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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mark57 on March 14, 2004, at 8:43:14
Hi, I've been taking Wellbutrin SR now for about 3 weeks. There's been no improvement with my depression. The only things I've noticed is more memory loss and being a lot more irritable/short tempered. I don't know if these side effects would eventually go away but I don't really want to wait and see. I'm thinking of trying Nardil now. I was on Parnate several months ago but didn't get much help, although my doc wouldn't let me increase the dosage over 60mg/day which I think might have helped. I've also been on a lot of the SSRIs without much help.
Anyway now I'm wondering about trying Nardil. I have SAD as well as depression and have read that Nardil can be a great drug for this. My biggest concern is that Nardil will make me to drowsy. I understand that this can be one of its side effects. I already have a lot of trouble with that. I couldn't tolerate Xanax or Klonopin because I was falling asleep all the time. And I know you're not supposed to take stimulants with the MAOIs.
Has anyone had positive experience taking Nardil when they also had fatigue/sleeping to much problems to start with.Thanks very much.
Mark
Posted by Sad Panda on March 14, 2004, at 9:18:46
In reply to Trying Nardil?, posted by mark57 on March 14, 2004, at 8:43:14
> Hi, I've been taking Wellbutrin SR now for about 3 weeks. There's been no improvement with my depression. The only things I've noticed is more memory loss and being a lot more irritable/short tempered. I don't know if these side effects would eventually go away but I don't really want to wait and see. I'm thinking of trying Nardil now. I was on Parnate several months ago but didn't get much help, although my doc wouldn't let me increase the dosage over 60mg/day which I think might have helped. I've also been on a lot of the SSRIs without much help.
>
> Anyway now I'm wondering about trying Nardil. I have SAD as well as depression and have read that Nardil can be a great drug for this. My biggest concern is that Nardil will make me to drowsy. I understand that this can be one of its side effects. I already have a lot of trouble with that. I couldn't tolerate Xanax or Klonopin because I was falling asleep all the time. And I know you're not supposed to take stimulants with the MAOIs.
> Has anyone had positive experience taking Nardil when they also had fatigue/sleeping to much problems to start with.
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> Mark
>
>Hi Mark,
When you say SAD do you mean Seasonal Affective Disorder or Social Anxiety Disorder?
Would you describe your depression as atypical or melancholic?
Do you have any response from Parnate?
How were the side effects?Sorry to answer a question with ten questions. :)
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by mark57 on March 14, 2004, at 9:30:54
In reply to Re: Trying Nardil? » mark57, posted by Sad Panda on March 14, 2004, at 9:18:46
> > Hi, I've been taking Wellbutrin SR now for about 3 weeks. There's been no improvement with my depression. The only things I've noticed is more memory loss and being a lot more irritable/short tempered. I don't know if these side effects would eventually go away but I don't really want to wait and see. I'm thinking of trying Nardil now. I was on Parnate several months ago but didn't get much help, although my doc wouldn't let me increase the dosage over 60mg/day which I think might have helped. I've also been on a lot of the SSRIs without much help.
> >
> > Anyway now I'm wondering about trying Nardil. I have SAD as well as depression and have read that Nardil can be a great drug for this. My biggest concern is that Nardil will make me to drowsy. I understand that this can be one of its side effects. I already have a lot of trouble with that. I couldn't tolerate Xanax or Klonopin because I was falling asleep all the time. And I know you're not supposed to take stimulants with the MAOIs.
> > Has anyone had positive experience taking Nardil when they also had fatigue/sleeping to much problems to start with.
> >
> > Thanks very much.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> When you say SAD do you mean Seasonal Affective Disorder or Social Anxiety Disorder?
> Would you describe your depression as atypical or melancholic?
> Do you have any response from Parnate?
> How were the side effects?
>
> Sorry to answer a question with ten questions. :)
>
> Cheers,
> Panda.
>
>That's ok. I meant social anxiety disorder. I'm not sure what the different kinds of depression are. I just haven't had much luck finding anything to treat mine.
