![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 39 to 63 of 63. Go back in thread:
Posted by Ritch on January 3, 2005, at 9:51:59
In reply to Re: Those are hypomanias, posted by banga on January 3, 2005, at 1:35:37
> Hello!
> I was just perusing your exchanges....I dont know if you are going by the DSM IV definitions, to distinguish mania, hypomania and mixed episodes--but in a nutshell, mania and hypomania differ in two aspects alone--duration, and its effects on your life. Manic episodes-last at least 1 week--- or less if they necessitate hospitalization. This then makes it flexible--if it is really out of control, or if you have hallucinations that split you from reality (i.e., you werent hospitalized but maybe it might have been a good idea)--its a manic episode. And mania is defined as MARKEDLY interfering with functioning in social or work life. Hypomania lasts 4 days or longer, and is not strong enough to interfere significantly with your daily functioning. The symptoms are the same, it's their intensity that differs the two.
> If you have ever had a manic episode, you are by DSMIV Bipolar I. If you have never had a full manic episode but have episodes of hypomania, youre Bipolar II. A mixed episode is if you simultaneously meet FULL criteria for a manic episode and full criteria for a depressive episode for at least a week.
> Sorry if you knew all that and are going by some other diagnostic system--just it seemed someone was wondering whether they are Bipolar I or II--.
> Technically, going by the DSM system, probably most of us fall under "Bipolar Disorder not otherwise specified" or "Major depressive disorder NOS", as the DSM criteria are pretty strict.
> And having said all that, if you go by the less clear-cut classifications going around these days, I still am not sure if I have just Major Depression or rather Bipolar in a softer form--
> Sorry for butting in , good comments by all;
> And good luck to all of you!
No problem, thanks for printing the info. I've read that before. I suppose I'm curious about the "qualitative" aspects of the symptoms more than the "quantitative". Without meds I've definitely exceeded the "4 day limit", even the "1 week limit", but the intensity was low enough that I could still drive (maybe 10-15mph over the speed limit), get work done, talk to people on the phone (get hung up on a couple of times though). Another thing I might mention is the "atypical" nature of it. I did get a dx a few years back from a neurologist that simply put me down as "atypical bipolar". The continuousness requirement of the "episodes" I think can be misleading. It is kind of like the breaker box is generally running hot for a week or so, but you only have to go and reset a breaker here and there for a few days in a row, but you don't get pitched into jail or get fired, etc......
Posted by Mr.Scott on January 3, 2005, at 12:52:43
In reply to Re: Those are hypomanias-Ritch Barbaracat » Mr.Scott, posted by Ritch on January 3, 2005, at 9:30:05
I've noticed that SSRI's seem to take away one "flavor" of anxiety and add a different "flavor" back.
Bingo!Scott
Posted by banga on January 3, 2005, at 13:54:20
In reply to Re: Those are hypomanias-Ritch Barbaracat » Ritch, posted by Mr.Scott on January 3, 2005, at 12:52:43
> I've noticed that SSRI's seem to take away one "flavor" of anxiety and add a different "flavor" back.
>
>
> Bingo!
>
> ScottThat is SOOO true!
Posted by banga on January 3, 2005, at 14:05:25
In reply to Re: Those are hypomanias » banga, posted by Ritch on January 3, 2005, at 9:51:59
>
> No problem, thanks for printing the info. I've read that before. I suppose I'm curious about the "qualitative" aspects of the symptoms more than the "quantitative". Without meds I've definitely exceeded the "4 day limit", even the "1 week limit", but the intensity was low enough that I could still drive (maybe 10-15mph over the speed limit), get work done, talk to people on the phone (get hung up on a couple of times though). Another thing I might mention is the "atypical" nature of it. I did get a dx a few years back from a neurologist that simply put me down as "atypical bipolar". The continuousness requirement of the "episodes" I think can be misleading. It is kind of like the breaker box is generally running hot for a week or so, but you only have to go and reset a breaker here and there for a few days in a row, but you don't get pitched into jail or get fired, etc......
Also, in terms of "episodes" and impairing functioning, you have to ask what about cumulative effects on life? If I look across my life and how much the cumulative effect of my depressive episodes and anxiety has had on my life....even if most of the time I was "functioning" (getting to classes, etc.) the quality of my achievements suffered, as did my confidence to push forward certain life and career goals.... if I look back at what I could have done if dysthymia and anxiety didnt seep away my abilities and confidence, where my life owuld be today...
( and that's ignoring the fact that I have in fact been at times extremely impaired and even hospitalized--just I believe even if I didnt have these episodes, the lifelong drag on my life would still have been present)
so does one call that "impairing" life significantly or not?
But on a side note, if people are hanging up on you at certain times, I would consider that affecting your social life quite a bit, even if it is temporary....
