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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by freedom2001 on August 11, 2003, at 9:50:03
reply
This response submitted by on 9/30/99.
Email Address:Sorry, I should have been more specific. My son has TS, ADHD, ODD, some OCD and learning disabilities (visual processing and fine motor skills). He is 10 and weighs 65 pounds. He is very tall and thin for his age. He has a very poor appetite and recently I learned that he is not digesting his foods properly in his stomach nor absorbing long chain fatty acids in his intestines. I give my son a complete nutritional program that has been designed, partly on my understanding of his errant biochemistry, clinical testing that has been done, and the nutrient suggestions for alcoholics, described in Joan M. Larson's book "Seven Weeks to Sobriety". There are many alcoholics on both sides of the family. I have postulated that many, if not all, of my son's problems are due to the fact that he has inherited a bad set of genes, that predispose him to alcoholism, but are currently causing him neurological problems, even if he doesn't drink alcohol.
Larson describes four types of alcoholic metabolism. My son belongs to two possible categories. The most prominent category is the one in which acetaldehyde is generated as an intermediate compound in the body. In normal folks, acetyaldehyde is degraded rapidly, but in certain sub-populations of alcoholics, acetyaldehyde is slow to degrade and in the interim, does alot of damage to cells because it is very toxic. I have traced the biochemistry of these reactions and have found that this toxicity likely affects the following neurotransmitters: acetylcholine, serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine and epinephrine, which each in turn, show up in my son as some type of symptom (probably in response to glucose intake), eg lack of appetite, nausea, depression, tics, etc. From his symptoms, I deduced that he was low in these neurotransmitters. This was recently confirmed by a neurotransmitter blood test done by Vitamin Diagnostics, Cliftwood Beach NJ (732-583-7773). Physicans will use the same list of symptoms to decide which medications to prescribe. However, for reasons too lengthy to detail, I had used the list of symptoms to decide which nutrient supplements to give my son. But in so doing, I have been through an incredible learning process of how to PROPERLY give nutrients. Unless given properly, nutrients can be ineffective or cause deficiencies in other nutrients. Therefore, it is better to do this with the help of a physician who is knowledgeable in this. However, I couldn't find such a person for more than 1.5 years, so I proceeded to learn on my own. I keep modifying my program somewhat, but basically, this is what it is like today:Before each meal, a general digestive aid to help my son completely digest his food. This has eliminated 90% of his stomach problems.
Before breakfast and dinner, an amino acid balanced mix to which I have added 500 mg N-acetyl cysteine (to counteract acetaldehyde toxic effects), 500 mg glutamine (to reduce sweet cravings), 250 mg tyrosine to boost dopamine levels.
After breakfast and dinner, a vitamin B complex (Country Life - 25 mg of activated vitamin Bs) to which I have also added 250 mg B1, 50 mg of the P-5-P form of B6, B2, 200 mg Mg (to activate the B1), 15 mg Zn (to activate the B6), 100 mg DMAE (dimethylaminoethanol) and 50 mg of alpha lipoic acid.
After breakfast, I also include a capsule of 500 mg Ester C to which I have added 25 mg 5-HTP (to boost serotonin levels), 500 mg niacin, 2 mcg Cr, 25 mg 7-hydroxy-DHEA. Most of this is given to nourish my son's adrenal glands to stop his intermittant bouts of hypoglycemia and concurrent rage tantrums.
After dinner, my son must also take a capsule of a multi mineral mix from Twin Labs. THis contains Ca, Mg, Zn, Se, Cr, Cu, etc. Many of these minerals are needed to metabolically active the B vitamins. If you give large doses of B vitamins, without the minerals, you can rapidly deplete the body of the necessary minerals, causing other problems.
My son is too embarassed to take vitamins at school, so he must take them at snack at 3 PM. This consists of an antioxidant mix (E, silymarin, glutathione, grape seed extract, coenzyme Q, 50 mg B1 in the form of allithiamine)two capusles of 500 mg DHA/200 mg EPA and 1000 mg capsule of flax oil with borage oil. I have been advised that the oils are better absrobed on an empty stomach and in the absence of Ca or Mg.
No question, it is alot. To minimize the number of capsules, 4 at each meal/snack, I unpack and repack capsules to get the right mix. At 10, my son is able to swallow size 0 capsules. Compliance is always an issue, but I give him positive rewards for it. I have very good, sound biochemical reasons for including each and every one of the components, but don't have time to describe. This program has been designed specifically for my son and his symptoms. It is helping my son alot. It has eliminated his tics, most of his nausea, his depression, his rage tantrums, various skin problems. It has improved his stamina, focus and some visual processing problems. I am still not sure that I have got everything right. So I will probably continue to modify it as I receive new data from various clinical tests. It is clear to me that my son has a set of bad genes causing his problems. To be somewhat normal, he will either have to take nutrient supplements or medications for the rest of his life.
