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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by SandyWeb on January 18, 2004, at 7:01:27
Has anyone found pseudoephedrine to help with inattentive ADD? I'm wondering if I should purchase a decongestant at the pharmacy?
Does anyone know which products contain pseudoephedrine in Canada? If anyone has used it, would you mind sharing the dose that you found helped with your inattentive ADD?
Thanks so much.
Posted by scott-d-o on January 19, 2004, at 1:21:52
In reply to Pseudoephedrine and ADD, posted by SandyWeb on January 18, 2004, at 7:01:27
> Has anyone found pseudoephedrine to help with inattentive ADD? I'm wondering if I should purchase a decongestant at the pharmacy?
>
> Does anyone know which products contain pseudoephedrine in Canada? If anyone has used it, would you mind sharing the dose that you found helped with your inattentive ADD?
>
> Thanks so much.No, not that I know of, since it has little, if any, affect on dopamine. however, with the proper knowledge you can quite easily turn it into a substance that might help :-).
Pseudoephedrine's CNS effects are even weaker than it's sister ephedra alkaloid "ephedrine." I'm not sure if ephedrine is banned in Canada, but if it is, perhaps you can import some from the states before the FDA ban goes into effect. Get a product that contains pure Ephedrine HCl, not an ephedra extract, should be easy to find. I wouldn't exceed the max dose on the label.
As for pseudoephedrine, it shouldn't be very difficult to find products containing it, since just about every cold medication sold OTC uses it as a nasal decongestant. Attempting to treat ADD with this drug will most likely result in slightly raised blood pressure and very clear nasal passages. Go to www.sudafed.com if you still want the details.
My recommendation would be to go to a psychiatrist and try out one of the proven ADD meds; amphetamines (dexedrine, adderall, desoxyn), methylphenidate (ritalin, focalin, concerta), or even strattera (altho, this one was like a placebo when I tried to treat my inattentive-type ADD w/it.)
Posted by Alexander on January 19, 2004, at 23:11:08
In reply to Pseudoephedrine and ADD, posted by SandyWeb on January 18, 2004, at 7:01:27
> Has anyone found pseudoephedrine to help with inattentive ADD? I'm wondering if I should purchase a decongestant at the pharmacy?
>
> Does anyone know which products contain pseudoephedrine in Canada? If anyone has used it, would you mind sharing the dose that you found helped with your inattentive ADD?
>
> Thanks so much.I have to agree Pseudo does nothing for me than work effectivelly as a decongestant, which amphetamine ought to do, too, but in my case does not
Posted by SandyWeb on January 20, 2004, at 17:22:47
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine and ADD, posted by Alexander on January 19, 2004, at 23:11:08
Well, I went out and bought a bottle of 50 pills. They are just a generic pseudoephedrine, 60mg each. It cost less than $8.00.
I am a little nervous to take one, even though people use it for a decongestant without even a second thought about it.
I really hope that it helps provide me with energy and focus. I've tried caffeine pills...as well as coffee itself! (Lol!)....but that doesn't help a great deal.
The problem is that I suffer from anxiety as well, so I have to be careful not to get too stimulated.
Any suggestions as to what dose of pseudoephedrine works best?
Thanks.
Posted by SandyWeb on January 21, 2004, at 7:19:29
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine and ADD, posted by SandyWeb on January 20, 2004, at 17:22:47
I thought I would update you on how the pseudoephedrine experiment went yesterday, just in case anyone is curious.
I took two 60mg pills last night, and I can honestly say that it didn't do much good. I have a chronic stuffy nose from Remeron, and it only partially helped with that.
I had a slight spurt of energy when it first hit me....for maybe 15 minutes. Nothing out of the ordinary, really. I just tidied up the house and then sat on the couch to read.
What I found interesting, though....and I'm going to follow up on this today....was that after I had that initial 15-minute spurt of energy, I became very calm and relaxed. When I was sitting on the couch reading, it almost reminded me of an anti-anxiety medication. I was just very relaxed and mellow.
I'm wondering if that is a true indication of ADD?
I've never requested a diagnosis because I feel uncomfortable asking my doctor. I used to do a lot of methamphetamine when I was in my 20's, and I'm humiliated that she might think I'm only looking for a high. But when I did "speed", my activities involved: reading voraciously (anything and everything I could find!), doing crosswords for hours, and playing Scrabble!! I could focus on tasks, and I LOVED that!! Again, it appears to be ADD.....but I'm embarassed to mention stimulants to my doctor.
I'd be interested in people's comments. Thanks so much.
SandyWeb
Posted by thinkfast on January 21, 2004, at 8:59:51
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine and ADD Update, posted by SandyWeb on January 21, 2004, at 7:19:29
Hi sandy. Pseudo tends to help me with some of the Remeron haze and also detours the weight gain. I take the 24hr Claritin-D, but it compares nothing to the Adderall I experimented with. The Adderall cleared up everything, including my nose..lol.