Posted by barbaracat on January 3, 2005, at 15:39:26
In reply to Re: Those are hypomanias » barbaracat, posted by Mr.Scott on January 3, 2005, at 1:33:16
Since starting lithium 2 years ago, those horrible nightmare days are gone. Even after the mixed-states/manic episodes stopped, I was still getting garden variety lethargic depressions and weepiness. When I first started lithium I was trying all sorts of different ADs (NOT SSRI's!), with it, mainly lamictal (worked at first then pooped and I got the rash), because the depression was so hard-wired into my system it took time to let it go. It was like I didn't know any other way to be.
I was on nortryptaline after my Mom died and it helped alot but dried me out too much. SJW is the first AD that has made a huge difference in lightening my mood and I love it, but it was lithium that brought me back to sanity.
I still have alot of anxiety, which is my bane, but I can manage it with benzos and if I can get my butt in gear, exercise makes everything better.
I experiment on myself at times and tried to go without meds for 4 months and started going downhill. Lithium brought me out within 1 week. But not enough, so I started my trial with the different SJW until I hit upon the combo I'm on today. I'm on so many nutritional things but I attribute my physical health to getting my hormones balanced (including thyroid) and my mental health to lithium, SJW, inositol and fish oil.
I'm not working because I'm on disability from the fibromyalgia, so I don't have alot of the miserable stress I was under in my high-tech corporate job. That makes a huge difference in my stress level, but there's the financial stress, so stress doesn't go away. But I can handle it and I trust I'll be able to handle it. Before, I was overwhelmed by everything and was no longer able to multitask anything. I was a project manager at my job and the last few months before I had to stop working were spent sobbing in my cube. I became super-super sensitive, hearing the lobsters screaming in the tanks at the market, road-kill made me throw up, couldn't drive anymore, all was doom. Reading my journal from those years, I am amazed how far I've come in this journey, amazed I'm still alive. One tends to forget those horrible memories. Yes, I'm doing very much better these days.
My days now are primarily centered, hopeful (however, this last election sent me into despair), if I have a bad time, I know I'll be out of it soon. I don't feel like every nerve is raw and exposed. I don't have the constant 'electrical' feel, more like a soothed feel. I still get all the pissy emotions of everyday life, but as long as I don't drink too much and mix my alcohol with opiates, I don't burn myself out. As long as I keep a moderate life and look after my health, get enough sleep and exercise and all that Ben Franklin stuff, I'm one of the strongest and emotionally healthiest persons I know. I can't say I'm exactly 'happy', except for occasional times, but I look forward to living and have hope that it will become more and more fulfilling and interesting as I relearn how to do life. You have to realize, I've spent most of my life swinging wildly with normal times in-between, but I've been severely mixed states since 1997 which I was able to hide somewhat, but then not at all and ended up in a psychiatric unit.
Also, and this is huge, whatever my fibromyalgia was about is letting go. The pain and fatigue and sheer misery of fibro was a big deterrent to doing or planning anything. But I've been waking up without any pain, and feeling absolutely normal physically for the last 2 months. I feel like I can schedule and structure my life now. Before, I never knew if I was going to be laid low with pain and fatigue. I don't know what to attribute this to, but it coincides with when I started feeling consistently better all around, about 3 months ago. I'm doing something right, I wish I know exactly what.
So yes, even though I go through bad times, depression and anxiety, they come and go very quickly. It's much better now, started getting better with lithium and since finding the other meds and nutrients that are working, my life has been stable, at times lovely and good, and I have hope that it will continue this way. Oh, and a happy note, I still get mini hypomanias (might be due to I'm taking a non-therapeutic dose of lithium of only 750mg) and I'm able to 'come down' from them but still enjoy them while they last. The lithium prevents them from going too wild.
>
> So what is your day to day like? Do you still experience ups and downs but just not the mixed stuff? I guess is what I'm asking is over a 4-6 week period what kind of mood stability have you obtained?
>
> Scott
Posted by barbaracat on January 3, 2005, at 16:12:42
In reply to Re: Those are hypomanias, posted by banga on January 3, 2005, at 14:05:25
Let's not forget the new problems that these episodes bring with them. The unpaid bills, the lost jobs, the messy house, the damaged relationships, the unkept commitments, the nasty words, can't find the friggin' keys. It's bad enough how bad the disorder makes us feel, but then we have to face the fallout from our actions. We cause alot of damage at a time when we're least able to do anything about it. Or we just get dragged down farther and farther, can't catch up and miss out. Just when we need compassion and understanding the most, people respond to us like we're weird - cause we ARE acting weird. And that would be depressing even without a raging mood disorder.
Everytime I go out to my garage and see those shelves and shelves and aisles and aisles of expensive junk from my never to be finished grand projects, I feel dismayed. I'm amazed anyone could have that much energy to buy all that stuff, that many ideas for creative projects in one lifetime. Now I have to clean it up, I need to clean it up just to free up that trapped energy. But AT LEAST, now that I'm in a stable place, I no longer feel overwhelming shame and paralysis. AND I'm no longer adding more stuff to it. In fact, come Spring, I'm even looking forward to going on a 'stuff safari hunt' and seeing what I've got in there.