I hope this helps. To get a better explanation, I suggest you read Larson's book, that is if there is alcoholism in the family. Or you can check the Tourettes forum for references to Bonnie Grimaldi's vitamin program. It is a general one that has helped alot of people. Many parents also report a dramatic decrease in tics with 1 tablespoon of flax oil per day. This didn't help my son, but then I learned he is not absorbing oil through his intestines very well. Good luck. Best to look for a physician who can help. Use these forums for recommendations in different parts of the country.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 11, 2003, at 22:41:48
In reply to PORPER COMBINATION OF VITAMINS AND MINERALS, posted by freedom2001 on August 11, 2003, at 9:50:03
A very comprehensive and balanced supplementation regime. I tip my hat to you. If you'll accept a couple comments....
I'd generally recommend niacinamide over niacin, or at least, partitioned so that you get some niacinamide. Although they share some beneficial effects, their actions are also distinctive.
>two capusles of 500 mg DHA/200 mg EPA and 1000 mg capsule of flax oil with borage oil. I have been advised that the oils are better absrobed on an empty stomach and in the absence of Ca or Mg.
Fatty acid supplements are best absorbed when taken with a meal also high in other fats. When taken on an empty stomach, polyunsaturates are subject to possible oxidative cleavage from hydrochloric acid, yielding aldehydes and other products, and contributing to indigestion. When taken with a fatty meal, the other fats are sufficiently strong a signal to the gall bladder to release lipase and surfactants (bile), which substantially enhance fatty acid uptake in the intestine. Usually, the quantity of supplemental fatty acids (a few grams) is insufficient to trigger the release of lipase, on its own.> No question, it is alot. To minimize the number of capsules, 4 at each meal/snack, I unpack and repack capsules to get the right mix. At 10, my son is able to swallow size 0 capsules. Compliance is always an issue, but I give him positive rewards for it. I have very good, sound biochemical reasons for including each and every one of the components, but don't have time to describe. This program has been designed specifically for my son and his symptoms. It is helping my son alot. It has eliminated his tics, most of his nausea, his depression, his rage tantrums, various skin problems.
The nausea might be further reduced by betaine, and/or B-12. Both are methyl donors, and contribute indirectly to proper digestive function, with respect to the timing of acid and enzyme release in the stomach, their quantities, and subsequent to that, proper peristaltic movement of the food through the entire digestive tract.
>It has improved his stamina, focus and some visual processing problems. I am still not sure that I have got everything right. So I will probably continue to modify it as I receive new data from various clinical tests. It is clear to me that my son has a set of bad genes causing his problems. To be somewhat normal, he will either have to take nutrient supplements or medications for the rest of his life.
I hear you on that one. I'm happy you've intervened so early on in his life. It took me many years of illness before I "got a similar message".
> I hope this helps. To get a better explanation, I suggest you read Larson's book, that is if there is alcoholism in the family. Or you can check the Tourettes forum for references to Bonnie Grimaldi's vitamin program.Thanks. I used to monitor that group, but it got hostile for a while. I'll take another look.
>It is a general one that has helped alot of people. Many parents also report a dramatic decrease in tics with 1 tablespoon of flax oil per day. This didn't help my son, but then I learned he is not absorbing oil through his intestines very well.
That may be due to occult, or sub-clinical sensitivity to gluten, gliaden (both in wheat, and a lesser extent, in rye, barley and oats), or casein, in dairy products. I presume your son has been diagnosed with steatorrhea, as a confirmation of the poor fat absorption? A brief trial of an elimination diet will probably confirm such sensitivities, without the need to resort to biopsy or endoscopy.
>Good luck. Best to look for a physician who can help. Use these forums for recommendations in different parts of the country.
Thanks for posting.
Lar
Posted by freedom2001 on August 11, 2003, at 23:51:03
In reply to Re: PORPER COMBINATION OF VITAMINS AND MINERALS » freedom2001, posted by Larry Hoover on August 11, 2003, at 22:41:48
> A very comprehensive and balanced supplementation regime. I tip my hat to you. If you'll accept a couple comments....
Hi Larry, actually these posts are taken from another website. I got a few questions for you though.
>
> I'd generally recommend niacinamide over niacin, or at least, partitioned so that you get some niacinamide. Although they share some beneficial effects, their actions are also distinctive.Can you explain to me about the distinctive actions in more details?
>
> >two capusles of 500 mg DHA/200 mg EPA and 1000 mg capsule of flax oil with borage oil. I have been advised that the oils are better absrobed on an empty stomach and in the absence of Ca or Mg.
