![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 52. Go back in thread:
Posted by cosis on December 20, 2004, at 0:47:51
In reply to Nardil Veteran » KaraS, posted by Spotcheck on December 19, 2004, at 18:27:11
> > Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
>
> Yes, I have discovered that my short term memory is all but gone. It used to be outstanding and is critical for humans to function well in this world.
>
> > Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
>
> All of the above, which is reason I stick with it.
>
> > How much weight have you gained?
>
> Since I began taking Nardil in 1978, I would say that I have gained 50 pounds in the last 26 years. Nardil causes "carbohydrate starvation." It's a side-effect of course and it will cause you to gain some weight -- if you have to take it long enough that is.
>
> > Have any of you been on this for several years?
>
> I have been taking 37.5 mg of Nardil for 26 years. I should have begun taking in 7 years sooner though. I found myself in a serious bind. My Psychiatrist in the mid 1970s did not know what else to prescribe for me, so I went back to college and in the process of earning my BA in Psychology -- of all subjects -- I finally ran across a fairly good discussion of the way it is believed the human nervous system works. Once I saw that I could tell my Psychiatrist that we had to try to inhibit either Catetchol O - Methyl Transferase or Mono Amine Oxidase. In theory, inhibiting either one should increase the concentrations of neurotransmitters at synaptic sites.
>
> I know of no medication that works on COMT, but I do know several that work on MAO. I selected Nardil because one can combine it with other medications -- if necessary. Hence, I was able to save my life.
>
> > Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
>
> I sure have. My experience is unique, but I take exactly 37.5 mg of "new" Nardil the same that I used to take of "old" Nardil. This is probably true for most people, but I do know people who do not respond well if at all to "new" Nardil anymore. As a result I made a elixir I call Liquid Nardil, which works extremely well, but it's expensive. Still, it does what Pfizer's "new" Nardil will not do in some people.
> Understand, "new" Nardil is generic Nardil. That is all that is made anywhere in the world these days including England where Link UK makes a generic Nardil and Australia where Link AUS makes generic Nardil, but also puts the old orange Sucrose coating on it -- which makes it appear to be "old" Nardil, but it's not.
>
> >(Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
>
> No problem at all Kara. Interesting survey though.
>
> Dave
Carb starvation is right! I never had such a craving for carbs until I started Nardil. It's almost like being addicted to carbs. I have successfully learned to control it though and haven't gained any additional weight.The maple syrup and waffles killed me! I gained about 20 pounds in all... You must resist the cravings!
Posted by KaraS on December 20, 2004, at 8:50:31
In reply to Re: Nardil Veteran, posted by cosis on December 20, 2004, at 0:47:51
> > > Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
> >
> > Yes, I have discovered that my short term memory is all but gone. It used to be outstanding and is critical for humans to function well in this world.
> >
> > > Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
> >
> > All of the above, which is reason I stick with it.
> >
> > > How much weight have you gained?
> >
> > Since I began taking Nardil in 1978, I would say that I have gained 50 pounds in the last 26 years. Nardil causes "carbohydrate starvation." It's a side-effect of course and it will cause you to gain some weight -- if you have to take it long enough that is.
> >
> > > Have any of you been on this for several years?
> >
> > I have been taking 37.5 mg of Nardil for 26 years. I should have begun taking in 7 years sooner though. I found myself in a serious bind. My Psychiatrist in the mid 1970s did not know what else to prescribe for me, so I went back to college and in the process of earning my BA in Psychology -- of all subjects -- I finally ran across a fairly good discussion of the way it is believed the human nervous system works. Once I saw that I could tell my Psychiatrist that we had to try to inhibit either Catetchol O - Methyl Transferase or Mono Amine Oxidase. In theory, inhibiting either one should increase the concentrations of neurotransmitters at synaptic sites.
> >
> > I know of no medication that works on COMT, but I do know several that work on MAO. I selected Nardil because one can combine it with other medications -- if necessary. Hence, I was able to save my life.
> >
> > > Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
> >
> > I sure have. My experience is unique, but I take exactly 37.5 mg of "new" Nardil the same that I used to take of "old" Nardil. This is probably true for most people, but I do know people who do not respond well if at all to "new" Nardil anymore. As a result I made a elixir I call Liquid Nardil, which works extremely well, but it's expensive. Still, it does what Pfizer's "new" Nardil will not do in some people.
> > Understand, "new" Nardil is generic Nardil. That is all that is made anywhere in the world these days including England where Link UK makes a generic Nardil and Australia where Link AUS makes generic Nardil, but also puts the old orange Sucrose coating on it -- which makes it appear to be "old" Nardil, but it's not.
> >
> > >(Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
> >
> > No problem at all Kara. Interesting survey though.
> >
> > Dave
>
>
> Carb starvation is right! I never had such a craving for carbs until I started Nardil. It's almost like being addicted to carbs. I have successfully learned to control it though and haven't gained any additional weight.
>
> The maple syrup and waffles killed me! I gained about 20 pounds in all... You must resist the cravings!
Have you ever been on a sedating TCA? I had a huge appetite on them including increased carb cravings (which I get anyway). I was wondering if this is comparable or could this actually be worse?
Posted by KaraS on December 20, 2004, at 9:04:29
In reply to Re: Nardil Veteran » KaraS, posted by Spotcheck on December 19, 2004, at 22:22:07
> Perhaps, but it most assuredly causes the "carbohydrate starvation" I mentioned earlier. It's very hard to resist. Hence, most people end up having to work out much harder just to keep this under control and they still gain some weight.
Is this worse than the "carb. starvation" that you get with a sedating TCA? I've had that problem before.
Have you ever tried Parnate or Marplan?
I wonder if there's as much weight gain with Marplan.
> When you know your life hangs in the balance, you would not believe what you can drive yourself to do.I feel that my life is the balance right now too...
> > > > Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
> > >
> >
> > > I sure have. My experience is unique, but I take exactly 37.5 mg of "new" Nardil the same that I used to take of "old" Nardil. This is probably true for most people, but I do know people who do not respond well if at all to "new" Nardil anymore. As a result I made a elixir I call Liquid Nardil, which works extremely well, but it's expensive. Still, it does what Pfizer's "new" Nardil will not do in some people.
