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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 16:11:05
Hi
We have had some posts about how Nardil is more of a mood brightner than Parnate. I started to do some searching and it that Parnate isn't as effective for depression with melancholy. And they are right! That's exactly what it doesn't relieve for ME. I didn't know how to explain it but melancholy is perfect.
I didn't find any document that explained why this is so, but I did find it cited in numerous places.
I am glad I have a more specific way to describe how I feel or what part of the depression is "left over".
Maxime
Posted by SLS on May 29, 2005, at 16:24:15
In reply to Parnate not so good for melancholy, posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 16:11:05
> Hi
>
> We have had some posts about how Nardil is more of a mood brightner than Parnate. I started to do some searching and it that Parnate isn't as effective for depression with melancholy. And they are right! That's exactly what it doesn't relieve for ME. I didn't know how to explain it but melancholy is perfect.
>
> I didn't find any document that explained why this is so, but I did find it cited in numerous places.
>
> I am glad I have a more specific way to describe how I feel or what part of the depression is "left over".
>
> Maxime
It is my belief that Nardil is more serotonergic than Parnate. I believe this makes a significant difference in its psychotropic effects. Serotonergics seem to be better "mood-brighteners" than noradrenergics. Noradrenergics might convey more energy - as does Parnate - but without serotonin, there is a lack of "feeling good" about things. Nardil also affects GABA systems. However, I could only guess as to whether this contributes to its anti-melancholic profile. It might prevent hyperactivity in the subgenual cingulate.
- Scott
Posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 16:42:45
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy, posted by SLS on May 29, 2005, at 16:24:15
So if I added Trytophan, it might help? I know it's contraindicated but I wonder if it's one of those contraindications that you can ignore - LOL!
What would your suggestion be Scott?
Maxime
>
> It is my belief that Nardil is more serotonergic than Parnate. I believe this makes a significant difference in its psychotropic effects. Serotonergics seem to be better "mood-brighteners" than noradrenergics. Noradrenergics might convey more energy - as does Parnate - but without serotonin, there is a lack of "feeling good" about things. Nardil also affects GABA systems. However, I could only guess as to whether this contributes to its anti-melancholic profile. It might prevent hyperactivity in the subgenual cingulate.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by willyee on May 29, 2005, at 16:52:50
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy » SLS, posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 16:42:45
> So if I added Trytophan, it might help? I know it's contraindicated but I wonder if it's one of those contraindications that you can ignore - LOL!
>
> What would your suggestion be Scott?
>
> Maxime
>
>
>
> >
> > It is my belief that Nardil is more serotonergic than Parnate. I believe this makes a significant difference in its psychotropic effects. Serotonergics seem to be better "mood-brighteners" than noradrenergics. Noradrenergics might convey more energy - as does Parnate - but without serotonin, there is a lack of "feeling good" about things. Nardil also affects GABA systems. However, I could only guess as to whether this contributes to its anti-melancholic profile. It might prevent hyperactivity in the subgenual cingulate.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>Might why again i had such a response to parnate after stopping nardil without a washout.
I know its taboo but i am curious of the effect of taking both.All i know is if parnate responded like that everyday it would be THE med.Also to your other post,im limited to getting deep into pharmocology,but the way parnate leaves u feeling empty the next day as if its all gone and u have to start the build up all over again is annoying to say the least,and also makes it feel somewhat reversable where as nardil seemed to have a im here feeliing,for me however alone it just wasnt helping.
Posted by Declan on May 29, 2005, at 17:06:32
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy » SLS, posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 16:42:45
Hi Maxime
Maybe 30 years ago I read of experiments in which tryptophan was added to MAOIs, and as I recall the AD effect was made stronger. Tried to find them but no luck.
Declan
Posted by linkadge on May 29, 2005, at 17:10:24
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy, posted by Declan on May 29, 2005, at 17:06:32
Yes, I did not find that panate was a mood brightener. I would still call it an antidepressant becuase one way or another it got the ball rolling, but it was definately coarser than an SSRI.
Linkadge
Posted by willyee on May 29, 2005, at 17:17:52
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy, posted by Declan on May 29, 2005, at 17:06:32
> Hi Maxime
> Maybe 30 years ago I read of experiments in which tryptophan was added to MAOIs, and as I recall the AD effect was made stronger. Tried to find them but no luck.
> DeclanI just read the other day where trials were used that not only broke the no no rule of using trypto,they went one step further and combined 5htp with postive response,i dident save it sheesh
Posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 19:25:13
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy, posted by Declan on May 29, 2005, at 17:06:32
> Hi Maxime
> Maybe 30 years ago I read of experiments in which tryptophan was added to MAOIs, and as I recall the AD effect was made stronger. Tried to find them but no luck.
> DeclanThanks for trying Declan! I least I know it has been done. I will talk to pdoc about it. I will do a search myself and if I find anything I will post it.
Maxime
Posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 19:27:11
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy, posted by willyee on May 29, 2005, at 17:17:52
Well if you can find the trypto one at any time, please post it. I will search myself as well.
