Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 250389

Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

Larry H., supplements for soft BP II

Posted by BobS. on August 12, 2003, at 19:57:27

Larry,
I enjoyed our exchange above (NY Times article) and have read your posts on supplements in the past. So I have a question for you.

After many years and much thought, I believe I have a mild case of bipolar II or atypical depression. Some pdocs believe they are the same.

Anyway, my experience with prozac and paxil for 8 years will forever prevent me from taking depakote, et al, so I take 1.5 mg to 2.0 mg Xanax per day. Xanax is a good medication, but it doesn't do the trick completely. So I go up and down.

What are your thoughts on supplements for BP II and/or atypical depression?

BTW, I'm 61 and recently had a massive lower GI bleed due to aspirin use which landed me in semi-intensive care. Aspirin for cholesterol at 325 mg qd on the advice of a doctor. I was also taking a CVS dose of fish oil each day. So I am a little leary of omega-3 and it's effect on platelets. I am looking for something to supplement the Xanax for the next 30 years..........

Thanks for your help.
BobS.

 

Re: Larry H., supplements for soft BP II » BobS.

Posted by Larry Hoover on August 13, 2003, at 8:13:20

In reply to Larry H., supplements for soft BP II, posted by BobS. on August 12, 2003, at 19:57:27

> Larry,
> I enjoyed our exchange above (NY Times article) and have read your posts on supplements in the past. So I have a question for you.

Question! <salivating>

> After many years and much thought, I believe I have a mild case of bipolar II or atypical depression. Some pdocs believe they are the same.

Frankly, I don't like rigid diagnostic structures, anyway. Using diagnoses can be useful as a sort of "mental shorthand" (it saves a lot of words), but it can also restrict thinking. I like blurry lines, and blends.

> Anyway, my experience with prozac and paxil for 8 years will forever prevent me from taking depakote, et al, so I take 1.5 mg to 2.0 mg Xanax per day.

How so?

> Xanax is a good medication, but it doesn't do the trick completely. So I go up and down.

Too short a half-life?

> What are your thoughts on supplements for BP II and/or atypical depression?

What I'd need to know is what troubles you. In other words, what symptoms do you find problematic?

> BTW, I'm 61 and recently had a massive lower GI bleed due to aspirin use which landed me in semi-intensive care. Aspirin for cholesterol at 325 mg qd on the advice of a doctor.

Aspirin for cholesterol? I'm sort of going, "Huh!?"

Aspirin is a great drug, in that we're finding that it has many benefits. However, if it was to be in development as a new drug today, it would never get past animal trials, or maybe Phase 1. The bleeding issue would scuttle it, period.

> I was also taking a CVS dose of fish oil each day. So I am a little leary of omega-3 and it's effect on platelets.

The anti-thrombotic effect of fish oil has been totally taken out of context, IMHO. I have done many, many hours of research, and I have corresponded with experts around the world, and I have come to the conclusion that the "blood-thinning" effects of fish oil are only seen in those people who have omega-3 deficiency (which, by coincidence, happens to be virtually everyone on the planet(exaggeration)). Anyway, your body will only reduce clotting to a healthy level; in other words, most people's blood is too thick (that's why occlusive strokes and coronary blockages are so common). Just do a search on the keyword "hypercoagulability", and you'll see what I mean. The only risk that comes with fish oil is when someone combines it with other blood thinners (which over-ride your body's regulatory controls, e.g. coumadin, or aspirin), and fails to inform his care-givers. Combinations of fish oil with blood thinners can be fatal, but that isn't the fish oil's fault.

The idea that fish oil can cause bleeding problems arises from a gross misinterpretation of evidence collected among Inuit in Greenland, IMHO. Their traditional diets include 12-20 grams per day (or more) of long-chain omega-3s. In that population (in which occlusive strokes and coronary infarct are unknown), the incidence of haemorrhagic stroke was higher than a matched population in Denmark. They blamed that on the fish oil (high correlation). Turns out the Inuit have a genetic defect that is inbred; their cerebral arteries have structural defects that weaken them. By the time they hit about 40 years of age, the arteries can burst, before other things can kill them. If you look at total stroke incidence, combining both occlusive and haemorrhagic strokes, the Inuit are far less likely to die of this than are the Danes. So, even just looking at haemorrhagic stroke doesn't reflect reality, quite apart from the genetic explanation.

Personally, I am not the least bit concerned about bleeding to death because of fish oil.

>I am looking for something to supplement the Xanax for the next 30 years..........

As a starter, try niacinamide. A dose of as little as 100 mg may be effective, but you can go up to 500 mg QID.

> Thanks for your help.
> BobS.

My pleasure.

Lar

 

Re: Larry H., supplements for soft BP II » BobS.

