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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ramsea on October 25, 2003, at 23:57:04
Your description of waking is right out of my own book of horrors. I have been misdiagnosed through my many years (now middle-aged) as "classically" depressed, or depressed agitated type, or atypical,etc, as well as Generalized Anxiety Disorder, Panic Disorder, Acute Psychotic episode, schizophrenic, schizo-affective, alcoholic (i.e., "You don't need psychiatry, you're wasting our time, all you need is the 12-step program and a kick up the back side, now get outta here"), depressed over and over, borderline personality disorder (ie. it's your personality that's defective, there's nothing we can do to help you"). Finally, even though a thorough series of tests and interviews were given me by a distinguished psychiatry/clinical psychologist team when I was aged 24, and even though I was told I was bipolar and should be on lithium for life---though I told this to all subsequent psychiatrists, they ignored this diagnosis. Their eyes would glaze over when I'd tell them this. Like, Yeah, yeah, yeah---bipolar my butt.
Doctors are often like dogs, I sometimes think, not because doctors are hairy and have tails, which of course they do, but because they often like to mark out their own territory. The thinking sorta goes---If that last doctor decided this about you, I shall think something else, because I am my own man...
To be fair, I did move around a lot and doctors haven't always had the documentation--though they have always had my word. And if anyone had ever wanted to question me closely and freshly I would gladly have agreed. They were not all that concerned. Or they wouldve asked if I expereinced the symptoms of mania/hypomania or had it in my family, which I do. If they had trusted me enough to listen to what I was saying there would have been much more insight, as I am honest and straight by nature. I believe some of these pdocs and GPs just couldn't tolerate listening to my reality and only wanted to go on what they could see there and then. That could be a useful technique a lot of the time, but not all of the time.
I do believe I was mistreated and misguided through many years, often humiliated, ridiculed, distrusted, told to go "heal myself" and "stop being a nusiance", and all those antidepressants without a mood stabilizer may have caused a great deal more harm then good.But at last I am back to being just plain old bipolar. I only want this label because it indicates the true course of my illness, which has been dangerously manic/hypomanic and seriously, disablingly depresssed--with some periods of wellness in between. My current psychiatric team tells me that agitated depression is often bipolar, Mixed type, and that is what they believe I have always had a tendency to suffer. I was so frightened to fall asleep so many times for fear of the waking horror. I'm happy to say that for me---lithium has made my wakings feel just normal and fine. The sharp, streaking panic is gone.
Oh yeah--I just read this week in a diary excerpt of the genius manic depressive writer Virginia Woolf---she suffered these terrible wakings too. I hope you figure your own situation out with a good pdoc. Maybe you aren't bipolar, but it is worth discovering exactly why they think you are ***not*** bipolar, when many agitated depressions are in bipolar spectrum.
Posted by femlite on October 26, 2003, at 17:27:04
In reply to agitated depression, lithium, posted by ramsea on October 25, 2003, at 23:57:04
Posted by ramsea on October 27, 2003, at 4:03:47
In reply to Well Said....(from one who is ready to jump....) (nm) » ramsea, posted by femlite on October 26, 2003, at 17:27:04
fem, do you want to talk about it? or are you being metaphorical? I am all ears if it would help. this condition sucks. wishing you well. ramsea
Posted by femlite on October 29, 2003, at 23:29:55
In reply to Re: Well Said....(from one who is ready to jump....), posted by ramsea on October 27, 2003, at 4:03:47
Your so sweeeet. Im sorry to scare you, i was being metaphorical
Im up for mania and horror stories if you are.My turn. Because of pdoc#2 I was cruzing along on WB xl after 3-5 weeks of hell. But I was making it.
Pdoc#2 ticked me off by telling me that a side effect I was describing was impossible.NEEEEEXT...
Pdoc#3 offers empathethically that #2 must be impossible to say such a thing, we chuckle and shake our knowing heads. #3 has written four scrips without my even noticing and is shoving me out the door. Wait I thought we could talk..I mean ...why take ativan 3x in stead of klonopin 1 x????? Why aaderall in stead of WB???? "No you just do as I say".
My new scrips for BP are Adderall, ativan, lithium, and ambian for sleep (so much for the ambien)
I take adderall 20mg first thing this morn. For 4 -5 hours I am supermom, as I wax eloqently on history and current events from mel gibsons new movie all the way to East West split at 10,000 ad. I tried to keep my chat to during breakfast and 30 minuntes more. The kids loved it!NOON dreaded noon, the floor fell out from under me, amphtamine crash ( I learned later on)
I had to lock myself in my room so the kids wouldnt have to see the mess.
Doctors receptionist "He doesnt think its serious so he doest want to talk to you till your next apointment, unless you feel you should committ yourself yadah yadah...Now how do I get throgh the rest of this crappy week.... send me lots of good thought eh?
