![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by theo on September 25, 2004, at 11:39:33
What's different about these two stimulants?
Posted by utopizen on September 25, 2004, at 15:28:33
In reply to Difference, methylphenidate d-and l-amphetamine?, posted by theo on September 25, 2004, at 11:39:33
> What's different about these two stimulants?
Ritalin (methylphenidate) is a non-amphetamine stimulant that was created by a chemist in 1957 in an attempt to treat ADHD for kids without having the same appetite supression and anxiety that the amphetamines have. Of course, the drug does make you just or more anxious than amphetamines, but I suppose some enjoy their appetites while on it. Frankly, I forgot what it feels like to enjoy food since getting diagnosed with ADHD, so I can't tell.
Amphetamines are amphetamines. the l isomer is in Adderall, as is the d isomer. The d isomer alone is what comprises Dexedrine.
The d isomer is the side of the amphetamine molecule most responsible for the positive effects.
The l isomer is the side of the amphetamine molecule most responsible for the negative (side) effects.
The combination of the two in Adderall may be synergistic or may cause help for people who need motivation (since the l isomer may produce the type of anxiety that causes you to worry enough to get stuff done!)
Hope you follow. The d-isomer is the most potent, the l isomer the least potent. So 5 dexedrine is roughly equal to 10mg adderall, and 10mg dexedrine roughly equal to 20mg of adderall. But I emphasize rough.
Desoxyn is d-desoxyephedrine. The generic name is "d-methamphetamine". It's the d-isomer of desoxyephedrine (or "d-methamphetamine." It's the most potent, so 5mg of Desoxyn is like having 10mg of Adderall and 10mg of Desoxyn is like having 20mg of Adderall.
Because some docs don't read the PDR, some patients claim Desoxyn "doesn't work" because they never try more than 5mg. The daily recommended dose is 20-25mg, per the PDR! So the minimum daily dose should be at least 2 5mg tablets taken 2x/day (or the target dose, anyway).
Posted by theo on September 25, 2004, at 17:23:19
In reply to Re: Difference, methylphenidate d-and l-amphetamine?, posted by utopizen on September 25, 2004, at 15:28:33
So which one do you prefer and think is smoother?
Posted by utopizen on September 26, 2004, at 12:20:07
In reply to Re: Difference, methylphenidate d-and l-amphetamine? » utopizen, posted by theo on September 25, 2004, at 17:23:19
> So which one do you prefer and think is smoother?
Ritalin makes me too anxious, and gives me a "let down" I don't find I get with Adderall or Desoxyn as it leaves my system.
Desoxyn is my favorite, Dexedrine my second favorite and Adderall my third favorite. Ritalin makes me feel dysphoric sometimes. And very bored feeling.
I personally like to switch every few months because I get bored of taking the same med.
Posted by zeugma on September 26, 2004, at 17:54:47
In reply to Re: Difference, methylphenidate d-and l-amphetamine?, posted by utopizen on September 26, 2004, at 12:20:07
> > So which one do you prefer and think is smoother?
>
> Ritalin makes me too anxious, and gives me a "let down" I don't find I get with Adderall or Desoxyn as it leaves my system.
>
> Desoxyn is my favorite, Dexedrine my second favorite and Adderall my third favorite. Ritalin makes me feel dysphoric sometimes. And very bored feeling.
>
> I personally like to switch every few months because I get bored of taking the same med.What dosage of Ritalin did you take? I am currently taking 30 mg Ritalin and it sometimes feels like I might as well be taking a placebo for all it does for me energywise- unlike Provigil which did have a definite 'wakeup' effect. Provigil also seemed more effective for my attentional problems, although the sleepiness and ADD are so entwined that they may well be two manifestations of one problem. Unfortunately I have never taken a drug that felt so nasty as provigil- the glands in my neck would swell, my stomach would get queasy, and I was always thinking about when I could squeeze in an apt. with a GP for a physical exam since I felt so ill.
the problem with Adderall or desoxyn is that I think they are riskier to combine with a TCA. 'm not having dysphoria or anxiety with ritalin, it is just less effective than provigil, and I wonder if I am on an inadequate dosage.