Posted by thinkfast on January 21, 2004, at 9:09:43
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine and ADD Update, posted by thinkfast on January 21, 2004, at 8:59:51
the 24hr claritin has 240mg....equals out to about 80mg per 8 hours. Take some info on ADD in to your doc....mine had never written an Rx for stims and doesn't believe in ADD, but he let me try it anyway because of the info I brought along.
Posted by SandyWeb on January 21, 2004, at 13:08:46
In reply to Re: Oops...Pseudoephedrine dose, posted by thinkfast on January 21, 2004, at 9:09:43
Well, I just had a lesson in "DON'T EVER DO!" Lol! I took 2 of the 60mg pills, and within an hour I was fairly awake. But I wanted to see just how good of an effect I could get....sooo....I took another 2-3 pills over the course of the morning. I was Speedy Gonzales after that! I was even scrubbing, by hand, stains in the carpet. My, but don't I have a clean house now! Lol!
But, after the speedy experience, I crashed. I just plum tuckered out my wee little body. Remind me never to do that again!!!!
But, I plan on starting my day with 2 pills. I think that may be all I need to help with my energy and focus. I'm not sure what the half-life is on these pills, but hopefully the effect will last for most of the day.
Have a good one!
Sandy
Posted by thinkfast on January 22, 2004, at 5:37:38
In reply to Re: Oops...Pseudoephedrine dose, posted by SandyWeb on January 21, 2004, at 13:08:46
Ha, the Claritin effects me the same way. I find it interesting that the Amphetamines do not effect me in that way as severely as the psedo. Although, the reason for that is it probably effects different parts of the brain??? Are you still debating on asking your doctor about a stim. med?
Posted by SandyWeb on January 22, 2004, at 19:02:23
In reply to Re: Pseudo Amphets., posted by thinkfast on January 22, 2004, at 5:37:38
Hi again!
I don't think I'm going to ask my doctor for stimulants. The last time I saw her, she practically yelled at me that I was a walking poly-pharmacy. Then she began telling me how I would be going into my friends' medicine cabinets and popping a pill here and a pill there. Needless to say, I was shocked and humiliated when she spoke that way to me. But I have the problem of not being able to stand up for myself. So I just said that I wouldn't do that. But she acted so unprofessionally, and I'm embarrassed enough that I'm on any meds at all. Does she think that I enjoy coming in every two months to get a fresh new supply of pills to help me cope with life?? I feel like a total loser, but I put on a brave little face as if I'm doing great. *sigh*
In fact, I'm only on 4 meds: 60mg Celexa, 1600mg Neurontin, 15mg Remeron (for sleep and to reverse the diarrhea from Celexa), and Inderal LA 160mg (to stop the high blood pressure from the Celexa).
Even though I know stimulants would help me....and I REALLY could use the help with my focus right now because I'm a 38-year old full-time University student.....I would feel like a drug-seeking addict if I asked for a stimulant or even tried to tell her that I think I have ADD. I made the mistake of admitting to doing crank years ago, and now she won't even give me Ativan. *sigh*
I guess I'll continue to self-medicate with the pseudoephedrine. It helps when I'm starting my day, but I find that I crash really badly in the afternoon. I don't like that at all. And I don't know if taking the psuedoephedrine will be dangerous to me in the long run.
I wish I had a back-bone.
Sandy
Posted by scott-d-o on January 22, 2004, at 23:25:02
In reply to Re: Pseudo Amphets., posted by SandyWeb on January 22, 2004, at 19:02:23
> Hi again!
>
> I don't think I'm going to ask my doctor for stimulants. The last time I saw her, she practically yelled at me that I was a walking poly-pharmacy. Then she began telling me how I would be going into my friends' medicine cabinets and popping a pill here and a pill there. Needless to say, I was shocked and humiliated when she spoke that way to me. But I have the problem of not being able to stand up for myself. So I just said that I wouldn't do that. But she acted so unprofessionally, and I'm embarrassed enough that I'm on any meds at all. Does she think that I enjoy coming in every two months to get a fresh new supply of pills to help me cope with life?? I feel like a total loser, but I put on a brave little face as if I'm doing great. *sigh*
>
> In fact, I'm only on 4 meds: 60mg Celexa, 1600mg Neurontin, 15mg Remeron (for sleep and to reverse the diarrhea from Celexa), and Inderal LA 160mg (to stop the high blood pressure from the Celexa).
>
> Even though I know stimulants would help me....and I REALLY could use the help with my focus right now because I'm a 38-year old full-time University student.....I would feel like a drug-seeking addict if I asked for a stimulant or even tried to tell her that I think I have ADD. I made the mistake of admitting to doing crank years ago, and now she won't even give me Ativan. *sigh*
>
> I guess I'll continue to self-medicate with the pseudoephedrine. It helps when I'm starting my day, but I find that I crash really badly in the afternoon. I don't like that at all. And I don't know if taking the psuedoephedrine will be dangerous to me in the long run.