But prior to feeling better, I was not able to face the sheer overwhelm of it all or the shame and beating myself up for being so 'irresponsible and stupid'. I don't know about you, but I think the worst part of being in a really bad place is how much I hate myself when I'm in it.
Posted by olysi79 on January 3, 2005, at 19:07:32
In reply to Re: Dysthymia versus Bipolar type 2 » Mr.Scott, posted by barbaracat on December 30, 2004, at 14:05:14
Hi barbaracat, it's chris (formerly cpallen79- new screenname now)
I agree with your post. I have those awful agitated depressions with intense racing thoughts, paranoia, panic, and despair. I've had two over the past 9 years that were incredibly intense. I've also had couch potato sleep 15 hours a day type depressions too. Like you, I'll take those ANYDAY. Ask me 6 months ago if I thought I was bipolar and I woulda said nope, that is until I started to rapid cycle and alternated between hypomania and depression and anxiety. It was quite a discovery that still presents problems but I'm working through it and faithfully taking my meds, and goign about my business. I need to take an SSRI for my ocd and will not give it up, which may or may not exhasberate the problem. Mood stabilizers have helped, but it's all a balancing act. For me, a combo of mood stabilizers and antidepressants have helped and when things start to get out of control, I pop Zyprexa, extra trileptal, ativan, and some bendryl.
I think that those with agitated depressions need to really consider adding mood stabilizers or anti-psychotics into their cocktail.----------------------
> What are your Major Depressions like? My experience is that there are two noticeable types of depressions that I experience as a BP-II (and I'm 99% sure I am BP-II if not even I). One type of depression is the classic couch potato can't give a rip everything sucks and so do I want to sleep and forget this sh*tty life and everyone hates me anyway and I'm sad and numb and dumb.
>
> The other is a very agitated wailing bleak dark despair. Like an existential angst run through the frightening filters of Edgar Allen Poe. Can't sleep, fret, panic attacks, ultra sensitive, some tinges of visual and auditory psychoses. It's horrible, awful. I'll take the first kind any day. This second kind is Bipolar mixed-states and is definitely different than garden variety dysphoria, depression or hypomania. It's hypomania and depression at the same time. Pressured intense depression.
>
> If you have the first kind, you may be BP-II since lethargic depression is the typical BP depression. But BP has to have some component of a pressured mania, whether hypo or not. If you have irritability, anxiety, distraction and disorganization of the ADD variety and/or pressured thoughts and speech, flights of ideas, starting multiple projects that 'seem like a good idea at the time' and then never finishing, being attracted to liquor cause it relieves the bad feelings quicker than anything, then that is hypomania. Hypomania is NOT always fun. It can manifest as good old ANGER and feeling like constantly wanting to throw something.
>
> If you have the second type of depression, along with hypomanic symptoms, you are probably definitely Bipolar, and if it's I or II is not clear to me. But with mixed-states depression, there is no doubt that you're dealing with a different animal alltogether - and I'm still not sure what it is except lithium helps it.
>
> Lines blur with 'mere' agitated dysphoria and BP disorder and I think the succesful treatment determines what the dx is. I think I can distil hypomania into the word 'pressured'. You can feel anxiety, productivity, pleasure, anger, irritability and all that, but feeling them in the presence of pressure is a good sign of hypomania. Mania, of course, is another thing but you'd have no question as to your dx if you had manic episodes. At any rate, I'm just about 'cured' since taking lithium and St. John's Wort. If you want to read my account of how ST. John's made a huge difference in my life where no other AD worked, go to:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20041212/msgs/435452.html>;
>
> Good luck, my friend. I know how frustrating it is. - BarbaraCat
>
>
>
> > Am I a blind fool for not being able to tell which one of these I have?
> >
> > I would have to say I have a chronic depressive/chronic anxiety condition with occassional Major Depressions. I also have lots of anger issues. My father is a lifelong dysthmic. My doc however says I have bipolar 2. Mood stabilizers offer me no noticeable benefit that I can see. When I take antidepressants I can experience an initial hypomania. But since the ssri's help me so much with my anxiety, I can't tell if they actually worsen my depression by increasing my cycling or if I just am totally upset that they work for my anxiety except that they cause me a number of very unpleasant side effects. I can basically be talked into having any depressive/anxiety/bipolar disorder at this point.
> >
> > The reason I posed my initial question is because I am stuck between whether or not I should pursue antidepressants or anticonvulsants.
> >
> > A part of me wants to say to hell with it all and go back to using alcohol and drugs even if it kills me!
> >
> > Scott
>
>
Posted by banga on January 3, 2005, at 20:08:39
In reply to Re: Those are hypomanias, posted by barbaracat on January 3, 2005, at 16:12:42
Yes, the fallout is so awful. For me its the depression--all the avoided phone calls, undone projects, broken deadlines and promises, and yes the messy house,...it must get so old for those who know me, to have me one day come into the room with sort of an "I'm back and on the ball!!" attitude, only to have me slip away from the radar screen yet again for weeks on end.