>
> > > Understand, "new" Nardil is generic Nardil. That is all that is made anywhere in the world these days including England where Link UK makes a generic Nardil and Australia where Link AUS makes generic Nardil, but also puts the old orange Sucrose coating on it -- which makes it appear to be "old" Nardil, but it's not.
>
> > So even if the stuff from the UK is not the original Nardil, could it also be that it is just a better generic than what we have in the U.S.?
>
> No. I can tell you the excipients of all of the known forms of Nardil made today, including "old" Nardil. You have to understand that the excipients of any medication actually determine how the active ingredient, in this case Phenelzine Sulfate is metabolized. If your body does not metabolize it, and I know some people for whom this is indeed the case, you have to make some hard choices to make.I'm confused. Are you saying that the Nardil in the UK is not better but just has some different excipients than that produced in the U.S.? The person I'm referring to who is doing better on the UK version is doing so probably because the excipients in that forumlation are more conducive to that individual being able to absorb it better?
> > So what is it exactly that you do to the Nardil you buy to make it liquid and why is it better?
>
> I make an elixir and I do not do a thing to any one else's Nardil. There's not enough Phenelzine Sulfate in those tablet to make my elixir. 15 mg is not very much. I start from scratch and make my own. That was the point of this exercise - to come up with a functional equivalent for "old" Nardil for people for whom "new" Nardil does not work. Of course I was the first Clinical trial. This is not FDA approved and is much less efficient than any Nardil tablet, but I have save at least one person's life with it. Otherwise, it was suicide for him (a fate several of his relatives have suffered.)
>
> It is very simple. The expense is purchasing 10 grams of Phenelzine Sulfate or Phenelzine HCL to make your first liter. I do not synthesize these myself, or it might be much cheaper. But the idea is that others can do this for themselves with my assistance via e-mail -- if necessary. It bypasses the entire American Medical Establishment. That means, no more Pharmaceutical companies; no more Psychiatrists; no more prescriptions, and no more Pharmacies. You will need a very good chemical company though and some simple equipment. I have half a mind to do this to several other medications just to demonstrate the power of the technique. Problem is I do not take them. I could not in good conscience offer something I had not made and taken myself.Truly amazing!
> > Have you never wanted to try anything else in
> all of these years?
>
> Only because of the side-effects. To that end I found the best Psychiatrist I could find in Dr. John P. Feighner, formerly the head of Feighner Research Institute in San Diego, CA. Now he is on the Board of Directors of Innapharma, Inc. and only sees select patients. He's cashing in after a long an distinguished career. I do not blame him one bit as he has been in the trenches fighting the worse forms of these illnesses for most of his adult life.Too bad. I don't live all that far from there (in LA).
> We tried everything reasonable and several unreasonable treatment alternatives in 1984 through 1985. In fact, I pushed the field of Psychiatry as far as it goes and had Stereotatic limbic leucotomy based upon his recommendation. It actually helped some and forced me to reduce the amount of Nardil I must take from 45 mg to 37.5 mg. When those lesions kicked in I had no choice but to cut back or I would be up all night. Hence, I did exactly that, but my goal was eliminate the need for the medication entirely. I now believe that once must actually alter genes in order to achieve this end. That or perhaps use fetal stem cells to replace damaged neurons or receptors of neurons.
>
> >Actually, it's probably wise that you didn't. You read so many posts here of people going off of a medication but they can never get that original good response back again when they restart on it.
>
> I just never have had that problem with Nardil. If I stop taking it, when I resume it works just exactly the same for me.Definitely lucky in that respect.
> > > >(Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
> > >
> > > No problem at all Kara. Interesting survey though.
> > >
> > > Dave
> >Thanks again,
Kara
Posted by Spotcheck on December 20, 2004, at 12:15:10
In reply to Re: Nardil Veteran » Spotcheck, posted by KaraS on December 20, 2004, at 9:04:29
> > Perhaps, but it most assuredly causes the "carbohydrate starvation" I mentioned earlier. It's very hard to resist. Hence, most people end up having to work out much harder just to keep this under control and they still gain some weight.
>
> Is this worse than the "carb. starvation" that you get with a sedating TCA? I've had that problem before.
>
> Have you ever tried Parnate or Marplan?
> I wonder if there's as much weight gain with Marplan.
>
>
> > When you know your life hangs in the balance, you would not believe what you can drive yourself to do.
>I feel that my life is the balance right now too...
I understand and that is not a place I ever want to visit again.
>
>
> > > > > Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
> > > >
> > >
> > > > I sure have. My experience is unique, but I take exactly 37.5 mg of "new" Nardil the same that I used to take of "old" Nardil. This is probably true for most people, but I do know people who do not respond well if at all to "new" Nardil anymore. As a result I made a elixir I call Liquid Nardil, which works extremely well, but it's expensive. Still, it does what Pfizer's "new" Nardil will not do in some people.
> >
> > > > Understand, "new" Nardil is generic Nardil. That is all that is made anywhere in the world these days including England where Link UK makes a generic Nardil and Australia where Link AUS makes generic Nardil, but also puts the old orange Sucrose coating on it -- which makes it appear to be "old" Nardil, but it's not.
> >
> > > So even if the stuff from the UK is not the original Nardil, could it also be that it is just a better generic than what we have in the U.S.?
> >
> > No. I can tell you the excipients of all of the known forms of Nardil made today, including "old" Nardil. You have to understand that the excipients of any medication actually determine how the active ingredient, in this case Phenelzine Sulfate is metabolized. If your body does not metabolize it, and I know some people for whom this is indeed the case, you have to make some hard choices to make.
>>I'm confused. Are you saying that the Nardil in the UK is not better but just has some different excipients than that produced in the U.S.?
Yes, that is precisely what I am saying. All Nardil made today is generic Nardil, not "old" Nardil. This is a really old medication now dating back to the late 1950s. Lakeside Pharmaceuticals first developed it.