>
> Fatty acid supplements are best absorbed when taken with a meal also high in other fats. When taken on an empty stomach, polyunsaturates are subject to possible oxidative cleavage from hydrochloric acid, yielding aldehydes and other products, and contributing to indigestion. When taken with a fatty meal, the other fats are sufficiently strong a signal to the gall bladder to release lipase and surfactants (bile), which substantially enhance fatty acid uptake in the intestine. Usually, the quantity of supplemental fatty acids (a few grams) is insufficient to trigger the release of lipase, on its own.I'm taking 3 softgels of high concentration fish oils every night with 25 mg of trazodone without meal. Is that okay?
I'm already taking prozac, clonazepam, B, C and D Vitamins, Calcium, Magnesium and zinc along with meals to counter my OCD. I discovered that if I take fish oil along with all these at the same time, I will have stomach diarhhoea.
What's your advice?
>
> > No question, it is alot. To minimize the number of capsules, 4 at each meal/snack, I unpack and repack capsules to get the right mix. At 10, my son is able to swallow size 0 capsules. Compliance is always an issue, but I give him positive rewards for it. I have very good, sound biochemical reasons for including each and every one of the components, but don't have time to describe. This program has been designed specifically for my son and his symptoms. It is helping my son alot. It has eliminated his tics, most of his nausea, his depression, his rage tantrums, various skin problems.
>
> The nausea might be further reduced by betaine, and/or B-12. Both are methyl donors, and contribute indirectly to proper digestive function, with respect to the timing of acid and enzyme release in the stomach, their quantities, and subsequent to that, proper peristaltic movement of the food through the entire digestive tract.
>
> >It has improved his stamina, focus and some visual processing problems. I am still not sure that I have got everything right. So I will probably continue to modify it as I receive new data from various clinical tests. It is clear to me that my son has a set of bad genes causing his problems. To be somewhat normal, he will either have to take nutrient supplements or medications for the rest of his life.
>
> I hear you on that one. I'm happy you've intervened so early on in his life. It took me many years of illness before I "got a similar message".
>
> > I hope this helps. To get a better explanation, I suggest you read Larson's book, that is if there is alcoholism in the family. Or you can check the Tourettes forum for references to Bonnie Grimaldi's vitamin program.
>
> Thanks. I used to monitor that group, but it got hostile for a while. I'll take another look.
>
> >It is a general one that has helped alot of people. Many parents also report a dramatic decrease in tics with 1 tablespoon of flax oil per day. This didn't help my son, but then I learned he is not absorbing oil through his intestines very well.
>
> That may be due to occult, or sub-clinical sensitivity to gluten, gliaden (both in wheat, and a lesser extent, in rye, barley and oats), or casein, in dairy products. I presume your son has been diagnosed with steatorrhea, as a confirmation of the poor fat absorption? A brief trial of an elimination diet will probably confirm such sensitivities, without the need to resort to biopsy or endoscopy.
>
> >Good luck. Best to look for a physician who can help. Use these forums for recommendations in different parts of the country.
>
> Thanks for posting.
>
> Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 13, 2003, at 7:33:53
In reply to Re: PORPER COMBINATION OF VITAMINS AND MINERALS » Larry Hoover, posted by freedom2001 on August 11, 2003, at 23:51:03
> > A very comprehensive and balanced supplementation regime. I tip my hat to you. If you'll accept a couple comments....
>
> Hi Larry, actually these posts are taken from another website.I checked out Grimaldi's site. Pretty comprehensive, really. She supplies too much zinc in her supplements, though. Potentially toxic, in a child.
> I got a few questions for you though.
Questions! Cool.
> >
> > I'd generally recommend niacinamide over niacin, or at least, partitioned so that you get some niacinamide. Although they share some beneficial effects, their actions are also distinctive.
>
> Can you explain to me about the distinctive actions in more details?Niacin causes mast cell degranulation (histamine release), and induces prostaglandin E2 (off the top of my head, I think that's the one) synthesis. PGE2 is pro-inflammatory and is, in part, responsible for the niacin flush effect. Niacin also is capable of reducing blood cholesterol. It is generally thought to be excitatory (stimulating).
Niacinamide blocks mast cell degranulation, and PGE2 synthesis. It does not affect cholesterol. It also binds to the GABA receptor, and acts both as an agonist (it calms you like a mild benzo), and as a potentiator of your own GABA. There are other differences, but that's a start.
There is bound to be interconversion of the two forms, unless your enzymes are messed up. Enzymes don't know "direction"; although we usually think of a stream from niacin to niacinamide and on towards NADH, taking a bunch of niacinamide will cause some "back-conversion" to niacin, but the effect of the niacinamide will still be dominant. BTW, this may be why some people get the flush reaction from niacinamide; their enzymes are particularly effective in that conversion.
> >
> > >two capusles of 500 mg DHA/200 mg EPA and 1000 mg capsule of flax oil with borage oil. I have been advised that the oils are better absrobed on an empty stomach and in the absence of Ca or Mg.