Thanks!
Maxime
> I just read the other day where trials were used that not only broke the no no rule of using trypto,they went one step further and combined 5htp with postive response,i dident save it sheesh
>
>
Posted by SLS on May 29, 2005, at 19:32:56
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy » SLS, posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 16:42:45
> So if I added Trytophan, it might help? I know it's contraindicated but I wonder if it's one of those contraindications that you can ignore - LOL!
>
> What would your suggestion be Scott?Take 75mg of Nardil and live happily ever after... :-)
Regarding the use of 5-HTP or tryptophan, I am reluctant to suggest to you outright that you combine it with Nardil. However, if you were to decide to do it anyway, I would give you my wink of approval.
;-)
- Scott
> > It is my belief that Nardil is more serotonergic than Parnate. I believe this makes a significant difference in its psychotropic effects. Serotonergics seem to be better "mood-brighteners" than noradrenergics. Noradrenergics might convey more energy - as does Parnate - but without serotonin, there is a lack of "feeling good" about things. Nardil also affects GABA systems. However, I could only guess as to whether this contributes to its anti-melancholic profile. It might prevent hyperactivity in the subgenual cingulate.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
Posted by Mr.Scott on May 29, 2005, at 19:37:15
In reply to Parnate not so good for melancholy, posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 16:11:05
Parnate has a profile not too different from amphetamine and is used frequently in chronic atypical depression or dysthymia. It is not believed to be 'as' effective for Major Depressive Disorder as Nardil, which is however also thought particularly good for atypical manifestations of depression.
I found it highly stimulating...even agitating, wheras Nardil was more soothing and anti-anxiety.
Scott
Posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 20:12:22
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy » SLS, posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 16:42:45
Scott you are right (sort of)! I came across an article that said that Amitryptaline and MAOI are not as serotonergic as ALL other antidepressant.
Maxime
> So if I added Trytophan, it might help? I know it's contraindicated but I wonder if it's one of those contraindications that you can ignore - LOL!
>
> What would your suggestion be Scott?
>
> Maxime
>
>
>
> >
> > It is my belief that Nardil is more serotonergic than Parnate. I believe this makes a significant difference in its psychotropic effects. Serotonergics seem to be better "mood-brighteners" than noradrenergics. Noradrenergics might convey more energy - as does Parnate - but without serotonin, there is a lack of "feeling good" about things. Nardil also affects GABA systems. However, I could only guess as to whether this contributes to its anti-melancholic profile. It might prevent hyperactivity in the subgenual cingulate.
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
>
Posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 21:09:15
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy » Maxime, posted by SLS on May 29, 2005, at 19:32:56
> Take 75mg of Nardil and live happily ever after... :-)
>
> Regarding the use of 5-HTP or tryptophan, I am reluctant to suggest to you outright that you combine it with Nardil. However, if you were to decide to do it anyway, I would give you my wink of approval.
>
> ;-)
>
>
> - ScottActually I was thinking of combining it with the Parnate. I know this will sound stupid to anyone who has never had an eating disorder, but taking a medication where significant weight gain is a risk, and it is not do-able. Not only would it freak me out mentally but it would make my eating disoder even worse which would be very dangerous. I just can't do it.
Maxime
Posted by willyee on May 29, 2005, at 22:03:09
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy » SLS, posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 21:09:15
> > Take 75mg of Nardil and live happily ever after... :-)
> >
> > Regarding the use of 5-HTP or tryptophan, I am reluctant to suggest to you outright that you combine it with Nardil. However, if you were to decide to do it anyway, I would give you my wink of approval.
> >
> > ;-)
> >
> >
> > - Scott
>
> Actually I was thinking of combining it with the Parnate. I know this will sound stupid to anyone who has never had an eating disorder, but taking a medication where significant weight gain is a risk, and it is not do-able. Not only would it freak me out mentally but it would make my eating disoder even worse which would be very dangerous. I just can't do it.
>
> MaximeI found what i saw,it doesent pre tain to depression per say,but it does mention the combining of an Maoi and 5htp heres the link and a snippet.
http://www.fibromyalgiacfsstore.com/healthnews305.html
Studies comparing 5HTP to prescription antidepressants generally used to treat FMS, including tricyclic (amitriptyline) and SSRIs, showed 5HTP to be as or more effective than prescription medications.(18)
One European study showed that the combination of MAOIs, such as Nardil or Parnate, with 5HTP significantly improved FMS symptoms, whereas other antidepressant treatments were not effective. The doctors conducting this study stated that a natural analgesic (pain blocking) effect occurred when serotonin and norepinephrine levels were enhanced in the brain. More norepinephrine means more energy and improved mood. Other tests in Europe show tryptophan to be just as effective in treating depression as the prescription drugs Elavil and Tofranil, which have side effects.(19)p.s my email is brklyn234@yahoo.com
Posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 22:21:04
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy, posted by willyee on May 29, 2005, at 22:03:09
Perfect! Thank you! All I could find was "danger, danger, danger".