>The person I'm referring to who is doing better on the UK version is doing so probably because the excipients in that forumlation are more conducive to that individual being able to absorb it better?
Perhaps, but there is very little difference between the three (really two since Link UK's Nardil and Link AUS's Nardil are identical except for the outer coating) variations that exist today. All are reformulations of Pfizer's "old" Nardil.
>
>
> > > So what is it exactly that you do to the Nardil you buy to make it liquid and why is it better?
> >
> > I make an elixir and I do not do a thing to any one else's Nardil. There's not enough Phenelzine Sulfate in those tablet to make my elixir. 15 mg is not very much. I start from scratch and make my own. That was the point of this exercise - to come up with a functional equivalent for "old" Nardil for people for whom "new" Nardil does not work. Of course I was the first Clinical trial. This is not FDA approved and is much less efficient than any Nardil tablet, but I have save at least one person's life with it. Otherwise, it was suicide for him (a fate several of his relatives have suffered.)
> >
> > It is very simple. The expense is purchasing 10 grams of Phenelzine Sulfate or Phenelzine HCL to make your first liter. I do not synthesize these myself, or it might be much cheaper. But the idea is that others can do this for themselves with my assistance via e-mail -- if necessary. It bypasses the entire American Medical Establishment. That means, no more Pharmaceutical companies; no more Psychiatrists; no more prescriptions, and no more Pharmacies. You will need a very good chemical company though and some simple equipment. I have half a mind to do this to several other medications just to demonstrate the power of the technique. Problem is I do not take them. I could not in good conscience offer something I had not made and taken myself.
>
Truly amazing!A lot of people were really groping when Pfizer stopped making "old" Nardil at the end of 2003. She lied to the FDA and told them that she had a shelf life problem with old Nardil, when really it's all about improving her bottom line. Still any Pharmaceutical Company has the right to reformulate a medication they make whenever they desire so long as they follow FDA guidelines.
I decided it was necessary to come up with something that worked as well, but I do not have the knowledge or the money required to make "old" Nardil tablets. Because of those two facts, I decided to make a liquid instead of tablets. My hypothesis was to use only a really good carrier solvent to take the Phenelzine Sulfate into the blood stream, where it is metabolized by the liver and then sent to the cortex of the human brain.
>
>
> > > Have you never wanted to try anything else in
> > all of these years?
> >
> > Only because of the side-effects. To that end I found the best Psychiatrist I could find in Dr. John P. Feighner, formerly the head of Feighner Research Institute in San Diego, CA. Now he is on the Board of Directors of Innapharma, Inc. and only sees select patients. He's cashing in after a long an distinguished career. I do not blame him one bit as he has been in the trenches fighting the worse forms of these illnesses for most of his adult life.
> Too bad. I don't live all that far from there (in LA).Feighner's Research Institute still exists in San Diego. Dr. Feighner is just no longer active there anymore. You can visit it on the Internet though.
>
> > We tried everything reasonable and several unreasonable treatment alternatives in 1984 through 1985. In fact, I pushed the field of Psychiatry as far as it goes and had Stereotatic limbic leucotomy based upon his recommendation. It actually helped some and forced me to reduce the amount of Nardil I must take from 45 mg to 37.5 mg. When those lesions kicked in I had no choice but to cut back or I would be up all night. Hence, I did exactly that, but my goal was eliminate the need for the medication entirely. I now believe that once must actually alter genes in order to achieve this end. That or perhaps use fetal stem cells to replace damaged neurons or receptors of neurons.
> >
> > >Actually, it's probably wise that you didn't. You read so many posts here of people going off of a medication but they can never get that original good response back again when they restart on it.
> >
> > I just never have had that problem with Nardil. If I stop taking it, when I resume it works just exactly the same for me.
>Definitely lucky in that respect.I could not agree more.
>
>
> > > > >(Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
> > > >
> > > > No problem at all Kara. Interesting survey though.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > >
>
> Thanks again,
> KaraIt's been a pleasure, Kara.
Dave
Posted by sfy on December 20, 2004, at 12:51:45
In reply to Re: Questions for Nardil users (present or past) » sfy, posted by KaraS on December 19, 2004, at 14:08:23
> I wonder how much of the fact that you didn't have terrible side effects was due to the fact that you took the old formula? It seemed like it was a helpful medication for you. Why did you go off of it?
I reached a point where I had made some substantial progress with Nardil and the CBT (as well as a small daily dose of Klonopin). The Nardil was starting to cause some severe insomnia so my pdoc at the time thought we could discontinue it and see what happened (now I would probably ask for something to help me sleep). After I went off it, I was able to maintain my progress so I didn't go back on the Nardil. However, the insomnia remained (and arises frequently today) and I was put on Remeron to deal with it.
> Do you still practice the CBT method? If so, is it still helpful?
Not formally but some of the practiced methods of counteracting the automatic negative thoughts do arise when facing some social situations. Unfortunately, because of my anhedonia/dysthymia I seemed to have hit a plateau with my last round of CBT (which was with Heimberg's group). It makes it difficult to find activities I'm interested in in which to put the CBT to use. Additionally, it turns out that some of those negative thoughts (e.g., I'll run out of things to say) are actually true in many instances (my mind tends to run out of things to say even absent any anxiety) so CBT cannot deal with that.
> Also, since your experiment with selegiline wasn't very successful, what have you decided to try next?
Right now, I'm trying nortryptiline. I'm up to a 50 mg. dose but haven't yet noticed any dramatic impact. The side effects are bearable (dry, yucky tasting mouth and slight constipation) and it does help me sleep well without any hangover the next morning. I'm going to give the 50 mg. another couple of weeks and then probably go up to 75 mg. My pdoc says the dose could go as high as 100 mg. (But he didn't mention testing my blood plasma levels and I forgot to ask.)
Posted by KaraS on December 21, 2004, at 23:11:04
In reply to Re: Questions for Nardil users (present or past) » KaraS, posted by sfy on December 20, 2004, at 12:51:45
> > I wonder how much of the fact that you didn't have terrible side effects was due to the fact that you took the old formula? It seemed like it was a helpful medication for you. Why did you go off of it?