The self-loathing is agony. The amount of relief you get in saying to yourself--"you're not iresponsible, lazy and uncaring, you have a disease" is very minimal.
Posted by barbaracat on January 3, 2005, at 20:18:04
In reply to Re: Dysthymia versus Bipolar type 2 » barbaracat, posted by olysi79 on January 3, 2005, at 19:07:32
Nice to hear from ya, Chris! Been awhile! I remember we shared some enjoyable posts a while back. I'm not glad for you, but I'm glad that I'm not the only one with those hellacious things. Before I even remotely suspected I was bipolar, I called those things 'depressions', but I knew they weren't anything like depressions I'd heard of other people experiencing.
I'm pretty convinced at this point that I'm BP-I and not II, mainly because of those godawful mixed states things. Also, I've had some classic wacko manias too, and the DSM says you only need one. But what's in a name? You could call it agitated depression as well. I never could figure out what the difference was.
Glad that Zyprexa works for you. None of the APs did a thing for me and if anything made me feel more despairing. I always keep an arsenal of benzos around. Just knowing they're there... I can also snap myself out of a funky blue-type depression if I take an opiate - but it's just a temporary fix. I'm the lithium poster child at any rate. I'm so very grateful it works so well for me. I don't think I would be alive if it weren't for what I learned on this board and marching into my pdoc's office and saying 'I think I'm bipolar'. Duh. I'm so glad that I found the right brands of St. John's Wort to deal with the remaining depression. I'm glad fish oil is making a difference. These days I feel like I have so much to be grateful for.
I totally agree with you about mood stabilizers and agitated depression. My heart goes out to the many of us getting treated for depression with SSRIs alone. They worked for me for a while but man oh man, when they started turning against me it was not a pretty sight. I think it's a travesty that I was seeing one pdoc or another for over 20 years and not one of them ever made this leap of intellect, ever asked the right questions. It's so clear to me now how bipolar I've been most of my life, but not one of them ever questioned the 'major depression' dx and kept substituting one SSRI with another. I know 'mixed states' is rather arcane, but I did have some royal Patty Duke type zingers too, but never made the connection.
Chris, answer me this, can you make any distinction between 'agitated depression' as the subset of major depression it currently is defined as, and 'bipolar mixed states depressions'? And why do some bipolars never get these mixed states? Is it a separate category, a unique DSM they'll someday figure out? To me it seems more than just anxiety and depression, it's a personal little corner in Hell and the 'why' has never been adequately addressed by any of my many shrinks.
> Hi barbaracat, it's chris (formerly cpallen79- new screenname now)
>
> I agree with your post. I have those awful agitated depressions with intense racing thoughts, paranoia, panic, and despair. I've had two over the past 9 years that were incredibly intense. I've also had couch potato sleep 15 hours a day type depressions too. Like you, I'll take those ANYDAY. Ask me 6 months ago if I thought I was bipolar and I woulda said nope, that is until I started to rapid cycle and alternated between hypomania and depression and anxiety. It was quite a discovery that still presents problems but I'm working through it and faithfully taking my meds, and goign about my business. I need to take an SSRI for my ocd and will not give it up, which may or may not exhasberate the problem. Mood stabilizers have helped, but it's all a balancing act. For me, a combo of mood stabilizers and antidepressants have helped and when things start to get out of control, I pop Zyprexa, extra trileptal, ativan, and some bendryl.
> I think that those with agitated depressions need to really consider adding mood stabilizers or anti-psychotics into their cocktail.
>
Posted by banga on January 3, 2005, at 20:18:39
In reply to Re: Dysthymia versus Bipolar type 2 » barbaracat, posted by olysi79 on January 3, 2005, at 19:07:32
>>I think that those with agitated depressions need to really consider adding mood stabilizers or anti-psychotics into their cocktail.
Yes, after years of only partial relief on antidepressants I definitely find atypical antipsychotics and mood stabilizers have something to give me. Atypicals helped with the anxiety and obsessive parts; and being on a mood stabilizer for the first time ever (Lamictal) I feel it truly acts in stabilizing my mood--no deep despair interlaced with agitation and crippling anxiety. I wish I paid more attention to the whole piture, inluding multiple people with bipolar in my family, so I could have tried other drugs earlier.
I am hoping a combo of anticonvulsants and an antidepressant, and perhaps a stimulant, may be more helpful than an antidepressant alone. The atypicals I have tried had some side effects I didnt care for--REALLY spacey and foggy--but I know to turn to them if things get really out of control, especially the anxiety.