I noticed a little improvement with the Parnate in being less depressed and some more energy but not much. I wanted to increase the dosage above the "recommended" 60mg/day max but my doc wouldn't do it. I really didn't have any negative side effects from it. The diet restrictions weren't really a problem either.Mark
Posted by Sad Panda on March 14, 2004, at 10:46:00
In reply to Re: Trying Nardil?, posted by mark57 on March 14, 2004, at 9:30:54
> > > Hi, I've been taking Wellbutrin SR now for about 3 weeks. There's been no improvement with my depression. The only things I've noticed is more memory loss and being a lot more irritable/short tempered. I don't know if these side effects would eventually go away but I don't really want to wait and see. I'm thinking of trying Nardil now. I was on Parnate several months ago but didn't get much help, although my doc wouldn't let me increase the dosage over 60mg/day which I think might have helped. I've also been on a lot of the SSRIs without much help.
> > >
> > > Anyway now I'm wondering about trying Nardil. I have SAD as well as depression and have read that Nardil can be a great drug for this. My biggest concern is that Nardil will make me to drowsy. I understand that this can be one of its side effects. I already have a lot of trouble with that. I couldn't tolerate Xanax or Klonopin because I was falling asleep all the time. And I know you're not supposed to take stimulants with the MAOIs.
> > > Has anyone had positive experience taking Nardil when they also had fatigue/sleeping to much problems to start with.
> > >
> > > Thanks very much.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Hi Mark,
> >
> > When you say SAD do you mean Seasonal Affective Disorder or Social Anxiety Disorder?
> > Would you describe your depression as atypical or melancholic?
> > Do you have any response from Parnate?
> > How were the side effects?
> >
> > Sorry to answer a question with ten questions. :)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Panda.
> >
> >
>
> That's ok. I meant social anxiety disorder. I'm not sure what the different kinds of depression are. I just haven't had much luck finding anything to treat mine.
> I noticed a little improvement with the Parnate in being less depressed and some more energy but not much. I wanted to increase the dosage above the "recommended" 60mg/day max but my doc wouldn't do it. I really didn't have any negative side effects from it. The diet restrictions weren't really a problem either.
>
> Mark
>
>IMHO, the best & strongest meds are the MAOI's Nardil & Parnate & the TCA Clomipramine. If you are use to life with an MAOI & it's no hardship for you, I would ask the doc for a higher dose of Parnate or find another doc that is more confident in giving a higher dose.
Atypical Depression is the more common type primary symptoms are over-eating(hyperphangia), over-sleeping(hypersomnia), mood reactivity & rejection sensitivity.
Melancholic Depressive Type suffer from Insomnia & Lack of appetite.Parnate is the best medicine for Atypical Depression, it is, supposedly, the most stimulating.
Clomipramine is possibly the best for Melancholics & OCD.
Nardil is the best were Anxiety is the major problem, it enhances GABA as well as 5-HT, NE & Dopamine. If Benzo's put you to sleep, Nardil probably will too.If the SSRI's don't work for you, but you are really happy with your doctor, Effexor maybe worth a try. It's a good med, but hell to withdrawl from.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by King Vultan on March 14, 2004, at 10:48:13
In reply to Trying Nardil?, posted by mark57 on March 14, 2004, at 8:43:14
> Hi, I've been taking Wellbutrin SR now for about 3 weeks. There's been no improvement with my depression. The only things I've noticed is more memory loss and being a lot more irritable/short tempered. I don't know if these side effects would eventually go away but I don't really want to wait and see. I'm thinking of trying Nardil now. I was on Parnate several months ago but didn't get much help, although my doc wouldn't let me increase the dosage over 60mg/day which I think might have helped. I've also been on a lot of the SSRIs without much help.
>
> Anyway now I'm wondering about trying Nardil. I have SAD as well as depression and have read that Nardil can be a great drug for this. My biggest concern is that Nardil will make me to drowsy. I understand that this can be one of its side effects. I already have a lot of trouble with that. I couldn't tolerate Xanax or Klonopin because I was falling asleep all the time. And I know you're not supposed to take stimulants with the MAOIs.
> Has anyone had positive experience taking Nardil when they also had fatigue/sleeping to much problems to start with.
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> Mark
>I'm currently on 45 mg/day Nardil, soon to be going up to 60 mg/day, and haven't noticed any excessive drowsiness, which I have noticed on drugs like Effexor and Strattera. However, there's not much doubt that Parnate is more activating than Nardil, as Parnate is essentially a stimulant with MAOI properties. I agree with your doctor in not going over 60 mg/day of the Parnate, as this would increase the risk of suffering a spontaneous hypertensive crisis IMO. From what I've read, Nardil is clearly more serotonergic than Parnate and is probably a better drug for social phobia.