>
> I reached a point where I had made some substantial progress with Nardil and the CBT (as well as a small daily dose of Klonopin). The Nardil was starting to cause some severe insomnia so my pdoc at the time thought we could discontinue it and see what happened (now I would probably ask for something to help me sleep). After I went off it, I was able to maintain my progress so I didn't go back on the Nardil. However, the insomnia remained (and arises frequently today) and I was put on Remeron to deal with it.
>
> > Do you still practice the CBT method? If so, is it still helpful?
>
> Not formally but some of the practiced methods of counteracting the automatic negative thoughts do arise when facing some social situations. Unfortunately, because of my anhedonia/dysthymia I seemed to have hit a plateau with my last round of CBT (which was with Heimberg's group). It makes it difficult to find activities I'm interested in in which to put the CBT to use. Additionally, it turns out that some of those negative thoughts (e.g., I'll run out of things to say) are actually true in many instances (my mind tends to run out of things to say even absent any anxiety) so CBT cannot deal with that.
>
> > Also, since your experiment with selegiline wasn't very successful, what have you decided to try next?
>
> Right now, I'm trying nortryptiline. I'm up to a 50 mg. dose but haven't yet noticed any dramatic impact. The side effects are bearable (dry, yucky tasting mouth and slight constipation) and it does help me sleep well without any hangover the next morning. I'm going to give the 50 mg. another couple of weeks and then probably go up to 75 mg. My pdoc says the dose could go as high as 100 mg. (But he didn't mention testing my blood plasma levels and I forgot to ask.)
Thanks for your info on Nardil and CBT. I wish I could take nortriptyline. It made my heart race but it was the only time in many years that I had some energy and motivation. Unfortunatly, because of the tachycardia, my doctor took me off of it. It sounds like your side effects are very mild though. I hope it works out for you.
Posted by Questionmark on December 23, 2004, at 4:48:24
In reply to Questions for Nardil users (present or past), posted by KaraS on December 18, 2004, at 18:40:29
> Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
Definitely decreased. However, before starting it i had been horribly inexplicably depressed for months on end (ever since quitting the Paxil before that). So i'm certain that it helped for that reason-- the "type" of depression i was in was very scattered, cognitively. But if i compare myself now (on Nardil) with how i was say a few years ago and before that (before getting on any psychiatric meds), i would have to say that my ability to focus, motivation, memory, and overall cognitive ability is less/worse now.
> Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
Yes to the former (i.e., both). However, i think it is so anxiolytic and mood lifting that it almost takes away some amount of necessary anxiety that i should have when not doing constructive things, using my time wisely, etc., which kind of takes away from my motivation and energy. Yeah, no, i'd have to say that Nardil is significantly more anxiolytic and mood lifting than it is providing of energy and motivation. It's not that bad for energy & motivation though, unless you have my problem (just mentioned), and even that's not that bad and is controllable.
> How much weight have you gained?
1.5 years, on 60mg-- about 10-15 lbs. (? kilos). But i am also only ~160 lbs. and have really been trying to gain weight. Concerning appetite, it had nowhere near the effect that Remeron did, for me.
> Have any of you been on this for several years?
---Not me.
> Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?No.
> (Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)Puhshaw! i totally understand. As i'm sure we all do. Good luck.
Posted by Michael Bell on December 23, 2004, at 17:28:44
In reply to Questions for Nardil users (present or past), posted by KaraS on December 18, 2004, at 18:40:29
I tried Nardil for 3 weeks and it's anxiolytic effects were great, but fear of hypertensive crisis made me get off of it.
Just curious, how many of you who responded to the original post have dealt with a hypertensive crisis due to Nardil? What brought it on, if anything? Thanks.
Posted by Spotcheck on December 23, 2004, at 17:41:20
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis?, posted by Michael Bell on December 23, 2004, at 17:28:44
>I tried Nardil for 3 weeks and it's anxiolytic effects were great, but fear of hypertensive crisis made me get off of it.
>Just curious, how many of you who responded to the original post have dealt with a hypertensive crisis due to Nardil? What brought it on, if anything? Thanks.
I am most unusual in that I have violated virtually all of the dietary restrictions that come with Nardil, but I know several people who have run ins when they ate a bit of pepperoni or something like that. Do be extremely careful here, but if you are, you can take this medication without fear -- especially is helps you.
I can direct you to sight that is devoted
exclusively to Nardil. That would be
http://anxietyhelp.org/treatment/medication/nardil.html/and my name would David
Posted by KaraS on December 24, 2004, at 14:10:45
In reply to Re: Questions for Nardil users (present or past) » KaraS, posted by Questionmark on December 23, 2004, at 4:48:24
> > Has this medication increased or decreased brain fog? (My brain may be ADHD prone - though I've never been diagnosed - so this answer is very important to me.)
>
> Definitely decreased. However, before starting it i had been horribly inexplicably depressed for months on end (ever since quitting the Paxil before that). So i'm certain that it helped for that reason-- the "type" of depression i was in was very scattered, cognitively. But if i compare myself now (on Nardil) with how i was say a few years ago and before that (before getting on any psychiatric meds), i would have to say that my ability to focus, motivation, memory, and overall cognitive ability is less/worse now.
>
>
>
> > Has this medication given you more energy and motivation or has it mostly been anxiolytic and/or mood lifting?
>
> Yes to the former (i.e., both). However, i think it is so anxiolytic and mood lifting that it almost takes away some amount of necessary anxiety that i should have when not doing constructive things, using my time wisely, etc., which kind of takes away from my motivation and energy. Yeah, no, i'd have to say that Nardil is significantly more anxiolytic and mood lifting than it is providing of energy and motivation. It's not that bad for energy & motivation though, unless you have my problem (just mentioned), and even that's not that bad and is controllable.
>
>
>
> > How much weight have you gained?
>
> 1.5 years, on 60mg-- about 10-15 lbs. (? kilos). But i am also only ~160 lbs. and have really been trying to gain weight. Concerning appetite, it had nowhere near the effect that Remeron did, for me.