Posted by olysi79 on January 3, 2005, at 20:30:42
In reply to Re: Dysthymia versus Bipolar type 2 » olysi79, posted by barbaracat on January 3, 2005, at 20:18:04
Hi Barbaracat,
Good to hear back from ya! I took keep an arsenal of good old Benzos handy in case I plunge and am happy they are there if I need them. I find that an AP works for me if I take it as an emergency med. If I take it too long, I get yucky old akathisia. ick ick ick. I keep my SSRI dose low (thank good my PDOC actually recommends this rather than hiking my dose up to some hellish level).
As far as your question goes between the bipolar mixed states and agitated depressions, I believe they are one in the same, and for the DSM to even separate them as two separate diagnosis' is ridiculous. They are so awful and hideous. Anyone that has them needs to get on a mood stabilizer asap. It's good talking to you again!
Chris
> Nice to hear from ya, Chris! Been awhile! I remember we shared some enjoyable posts a while back. I'm not glad for you, but I'm glad that I'm not the only one with those hellacious things. Before I even remotely suspected I was bipolar, I called those things 'depressions', but I knew they weren't anything like depressions I'd heard of other people experiencing.
>
> I'm pretty convinced at this point that I'm BP-I and not II, mainly because of those godawful mixed states things. Also, I've had some classic wacko manias too, and the DSM says you only need one. But what's in a name? You could call it agitated depression as well. I never could figure out what the difference was.
>
> Glad that Zyprexa works for you. None of the APs did a thing for me and if anything made me feel more despairing. I always keep an arsenal of benzos around. Just knowing they're there... I can also snap myself out of a funky blue-type depression if I take an opiate - but it's just a temporary fix. I'm the lithium poster child at any rate. I'm so very grateful it works so well for me. I don't think I would be alive if it weren't for what I learned on this board and marching into my pdoc's office and saying 'I think I'm bipolar'. Duh. I'm so glad that I found the right brands of St. John's Wort to deal with the remaining depression. I'm glad fish oil is making a difference. These days I feel like I have so much to be grateful for.
>
> I totally agree with you about mood stabilizers and agitated depression. My heart goes out to the many of us getting treated for depression with SSRIs alone. They worked for me for a while but man oh man, when they started turning against me it was not a pretty sight. I think it's a travesty that I was seeing one pdoc or another for over 20 years and not one of them ever made this leap of intellect, ever asked the right questions. It's so clear to me now how bipolar I've been most of my life, but not one of them ever questioned the 'major depression' dx and kept substituting one SSRI with another. I know 'mixed states' is rather arcane, but I did have some royal Patty Duke type zingers too, but never made the connection.
>
> Chris, answer me this, can you make any distinction between 'agitated depression' as the subset of major depression it currently is defined as, and 'bipolar mixed states depressions'? And why do some bipolars never get these mixed states? Is it a separate category, a unique DSM they'll someday figure out? To me it seems more than just anxiety and depression, it's a personal little corner in Hell and the 'why' has never been adequately addressed by any of my many shrinks.
>
>
> > Hi barbaracat, it's chris (formerly cpallen79- new screenname now)
> >
> > I agree with your post. I have those awful agitated depressions with intense racing thoughts, paranoia, panic, and despair. I've had two over the past 9 years that were incredibly intense. I've also had couch potato sleep 15 hours a day type depressions too. Like you, I'll take those ANYDAY. Ask me 6 months ago if I thought I was bipolar and I woulda said nope, that is until I started to rapid cycle and alternated between hypomania and depression and anxiety. It was quite a discovery that still presents problems but I'm working through it and faithfully taking my meds, and goign about my business. I need to take an SSRI for my ocd and will not give it up, which may or may not exhasberate the problem. Mood stabilizers have helped, but it's all a balancing act. For me, a combo of mood stabilizers and antidepressants have helped and when things start to get out of control, I pop Zyprexa, extra trileptal, ativan, and some bendryl.
> > I think that those with agitated depressions need to really consider adding mood stabilizers or anti-psychotics into their cocktail.
> >
>
Posted by barbaracat on January 3, 2005, at 20:35:02
In reply to Re: Those are hypomanias » barbaracat, posted by banga on January 3, 2005, at 20:08:39
Amen to that. Depression really derails life. It's bad enough when other people are blaming us for not coming through, but when we're beating on ourselves - yuck, very counterproductive and very sad. Gollum comes to mind. When you get down to it, though, I can't think of too many people who aren't very screwed up in one way or another. But, yeah, they might be sad and frustrated but the messy house thing and avoiding calls is indicative of how bad it really is.
The thing is, I love a clean orderly environment. Some people couldn't care less, but I do, very much so. I go into cleaning overdrive when I'm feeling well. It's just real tough to keep things in order when I'm putting the car keys in the refrigerator, the scissors in the hamper, etc. I've really done this and it's funny in retrospect, but when I can't find those those car keys it's not so funny. Thankfully, I've got a husband who just shakes his head and does his best to keep things sane.