> >
> > Fatty acid supplements are best absorbed when taken with a meal also high in other fats. When taken on an empty stomach, polyunsaturates are subject to possible oxidative cleavage from hydrochloric acid, yielding aldehydes and other products, and contributing to indigestion. When taken with a fatty meal, the other fats are sufficiently strong a signal to the gall bladder to release lipase and surfactants (bile), which substantially enhance fatty acid uptake in the intestine. Usually, the quantity of supplemental fatty acids (a few grams) is insufficient to trigger the release of lipase, on its own.
>
> I'm taking 3 softgels of high concentration fish oils every night with 25 mg of trazodone without meal. Is that okay?Your body's reactions supercede my advice.
> I'm already taking prozac, clonazepam, B, C and D Vitamins, Calcium, Magnesium and zinc along with meals to counter my OCD. I discovered that if I take fish oil along with all these at the same time, I will have stomach diarhhoea.
>
> What's your advice?Do what works for you. Taking fish oil on an empty stomach enhances the likelihood of "rancid fish burps". In the absence of food, your stomach acid is more likely to hydrolyze the triglycerides in the fish oil, yielding free fatty acids. Those free fatty acids can also undergo acid-catalyzed oxidation, yielding aldehydes with unpleasant characteristics. The presence of food would also dilute them, so it's kind of a double whammy.
You're still going to absorb a good proportion of the beneficial components of the fish oil, whether or not you take it with food, or whether or not you take it with other supplements. You have figured out a way to get your body to tolerate these supps, and I say, "Good for you."
I'd advise adding in some antioxidants, other than vitamin C. These might be: vitamin E, 400-800 IU/day; selenium, 200 mcg/day; alpha-lipoic acid, 50-200 mg/day.
Lar
Posted by freedom2001 on August 13, 2003, at 11:26:03
In reply to Re: VITAMINS AND MINERALS » freedom2001, posted by Larry Hoover on August 13, 2003, at 7:33:53
> > > A very comprehensive and balanced supplementation regime. I tip my hat to you. If you'll accept a couple comments....
> >
> > Hi Larry, actually these posts are taken from another website.
>
> I checked out Grimaldi's site. Pretty comprehensive, really. She supplies too much zinc in her supplements, though. Potentially toxic, in a child.Nature's Farm pharmacy in Singapore told me that the upper limit for zinc is 100mg. Is that true?
>
> > I got a few questions for you though.
>
> Questions! Cool.
>
> > >
> > > I'd generally recommend niacinamide over niacin, or at least, partitioned so that you get some niacinamide. Although they share some beneficial effects, their actions are also distinctive.
> >
> > Can you explain to me about the distinctive actions in more details?
>
> Niacin causes mast cell degranulation (histamine release), and induces prostaglandin E2 (off the top of my head, I think that's the one) synthesis. PGE2 is pro-inflammatory and is, in part, responsible for the niacin flush effect. Niacin also is capable of reducing blood cholesterol. It is generally thought to be excitatory (stimulating).
>
> Niacinamide blocks mast cell degranulation, and PGE2 synthesis. It does not affect cholesterol. It also binds to the GABA receptor, and acts both as an agonist (it calms you like a mild benzo), and as a potentiator of your own GABA. There are other differences, but that's a start.
>
> There is bound to be interconversion of the two forms, unless your enzymes are messed up. Enzymes don't know "direction"; although we usually think of a stream from niacin to niacinamide and on towards NADH, taking a bunch of niacinamide will cause some "back-conversion" to niacin, but the effect of the niacinamide will still be dominant. BTW, this may be why some people get the flush reaction from niacinamide; their enzymes are particularly effective in that conversion.So Niacinamide is actually a mild benzo. Kool. But at what dose will it be effective? 5mg? 10mg? 50mg?
>
> > >
> > > >two capusles of 500 mg DHA/200 mg EPA and 1000 mg capsule of flax oil with borage oil. I have been advised that the oils are better absrobed on an empty stomach and in the absence of Ca or Mg.
> > >
> > > Fatty acid supplements are best absorbed when taken with a meal also high in other fats. When taken on an empty stomach, polyunsaturates are subject to possible oxidative cleavage from hydrochloric acid, yielding aldehydes and other products, and contributing to indigestion. When taken with a fatty meal, the other fats are sufficiently strong a signal to the gall bladder to release lipase and surfactants (bile), which substantially enhance fatty acid uptake in the intestine. Usually, the quantity of supplemental fatty acids (a few grams) is insufficient to trigger the release of lipase, on its own.
> >
> > I'm taking 3 softgels of high concentration fish oils every night with 25 mg of trazodone without meal. Is that okay?
>
> Your body's reactions supercede my advice.I don't understand what you're trying to tell me here, larry.
>
> > I'm already taking prozac, clonazepam, B, C and D Vitamins, Calcium, Magnesium and zinc along with meals to counter my OCD. I discovered that if I take fish oil along with all these at the same time, I will have stomach diarhhoea.
