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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by chess on March 3, 2005, at 22:42:29
SSRIs (prozac, lexapro) increase the effect of serotonin in the brain, and LSD also increases the effect of serotonin in the brain, but SSRI's don't cause hallucinations like LSD does. Anyone know why LSD has a hallucinagenic effect but SSRIs don't even though they both increase the effect serotonin in the brain?
Posted by mike13 on March 3, 2005, at 23:46:20
In reply to why is LSD hallucinagenic and SSRIs are not?, posted by chess on March 3, 2005, at 22:42:29
LSD increases serotonin by making more of it.. SSRI'S increase serotonin by blocking the reuptake.. there's the key difference I think.. some thing when it comes to MDMA
Posted by TheOutsider on March 4, 2005, at 5:35:07
In reply to Re: why is LSD hallucinagenic and SSRIs are not?, posted by mike13 on March 3, 2005, at 23:46:20
> LSD increases serotonin by making more of it.. SSRI'S increase serotonin by blocking the reuptake.. there's the key difference I think.. some thing when it comes to MDMA
I Don't mean to be rude Mike but I think LSD works by acting as an Agonist and Antagonist at Seratonin receptors, rather than by facilitating Seratonin transmition as MDMA does...
Posted by chess on March 4, 2005, at 7:13:33
In reply to Re: why is LSD hallucinagenic and SSRIs are not?, posted by TheOutsider on March 4, 2005, at 5:35:07
I found this quote on the web, does it mean that LSD is hallucinagenic because it has more of an intense effect on serotonin receptors than SSRIs do? ... "Modern psychiatry uses drugs affecting the same brain systems as psychedelics, which became notorious as "recreational drugs" in the 1960s. Antidepressants in the selective serotonin-reuptake-inhibitor (SSRI) class (e.g., Prozac®, Paxil®, Celexa®) extend the effects of serotonin, a brain chemical involved in the modulation of depression, euphoria, and appetite. Hallucinogens also interact with serotonin, but as serotonin agonists they work differently than SSRI's by acting on neurotransmitter receptors in a similar manner but more so 'effectively', pushing the serotonin system into overdrive", according to Dr. Nichols, professor of pharmacology and medicinal chemistry, Purdue University."
> > LSD increases serotonin by making more of it.. SSRI'S increase serotonin by blocking the reuptake.. there's the key difference I think.. some thing when it comes to MDMA
>
> I Don't mean to be rude Mike but I think LSD works by acting as an Agonist and Antagonist at Seratonin receptors, rather than by facilitating Seratonin transmition as MDMA does...
Posted by linkadge on March 4, 2005, at 7:49:35
In reply to Re: why is LSD hallucinagenic and SSRIs are not?, posted by chess on March 4, 2005, at 7:13:33
LSD acts as a much more potent agonist of certain serotonin receptors (ie 5-ht2a) than do the SSRI's.
Some former LSD users report "similar" feelings from the SSRI's. Ie enhanced sence of self-awareness.
I and a few people I know, have actually experienced some visual distortions on the drugs.
Linkadge
Posted by chess on March 4, 2005, at 9:22:21
In reply to Re: why is LSD hallucinagenic and SSRIs are not?, posted by linkadge on March 4, 2005, at 7:49:35
Linkadge, so it's a matter of LSD having a higher potency of being an agonist at the 5ht2a receptor that makes it hallucinogenic, and that SSRIs don't potentiate the 5ht2a receptor as much as LSD does which is why the SSRIs are not hallucinogenic?
Also, when you say that you had some visual distortions from an SSRI, were you on a high dose of the SSRI?
I ask all this because I just started taking Lexapro 20mg, and I'm kind of scared about taking it because I've always been anti-drug because I've never liked feeling out-of-control or high or euphoric or anything like that from a drug, some people I guess can handle or even enjoy the effects from LSD or marijuana but for me it's a scary feeling that makes me panic, I have control issues with drugs and medications and I'm trying to make sure that Lexapro won't cause me to start hallucinating or lose control of myself.
Thanks> LSD acts as a much more potent agonist of certain serotonin receptors (ie 5-ht2a) than do the SSRI's.
>
> Some former LSD users report "similar" feelings from the SSRI's. Ie enhanced sence of self-awareness.
>
> I and a few people I know, have actually experienced some visual distortions on the drugs.
>
> Linkadge
>
>
>
Posted by linkadge on March 4, 2005, at 10:03:40
In reply to Re: why is LSD hallucinagenic and SSRIs are not? » linkadge, posted by chess on March 4, 2005, at 9:22:21
No its not that bad, and it only happened at the high doses.
They don't really make you loose controll, like most psychiatric drugs, if they work, they will help you gain contoll.
I wasn't halucinating, as much as I had some strange effects like the following.
All of a sudden, I lost the sence of difference between what was human and what was nonhuman. Ie I started to feel like the tree's were human, and living. Also some perceptual distortions. I found that SSRI's make everything look small, and far away. They also made me feel totally disconnected from the world. Not in a bad way, but I felt like I was totally separate from my problems, like I was looking down on them from outer space.
Linkadge
Posted by Spriggy on March 4, 2005, at 12:54:04
In reply to Re: why is LSD hallucinagenic and SSRIs are not?, posted by linkadge on March 4, 2005, at 10:03:40
That explains to me why I hallucinated on Lexapro.Once, when I was a teen, I had a high fever (and strep throat) and I saw Mr. Clean standing in the corner by the Christmas tree.