>
> I wish I had a back-bone.
>
> Sandy
>I had no doubt pseudoephedrine would cause mania due to it's noradrenergic properties. The reason I said it wouldn't work for ADD is due to it's lack of dopaminergic properties. If mania is all you are looking for, it should work well for you.
Perhaps you should look for a new pdoc. Just don't schedule another appointment at your next visit, say you need to check your schedule and then say that you will call when you know. Then just don't call; not much of a backbone required for that. I know I wouldn't stand for a pdoc who would make me feel humiliated for asking them to consider a certain medication, whatever it may be. I went through three pdocs who were the same way before I was able to settle with one that was reasonable. Obviously I would leave out your experiences with crank with your new pdoc. There is no reason you should be treated any differently because of this, unless you really feel that you would not be able to control yourself if prescribed such a medication. Just be honest with yourself. I used to have a cocaine problem but am now prescribed Klonopin and Ritalin and haven't even considered abusing either.
If there is a respected medical university near you, try to get a recommendation from them; that worked for me. Anyhow, it's not like any of the meds you are taking now are controlled substances, so your new doctor would most likely have no problem placing you right back on the ones you wish to keep.
good luck w/whatever u decide
scott
Posted by Alexander on January 23, 2004, at 3:51:08
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine and ADD, posted by SandyWeb on January 20, 2004, at 17:22:47
wel, everyone is different, but if I had to call a name of something that I most believed that it would not work , ...it would be add (by the way they come in 120mg per pill, too).
They don't cross the BBB and get u too much action in the peripheral NS. ...I guess one could counteract side effects of the like with beta-blockers (which is not meant as an advice, but a mere thought).
> Well, I went out and bought a bottle of 50 pills. They are just a generic pseudoephedrine, 60mg each. It cost less than $8.00.
>
> I am a little nervous to take one, even though people use it for a decongestant without even a second thought about it.
>
> I really hope that it helps provide me with energy and focus. I've tried caffeine pills...as well as coffee itself! (Lol!)....but that doesn't help a great deal.
>
> The problem is that I suffer from anxiety as well, so I have to be careful not to get too stimulated.
>
> Any suggestions as to what dose of pseudoephedrine works best?
>
> Thanks.
>
Posted by SandyWeb on January 23, 2004, at 6:58:22
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine and ADD, posted by Alexander on January 23, 2004, at 3:51:08
No, the pseudoephedrine does not help tremendously. It gives me more energy. I also take a beta blocker, so maybe that is why I don't have many bad side effects from it. But it doesn't help a lot with focus.
I find that 1 pill is not enough and 2 pills makes me too speedy. I don't want the speedy "high", but rather the focus and energy (I always feel tired). The pseudoephedrine helps some....I can focus more on the work I'm doing....BUT it comes along with a "high" that I don't want. Maybe I just have to find a way to tweak my meds with it.
Dopamine is impacted upon by Wellbutrin and also anti-psychotics. I've tried both, and they make my heart race. But I wasn't using a beta blocker at the time. Maybe I could tolerate Wellbutrin now. Just need a backbone to mention it to my doctor.
Posted by scott-d-o on January 23, 2004, at 20:59:23
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine and ADD, posted by SandyWeb on January 23, 2004, at 6:58:22
> No, the pseudoephedrine does not help tremendously. It gives me more energy. I also take a beta blocker, so maybe that is why I don't have many bad side effects from it. But it doesn't help a lot with focus.
>
> I find that 1 pill is not enough and 2 pills makes me too speedy. I don't want the speedy "high", but rather the focus and energy (I always feel tired). The pseudoephedrine helps some....I can focus more on the work I'm doing....BUT it comes along with a "high" that I don't want. Maybe I just have to find a way to tweak my meds with it.
>
> Dopamine is impacted upon by Wellbutrin and also anti-psychotics. I've tried both, and they make my heart race. But I wasn't using a beta blocker at the time. Maybe I could tolerate Wellbutrin now. Just need a backbone to mention it to my doctor.
>Well, most antipsychotics lower dopamine transmission but they can also increase it depending on the dosage you take. However, most of the antipsychotics also effect serotonin, noradrenergic, and even acetylcholine receptors. They also effect dopamine in a much different way than stimulants and I've never heard of any of them being efficacious for ADD. Your right about Wellbutrin being a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, however, it is an extremely mild one at that. It has a much greater impact on noradrenaline (like pseudoephedrine), which I'm sure is the source of any cardiac problems you may have had with the drug. I found Wellbutrin made me manic, while Adderall (a mixture of dextro and levo amphetamine salts) had a calming, focusing affect and almost made me want to go to sleep-- at lower doses of course.
scott
Posted by Karen Moore on January 24, 2004, at 20:09:37
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine and ADD, posted by scott-d-o on January 23, 2004, at 20:59:23
Scott,
Do you have any knowledge or any good resources on how Seroquel specifically effects dopamine levels/recepters depending on dosage? Is it possible that it is actually dopaminergic at low doses?! That would explain a few things... I'm also wondering if there might be a strange counterproductive interaction btween seroquel and amphetamine (adderall)...