>
>
> > Have any of you been on this for several years?
> ---Not me.
>
>
> > Have you compared the new Nardil to the old, original Nardil?
>
> No.
>
>
>
> > (Sorry to ask so many questions but I'm having trouble deciding what medication to try next and I have to make a decision quickly.)
>
> Puhshaw! i totally understand. As i'm sure we all do. Good luck.
Thanks. Overall it seems like this has been a very good medication for you (though you might want a bit more motivation). It's so good to hear success stories. Thanks for responding to my post and have a wonderful holiday season!
Posted by sfy on December 25, 2004, at 16:05:31
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis?, posted by Michael Bell on December 23, 2004, at 17:28:44
> I tried Nardil for 3 weeks and it's anxiolytic effects were great, but fear of hypertensive crisis made me get off of it.
>
> Just curious, how many of you who responded to the original post have dealt with a hypertensive crisis due to Nardil? What brought it on, if anything? Thanks.Just to allay your fears, in my 2 1/2 years on Nardil, I never had a hypertensive crisis nor any incident even remotely indicating its possible onset. I was pretty careful about my diet and always carried some nifedipine just in case.
Posted by Tepiaca on December 26, 2004, at 14:39:44
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis?, posted by Michael Bell on December 23, 2004, at 17:28:44
> I tried Nardil for 3 weeks and it's anxiolytic effects were great, but fear of hypertensive crisis made me get off of it.
>
> Just curious, how many of you who responded to the original post have dealt with a hypertensive crisis due to Nardil? What brought it on, if anything? Thanks.
I have had 1 in one year a 4 months. It was my fault because I ate and old piece of chicken that was in the refrigerator for more than 1 month.
The diet is not a big deal however , it is vey easy to follow. I have eat many things that I am supposed not to eat. But everyone´s is different with years you need to look by yourself what are the things that are most likely to provoke a HP on you
Posted by jparsell82` on December 27, 2004, at 23:44:10
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis?, posted by Michael Bell on December 23, 2004, at 17:28:44
> I tried Nardil for 3 weeks and it's anxiolytic effects were great, but fear of hypertensive crisis made me get off of it.
>
> Just curious, how many of you who responded to the original post have dealt with a hypertensive crisis due to Nardil? What brought it on, if anything? Thanks.Never had a hypertensive crisis with Nardil. I didn't follow the diet all that well either. Hypertensive crisis' are a problem with Maois but I believe they are way overhyped. I think some people are way less likely or vice versa to get them too.
Posted by kellym on December 29, 2004, at 18:53:30
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis?, posted by jparsell82` on December 27, 2004, at 23:44:10
I once had chinese food -had a bp of about 200/120 if my home unit was getting an accurate reading. I took the beta blocker Lopressor at 100mg and reclined on my bed. My bp returned to normal after about 20 minutes. Perhaps not the ideal course of action but it worked out for me.
Posted by KaraS on December 29, 2004, at 20:31:21
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis?, posted by kellym on December 29, 2004, at 18:53:30
> I once had chinese food -had a bp of about 200/120 if my home unit was getting an accurate reading. I took the beta blocker Lopressor at 100mg and reclined on my bed. My bp returned to normal after about 20 minutes. Perhaps not the ideal course of action but it worked out for me.
I've been worried about Chinese food. Did you just eat the wrong thing at a restaurant or is it impossible to know if something is going to be ok when eating Chineses food? I'm worried because they may use old stock in making it (not to mention the soy sauce that might be in it).(Sounds like you did the right thing for it.)
k
Posted by kellym on December 30, 2004, at 19:20:04
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis? » kellym, posted by KaraS on December 29, 2004, at 20:31:21
I guess you can't be totally sure-there were a couple of places that I went to and felt comfortable with. Both were not what I would consider very "authentic". I always requested very light sauce. I certainly wouldn't order anything with hoisin(sp?) or oyster sauce. Actually ordering any sauce on the side would be the safest. I cant explain why I had the one bad experience. When I was taking Nardil I would "stick my toe in the water" when establishing what was safe. When the food is consistant it is a good method. I think as long as you have an action plan in place in case of danger and be informed- the risks aren't prohibitive in my opinon.
Posted by KaraS on December 31, 2004, at 1:04:23
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis? KaraS, posted by kellym on December 30, 2004, at 19:20:04
> I guess you can't be totally sure-there were a couple of places that I went to and felt comfortable with. Both were not what I would consider very "authentic". I always requested very light sauce. I certainly wouldn't order anything with hoisin(sp?) or oyster sauce. Actually ordering any sauce on the side would be the safest. I cant explain why I had the one bad experience. When I was taking Nardil I would "stick my toe in the water" when establishing what was safe. When the food is consistant it is a good method. I think as long as you have an action plan in place in case of danger and be informed- the risks aren't prohibitive in my opinon.
So you would taste a little bit and see how you felt - or would you actually take a BP reading in the restaurant?
Posted by kellym on December 31, 2004, at 17:14:06
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis? KaraS » kellym, posted by KaraS on December 31, 2004, at 1:04:23
> > I guess you can't be totally sure-there were a couple of places that I went to and felt comfortable with. Both were not what I would consider very "authentic". I always requested very light sauce. I certainly wouldn't order anything with hoisin(sp?) or oyster sauce. Actually ordering any sauce on the side would be the safest. I cant explain why I had the one bad experience. When I was taking Nardil I would "stick my toe in the water" when establishing what was safe. When the food is consistant it is a good method. I think as long as you have an action plan in place in case of danger and be informed- the risks aren't prohibitive in my opinon.
>
>
> So you would taste a little bit and see how you felt - or would you actually take a BP reading in the restaurant?
>
>When trying anything new, I would eat just a little at a time- takeout is handy. You'll get a pretty good idea if something is wrong. I don't mean to give you the wrong idea- I would never take a chance on something I if I thought it was uncertain. I wouldn't go into an unknown restaurant and eat something I thought might be risky. When I read that the cheese in pizza from Pizza Hut is ok, I still took it very slowly until I was convinced of it. A blood pressure monitor is a good thing as long as you don't get too obssesive about it. They're really not portable though. I just had one because I had a blood pressure problem (although after starting Nardil I could stop my medication as it tends to lower bp normally). Luckily when I did have the bad reaction I had my normal bp medicine, a beta blocker on hand. Again probably not the official way to handle the situation but it worked out for me.