I have 3 WB and some stims that will land me on my head if I take those, oy vetIm off the WB, got a few tabs left, call gp tomarrow, get back to WB and talk with my gp from no on.
(pdoc #3) the jerk He called me a drug seeker Im not very good at this lying business this "You pretend your here for reasons you cant explain and dont know how I can help, and I pretend to listen and ask intelligent questions and voila, I will write you a med scrip and your problems will be solved" blablablab
They dont really trust or have campassion on those they pass sentence on. No humanity exists there..Now how do I get throgh the rest of this crappy week.... send me lots of good thought eh?
Ps I loved your writing, fur and tails ...:)
Posted by ramsea on November 2, 2003, at 9:52:15
In reply to Re: Well Said....(from one who is ready to jump....) » ramsea, posted by femlite on October 29, 2003, at 23:29:55
Ya made me laugh too, can always use that :)
But am sorry you're going through such a morass of crap. I have come across this "drugseeking behavior" accusation. It can be a Catch22 thing. A patient may go years being considered by pros to have "lack of insight" into his/her condition.The pros give this patient a hard time, tell her/him to smarten up, learn about the illness, be more proactive. Soooooooo....said patient goes to lots and lots of trouble in order to learn the ins and outs of the affliction, the medications that can help it, warning signs, symptoms, triggers.....
Lo and behold, the now insightful patient goes to the psychiatrist and says, Look I am having these warning signs--it has spelled trouble in the past. And I know that this amount of thus and so med will probably help ward off an episode...
Psychiatrist notes that the patient is arrogant, lacks insight, and displays drug-seeking behavior.
Moral of the story?? Whatever you do short of outright legal insanity, you will prolly be accused of manipulating for either attention, drugs, or to get out of your responsibilities.The trick is to be ahead of their manipulations by at least one, since they think you are already "manipulating". Or just be open and honest as you have been and expect that you will be widely misunderstood, though eventually may get what you need. I sincerely hope you achieve the latter, and soon. Please do write to say.
Posted by femlite on November 4, 2003, at 7:14:20
In reply to Re: Well Said....(from one who is ready to jump....), posted by ramsea on November 2, 2003, at 9:52:15
Hey Ramsea,
Thanks for the sympathy. I have also squarely laid the blame at Dr. Bobs' door, but he's ducking. (see "Dr. Bob made me a drug seeker)its still on the current page.
Why is no one else asking Dr. Bob to accept some responsibility for turning us into knowledgable consumers; read "drug seeker"? Am I deluded? Am I the only one who doesnt get the Dr. Bob experiment?
I didnt know ativan from marzipam before I found this web sight. Oh well, they got us by the balls now,eh? We're hooked. Hooked on the idea that if we have just enough knowledge about ourselves and what's medicinally available, we can find the blue bird of happiness :) oh yeah, with the help of some all knowing demi god with a scrip pad, cant forget that. (Sickos) Do I sound a little down?Well new pdoc (is it 4 or 5 im loosing track) is coming up on Wed. the 5th.
This would make a great "Dating Game" theme."Um, pdoc number 2, (giggle giggle)"When you offer a girl WBsr and she says she'd rather have the most recently patented WBxl, what would you say"?
Wish me luck
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 4, 2003, at 7:58:16
In reply to Let's Play the Dating Gaaaaame! » ramsea, posted by femlite on November 4, 2003, at 7:14:20
Real experiences vs Drug Producers hype and advertisements? Is that such a bad thing?
> Hey Ramsea,
> Thanks for the sympathy. I have also squarely laid the blame at Dr. Bobs' door, but he's ducking. (see "Dr. Bob made me a drug seeker)its still on the current page.
> Why is no one else asking Dr. Bob to accept some responsibility for turning us into knowledgable consumers; read "drug seeker"? Am I deluded? Am I the only one who doesnt get the Dr. Bob experiment?
> I didnt know ativan from marzipam before I found this web sight. Oh well, they got us by the balls now,eh? We're hooked. Hooked on the idea that if we have just enough knowledge about ourselves and what's medicinally available, we can find the blue bird of happiness :) oh yeah, with the help of some all knowing demi god with a scrip pad, cant forget that. (Sickos) Do I sound a little down?
>
> Well new pdoc (is it 4 or 5 im loosing track) is coming up on Wed. the 5th.
> This would make a great "Dating Game" theme.
>
> "Um, pdoc number 2, (giggle giggle)"When you offer a girl WBsr and she says she'd rather have the most recently patented WBxl, what would you say"?