> >
> > What's your advice?
>
> Do what works for you. Taking fish oil on an empty stomach enhances the likelihood of "rancid fish burps". In the absence of food, your stomach acid is more likely to hydrolyze the triglycerides in the fish oil, yielding free fatty acids. Those free fatty acids can also undergo acid-catalyzed oxidation, yielding aldehydes with unpleasant characteristics. The presence of food would also dilute them, so it's kind of a double whammy.
>
> You're still going to absorb a good proportion of the beneficial components of the fish oil, whether or not you take it with food, or whether or not you take it with other supplements. You have figured out a way to get your body to tolerate these supps, and I say, "Good for you."
>
> I'd advise adding in some antioxidants, other than vitamin C. These might be: vitamin E, 400-800 IU/day; selenium, 200 mcg/day; alpha-lipoic acid, 50-200 mg/day.Will these additional E, Selenium, alpha-lipoic acid help to reduce my OCD sufferings?
What about Methione?
Many thanks.
Freedom2001.
>
> Lar
Posted by DSCH on August 13, 2003, at 12:29:16
In reply to Re: VITAMINS AND MINERALS » Larry Hoover, posted by freedom2001 on August 13, 2003, at 11:26:03
http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/subtypes.htm
Pfeiffer's experience is that OCD nearly always points to a high-histamine/under-methylating imbalance.
Benefical: Calcium, methionine, magnesium, zinc, TMG, omega-3 oils, B6, SAMe, inositol, A, C and E
Avoid: Folate, choline, DMAE, copper and histidine
Posted by freedom2001 on August 13, 2003, at 13:29:28
In reply to Re: VITAMINS AND MINERALS » freedom2001, posted by DSCH on August 13, 2003, at 12:29:16
> http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/subtypes.htm
>
> Pfeiffer's experience is that OCD nearly always points to a high-histamine/under-methylating imbalance.
>
> Benefical: Calcium, methionine, magnesium, zinc, TMG, omega-3 oils, B6, SAMe, inositol, A, C and E
>
> Avoid: Folate, choline, DMAE, copper and histidine
>
>
>
Thanks Larry. That was an excellent source of information.More questions for you:
I extracted this from google:
GOALS OF OCD PHARMACOLOGIC TREATMENT
v Receptor balance is key.v ^ 5HT2 and 5HT2 – from raphe nuclei - (resulting in decrease in OCD, depression and anxiety and increase in sexual side effects) Accomplished with SSRI/SRI drugs.
v ^ 5HT1A (resulting in decrease in sexual side effects) Accomplished with Buspar.
v ^ Striatal D1 and D2 and Metabolic GluCmGlu (resulting in decrease in OCD, anxiety and depression) Accomplished with Inositol.
v Arginine, vasopressin (AVP) and oxytocin are negatively correlated with OCD – but not in OCD with tics! = complex.
v Homovanillic acid is primary central dopamine metabolite – Inositol.
v OCD patients has lower level of adrenocorticotropic hormone (ACTH) due to pituitary desensitization to persistently elevated CSF corticotrophin releasing factor (CRF)
OCD sufferers have elevated levels of vasopressin and CRF. Are these two part of the causes of OCD or are they the results of OCD? I myself think that they are the RESULTS of OCD.
What about you?
And does reducing vasopressin and CRF help to reduce my OCD? If it helps, how to reduce my vasopressin and CRF?
Regards,
Freedom.
Posted by DSCH on August 13, 2003, at 15:26:09
In reply to Re: VITAMINS AND MINERALS » freedom2001, posted by DSCH on August 13, 2003, at 12:29:16
I just look 500 mg inositol a few minutes ago and have been drinking lots of ice water. I've been geting warmer, sweating more, and feeling more and more perheriperal type agitation since late morning. Thank goodness I got to GNC and picked up inositol among other things I wanted, hopefully its GABA action will help settle this down. I've been feeling flavors blossom on my tounge too.
This morning, like the past several, I took 37.5 mg pemoline, a GNC B-50 time release, and two 400mg DLPA. I microwaved some roast beef leftover from last night for breakfast because eating anything sugary or starchy has been hammering me with somewhat worse versions of my old sympotms of lethargy, indecision, fatigue, motor retardation, etc.. which I'm guessing is an effect of insulin release. I think it's fair to say I have enough aminos in my system right now, thank you! And no afternoon pemoline and DLPA!
It seems to have peaked now, no more taste sensations popping up. Don't feel so heated.
Any suggestions for what I do next? This was rather scarrier than the times I drank too much iced tea when I was taking pemoline and no supplements.