I was on 300 mg/day Wellbutrin SR for a few months last year and also noticed an increase in irritability. It became so intolerable that I was forced to eventually discontinue the med. I did find the Wellbutrin to have some therapeutic effects and very few side effects other than the increased irritability. Parnate might be looked upon roughly as an extremely high powered version of Wellbutrin, as both are extremely dopaminergic. You might have better luck with something more serotonergic such as Nardil, or an SSRI, if you haven't already tried one (I'm assuming you have, though).
Todd
Posted by action on March 14, 2004, at 11:38:07
In reply to Trying Nardil?, posted by mark57 on March 14, 2004, at 8:43:14
> Hi, I've been taking Wellbutrin SR now for about 3 weeks. There's been no improvement with my depression. The only things I've noticed is more memory loss and being a lot more irritable/short tempered. I don't know if these side effects would eventually go away but I don't really want to wait and see. I'm thinking of trying Nardil now. I was on Parnate several months ago but didn't get much help, although my doc wouldn't let me increase the dosage over 60mg/day which I think might have helped. I've also been on a lot of the SSRIs without much help.
>
> Anyway now I'm wondering about trying Nardil. I have SAD as well as depression and have read that Nardil can be a great drug for this. My biggest concern is that Nardil will make me to drowsy. I understand that this can be one of its side effects. I already have a lot of trouble with that. I couldn't tolerate Xanax or Klonopin because I was falling asleep all the time. And I know you're not supposed to take stimulants with the MAOIs.
> Has anyone had positive experience taking Nardil when they also had fatigue/sleeping to much problems to start with.
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> Mark
>
Hey Mark,I am very sensitive to most any of these psychiatric drugs but...
Nardil worked very very well for my social anxiety disorder and slight depression. From what I read it is the MAO most often used to treat SA (not parnate). I never tried Parnate so I cannot draw any parrallels between the 2 drugs.
Nardil I found to be a very powerful effective drug! For the first few months I went manic (this pretty much balanced out later). It completely solved my SA and depression. And was an energy booster for me.
Nardil really changed my life I became very outgoing I started dating got a job etc....
Strange effects: It efffected my sex drive tremendously to the point of where it became obsessive my libido was 3 x what it was before. I wanted sexual gratification for hours a day -- and the weird thing was that I could perform sexually for hours a day.... Luckily later I found a nymphomaniac girfriend who loved it...
It increased my appettite - I gained 30lbs in the first 3 months of taking it. Which I turned into muscle by going to the gym.... Had alot of energy.... Was a good thing for me since I was thin.
I stopped taking Nardil after a couple of years because after about a year the SA effects of the drug pooped out... But the anti-depressant effect kept working..
Nardil also effected my concentration (flighty) harder to stay focused on one thing (short term memory lapses).
Quick Q for you - Mark I am thinking of taking Wellbutrin.
Were there alot of bad side effects initially and how long did they last? How long did it take for it to take full effect?
Nardil took me 6 weeks to start working.
Good Luck,
Action
Posted by mark57 on March 14, 2004, at 11:40:28
In reply to Re: Trying Nardil?, posted by King Vultan on March 14, 2004, at 10:48:13
Panda/Todd, thanks for your replies.
I guess my depression would be the atypical kind.
I have all those symptons you mentioned, although I thought the overeating was more of an addiction problem as I have a lot of trouble in that area too(the behavioral kinds, not with drugs).Anyway, I can't increase the Parnate dosage. I already tried to get my doc to do that. I am concerned with the risks but I'm at the point where I feel ready to accept it. I don't have health insurance and can't afford to see someone myself. I basically go to a clinic type situation where the person who prescribes meds is a clinical nurse specialist. If he has questions he talks to a pdoc who is a resident. So I don't have access to anyone with much experience with MAOIs.
I'm not really sure whether my biggest problem is depression or anxiety. Or whether the depression is a sympton of SAD? I've had both most of my life and they both are very debilitating. There are so many things that I feel I've missed or am afraid to try because of it. I'm really tempted to try the Nardil since I've heard others say it can be a wonder drug for SAD.I also have sleep apnea and have start using a CPAP machine while sleeping, so maybe that will help with the drowsiness problem. I have tried a lot of the SSRIs (prozac,paxil,zoloft)without much help.
sorry for being so long.Thanks for your help.