> Yes, the fallout is so awful. For me its the depression--all the avoided phone calls, undone projects, broken deadlines and promises, and yes the messy house,...it must get so old for those who know me, to have me one day come into the room with sort of an "I'm back and on the ball!!" attitude, only to have me slip away from the radar screen yet again for weeks on end.
> The self-loathing is agony. The amount of relief you get in saying to yourself--"you're not iresponsible, lazy and uncaring, you have a disease" is very minimal.
Posted by olysi79 on January 3, 2005, at 20:36:04
In reply to Re: Dysthymia versus Bipolar type 2 » olysi79, posted by banga on January 3, 2005, at 20:18:39
Banga, you are absolutely right about this. I have gotten much more relief from adding in mood stabilizers and AP's to help with treatment. Each time Ihave a breakdown, I look at how I can do my meds differently, as well as stress management levels. Through this I've been able to fine tune things and get myself positioned to take care of myself better.
> >>I think that those with agitated depressions need to really consider adding mood stabilizers or anti-psychotics into their cocktail.
>
> Yes, after years of only partial relief on antidepressants I definitely find atypical antipsychotics and mood stabilizers have something to give me. Atypicals helped with the anxiety and obsessive parts; and being on a mood stabilizer for the first time ever (Lamictal) I feel it truly acts in stabilizing my mood--no deep despair interlaced with agitation and crippling anxiety. I wish I paid more attention to the whole piture, inluding multiple people with bipolar in my family, so I could have tried other drugs earlier.
> I am hoping a combo of anticonvulsants and an antidepressant, and perhaps a stimulant, may be more helpful than an antidepressant alone. The atypicals I have tried had some side effects I didnt care for--REALLY spacey and foggy--but I know to turn to them if things get really out of control, especially the anxiety.
>
>
Posted by ed_uk on January 3, 2005, at 20:39:12
In reply to Re: Dysthymia versus Bipolar type 2 » barbaracat, posted by olysi79 on January 3, 2005, at 20:30:42
Hi everyone!
I just started a new thread that I hope many of you will respond to- it's about ADs and bipolar disorder.
All the best,
Ed.
Posted by barbaracat on January 3, 2005, at 20:39:47
In reply to Re: Dysthymia versus Bipolar type 2 » barbaracat, posted by olysi79 on January 3, 2005, at 20:30:42
I agree with the mixed states/agitated thing. Same ol' same ol'. I'm going to pop in a new post addressing this. Hope to get some good responses and new thinking material out of it. They may be one and the same, but they sure haven't been adequately dealt with in the suffering population. Talk to you later.
> Hi Barbaracat,
> Good to hear back from ya! I took keep an arsenal of good old Benzos handy in case I plunge and am happy they are there if I need them. I find that an AP works for me if I take it as an emergency med. If I take it too long, I get yucky old akathisia. ick ick ick. I keep my SSRI dose low (thank good my PDOC actually recommends this rather than hiking my dose up to some hellish level).
> As far as your question goes between the bipolar mixed states and agitated depressions, I believe they are one in the same, and for the DSM to even separate them as two separate diagnosis' is ridiculous. They are so awful and hideous. Anyone that has them needs to get on a mood stabilizer asap. It's good talking to you again!
> Chris
>
>
>
> > Nice to hear from ya, Chris! Been awhile! I remember we shared some enjoyable posts a while back. I'm not glad for you, but I'm glad that I'm not the only one with those hellacious things. Before I even remotely suspected I was bipolar, I called those things 'depressions', but I knew they weren't anything like depressions I'd heard of other people experiencing.
> >
> > I'm pretty convinced at this point that I'm BP-I and not II, mainly because of those godawful mixed states things. Also, I've had some classic wacko manias too, and the DSM says you only need one. But what's in a name? You could call it agitated depression as well. I never could figure out what the difference was.
> >
> > Glad that Zyprexa works for you. None of the APs did a thing for me and if anything made me feel more despairing. I always keep an arsenal of benzos around. Just knowing they're there... I can also snap myself out of a funky blue-type depression if I take an opiate - but it's just a temporary fix. I'm the lithium poster child at any rate. I'm so very grateful it works so well for me. I don't think I would be alive if it weren't for what I learned on this board and marching into my pdoc's office and saying 'I think I'm bipolar'. Duh. I'm so glad that I found the right brands of St. John's Wort to deal with the remaining depression. I'm glad fish oil is making a difference. These days I feel like I have so much to be grateful for.
> >
> > I totally agree with you about mood stabilizers and agitated depression. My heart goes out to the many of us getting treated for depression with SSRIs alone. They worked for me for a while but man oh man, when they started turning against me it was not a pretty sight. I think it's a travesty that I was seeing one pdoc or another for over 20 years and not one of them ever made this leap of intellect, ever asked the right questions. It's so clear to me now how bipolar I've been most of my life, but not one of them ever questioned the 'major depression' dx and kept substituting one SSRI with another. I know 'mixed states' is rather arcane, but I did have some royal Patty Duke type zingers too, but never made the connection.