Oh, Freedom, I am not Larry LOL ;-)
Posted by DSCH on August 13, 2003, at 18:18:40
In reply to Feeling mighty powerful effects right now, posted by DSCH on August 13, 2003, at 15:26:09
The excessive stimulation faded on its own I think. The inositol has been gradual in coming on and has had *very* interesting effects. Cyclical superorbital headache, annoying but not too bad, pulsing on and then off with a period of a few minutes, and it's weakened but not gone away entirely yet. Occasionally had the feeling that my throat was being tickled too, but that went away. I have the impression my long term memory is quick while my overall congition in the here and now is cluttered up somewhat. Went for a long walk and after a half mile or so I suddenly felt a change in how I sense my own hands. They felt more fluid in motion and with less tightness of skin and internal pressure. That has spread to some extent over my arms, legs, and feet. Sometime after the on-off headache began I noticed some calming and now I'm feeling pretty mellow despite everything that has happened to me today.
I could do without the headache and clutter, but the long term memory and the supple feeling of my body would be nice to hang on to.
Posted by DSCH on August 13, 2003, at 21:39:04
In reply to Follow up on the inositol, posted by DSCH on August 13, 2003, at 18:18:40
Dinner was spinach salad and chicken and it tasted good... onion in the salad in particular seems more pungent to me than it did before. The LT memory boost sensation didn't last for long, and I'm having perhaps a bit more difficulty concentrating than before dinner. I'm marvelling at the smoothness of the action in my joints. And I'm tired, it's been quite a day.
I've made up my mind and I'm not going to mess around with this as I have no idea what happened here. I'm going to get into contact with Pfeiffer TC because it was looking at their recommendation of inosital as a corrective for the "high-histamine" metabolic type that made me get it in the first place.
Good night!
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2003, at 9:11:28
In reply to Re: VITAMINS AND MINERALS » Larry Hoover, posted by freedom2001 on August 13, 2003, at 11:26:03
> > I checked out Grimaldi's site. Pretty comprehensive, really. She supplies too much zinc in her supplements, though. Potentially toxic, in a child.For a 66 lb. child, she recommends 14 capsules/day, at 10 mg zinc per capsule. Considering the body weight issue, that's way too much, IMHO.
> Nature's Farm pharmacy in Singapore told me that the upper limit for zinc is 100mg. Is that true?
It depends on how you define "upper limit". There are a number of terms that are used: tolerable daily intake (TDI); lowest observable adverse effects level (LOAEL); no observable adverse effects level (NOAEL); upper limit (UL, which actually has a strict definition).
I'd personally put the upper limit at 40 or 50 mg supplemental zinc (which presumes about 15 mg a day from dietary sources).
> So Niacinamide is actually a mild benzo. Kool.
Not literally, but that's a good analogy.
> But at what dose will it be effective? 5mg? 10mg? 50mg?
100-500 mg, up to 4 times a day (i.e. 2000 mg/day, upper limit).
> > Your body's reactions supercede my advice.
>
> I don't understand what you're trying to tell me here, larry.I give general advice. Your specific body is telling you how to take the supps. They're no good to you unless you find a way to tolerate them.
> > I'd advise adding in some antioxidants, other than vitamin C. These might be: vitamin E, 400-800 IU/day; selenium, 200 mcg/day; alpha-lipoic acid, 50-200 mg/day.
>
> Will these additional E, Selenium, alpha-lipoic acid help to reduce my OCD sufferings?In concert with the other supps (e.g. fish oil), that's a distinct possibility.
Fish oil contains highly unsaturated fatty acids. Of all the substances in your body, they are among the most vulnerable to oxidative stress. Oxidative stress increases when the body experiences any chronic stress. Taking antioxidants is kind of like making sure you change the oil in your car. It may not literally make it run better, but it will certainly run better over the longer term.
> What about Methione?
You probably get enough methionine in your diet. You could try TMG (trimethylglycine, also know as betaine). It will induce a liver enzyme that converts homocysteine (high in oxidative stress) to methionine. Your body will "take over" from there.
> Many thanks.
> Freedom2001.Many you're welcomes.
Lar
Posted by freedom2001 on August 14, 2003, at 10:22:11
In reply to Re: VITAMINS AND MINERALS » freedom2001, posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2003, at 9:11:28
>
> > > I checked out Grimaldi's site. Pretty comprehensive, really. She supplies too much zinc in her supplements, though. Potentially toxic, in a child.
>
> For a 66 lb. child, she recommends 14 capsules/day, at 10 mg zinc per capsule. Considering the body weight issue, that's way too much, IMHO.
>
> > Nature's Farm pharmacy in Singapore told me that the upper limit for zinc is 100mg. Is that true?
>
> It depends on how you define "upper limit". There are a number of terms that are used: tolerable daily intake (TDI); lowest observable adverse effects level (LOAEL); no observable adverse effects level (NOAEL); upper limit (UL, which actually has a strict definition).