Mark
Posted by mark57 on March 14, 2004, at 11:57:30
In reply to Re: Trying Nardil?, posted by action on March 14, 2004, at 11:38:07
> > Hi, I've been taking Wellbutrin SR now for about 3 weeks. There's been no improvement with my depression. The only things I've noticed is more memory loss and being a lot more irritable/short tempered. I don't know if these side effects would eventually go away but I don't really want to wait and see. I'm thinking of trying Nardil now. I was on Parnate several months ago but didn't get much help, although my doc wouldn't let me increase the dosage over 60mg/day which I think might have helped. I've also been on a lot of the SSRIs without much help.
> >
> > Anyway now I'm wondering about trying Nardil. I have SAD as well as depression and have read that Nardil can be a great drug for this. My biggest concern is that Nardil will make me to drowsy. I understand that this can be one of its side effects. I already have a lot of trouble with that. I couldn't tolerate Xanax or Klonopin because I was falling asleep all the time. And I know you're not supposed to take stimulants with the MAOIs.
> > Has anyone had positive experience taking Nardil when they also had fatigue/sleeping to much problems to start with.
> >
> > Thanks very much.
> >
> > Mark
> >
>
>
> Hey Mark,
>
> I am very sensitive to most any of these psychiatric drugs but...
>
> Nardil worked very very well for my social anxiety disorder and slight depression. From what I read it is the MAO most often used to treat SA (not parnate). I never tried Parnate so I cannot draw any parrallels between the 2 drugs.
>
> Nardil I found to be a very powerful effective drug! For the first few months I went manic (this pretty much balanced out later). It completely solved my SA and depression. And was an energy booster for me.
>
> Nardil really changed my life I became very outgoing I started dating got a job etc....
>
> Strange effects: It efffected my sex drive tremendously to the point of where it became obsessive my libido was 3 x what it was before. I wanted sexual gratification for hours a day -- and the weird thing was that I could perform sexually for hours a day.... Luckily later I found a nymphomaniac girfriend who loved it...
>
> It increased my appettite - I gained 30lbs in the first 3 months of taking it. Which I turned into muscle by going to the gym.... Had alot of energy.... Was a good thing for me since I was thin.
>
> I stopped taking Nardil after a couple of years because after about a year the SA effects of the drug pooped out... But the anti-depressant effect kept working..
>
> Nardil also effected my concentration (flighty) harder to stay focused on one thing (short term memory lapses).
>
> Quick Q for you - Mark I am thinking of taking Wellbutrin.
>
> Were there alot of bad side effects initially and how long did they last? How long did it take for it to take full effect?
>
> Nardil took me 6 weeks to start working.
>
> Good Luck,
> Action
Action, your experience with Nardil sounds encouraging, but I know these drugs can effect people in different ways. You said the Nardil caused some memory/concentation problems? Did this go away or was it always a problem? Did the Social anxiety come back after about a year and not the depression? It's interesting that you found it too boost your energy since I read that it can cause drowsiness.I've only been on the Wellbutrin a few weeks so maybe I'm not waiting long enough. It's just that my short term memory is already so bad that I don't want it to get worse. The other day I made 2 wrong turns on the way to work, and then drove several miles before I realized I was headed the wrong way! I thought at first I was losing my mind until I realized my problems with memory/thinking coincided with taking the Wellbutrin. I don't really want to deter you from trying something that might be helpful for you. I'm just not feeling like this is going to work for me.
Mark
Posted by Sad Panda on March 15, 2004, at 2:46:01
In reply to Re: Trying Nardil?, posted by mark57 on March 14, 2004, at 11:40:28
> Panda/Todd, thanks for your replies.
>
> I guess my depression would be the atypical kind.
> I have all those symptons you mentioned, although I thought the overeating was more of an addiction problem as I have a lot of trouble in that area too(the behavioral kinds, not with drugs).
>
> Anyway, I can't increase the Parnate dosage. I already tried to get my doc to do that. I am concerned with the risks but I'm at the point where I feel ready to accept it. I don't have health insurance and can't afford to see someone myself. I basically go to a clinic type situation where the person who prescribes meds is a clinical nurse specialist. If he has questions he talks to a pdoc who is a resident. So I don't have access to anyone with much experience with MAOIs.
> I'm not really sure whether my biggest problem is depression or anxiety. Or whether the depression is a sympton of SAD? I've had both most of my life and they both are very debilitating. There are so many things that I feel I've missed or am afraid to try because of it. I'm really tempted to try the Nardil since I've heard others say it can be a wonder drug for SAD.