-z
Posted by geno on September 28, 2004, at 1:45:50
In reply to Re: Difference, methylphenidate d-and l-amphetamine? » utopizen, posted by zeugma on September 26, 2004, at 17:54:47
Actually, i never took Dexedrine or dysoxin, but there next on my list, at least dexedrine. Ritalin , causes to much anxiety, no social effects, and i believe from research on p babble, Ritalin Adderall Dexedrine. Which the Ritalin is least favorite, and Dexedrine most preferred. Dexedrine, is pure D-amphetamine.Iv been on adderall 30mg 2x daily for 4 months and i have to take an extra dose, due to tolerance and the fact for me that dose lasts 4-6 hrs. So hr. 5 , i take my next 30mgs. THen that leaves me with 6-8 hrs to go. Since i dont go to be till late doing my computer research, By 10 pm, i would be laying in bed cranky, no motivation, so what happens is my silly insurance wont pay for adderall xr. If so, i would have my doc perscribe my 30mg xr, then maybe another 20mg or so Regual for the remaining 6 hrs. It would work out perfect. Im not sure if a doc can persribe like 30mgxr and 10 or 20xr , 2 doses. But iv read where some mix an extended release with a SR med to level out the blood levels fo rthe whole day.
But I also "basically not persribed by the same doc" get 30 ritalin (30mg La), because if i take an extra 30mg, im usually 10-14 days short. So i switch to Ritalin, which is like a good med when you run out of Adderall, and need another stimulant. ALthough iv yet to try some dopaminergic meds, or Nootropcs, but 2 months ago, i couldnt get the ritalin and for 8 days i had nothing so i did find ephedrine, which STILL had no effect. And if i went over 25mg of Ephedra, i would become an anxiety ridden nut, 10x worse than ritalin. But that order, anxiety and euphoria/mental stimulant/socialness wouuld be probably desoxyn due to its multi NT reuptake, release and Serotonin , , then def Dexedrine, adderall does woke well, hardly no anxiety but at my dose, still im immune to it.
The D-Amphetamine in adderall is Dexedrine, which i feel is the best one. Then whoudl be the other isomoers, i belive the benzadrine which was an old weight loss abuse drug of the 70's which is 1/4 of adderall. The other two, im not too sure off.
Im posting a new post on some tolerance issues and tips.
geno
Posted by paulbwell on September 30, 2004, at 10:45:35
In reply to Re: Difference, methylphenidate d-and l-amphetamine?, posted by geno on September 28, 2004, at 1:45:50
>
> Actually, i never took Dexedrine or dysoxin, but there next on my list, at least dexedrine. Ritalin , causes to much anxiety, no social effects, and i believe from research on p babble, Ritalin Adderall Dexedrine. Which the Ritalin is least favorite, and Dexedrine most preferred. Dexedrine, is pure D-amphetamine.
>
> Iv been on adderall 30mg 2x daily for 4 months and i have to take an extra dose, due to tolerance and the fact for me that dose lasts 4-6 hrs. So hr. 5 , i take my next 30mgs. THen that leaves me with 6-8 hrs to go. Since i dont go to be till late doing my computer research, By 10 pm, i would be laying in bed cranky, no motivation, so what happens is my silly insurance wont pay for adderall xr. If so, i would have my doc perscribe my 30mg xr, then maybe another 20mg or so Regual for the remaining 6 hrs. It would work out perfect. Im not sure if a doc can persribe like 30mgxr and 10 or 20xr , 2 doses. But iv read where some mix an extended release with a SR med to level out the blood levels fo rthe whole day.
>
> But I also "basically not persribed by the same doc" get 30 ritalin (30mg La), because if i take an extra 30mg, im usually 10-14 days short. So i switch to Ritalin, which is like a good med when you run out of Adderall, and need another stimulant. ALthough iv yet to try some dopaminergic meds, or Nootropcs, but 2 months ago, i couldnt get the ritalin and for 8 days i had nothing so i did find ephedrine, which STILL had no effect. And if i went over 25mg of Ephedra, i would become an anxiety ridden nut, 10x worse than ritalin. But that order, anxiety and euphoria/mental stimulant/socialness wouuld be probably desoxyn due to its multi NT reuptake, release and Serotonin , , then def Dexedrine, adderall does woke well, hardly no anxiety but at my dose, still im immune to it.
>
> The D-Amphetamine in adderall is Dexedrine, which i feel is the best one. Then whoudl be the other isomoers, i belive the benzadrine which was an old weight loss abuse drug of the 70's which is 1/4 of adderall. The other two, im not too sure off.