>
> I'd personally put the upper limit at 40 or 50 mg supplemental zinc (which presumes about 15 mg a day from dietary sources).
>
> > So Niacinamide is actually a mild benzo. Kool.
>
> Not literally, but that's a good analogy.
>
> > But at what dose will it be effective? 5mg? 10mg? 50mg?
>
> 100-500 mg, up to 4 times a day (i.e. 2000 mg/day, upper limit).I'm taking only 50mg niacinamide as a supplement in addition to my 3 meals. Is that enough for OCD?
>
> > > Your body's reactions supercede my advice.
> >
> > I don't understand what you're trying to tell me here, larry.
>
> I give general advice. Your specific body is telling you how to take the supps. They're no good to you unless you find a way to tolerate them.
>
>
> > > I'd advise adding in some antioxidants, other than vitamin C. These might be: vitamin E, 400-800 IU/day; selenium, 200 mcg/day; alpha-lipoic acid, 50-200 mg/day.
> >
> > Will these additional E, Selenium, alpha-lipoic acid help to reduce my OCD sufferings?
>
> In concert with the other supps (e.g. fish oil), that's a distinct possibility.
>
> Fish oil contains highly unsaturated fatty acids. Of all the substances in your body, they are among the most vulnerable to oxidative stress. Oxidative stress increases when the body experiences any chronic stress. Taking antioxidants is kind of like making sure you change the oil in your car. It may not literally make it run better, but it will certainly run better over the longer term.
>
> > What about Methione?
>
> You probably get enough methionine in your diet. You could try TMG (trimethylglycine, also know as betaine). It will induce a liver enzyme that converts homocysteine (high in oxidative stress) to methionine. Your body will "take over" from there.I can't find any TMG in Nature's Farm. May have to try to find it at GNC...
>
> > Many thanks.
> > Freedom2001.
>
> Many you're welcomes.
>
> Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2003, at 12:02:10
In reply to Re: VITAMINS AND MINERALS » Larry Hoover, posted by freedom2001 on August 14, 2003, at 10:22:11
> > > So Niacinamide is actually a mild benzo. Kool.
> >
> > Not literally, but that's a good analogy.
> >
> > > But at what dose will it be effective? 5mg? 10mg? 50mg?
> >
> > 100-500 mg, up to 4 times a day (i.e. 2000 mg/day, upper limit).
>
> I'm taking only 50mg niacinamide as a supplement in addition to my 3 meals. Is that enough for OCD?I wouldn't think so. Try a significant dose on an empty stomach, and see how you react.
> I can't find any TMG in Nature's Farm. May have to try to find it at GNC...
I can give you internet sources, if you strike out closer to home.
Lar
Posted by Simcha on August 15, 2003, at 15:02:25
In reply to Re: VITAMINS AND MINERALS » freedom2001, posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2003, at 12:02:10
Larry,
I know I've reacted to your posts in an extreme way in the past. I'm sorry for that.
I'm trying to open my mind to all help. I'm sifting through so much. I need to make choices that work for me. Some of your supplement theory works for me. I need to let you know this. I don't know where you get your knowledge. It seems vast and impressive.
I want you to know that I appreciate your informative postings and that I do take supplements especially since I've become vegan. I had to change my diet due to compulsive overeating and other health issues like asthma. The supplements help me sleep better and keep my body balanced when my food regimine is not the best. So I want to thank you for your informative posts on nutrition and vitamin supplements. I read them and I get more information.
Thank You,
Simcha
> > > > So Niacinamide is actually a mild benzo. Kool.
> > >
> > > Not literally, but that's a good analogy.
> > >
> > > > But at what dose will it be effective? 5mg? 10mg? 50mg?
> > >
> > > 100-500 mg, up to 4 times a day (i.e. 2000 mg/day, upper limit).
> >
> > I'm taking only 50mg niacinamide as a supplement in addition to my 3 meals. Is that enough for OCD?
>
> I wouldn't think so. Try a significant dose on an empty stomach, and see how you react.
>
> > I can't find any TMG in Nature's Farm. May have to try to find it at GNC...
>
> I can give you internet sources, if you strike out closer to home.
>
> Lar
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2003, at 16:00:15
In reply to Re: VITAMINS AND MINERALS » Larry Hoover, posted by Simcha on August 15, 2003, at 15:02:25
> Larry,
>
> I know I've reacted to your posts in an extreme way in the past. I'm sorry for that.Honestly, I don't recall that. And, honestly, I'm proud of you for taking another look at it.
> I'm trying to open my mind to all help. I'm sifting through so much. I need to make choices that work for me. Some of your supplement theory works for me. I need to let you know this.
I'm glad you've found things that work for you.
> I don't know where you get your knowledge.
No one place. A little here, and a little there. I *had* to learn, because I couldn't find any other way towards wellness.
> It seems vast and impressive.
I'm a geek. What can I say.
