools in place to assess some disorders and have some objective findings - maybe they are valid, maybe they are not.
I also think in terms of folks using illicit or RXed meds, there's a reason for that and I generally think there's a mental - emotional concern that is being addressed.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 2, 2005, at 20:02:24
In reply to Re: judgemental junkies » gabbii, posted by Glydin on August 2, 2005, at 20:00:07
behaviours behaviours behaviours...
note that the dx criteria are for the most part a list of BEHAVIOURAL symptoms.
that gives us an OBJECTIVE (or relatively objective) criteria for 'getting better' and for that matter 'getting worse'.
Posted by linkadge on August 2, 2005, at 20:13:24
In reply to Re: judgemental junkies, posted by gabbii on August 2, 2005, at 17:10:12
I would just judge by the increase in their prescription rates. Perhaps we're becoming more depressed as a nation, or more accepting of medications to solve our problems.
You could argue that we are becoming better at detecting problems, but I would argue that the drug companies are getting better at marketing and dispensing the drugs.I probably would not have had to start the meds if I was introduced to some of the less drastic alternatives. I am addicted to them now, and theres not much that can change that.
I was prescribed a drug to essentially mask burnout. Some valium would probably have done less dammage. At least I can get off valium.
There will always be those who need the drug, those who kind of need the drug, and those who don't need it.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on August 2, 2005, at 20:16:56
In reply to Re: judgemental junkies » gabbii, posted by Glydin on August 2, 2005, at 20:00:07
"I also think in terms of folks using illicit or RXed meds, there's a reason for that and I generally think there's a mental - emotional concern that is being addressed. "
I agree with you, but when I say, "shouldn't be on a med" I am really reffering to myself. IMO if a less drastic, less invasive alternative exists then it should be explored. Even RX'd drugs are hardcore, and should't be prescribed unless all other alternatives have been attempted.
Just my oppinion of course.
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on August 2, 2005, at 20:53:26
In reply to Re: judgemental junkies, posted by gabbii on August 2, 2005, at 17:10:12
The reason that a lot of people use psych meds but don't *really* need them is just the inverse of why people suffer pain and get no narcotics. It simply relates to the "abuse potential" of the drug. I need double quotation marks there to express the aqppropriate irony.
I spent a couple of years on AP drugs in my late teens simply because they were Rxd for me and I was silly enough not to understand that what I was looking for was something psychiatry could not deliver.
No question of abuse though.
Declan
Posted by Glydin on August 2, 2005, at 20:54:54
In reply to Re: judgemental junkies, posted by linkadge on August 2, 2005, at 20:13:24
I would not argue that pharm companies aren't good at what they are trying to "sell". I can only speak from my personal view that I KNEW things were not right for me and it was not something anyone else could have accurately assessed for me. I tried many paths before meds. I did not need an ad or any other source nor would I have been convinced by such. Believe me, this was not the path I wanted, but it has worked out for me. I'm not defending it or dissing it, it's just what has worked for me.
Posted by Glydin on August 2, 2005, at 20:56:02
In reply to Re: judgemental junkies, posted by alexandra_k on August 2, 2005, at 20:02:24
My findings for me were quite subjective.
Posted by linkadge on August 2, 2005, at 21:08:36
In reply to Re: judgemental junkies » linkadge, posted by Glydin on August 2, 2005, at 20:54:54
I am not saying the meds are not usefull for some people, I am saying that there are alternatives that would work very well for many people which do not cary with them some of the problems that conventional meds can sometimes cary.
Another angle is this. Consider the many people on effexor who have failed attempts to discontinue. Technically, they "shouldn't be on the meds" at this point, but need to be for one reason or another.
Just like after WWII, there were a lot of people addicted to amphetamines who shouldn't have been.
Linkadge
Posted by sleepygirl on August 3, 2005, at 11:50:36
In reply to Re: judgemental junkies » Glydin, posted by linkadge on August 2, 2005, at 21:08:36
I smoked marijuana everyday for a year plus and it was wonderful at curbing the anxiety. The problem though is that it was a bit too wonderful, and anxiety emerges without the marijuana (But it was pretty darn easy to stop and you can't say that with effexor right!!). Now that I take effexor and seroquel, discontinued klonopin, I find that the mellowing effects are somewhat reminiscent of the marijuana, so it makes me wonder what the best path is ??? I guess a little apathy is a good thing (for me anyway) but too much makes you baked!
Posted by linkadge on August 3, 2005, at 15:51:16
In reply to Re: judgemental junkies, posted by sleepygirl on August 3, 2005, at 11:50:36
Anandamide is a powerful anticholinergic antianxiety agent. The anti-anxiety effects of pot are thought to work through anandamide neurotransmission.
see:
http://cannabis.net/anandamide-hydrolysis.html
But the thing I noticed with pot, was that I didn't get all the crazy akathesia like side effects, that made me want to pull my hair out.
It actually made me feel more comfortable in my own body.
Linkadge
Posted by Mr.Scott on August 5, 2005, at 19:49:43
In reply to Re: judgemental junkies, posted by alexandra_k on August 2, 2005, at 20:02:24
I personally have little faith in psychiatric medications (and the pharma industry) even though I take them...however it has also been my experience that street drugs (for many people) when used to aid a primary psychiatric/psychological problem only lead to worse things happening down the road. The consequences of addiction plus depression or bipolar are truly devastating!
I'd rather accept the shortcomings of my brain chemistry and of psychiatry than compound them with an addiction to alcohol or cocaine. I have found good relief from depression through a long process of trial and error and exercising patience. Over the years I was for a while distracted by street drugs from this process. I don't know any maintenance drug user be it pot, alcohol, or crack cocaine, who has anything like I want for myself. I have known so many, and only the occassional social or casual user seems to benefit temporarily from smoking a joint and having a few drinks. Those people also tend to be fit mentally and aren't seeking solutions in these substances like I do in psychiatric medications (very specific solutions, not an escape from the pain of the way I choose to live my life!)
Mr. Scott
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