Posted by Spotcheck on December 31, 2004, at 17:53:46
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis? KaraS, posted by kellym on December 31, 2004, at 17:14:06
> > > I guess you can't be totally sure-there were a couple of places that I went to and felt comfortable with. Both were not what I would consider very "authentic". I always requested very light sauce. I certainly wouldn't order anything with hoisin(sp?) or oyster sauce. Actually ordering any sauce on the side would be the safest. I cant explain why I had the one bad experience. When I was taking Nardil I would "stick my toe in the water" when establishing what was safe. When the food is consistant it is a good method. I think as long as you have an action plan in place in case of danger and be informed- the risks aren't prohibitive in my opinon.
> >
> >
> > So you would taste a little bit and see how you felt - or would you actually take a BP reading in the restaurant?
> >
> >
>
> When trying anything new, I would eat just a little at a time- takeout is handy. You'll get a pretty good idea if something is wrong. I don't mean to give you the wrong idea- I would never take a chance on something I if I thought it was uncertain. I wouldn't go into an unknown restaurant and eat something I thought might be risky. When I read that the cheese in pizza from Pizza Hut is ok, I still took it very slowly until I was convinced of it. A blood pressure monitor is a good thing as long as you don't get too obssesive about it. They're really not portable though. I just had one because I had a blood pressure problem(although after starting Nardil I could stop my medication as it tends to lower bp normally). Luckily when I did have the bad reaction I had my normal bp medicine, a beta blocker on hand. Again probably not the official way to handle the situation but it worked out for me.
_________________________________________________First, where Nardil is concerned, it's not too hard to obey the dietary restrictions. They are not that big an imposition of your life. Second, "new" Nardil, unlike Pfizer's "old" Nardil actually tends to increase one's BP slightly. When, assuming you do, you decide to eat something that could precipitate a hypertensive crisis, then go really slowly. Some people will take a bit of Pepperoni and wham, their BP shoots to 200 / 90. Others are not bothered at all by most foods. This also depends upon the dosage you must take -- the more you take the more you should adhere to the dietary restrictions.
I do recommend finding out which type of person you are for your well-being though. Just be darned careful and test systematically. The beta blocker is a fine way to solve the problem. The real point is that the dietary restrictions are peanuts - if this medication genuinely helps you.
Posted by KaraS on January 4, 2005, at 17:19:20
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis? KaraS » kellym, posted by Spotcheck on December 31, 2004, at 17:53:46
> > > > I guess you can't be totally sure-there were a couple of places that I went to and felt comfortable with. Both were not what I would consider very "authentic". I always requested very light sauce. I certainly wouldn't order anything with hoisin(sp?) or oyster sauce. Actually ordering any sauce on the side would be the safest. I cant explain why I had the one bad experience. When I was taking Nardil I would "stick my toe in the water" when establishing what was safe. When the food is consistant it is a good method. I think as long as you have an action plan in place in case of danger and be informed- the risks aren't prohibitive in my opinon.
> > >
> > >
> > > So you would taste a little bit and see how you felt - or would you actually take a BP reading in the restaurant?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > When trying anything new, I would eat just a little at a time- takeout is handy. You'll get a pretty good idea if something is wrong. I don't mean to give you the wrong idea- I would never take a chance on something I if I thought it was uncertain. I wouldn't go into an unknown restaurant and eat something I thought might be risky. When I read that the cheese in pizza from Pizza Hut is ok, I still took it very slowly until I was convinced of it. A blood pressure monitor is a good thing as long as you don't get too obssesive about it. They're really not portable though. I just had one because I had a blood pressure problem(although after starting Nardil I could stop my medication as it tends to lower bp normally). Luckily when I did have the bad reaction I had my normal bp medicine, a beta blocker on hand. Again probably not the official way to handle the situation but it worked out for me.
> _________________________________________________
>
> First, where Nardil is concerned, it's not too hard to obey the dietary restrictions. They are not that big an imposition of your life. Second, "new" Nardil, unlike Pfizer's "old" Nardil actually tends to increase one's BP slightly. When, assuming you do, you decide to eat something that could precipitate a hypertensive crisis, then go really slowly. Some people will take a bit of Pepperoni and wham, their BP shoots to 200 / 90. Others are not bothered at all by most foods. This also depends upon the dosage you must take -- the more you take the more you should adhere to the dietary restrictions.
>
> I do recommend finding out which type of person you are for your well-being though. Just be darned careful and test systematically. The beta blocker is a fine way to solve the problem. The real point is that the dietary restrictions are peanuts - if this medication genuinely helps you.
I just noticed that I haven't answered this post. I do appreciate your advice after so many years of successful use of Nardil. I don't know if I can take a beta blocker. I may have asthma in which case they would be contraindicated. You're lucky you have that option and the pills already available. I hope I can get something to carry with me to allay my fears somewhat. Should the need arise, I would like to be able to take the bp lowering med and then that would be the end of it - but I guess you're supposed to go to the emergency room anyway, right? I'll have to find out where there even is one around here. So many of them have been shut down. I am particularly worried because I'm in my late 40's and I think a crisis is much more dangerous as you get older.Do you think that the Nardil that is sold in the UK (even though it isn't exactly the old Nardil) is better than what's sold in the US now? Have you ever tried that version of Nardil?
Posted by Spotcheck on January 4, 2005, at 17:51:14
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis? KaraS » Spotcheck, posted by KaraS on January 4, 2005, at 17:19:20
>I just noticed that I haven't answered this post. I do appreciate your advice after so many years of successful use of Nardil. I don't know if I can take a beta blocker. I may have asthma in which case they would be contraindicated. You're lucky you have that option and the pills already available.