> I want you to know that I appreciate your informative postings and that I do take supplements especially since I've become vegan. I had to change my diet due to compulsive overeating and other health issues like asthma. The supplements help me sleep better and keep my body balanced when my food regimine is not the best. So I want to thank you for your informative posts on nutrition and vitamin supplements. I read them and I get more information.
>
> Thank You,
> SimchaYou brought tears to my eyes. Thank you.
Lar
Posted by McPac on August 18, 2003, at 1:32:16
In reply to Re: VITAMINS AND MINERALS » Simcha, posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2003, at 16:00:15
Lar,
I was just reading some info. on George Eby's site (he's the guy who is a huge proponent of using magnesium in treating many illnesses, incl. mental illnesses). Anyway, he recommends ditching all calcium supplements and even greatly restricting calcium from the diet. He claims (from his site):
"Milk & Calcium Toxicity
The third dietary cause of inadequate intracellular magnesium is competition by calcium. This is one very obvious cause, particularly to people who have gone off their ridiculous calcium supplements and dairy products diet and gotten much better in just a day or two. To those people that refuse to eliminate calcium supplementation (perhaps due to previous advice from a physician), I offer my condolences and hope that you have a good long-term care insurance policy".
His recommendation to supplement with magnesium and DITCH the calcium supps AND also greatly limit calcium dietary intake---what are your thoughts on that? As always, your comments are very much appreciated Lar!
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 18, 2003, at 17:40:25
In reply to Larry, Re: VITAMINS AND MINERALS, posted by McPac on August 18, 2003, at 1:32:16
> Lar,
>
> I was just reading some info. on George Eby's site (he's the guy who is a huge proponent of using magnesium in treating many illnesses, incl. mental illnesses). Anyway, he recommends ditching all calcium supplements and even greatly restricting calcium from the diet. He claims (from his site):
> "Milk & Calcium Toxicity
> The third dietary cause of inadequate intracellular magnesium is competition by calcium. This is one very obvious cause, particularly to people who have gone off their ridiculous calcium supplements and dairy products diet and gotten much better in just a day or two. To those people that refuse to eliminate calcium supplementation (perhaps due to previous advice from a physician), I offer my condolences and hope that you have a good long-term care insurance policy".There will always be "statistical outliers", people who do not respond the way most other people do. To generalize from these extreme cases is not valid.
> His recommendation to supplement with magnesium and DITCH the calcium supps AND also greatly limit calcium dietary intake---what are your thoughts on that? As always, your comments are very much appreciated Lar!
The regulation of magnesium uptake depends, in part, on blood calcium concentrations. However, blood calcium concentration depends on many factors, such as parathyroid hormone, calciferol (vitamin D3), estrogen (even in men), and so on.
I think Eby's focus on calcium intake is misguided. Better for him to suggest vitamin D3 supps than to implicate dietary calcium.
Lar
Posted by freedom2001 on August 18, 2003, at 21:56:41
In reply to Re: Larry, Re: Calcium/magnesium » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on August 18, 2003, at 17:40:25
> > Lar,
> >
> > I was just reading some info. on George Eby's site (he's the guy who is a huge proponent of using magnesium in treating many illnesses, incl. mental illnesses). Anyway, he recommends ditching all calcium supplements and even greatly restricting calcium from the diet. He claims (from his site):
> > "Milk & Calcium Toxicity
> > The third dietary cause of inadequate intracellular magnesium is competition by calcium. This is one very obvious cause, particularly to people who have gone off their ridiculous calcium supplements and dairy products diet and gotten much better in just a day or two. To those people that refuse to eliminate calcium supplementation (perhaps due to previous advice from a physician), I offer my condolences and hope that you have a good long-term care insurance policy".
>
> There will always be "statistical outliers", people who do not respond the way most other people do. To generalize from these extreme cases is not valid.
>
> > His recommendation to supplement with magnesium and DITCH the calcium supps AND also greatly limit calcium dietary intake---what are your thoughts on that? As always, your comments are very much appreciated Lar!
>
> The regulation of magnesium uptake depends, in part, on blood calcium concentrations. However, blood calcium concentration depends on many factors, such as parathyroid hormone, calciferol (vitamin D3), estrogen (even in men), and so on.
>
> I think Eby's focus on calcium intake is misguided. Better for him to suggest vitamin D3 supps than to implicate dietary calcium.
>
> Lar
>As a footnote to the comments of Larry, I was completely free of OCD during my college years. I remembered I was on CALCIUM, vitamin D and vitamin C supplements at that time.
So I think taking out calcium won't work. Also, I read in an article that there is ACTUALLY a calcium deficiency in OCD according to a careful research. So how can calcium wreak havoc on OCD brains? I think George Eby's comments on calcium is based on an extremely rare case.
Regards,
freedom.
This is the end of the thread.
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