>
> I also have sleep apnea and have start using a CPAP machine while sleeping, so maybe that will help with the drowsiness problem. I have tried a lot of the SSRIs (prozac,paxil,zoloft)without much help.
> sorry for being so long.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> Mark
>
>Hi Mark,
I have mild social anxiety, I can remember being a shy kid starting from 6yo. I've also been a glutton since then too. Being an obese kid doesn't help with shyness either. :) I've struggled along with life OK until I gave up smoking in July 2001, I then gave up chewing Nicorettes about Januay 2002 & I think it was then when I started going downwards. By August 2003 I was in bed for 14hours a day & I was thinking of suicide daily. I finally went to the docs & he gave me a sample pack & I've been on an upward path ever since. I am on Effexor + Remeron & am fairly happy, better than I can ever remember, but I am still struggling with a lack of motivation.
Since your doc won't give you a higher dose of Parnate try Nardil. Parnate is usually first choice because it has less side effects than Nardil. If your blood pressure stays OK, I can't see any problem in going higher with it, some people take as much as 120mg.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by Flipsactown on March 16, 2004, at 20:38:52
In reply to Re: Trying Nardil? » mark57, posted by Sad Panda on March 15, 2004, at 2:46:01
Just got an rx from my pdoc for Nardil. My pdoc indicated that I must wait a full 2 weeks from when I stopped all AD's. This will add an additional 2 weeks as I have to taper off of lamictal, lithium, prozac and remeron. Any comments or suggestions.
FST
Posted by Sad Panda on March 19, 2004, at 7:26:20
In reply to Re: Trying Nardil » Sad Panda, posted by Flipsactown on March 16, 2004, at 20:38:52
> Just got an rx from my pdoc for Nardil. My pdoc indicated that I must wait a full 2 weeks from when I stopped all AD's. This will add an additional 2 weeks as I have to taper off of lamictal, lithium, prozac and remeron. Any comments or suggestions.
>
> FSTYou will want to cease Prozac ASAP as it has such a hugely long half life. You would want to ramp up Nardil slowly for the first 2 weeks because Prozac can last as long as a month after you have taken it. I don't know much about lamictal & lithium, Remeron is probably OK with MAOI's.
Good luck with Nardil, it's supposed to be one of the very best meds available. Get the doc to give you a scipt for some BP lowering drugs incase of a hypertensive crisis.
Cheers,
Panda.
Posted by sobeit on March 20, 2004, at 18:56:04
In reply to Re: Trying Nardil » Flipsactown, posted by Sad Panda on March 19, 2004, at 7:26:20
It's interesting how individual response to medications differs. I have tried both Parnate and Nardil and found my response to be different than expected. On the Parnate, I was overwhelmed with hypersomnolance and found myself sleeping 14+ hours per day with minimal anti-depressive benefit. With the Nardil, I reponded in about 10 days and became more energetic, reducing my sleep time to 6-7 hours nightly with no desire for napping during the day. No success with SSRI's. Diagnoses are social phobia/SAD and atypical depression. What I'm trying to say is that generalities about these two meds hold true for most, but individual response may be quite different. So, it's worth trying the other if one doesn't provide benefit.
Posted by Flipsactown on March 20, 2004, at 19:39:14
In reply to Re: Trying Nardil and Parnate, posted by sobeit on March 20, 2004, at 18:56:04
I totally agree with you. I will cross my fingers and toes and hope to get a positive response with Nardil, but I will also keep Parnate in mind just in case Nardil doesn't work out for me. I received Nardil in the mail from Kaiser today and now I have to wait at least 2 weeks to allow previous AD's to purge from my body. I will be without AD's for the next 2 weeks. It will be tough, but if Nardil will take my depression away, then it is worth the wait.
FST
> It's interesting how individual response to medications differs. I have tried both Parnate and Nardil and found my response to be different than expected. On the Parnate, I was overwhelmed with hypersomnolance and found myself sleeping 14+ hours per day with minimal anti-depressive benefit. With the Nardil, I reponded in about 10 days and became more energetic, reducing my sleep time to 6-7 hours nightly with no desire for napping during the day. No success with SSRI's. Diagnoses are social phobia/SAD and atypical depression. What I'm trying to say is that generalities about these two meds hold true for most, but individual response may be quite different. So, it's worth trying the other if one doesn't provide benefit.
This is the end of the thread.
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