> Wish me luck
Posted by femlite on November 4, 2003, at 21:34:45
In reply to Consumer's Digest for Medicine » femlite, posted by KimberlyDi on November 4, 2003, at 7:58:16
I appreciate your (no doubt) more balanced perspective than mine, but Im an idealist. Its very depressing for me when personal expererience doesnt translate into real life. Im having a hard time killing these wildly unrealistic expectations I have, that someone (a pdoc) will actually listen, and not get his or her professional nose bent out of joint when I want to add something to conversation.
Sorry, Im just totally bummed right now
Posted by femlite on November 4, 2003, at 21:40:51
In reply to Consumer's Digest for Medicine » femlite, posted by KimberlyDi on November 4, 2003, at 7:58:16
Posted by almondjoy on November 4, 2003, at 22:09:51
In reply to Re: Well Said....(from one who is ready to jump....) » ramsea, posted by femlite on October 29, 2003, at 23:29:55
i know what you mean...doctors make me feel like medicine is a ridiculous waste of time and energy from shrink #1...GAD (ativan) to shrink #2... borderline personality, depression (Zoloft, Prozac, Risperdal, ECT) to shrink #3 (ativan and as many AD as i can swallow) to shrink #4 bipolar (Zyprexa) to shrink #5 to shrink #6 major depesion and inbetween obgyn who says who cares if you're bleeding 6 weeks, it can't kill you to obgyn #2 abnormal uterine bleeding to doc #3 talk to your shrink to doc #4 no your thyroid is fine (even tho hereditary prob) are you trying to lose weight? call me in a year and talk to your shrink and case workers and financial counselors and receptionists and ahhhhhhhhhh
Posted by femlite on November 4, 2003, at 22:38:06
In reply to fustration, posted by almondjoy on November 4, 2003, at 22:09:51
Hi Almond,
many blessing and sweet thoughts coming your way from me.
warmest regards
((((((ALMONDJOY))))))
Posted by KimberlyDi on November 5, 2003, at 8:22:58
In reply to Re: Consumer's Digest for Medicine » KimberlyDi, posted by femlite on November 4, 2003, at 21:34:45
> I appreciate your (no doubt) more balanced perspective than mine,
believe me, there's doubt... :)
but Im an idealist. Its very depressing for me when personal expererience doesnt translate into real life. Im having a hard time killing these wildly unrealistic expectations I have, that someone (a pdoc) will actually listen, and not get his or her professional nose bent out of joint when I want to add something to conversation.
i agree completely with that. a degree should not give a doctor a "god-like" mentality looking down upon us mere mortals. i don't believe a doctor will study every possible detail of an individual's case the way the individual will.
> Sorry, Im just totally bummed right now.
you know what? so am I. i just direct negative feelings inward, not outwards. i hope you get to feeling better. sorry if I came out antagonistic. you are passionate in your quest! :)
kdi
Posted by AnneL on November 5, 2003, at 9:45:53
In reply to Consumer Digest - is that really th purpose of PB? (nm) » KimberlyDi, posted by femlite on November 4, 2003, at 21:40:51
In my over 25 years of being part of the healthcare profession - and believe me it dosen't matter whether the specialty is cardiology or psychiatry, even the very best physicians, those I define as truly having the best interests of their patients at "heart", do the following:
1. Make mistakes;
2. Do not spend sufficient time with their
patients;
3. Don't like certain "types" of patients;
4. Rely heavily on their underlings to make
sure their mistakes are caught;
5. Spend enormous amounts of time keeping
their referring docs "happy";
6. Have unrealistic patient loads which creates
problem number 2 in the first place;
7. Get frustrated just like you and I when
they can't solve a problem;
8. Prescribe "something" to get you out of the
office and then they will "deal" with it
at the next visit;
9. Think that you are a "great" patient when
something "works" well;
10. May have something on their mind that does not
include YOU at your scheduled appointment!So we agree that there is no magic pill and many can be quite "jagged". (Ace will certainly disagree with me and I will gladly concede this point - just for him!) The point to all of this?
1. We are "consumers" - we swallow that jagged
little pill, right?
2. In many instances, you, yes that's right YOU
may know more than your MD about certain Meds.
3. Finding a good heart doctor is easier than
finding a good shrink.
4. If your shrink stinks, fire him and move on!
5. Above all, use your built-in intuition if you
you do not feel that your interests are high
on your doctor's list of priorties.My opinions are expressly my own and I take responsibility for everything I have said. AnneL
Posted by femlite on November 6, 2003, at 10:39:32
In reply to Re: Consumer's Digest for Medicine, posted by KimberlyDi on November 5, 2003, at 8:22:58
Posted by femlite on November 6, 2003, at 11:30:42
In reply to Jagged Little Pill - Today's Practice of Medicine, posted by AnneL on November 5, 2003, at 9:45:53
Its point number 6 that makes a cynic out of me. During a phone call to my last pdoc, on the day I called to find out why I was falling hysterically apart 5 hours after taking adderall, I was told by the secretary , "He has patients back to back till 8pm this evening and I will give him your message" He actually did call me back to rudely tell me he "couldnt spend all day on the phone with his patients"
Why, in Gods name would a doctor schedule so many patients in one day. I can guess, but maybe you can shed some light on my absolutly cynical assumptions. Most docs are the same.