I have no beta blocker to take. What I have done is to test things carefully and systematically, and I have been lucky. Other than that, I do make one heck of a good Liquid Nardil, but it so expensive now that only people who respond well to "old" Nardil only should really consider using it -- unless they can get a substantial amount of it paid for by their health insurance programs, assuming you have one.
>I hope I can get something to carry with me to allay my fears somewhat.
The hypertensive crisis problem is overblown in my estimation. Of course it does and can happen, but only if one eats foods that have a lot of Tyramine in them. Aged foods are a very likely source of trouble right here.
>Should the need arise, I would like to be able to take the bp lowering med and then that would be the end of it - but I guess you're supposed to go to the emergency room anyway, right?
It would be a good idea, unless you can control it yourself and there is no damage done. Then, there's no reason to do. But you must get your blood pressure down quickly or you could indeed die.
>I'll have to find out where there even is one around here. So many of them have been shut down. I am particularly worried because I'm in my late 40's and I think a crisis is much more dangerous as you get older.
Do find out where one is, but your local hospital is most likely source. I'm in my middle fifties, so I could not afford to have one either. I am not certain that age is all that relevant though. It sounds good, but that's as far as I should let it go. If you are in good shape, you'll be just fine.
> Do you think that the Nardil that is sold in the UK (even though it isn't exactly the old Nardil) is better than what's sold in the US now?
No, I don't. All are generics now, and there is little difference between them. If you want a bottle of Link UK's Nardil, just let me know. I have one I have been dying to get rid of for some time. All that is different is a requirement to keep it in the refrigerator - something Pfizer does not recommend. It could not hurt to do. Still, I do not know anyone who does this though with Pfizer's product. Heck, I won't refrigerate my Liquid Nardil. I use Benzoic Acid as a preservative of this elixir, and it works extremely well. What's the point of refrigeration, if you have it licked another way?
>Have you ever tried that version of Nardil?
Yes, I sure have. There is no significant difference between them. The only product that is appreciably different that I am talking about is an elixir I made to replace "old" Nardil for those who responded well to "old" Nardil, but do not respond well to "new" Nardil, and cannot find any other combination of medications that works as well.
Posted by KaraS on January 4, 2005, at 19:52:43
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis? KaraS, posted by Spotcheck on January 4, 2005, at 17:51:14
> >I just noticed that I haven't answered this post. I do appreciate your advice after so many years of successful use of Nardil. I don't know if I can take a beta blocker. I may have asthma in which case they would be contraindicated. You're lucky you have that option and the pills already available.
>
> I have no beta blocker to take. What I have done is to test things carefully and systematically, and I have been lucky. Other than that, I do make one heck of a good Liquid Nardil, but it so expensive now that only people who respond well to "old" Nardil only should really consider using it -- unless they can get a substantial amount of it paid for by their health insurance programs, assuming you have one.
Sorry, I confused your post with that of the previous poster who had the beta blockers on hand.
I don't have any health insurance currently. I'll have to pay for it and/or beg the company through their compassionate program. Canada has it for a bit less so that will help a little. The longer term plan is to get functional enough again to get a job and benefits. Then medication would be paid for (along with everything else).
> >I hope I can get something to carry with me to allay my fears somewhat.
>
> The hypertensive crisis problem is overblown in my estimation. Of course it does and can happen, but only if one eats foods that have a lot of Tyramine in them. Aged foods are a very likely source of trouble right here.
>
> >Should the need arise, I would like to be able to take the bp lowering med and then that would be the end of it - but I guess you're supposed to go to the emergency room anyway, right?
>
> It would be a good idea, unless you can control it yourself and there is no damage done. Then, there's no reason to do. But you must get your blood pressure down quickly or you could indeed die.You can probably get it down within an hour if you take something but is that soon enough? I have a feeling that by the time someone gets to the emergency room and gets seen, their blood pressure would already be down.
> >I'll have to find out where there even is one around here. So many of them have been shut down. I am particularly worried because I'm in my late 40's and I think a crisis is much more dangerous as you get older.
>
> Do find out where one is, but your local hospital is most likely source. I'm in my middle fifties, so I could not afford to have one either. I am not certain that age is all that relevant though. It sounds good, but that's as far as I should let it go. If you are in good shape, you'll be just fine.
>
> > Do you think that the Nardil that is sold in the UK (even though it isn't exactly the old Nardil) is better than what's sold in the US now?
>
> No, I don't. All are generics now, and there is little difference between them. If you want a bottle of Link UK's Nardil, just let me know. I have one I have been dying to get rid of for some time. All that is different is a requirement to keep it in the refrigerator - something Pfizer does not recommend. It could not hurt to do. Still, I do not know anyone who does this though with Pfizer's product. Heck, I won't refrigerate my Liquid Nardil. I use Benzoic Acid as a preservative of this elixir, and it works extremely well. What's the point of refrigeration, if you have it licked another way?
>
> >Have you ever tried that version of Nardil?
>
> Yes, I sure have. There is no significant difference between them. The only product that is appreciably different that I am talking about is an elixir I made to replace "old" Nardil for those who responded well to "old" Nardil, but do not respond well to "new" Nardil, and cannot find any other combination of medications that works as well.Wish I had your know how! That would sure make things a lot easier. Not to be at the mercy of the drug companies is another huge benefit!
Take care,
K
Posted by Spotcheck on January 4, 2005, at 21:22:10
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis? KaraS » Spotcheck, posted by KaraS on January 4, 2005, at 19:52:43
> > I have no beta blocker to take. What I have done is to test things carefully and systematically, and I have been lucky. Other than that, I do make one heck of a good Liquid Nardil, but it so expensive now that only people who respond well to "old" Nardil only should really consider using it -- unless they can get a substantial amount of it paid for by their health insurance programs, assuming you have one.
> Sorry, I confused your post with that of the previous poster who had the beta blockers on hand.That's quite all right.
> I don't have any health insurance currently. I'll have to pay for it and/or beg the company through their compassionate program. Canada has it for a bit less so that will help a little. The longer term plan is to get functional enough again to get a job and benefits. Then medication would be paid for (along with everything else).