Thanks,
km
>
> Well, most antipsychotics lower dopamine transmission but they can also increase it depending on the dosage you take. However, most of the antipsychotics also effect serotonin, noradrenergic, and even acetylcholine receptors. They also effect dopamine in a much different way than stimulants and I've never heard of any of them being efficacious for ADD. Your right about Wellbutrin being a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, however, it is an extremely mild one at that. It has a much greater impact on noradrenaline (like pseudoephedrine), which I'm sure is the source of any cardiac problems you may have had with the drug. I found Wellbutrin made me manic, while Adderall (a mixture of dextro and levo amphetamine salts) had a calming, focusing affect and almost made me want to go to sleep-- at lower doses of course.
>
> scott
Posted by scott-d-o on January 24, 2004, at 22:43:04
In reply to Re: Stimulants, Anti-psychotics, and Dopamine » scott-d-o, posted by Karen Moore on January 24, 2004, at 20:09:37
> Scott,
> Do you have any knowledge or any good resources on how Seroquel specifically effects dopamine levels/recepters depending on dosage? Is it possible that it is actually dopaminergic at low doses?! That would explain a few things... I'm also wondering if there might be a strange counterproductive interaction btween seroquel and amphetamine (adderall)...
> Thanks,
> kmSeroquel is very similar to the older atypical antipsychotic clozapine, in that both are very weak dopamine antagonists and have activity over a very wide range of receptor types, which is why they are regarded to have a very low risk of inducing tardive dyskinsia. I suppose it is possible that Seroquel is dopaminergic at low doses, but you also have to keep in mind that it has a higher affinity for alpha-adrenergic, muscarinic, and histaminic receptors than it actually does for dopamine receptors.
The interaction between antipsychotics and stimulants is a very complex one. Even looking at it in a purely dopaminergic sense, many times antipsychotics will enhance amphetamine-induced dopamine release in certain regions of the brain (usually in prefrontal cortex), and attenuate it in others (usually in the nucleus accumbens.) This makes me think that antipsychotic augmentation could attenuate the euphoric and locomotor response to stimulants, while perhaps enhancing their ability to increase focus and concentration. However, this is only a guess and as you can see, there is a lot going on here.
Sorry, but the best answer I can give you is that they are most likely to oppose each other at theraputically relevant doses. Most studies I have read attempt to determine what doses of certain antipsychotics abolish the locomotor response to stimulants; I've never seen one focus on how they may complement each other; perhaps it is just too complex to even consider.
scott
Posted by Laree on January 25, 2004, at 1:39:18
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine and ADD Update, posted by SandyWeb on January 21, 2004, at 7:19:29
I don't think you can 'tell' if you have ADHD by using something that (to my knowledge) is not used for ADHD ever...?
Also, if you had a problem with amphetamine(s) in the past, I would not recommend getting mixed up with psychostimulants as they are known to be VERY addictive, which you're probably already aware of...
and if you have problems with anxiety they can most certainly exacerbate/cause anxiety...good luck
> I'm wondering if that is a true indication of ADD?
>
> I've never requested a diagnosis because I feel uncomfortable asking my doctor. I used to do a lot of methamphetamine when I was in my 20's, and I'm humiliated that she might think I'm only looking for a high. But when I did "speed", my activities involved: reading voraciously (anything and everything I could find!), doing crosswords for hours, and playing Scrabble!! I could focus on tasks, and I LOVED that!! Again, it appears to be ADD.....but I'm embarassed to mention stimulants to my doctor.
>
> I'd be interested in people's comments. Thanks so much.
>
> SandyWeb
>
Posted by scott-d-o on January 25, 2004, at 2:15:21
In reply to Re: Pseudoephedrine and ADD Update » SandyWeb, posted by Laree on January 25, 2004, at 1:39:18
> I don't think you can 'tell' if you have ADHD by using something that (to my knowledge) is not used for ADHD ever...?
Actually methamphetamine is a schedule II substance (i.e. may have a high abuse potential but still medically useful) and is used, albeit usually as a last resort, for the treatment of ADHD. It is marketed under the brand name 'Desoxyn.' Do a search; I believe there are many on this board that have used, or are currently using it for this purpose. It is also sometimes prescribed for obesity and narcolepsy, as are the other forms of amphetamine.
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