> >
> > Chris, answer me this, can you make any distinction between 'agitated depression' as the subset of major depression it currently is defined as, and 'bipolar mixed states depressions'? And why do some bipolars never get these mixed states? Is it a separate category, a unique DSM they'll someday figure out? To me it seems more than just anxiety and depression, it's a personal little corner in Hell and the 'why' has never been adequately addressed by any of my many shrinks.
> >
> >
> > > Hi barbaracat, it's chris (formerly cpallen79- new screenname now)
> > >
> > > I agree with your post. I have those awful agitated depressions with intense racing thoughts, paranoia, panic, and despair. I've had two over the past 9 years that were incredibly intense. I've also had couch potato sleep 15 hours a day type depressions too. Like you, I'll take those ANYDAY. Ask me 6 months ago if I thought I was bipolar and I woulda said nope, that is until I started to rapid cycle and alternated between hypomania and depression and anxiety. It was quite a discovery that still presents problems but I'm working through it and faithfully taking my meds, and goign about my business. I need to take an SSRI for my ocd and will not give it up, which may or may not exhasberate the problem. Mood stabilizers have helped, but it's all a balancing act. For me, a combo of mood stabilizers and antidepressants have helped and when things start to get out of control, I pop Zyprexa, extra trileptal, ativan, and some bendryl.
> > > I think that those with agitated depressions need to really consider adding mood stabilizers or anti-psychotics into their cocktail.
> > >
> >
>
>
Posted by barbaracat on January 3, 2005, at 20:41:51
In reply to Re: ADs and Bipolar, posted by ed_uk on January 3, 2005, at 20:39:12
What's the link? Just go to your post, copy the URL and paste it into your post and send it back to us.
> Hi everyone!
>
> I just started a new thread that I hope many of you will respond to- it's about ADs and bipolar disorder.
>
> All the best,
> Ed.
Posted by barbaracat on January 3, 2005, at 20:57:18
In reply to Re: Dysthymia versus Bipolar type 2, posted by olysi79 on January 3, 2005, at 20:36:04
This has been a very interesting and active thread and we've covered a whole lot of stuff. Let me ask you all this? Did you have an abusive childhood? Were your parents mentally ill?
My father was bipolar - at least - and very violent and abusive at times. No sexual, thank God, but I spent a good deal of my childhood terrified. I wonder how that terror contributed to my mixed states vs. another kind of expression of my disorder? Genetics surely comes into it, but the emotional damage has a life of it's own. I'm just wondering how many of you out there who have bipolar or depressive disorders also had very difficult childhoods? Let's put it this way - are there any out there who didn't???
Posted by ed_uk on January 3, 2005, at 21:06:06
In reply to Re: ADs and Bipolar, posted by ed_uk on January 3, 2005, at 20:39:12
Here is a link to the new thread....
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20050103/msgs/437371.html
Ed.
Posted by olysi79 on January 3, 2005, at 21:52:46
In reply to Re: Dysthymia versus Bipolar type 2, posted by barbaracat on January 3, 2005, at 20:57:18
Hey Barbara, I come from a long line of depressives and alcoholics. I myself have never been sexually abused or anything like that, but I came from a rough family with alcoholism. It was not great, let me tell you. Alot of anger. Both sides of my family have problems with mental illness. I never met my grandfather because he died when he was 30 of alcoholism. He was surprise.... bipolar. About 70 percent of my dad's family has mood disorders and have been in and out of rehab, etc. Mood instability also runs on my mom's side as well. It creates quite a mix of interesting factors that really show the biological nature of all of this.
> This has been a very interesting and active thread and we've covered a whole lot of stuff. Let me ask you all this? Did you have an abusive childhood? Were your parents mentally ill?
>
> My father was bipolar - at least - and very violent and abusive at times. No sexual, thank God, but I spent a good deal of my childhood terrified. I wonder how that terror contributed to my mixed states vs. another kind of expression of my disorder? Genetics surely comes into it, but the emotional damage has a life of it's own. I'm just wondering how many of you out there who have bipolar or depressive disorders also had very difficult childhoods? Let's put it this way - are there any out there who didn't???
Posted by banga on January 3, 2005, at 21:57:47
In reply to Re: Dysthymia versus Bipolar type 2, posted by barbaracat on January 3, 2005, at 20:57:18
I did not have an abusive household, but I did have a mother with major depression and my father left home when I was six. I grew up with a rather unpredictable mom, some mild neglect, and always having a feeling she might just disappear on me--fade away. I did of course later learn that she had tried to commit suicide at some point.
Twins studies suggest that about 50% or so of depresion as well as bipolar is inherited--written in your genes. That means that 50% contribution comes fom the environment. I definitely have both elements in my background-a family tree full of mood disorders (an addiction and ADHD) and not so stable household. And I still feel guilty, that I **should** have been able to overcome and cope with all of this baggage.