Other than that, I had never hallucinated before.
While on Lexapro, I once sat on my couch and saw a banner hanging on the wall that read, " HOMEWORK." I stood up to take it down (wondering why in the world my husband put it there, ROFL) before I realized it was a hallucination.
Another time on it, I had a very strange "out of body" experience. I was once again laying on the couch (yeah, I did that a lot while on Lexapro, ROFL), and I LITERALLY saw myself sit up and stare down at my body lying there.
It was the strangest thing I've ever experienced in all my life (well besides giving birth twice).
I also experienced similar things as linkadge described.
Many moments on Lexapro I had derealization. things seemed farther away than they were.I could only imagine it was how someone would feel on a bad acid trip- then I had to wonder why in the world ANYONE would deliberately want to do that to themselves.
I'm glad I wasn't born and alive in the 60's, I would not have fit in.
ROFL
Posted by MM on March 4, 2005, at 21:14:48
In reply to well I did hallucinate on Lexapro, posted by Spriggy on March 4, 2005, at 12:54:04
The SSRI's remind me of LSD, like I'm almost tripping yet a little more coherent, but I never did hallucinate (on either). At the most I saw trails (on both). The SSRI's were very obviously not the same drug, nor as intense though.
Posted by anodyne on March 8, 2005, at 15:04:57
In reply to Re: why is LSD hallucinagenic and SSRIs are not? » linkadge, posted by chess on March 4, 2005, at 9:22:21
In response to the the loss of control factor with SSRIs, I was hoping someone might have an idea. I have Social Phobia and this thread struck a chord with me.
As someone who experimented with LSD years ago, I really didn't like the loss of control feeling it gave me and this is what almost every Seratonin based med does for me.
I have tried so many SSRIs and even Nardil and had to quit them all because I feel like I am having a mild LSD experience - this is also exactly what my anxiety feels like when it is really bad. This made me wonder if my anxiety was somehow realted to my Seratonin system being out of whack.
Does anyone know if there is an AD (I actually have an anxiety problem so an anti-anxiety) that doesn't involve Seratonin (or works differently than other SSRIs) but is also non-stimulating (stims make me VERY anxious)? I have tried Wellbutrin and it did not make me feel this way but didn't do much for my anxiety either.
Benzos and AEDs (Keppra,Topamax,Nuerontin) work okay for me but I hate the sedation and or "dumb" factor. Klonopin works wonders but tends to make me feel down after a couple of months.
ANY ideas would be greatly appreciated!!
-Dan
Posted by MM on March 8, 2005, at 15:21:46
In reply to Non Seratonin Related Options, posted by anodyne on March 8, 2005, at 15:04:57
Have you tried a combination? Like Wellbutrin and Klonopin?
"I have tried so many SSRIs and even Nardil and had to quit them all because I feel like I am having a mild LSD experience - this is also exactly what my anxiety feels like when it is really bad." Me too (the anxiety feeling like an LSD experience).
Posted by anodyne on March 8, 2005, at 15:29:01
In reply to Re: Non Seratonin Related Options » anodyne, posted by MM on March 8, 2005, at 15:21:46
> Have you tried a combination? Like Wellbutrin and Klonopin?
>
> "I have tried so many SSRIs and even Nardil and had to quit them all because I feel like I am having a mild LSD experience - this is also exactly what my anxiety feels like when it is really bad." Me too (the anxiety feeling like an LSD experience).
Good to hear I am not the only one! That is the worst feeling.I was actually taking Wellbutrin + 2mg of Klonopin. It was a pretty good combo, but I found that I had a few breakthrough attacks of anxiety. I was never really sure if the Wellbutrin was doing anything. I was only a pretty low dose (150mg) and anything higher made me feel jittery. When I stopped taking it, I didn't really notice a difference.
Do SSRIs work for you?
Posted by MM on March 8, 2005, at 15:55:02
In reply to Re: Non Seratonin Related Options, posted by anodyne on March 8, 2005, at 15:29:01
Nope. I can't take any of the SSRI's...I haven't tried any other types that effect Serotonin though (except effexor but I don't know if that effects Serotonin much). Actually, have you tried Effexor? Have you tried a lower dose of Wellbutrin? I am on 150 now and it's too much for me. I just got it lowered. My Pdoc said it was overstimulating me by not letting me get enough Delta wave sleep soooo I dunno. Have you tried an SNRI?
Posted by anodyne on March 8, 2005, at 16:15:11
In reply to Re: Non Seratonin Related Options » anodyne, posted by MM on March 8, 2005, at 15:55:02
I tried Effexor a long time ago. I remember it being really stimulating, even at a low dose.
The Wellbutrin did give me some sleep problems as well at first but I found the once a day version to be tolerable after the first week. The other extended versions didn't work well for me.
Posted by MM on March 8, 2005, at 16:18:28
In reply to Re: Non Seratonin Related Options, posted by anodyne on March 8, 2005, at 16:15:11
If just anxiety is your problem, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is supposedly really effective for that, more-so than meds I guess.
Posted by ed_uk on March 9, 2005, at 7:15:50
In reply to Re: Non Seratonin Related Options, posted by anodyne on March 8, 2005, at 16:15:11
Hi,
Have you ever tried anything that blocks serotonin receptors, like Remeron? ...Or an atypical antipsychotic? ...or a sedating TCA?
Ed.
This is the end of the thread.
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