That's exactly what you must do. Canada is cheaper, but I honestly do not know how much longer she will be available to us. President Bush and Republicans have every intention of guaranteeing American hegemony over pharmaceuticals in this nation - state.
> >I hope I can get something to carry with me to allay my fears somewhat.
> >
> The hypertensive crisis problem is overblown in my estimation. Of course it does and can happen, but only if one eats foods that have a lot of Tyramine in them. Aged foods are a very likely source of trouble right here.> >Should the need arise, I would like to be able to take the bp lowering med and then that would be the end of it - but I guess you're supposed to go to the emergency room anyway, right?
> >
> > It would be a good idea, unless you can control it yourself and there is no damage done. Then, there's no reason to do. But you must get your blood pressure down quickly or you could indeed die.
>You can probably get it down within an hour if you take something but is that soon enough?Yes, it sure is. An hour is not at all unreasonable. It just might feel that way because you will have one heck of a headache.
>I have a feeling that by the time someone gets to the emergency room and gets seen, their blood pressure would already be down.
If they take something for it, that would be true.
> >I'll have to find out where there even is one around here. So many of them have been shut down. I am particularly worried because I'm in my late 40's and I think a crisis is much more dangerous as you get older.
> >
> > Do find out where one is, but your local hospital is most likely source. I'm in my middle fifties, so I could not afford to have one either. I am not certain that age is all that relevant though. It sounds good, but that's as far as I should let it go. If you are in good shape, you'll be just fine.
> >
> > > Do you think that the Nardil that is sold in the UK (even though it isn't exactly the old Nardil) is better than what's sold in the US now?
> >
> > No, I don't. All are generics now, and there is little difference between them. If you want a bottle of Link UK's Nardil, just let me know. I have one I have been dying to get rid of for some time. All that is different is a requirement to keep it in the refrigerator - something Pfizer does not recommend. It could not hurt to do. Still, I do not know anyone who does this though with Pfizer's product. Heck, I won't refrigerate my Liquid Nardil. I use Benzoic Acid as a preservative of this elixir, and it works extremely well. What's the point of refrigeration, if you have it licked another way?
> >
> > >Have you ever tried that version of Nardil?
> >
> > Yes, I sure have. There is no significant difference between them. The only product that is appreciably different that I am talking about is an elixir I made to replace "old" Nardil for those who responded well to "old" Nardil, but do not respond well to "new" Nardil, and cannot find any other combination of medications that works as well.
>
> Wish I had your know how! That would sure make things a lot easier. Not to be at the mercy of the drug companies is another huge benefit!Well, LN bypasses any doctors or Psychiatrists, all Pharmacies, and all Pharmaceutical companies. Furthermore, it is perfectly legal for any American to make their own medications.
>Take care,
> KYou too Kara. If there's anything I can help you will with, just let me know.
Dave
Posted by KaraS on January 4, 2005, at 23:49:49
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis? KaraS, posted by Spotcheck on January 4, 2005, at 21:22:10
> That's exactly what you must do. Canada is cheaper, but I honestly do not know how much longer she will be available to us. President Bush and Republicans have every intention of guaranteeing American hegemony over pharmaceuticals in this nation - state.
>Yes, I know. I worry about that a lot.
>
> Yes, it sure is. An hour is not at all unreasonable. It just might feel that way because you will have one heck of a headache.
>Assuming I don't have a stroke or anything worse by the time that hour is over... (I'm not an optimist, can you tell?)
Also, do you have regular liver tests done because you're on Nardil or do you not worry about that at all?
> Well, LN bypasses any doctors or Psychiatrists, all Pharmacies, and all Pharmaceutical companies. Furthermore, it is perfectly legal for any American to make their own medications.
>They can't take that away from you! Fortunately for the drug companies, most of us don't have that capability. (BTW, what does "LN" stand for?)
> You too Kara. If there's anything I can help you with, just let me know.
>
> Dave
That's so sweet of you to say. Thank you!!k
Posted by Spotcheck on January 5, 2005, at 1:05:52
In reply to Re: How many of you had hypertensive crisis? KaraS » Spotcheck, posted by KaraS on January 4, 2005, at 23:49:49
> > That's exactly what you must do. Canada is cheaper, but I honestly do not know how much longer she will be available to us. President Bush and Republicans have every intention of guaranteeing American hegemony over pharmaceuticals in this nation - state.
> Yes, I know. I worry about that a lot.Well, I certainly wish you did not have to, but President Bush gets his way even when he's dead wrong about something.
>> Yes, it sure is. An hour is not at all unreasonable. It just might feel that way because you will have one heck of a headache.
>Assuming I don't have a stroke or anything worse by the time that hour is over... (I'm not an optimist, can you tell?)Not too many people who have these illnesses are optimists, Kara. I think it might well be a defining trait -- in fact.
>Also, do you have regular liver tests done because you're on Nardil or do you not worry about that at all?
While it's quite true that once Nardil gets into the blood stream it is then metabolized by your liver and then sent on it's way to your cerebral cortex where is changes your brain chemistry, no I do not worry about my liver at all. Hence, I do not have regular liver tests. After 27 years of using this medication, that would have been a lot of liver tests, and for what? If my liver goes, I will die of course. But I doubt that will happen.
>>Well, LN bypasses any doctors or Psychiatrists, all Pharmacies, and all Pharmaceutical companies. Furthermore, it is perfectly legal for any American to make their own medications.
> >
>
> They can't take that away from you! Fortunately for the drug companies, most of us don't have that capability. (BTW, what does "LN" stand for?)Liquid Nardil. It's my layman's version of "old" Nardil for anyone who needs the best Nardil going. It does work like gang busters, which is exactly what I had hoped it would do. But boy was it ever hard to first make. Now, it's really easy to do and is comparable in difficulty to making crepes I'd say. Not too hard in other words.
> > You too Kara. If there's anything I can help you with, just let me know.
> >
> > Dave
>
>
> That's so sweet of you to say. Thank you!!
>
> kIt's my pleasure, Kara! Good luck to you now.
Dave
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