Is it REALLY to pay those high insurance premiums?
I know I dont have a new car and little prospect of owning one. And my husband makes good money. We make sacrifices, like my staying home with the kids because its what we believe in.
If the the health care profession is in such a continuous decline of altruism, what hope do we have?
As cynical as my view may seem, these are not rhetorical questions.
I deeply appreciate your reply> In my over 25 years of being part of the healthcare profession - and believe me it dosen't matter whether the specialty is cardiology or psychiatry, even the very best physicians, those I define as truly having the best interests of their patients at "heart", do the following:
>
> 1. Make mistakes;
> 2. Do not spend sufficient time with their
> patients;
> 3. Don't like certain "types" of patients;
> 4. Rely heavily on their underlings to make
> sure their mistakes are caught;
> 5. Spend enormous amounts of time keeping
> their referring docs "happy";
> 6. Have unrealistic patient loads which creates
> problem number 2 in the first place;
> 7. Get frustrated just like you and I when
> they can't solve a problem;
> 8. Prescribe "something" to get you out of the
> office and then they will "deal" with it
> at the next visit;
> 9. Think that you are a "great" patient when
> something "works" well;
> 10. May have something on their mind that does not
> include YOU at your scheduled appointment!
>
> So we agree that there is no magic pill and many can be quite "jagged". (Ace will certainly disagree with me and I will gladly concede this point - just for him!) The point to all of this?
>
> 1. We are "consumers" - we swallow that jagged
> little pill, right?
> 2. In many instances, you, yes that's right YOU
> may know more than your MD about certain Meds.
> 3. Finding a good heart doctor is easier than
> finding a good shrink.
> 4. If your shrink stinks, fire him and move on!
> 5. Above all, use your built-in intuition if you
> you do not feel that your interests are high
> on your doctor's list of priorties.
>
> My opinions are expressly my own and I take responsibility for everything I have said. AnneL
>
Posted by femlite on November 6, 2003, at 15:44:56
In reply to Jagged Little Pill - Today's Practice of Medicine, posted by AnneL on November 5, 2003, at 9:45:53
Hi Ann
I was in a hurry to finish that last letter.
What I ment was I deeply appreciated your original letter (reply).
If you have any insights to add to my last diatribe, thats fine, but totally (of course) up to you.
Posted by Clayton on November 6, 2003, at 15:59:06
In reply to Jagged Little Pill - Today's Practice of Medicine, posted by AnneL on November 5, 2003, at 9:45:53
You are so right. While there have been fantastic advances in neurology, "brain science" and medications, we are still LITTERALLY in the DARK AGES of mental health medicine (in 200 years, I have faith it will be better). I mean leaches and blood-letting. No one has a clue how memory works. More to the point, no one understands the mechanism of action of a single antidepressant (or other psychotropic) used alone in a patient. When multiple psychotropics are prescribed, it's a chemical soup and Russian Roulette with your brain. Read the pharmacology reports or info sheets from your phamacist.
Everyone's health is their own responsibility. So educate the hell out of yourself, use every resource at your disposal to find the best doctor you can and don't hesitate to change if your gut tells you the doc is not right. One sign of a good doc is that they will admit that psychiatry is an art and treatments are based on judgements, intuition and best guesses and that he/she could get it wrong the first time or two. Any doctor who tells you that your prescription is based mostly on scientific understanding is a good doc to abandon. They aren't bad people. They are human. Many committ their live to trying to eliminate suffering and are frustrated when they learn how limited are the assets they can deply to diagnose and treat. Many succumb to believing they can do more than is possible in this era.
So, take personal responsibility for your own medical problems, educate yourself cocerning the problems and possible treatments, use every resource you can to select the best doc, accept that any treatment selected will be a best guess and find a different doctor when your iintuition and brain tell you to do so.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 7, 2003, at 1:30:13
In reply to Re: Jagged Little Pill - Today's Practice of Medicine » AnneL, posted by Clayton on November 6, 2003, at 15:59:06
> While there have been fantastic advances in neurology, "brain science" and medications, we are still LITTERALLY in the DARK AGES of mental health medicine (in 200 years, I have faith it will be better).
I'd like follow-ups regarding mental health medicine in general to be redirected to Psycho-Social-Babble, thanks.
Bob
PS: And those regarding posting policies to be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
This is the end of the thread.
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