Posted by D minor on January 3, 2005, at 22:00:31
In reply to Re: Those are hypomanias-Ritch Barbaracat » barbaracat, posted by Mr.Scott on January 3, 2005, at 1:30:53
> Hey Guys,
>
> at least in theory then my approach of using:
> 25-37.5mg of Zoloft
> 25mg Lamictal
> .5mg clonazepam
>
> What's your take on the next best approach?This is my imput, for what it's worth. Seroquel is excellent for anxiety, have you tried it? And Depakote worked like a charm to quit my rapid cycling (if that's what it was). And my pdoc says that Wellbutrine is a drug often used for bipolar. This is what I'm on:
Depakote 500
Wellbutrin 300
Seroquel 400
Abilify 5I would NOT recomend Abilify for someone with anxiety. But this combo has worked very well for me. I hope maybe you could find some luck with it too.
Best wishes,
dm
Posted by D minor on January 3, 2005, at 22:02:49
In reply to Re: Those are hypomanias-Ritch Barbaracat, posted by D minor on January 3, 2005, at 22:00:31
Just for clarification, my above post was for Scott. Sorry,
dm
Posted by Ritch on January 4, 2005, at 10:46:48
In reply to Re: Those are hypomanias, posted by banga on January 3, 2005, at 14:05:25
> >
> > No problem, thanks for printing the info. I've read that before. I suppose I'm curious about the "qualitative" aspects of the symptoms more than the "quantitative". Without meds I've definitely exceeded the "4 day limit", even the "1 week limit", but the intensity was low enough that I could still drive (maybe 10-15mph over the speed limit), get work done, talk to people on the phone (get hung up on a couple of times though). Another thing I might mention is the "atypical" nature of it. I did get a dx a few years back from a neurologist that simply put me down as "atypical bipolar". The continuousness requirement of the "episodes" I think can be misleading. It is kind of like the breaker box is generally running hot for a week or so, but you only have to go and reset a breaker here and there for a few days in a row, but you don't get pitched into jail or get fired, etc......
>
>
> Also, in terms of "episodes" and impairing functioning, you have to ask what about cumulative effects on life? If I look across my life and how much the cumulative effect of my depressive episodes and anxiety has had on my life....even if most of the time I was "functioning" (getting to classes, etc.) the quality of my achievements suffered, as did my confidence to push forward certain life and career goals.... if I look back at what I could have done if dysthymia and anxiety didnt seep away my abilities and confidence, where my life owuld be today...
> ( and that's ignoring the fact that I have in fact been at times extremely impaired and even hospitalized--just I believe even if I didnt have these episodes, the lifelong drag on my life would still have been present)
> so does one call that "impairing" life significantly or not?
> But on a side note, if people are hanging up on you at certain times, I would consider that affecting your social life quite a bit, even if it is temporary....
>
If I can keep a reasonable "lid" on the highs without snuffing them out altogether they actually make work more enjoyable and productive. I just don't want a scenario where I'm stuck on an antimanic agent(s) that keep me dysthymic all year long. The goal is a good "normal" euthymia, NOT mildly depressed all the time from taking antimanics, but with the "benefit" of no cycling. Ooops, that's another can of worms!
Posted by Ritch on January 4, 2005, at 10:59:01
In reply to Re: Dysthymia versus Bipolar type 2, posted by barbaracat on January 3, 2005, at 20:57:18
> This has been a very interesting and active thread and we've covered a whole lot of stuff. Let me ask you all this? Did you have an abusive childhood? Were your parents mentally ill?
>
> My father was bipolar - at least - and very violent and abusive at times. No sexual, thank God, but I spent a good deal of my childhood terrified. I wonder how that terror contributed to my mixed states vs. another kind of expression of my disorder? Genetics surely comes into it, but the emotional damage has a life of it's own. I'm just wondering how many of you out there who have bipolar or depressive disorders also had very difficult childhoods? Let's put it this way - are there any out there who didn't???
Grandmother had an amphetamine psychosis (back in the '60's on HIGH dose from a doctor) and was hospitalized and given ECT. Mom and Dad just had some serious temper issues. Mom had some panic problems. Dad seemed to have narcolepsy (napped and snored a LOT). Lots of yelling and fighting, no serious physical stuff-got smacked now and then, but nothing major.
Posted by Mr.Scott on January 4, 2005, at 23:05:24
In reply to Re: Those are hypomanias » banga, posted by Ritch on January 4, 2005, at 10:46:48
I forget who asked, but here's my belated answer.
Father is dysthymic to the core and totally helpless with it. Mother has a host of anxiety problems (phobia/Panic/some GAD). Brother is a sane by psychiatric standards, but lives in an outright fantasy world. Two suicides on mom's side. My great uncle and his father both. That uncle 'may' have been a mild bipolar. Lots of emotionally childish types and folks who are fearful and cannot handle stress.
Scott
This is the end of the thread.
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