>
> Im posting a new post on some tolerance issues and tips.
> genoHi all,
I take Ritalin and would like to try Dex due to It supposledly being a better Stim,(due to it being a 'real' Amphetamine).Is it really better?
More social feling?
More mentally stimulating?
less rapid comdown,-- comparing IR both?
last longer?Any comparisons would be great!
Cheers all
Posted by utopizen on September 30, 2004, at 11:29:10
In reply to Re: Difference, methylphenidate d-and l-amphetamine?, posted by geno on September 28, 2004, at 1:45:50
Geno,
As being one with severe social anxiety, as I believe you are as well (?) I strongly advise talking with your doctor about taking some Klonopin on a regular basis along with your stimulant. It might help you to put things in perspective, help with your depression, and help with the obsessive thoughts I know I get over worrying about my mental illnesses.
It also helps the anxiety that comes with taking a stimulant when you already have anxiety. I think this will bring the msot relief.
Posted by geno on October 1, 2004, at 1:45:44
In reply to Re: Difference, methylphenidate d-and l-amphetamine?, posted by utopizen on September 30, 2004, at 11:29:10
Guys, I dont know if i posted, but i do have Klonopin from my doctor. He told me to basically take it as needed in the day, but take it at night to sleep.
This doctor is very good. Actually he not even a p-doc, but he is very helpful and not anti-drug, which if i never have gotten Adderall or klonopin, and suboxone , I would be still using or back in rehab. ALong with my ADD, and symtoms.
Most "addiction Specialist" think if you abuse a drug or alcohol, you will abuse everything. I dont agree 1 bit. I dont care if a neuropsychopharmotherapist whatever that is, tells me different. Im very specific with what i take, how much i take, even during my opiate use, i always was afraid to take alot at once. I always took more throughout the day.
But some drugs like alcohol can make one prone to say go back to opiates or coke. But i use this example. My bottle of klonopin still has pills in it by my next appointment, and the only reason i do take more adderall, is because i cannot or my insurance wont pay for adderall xr, so i dont get a full days worth of positive results.
If I wake at noon, take my first adderall, by 5, i have to take the second dose, or by 6pm, i will defenitely feel the comedown. So this works out good, but by 10pm, i need another dose. Ok well 2x a day, i dont have another dose unless i take one , so im not taking it to abuse it. Also, im up to 4am, so its not like betime is 11, or even so, i would wake up at 8pm, and then by 5, i would be again without a dose.
So dexedrine spanuals last 10hrs, and insurance pays for it. So if and im sure my doc will work with me, add something or switch me to dex spanuals, or even a 1 dose of spanuals and 1 dose of regual dex. Lowering my adderall dose below 30 wont work, say 20mg 3x daily, because 30mg is not enough some days. But from being very tolerant,, i sure if they had a 40mg pill, i would would handle it. Iv tried 45, just once and had no anxiety. But that was just to see if higher doses make a difference, and i really didnt.
Now iv read studies of doctors perscribing children or young teens combos, of adderall, and welbutrin or even adderall xr, and another dose of reg adderall. One study i remember the 14 yr old had severe add, and the doctor closly monoriting him, had him on Ritalin and Adderall, I belive adderall was 20mg XR and then evening Ritalin SR, or regualar , dose i belive was 10mg.
So, even welbutrin and adderall, may help alot, due to somewhat of a dopamine/Ne double up, but still Welbutrin or straterra do release dopamine, but not in the straitium or Nucleus accumbens.
Im sure most doctors know not to perscribe 2 drugs that are prone to have this profile, like Ritalin and amphetamine or dex and ritalin.
But , id like to start on dexedrine and see how i feel, and from most users, it works very well, most often better than the adderall. I also believe the D-isomer in adderall , which is 1/4 of the dose, is the primary isomer for mental stimulation and effect, and dopamine release from the Nuc ACC.But here is a very interesting question. IF you take a natural dopamine precusor, say L-tyrosine, and due to the different sites of Dopamine, will this increase such so there is more DA availablein the reward pathways, such as the Nucleaus accumbens, when taking amphetamines? Im researching for a supplement which actually has these properties. I will post , i have a few already a possibility, but need more research.
geno
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.