Maxime
>
> I found what i saw,it doesent pre tain to depression per say,but it does mention the combining of an Maoi and 5htp heres the link and a snippet.
>
> http://www.fibromyalgiacfsstore.com/healthnews305.html
>
>
> Studies comparing 5HTP to prescription antidepressants generally used to treat FMS, including tricyclic (amitriptyline) and SSRIs, showed 5HTP to be as or more effective than prescription medications.(18)
> One European study showed that the combination of MAOIs, such as Nardil or Parnate, with 5HTP significantly improved FMS symptoms, whereas other antidepressant treatments were not effective. The doctors conducting this study stated that a natural analgesic (pain blocking) effect occurred when serotonin and norepinephrine levels were enhanced in the brain. More norepinephrine means more energy and improved mood. Other tests in Europe show tryptophan to be just as effective in treating depression as the prescription drugs Elavil and Tofranil, which have side effects.(19)
>
>
>
> p.s my email is brklyn234@yahoo.com
>
>
>
Posted by Declan on May 30, 2005, at 2:18:48
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy, posted by linkadge on May 29, 2005, at 17:10:24
Hi Link
What do you mean by "coarser" than an SSRI? (I've never taken one)
Declan
Posted by Chairman_MAO on May 30, 2005, at 20:22:19
In reply to Parnate not so good for melancholy, posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 16:11:05
If you can, you may want to try augmenting it with buprenorphine or a TCA (I would go with desipramine) before you give it up entirely. NE reuptake inhibitors work well for melancholy.
Posted by Maxime on May 31, 2005, at 9:44:33
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy » Maxime, posted by Chairman_MAO on May 30, 2005, at 20:22:19
> If you can, you may want to try augmenting it with buprenorphine or a TCA (I would go with desipramine) before you give it up entirely. NE reuptake inhibitors work well for melancholy.
Thanks. I took Desipramine on it's own and I lactated at 75 mg. I can try a lower dose and if it does any good at all. Or I can look into the buprenorphine ...
Maxime
Posted by yesac on May 31, 2005, at 12:21:07
In reply to Parnate not so good for melancholy, posted by Maxime on May 29, 2005, at 16:11:05
I didn't read all the follow up posts, so I don't know what other people said, but I just wanted to talk about my experience on Parnate...
Parnate made me feel terrible. It is the only antidepressant that actually made me MORE DEPRESSED. A lot of them simply didn't do anything, and several of them made me more agitated and irritable. But Parnate really brought me down. I just felt an overwhelming sense of gloom, I guess you could call it. I also gained like 10 pounds.
I know some people love it, but I hated it. It doesn't surprise me that it didn't help with your melancholy. I'm not sure if I have a melancholic depression, but if I don't then Parnate gave it to me.
Posted by Maxime on May 31, 2005, at 19:09:16
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy, posted by yesac on May 31, 2005, at 12:21:07
Hi, I am sorry your experience was so bad. Actually Parnate is the best AD I have ever been on, but it doesn't bring me full relief. I need to add something to it and I am trying to figure out what. So I actually like it, I just need to improve it.
Maxime
> I didn't read all the follow up posts, so I don't know what other people said, but I just wanted to talk about my experience on Parnate...
>
> Parnate made me feel terrible. It is the only antidepressant that actually made me MORE DEPRESSED. A lot of them simply didn't do anything, and several of them made me more agitated and irritable. But Parnate really brought me down. I just felt an overwhelming sense of gloom, I guess you could call it. I also gained like 10 pounds.
>
> I know some people love it, but I hated it. It doesn't surprise me that it didn't help with your melancholy. I'm not sure if I have a melancholic depression, but if I don't then Parnate gave it to me.
Posted by yesac on May 31, 2005, at 19:51:07
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy » yesac, posted by Maxime on May 31, 2005, at 19:09:16
> Hi, I am sorry your experience was so bad. Actually Parnate is the best AD I have ever been on, but it doesn't bring me full relief. I need to add something to it and I am trying to figure out what. So I actually like it, I just need to improve it.
Hmmm. Well that's cool. It just goes to show how different everyone is.I'm not sure that any antidepressant exists that can actually bring full relief. Maybe for some people, but I think most people probably need more than one drug to really address all of their symptoms.
Posted by 4WD on May 31, 2005, at 22:37:34
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy » Maxime, posted by Chairman_MAO on May 30, 2005, at 20:22:19
> If you can, you may want to try augmenting it with buprenorphine or a TCA (I would go with desipramine) before you give it up entirely. NE reuptake inhibitors work well for melancholy.
In my case, they didn't work so well for anxiety, though.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on June 1, 2005, at 21:45:56
In reply to Re: Parnate not so good for melancholy » Chairman_MAO, posted by Maxime on May 31, 2005, at 9:44:33
A med that would be easier to get if you are in the US is Dostinex (potent selective (I think) D2 agonist), which would likely do the trick, as well. It's very good for anhedonia. It has a VERY mild side effect profile (YMMV of course) in my experience.
Best of luck with the euthymia thing. ;)
--cm
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