Posted by katia on August 13, 2003, at 14:15:31

In reply to Larry H., supplements for soft BP II, posted by BobS. on August 12, 2003, at 19:57:27

> Larry,
> I enjoyed our exchange above (NY Times article) and have read your posts on supplements in the past. So I have a question for you.
>
> After many years and much thought, I believe I have a mild case of bipolar II or atypical depression. Some pdocs believe they are the same.
>
> Anyway, my experience with prozac and paxil for 8 years will forever prevent me from taking depakote, et al, so I take 1.5 mg to 2.0 mg Xanax per day. Xanax is a good medication, but it doesn't do the trick completely. So I go up and down.
>
> What are your thoughts on supplements for BP II and/or atypical depression?
>
> BTW, I'm 61 and recently had a massive lower GI bleed due to aspirin use which landed me in semi-intensive care. Aspirin for cholesterol at 325 mg qd on the advice of a doctor. I was also taking a CVS dose of fish oil each day. So I am a little leary of omega-3 and it's effect on platelets. I am looking for something to supplement the Xanax for the next 30 years..........
>
> Thanks for your help.
> BobS.
Hi BobS,
Why can't you take Depakote?
Katia

 

For Katia and Larry

Posted by BobS. on August 13, 2003, at 19:39:59

In reply to Larry H., supplements for soft BP II, posted by BobS. on August 12, 2003, at 19:57:27

Katia,
A short answer to your question is that the only psychotropic medication I am not afraid of is a benzo. Therefore, I wouldn't touch depakote especially after the last 10 years of try this try that. I am afraid of it and most other drugs.

Larry,
I have had a number of diagnoses over the years ranging from panic disorder to "soft" BP II. Current pdoc is a psycho pharmacologist only. He is very good but very unconcerned about prescribing high doses of this or that. Fortunately, he is not afraid of the benzophobes and that's why I take Xanax. Half life notwithstanding, it works.

My symptoms are primarily anxiety; symptoms go up and down in severity. The anxiety, or anxiety like symptoms, was worse when I was required to take a SSRI by my earlier doctors, which is the reason I don't like SSRIs. I can go for months feeling quite normal, then the anxiety picks up, and I get down and unhappy. I can spend weeks in this condition and then return to "normal." I have read about anxious depression, hypomania and irritability, BP II atypical depression (I have rejection sensitivity)but not "leaden paralysis" whatever the hell that is.

I would like to find out if I am bipolar, primarily for the sake of my children. However, I am not about to take lithium or depakote to find out. So until the genetic testing is available, I want to try supplementation to see if it levels me out. This would help me and confirm my suspicion. Also, I would be prepared to take action on the behalf of my children, now when they are young. I assume, of course, that a course of action can be taken. Supplements would be one course.

Where would one obtain niacinamide from a reliable source? Does it thin blood??

BTW, the aspirin was for blood thinning due to high cholesterol and it really worked in my case. I lost 30% of my blood within an hour. They assume, because it could not be confirmed, that I had a bleeding diverticula.
Regards,
BobS.

 

Re: For Katia and Larry

Posted by katia on August 13, 2003, at 22:18:23

In reply to For Katia and Larry, posted by BobS. on August 13, 2003, at 19:39:59

> Katia,
> A short answer to your question is that the only psychotropic medication I am not afraid of is a benzo. Therefore, I wouldn't touch depakote especially after the last 10 years of try this try that. I am afraid of it and most other drugs.
>
Hi BobS,
the reason I was wondering is because you specifically targeted Depakote as something you wouldn't try. I just started on Dep. five days ago so I'm a bit nervous about it all as well. I too have taken numerous ADs with negative experiences.
But so far I think so good. a bit of nauseousness and some insomnia, both of which will even out hopefully soon!
katia

 

Re: For Katia and Larry » BobS.

Posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2003, at 7:03:11

In reply to For Katia and Larry, posted by BobS. on August 13, 2003, at 19:39:59

Sorry, Bob, for the delay in replying. Kids are a demanding responsibility.

> Katia,
> A short answer to your question is that the only psychotropic medication I am not afraid of is a benzo. Therefore, I wouldn't touch depakote especially after the last 10 years of try this try that. I am afraid of it and most other drugs.

Given your intuitive "diagnosis" that you're leaning towards a bipolar spectrum pattern, wouldn't mood stabilization be a desired outcome? What about lithium?

> Larry,
> I have had a number of diagnoses over the years ranging from panic disorder to "soft" BP II. Current pdoc is a psycho pharmacologist only. He is very good but very unconcerned about prescribing high doses of this or that. Fortunately, he is not afraid of the benzophobes and that's why I take Xanax. Half life notwithstanding, it works.

"afraid of the benzophobes".... That's an interesting phrase.

Rhetorical question:
Once you recognize that you tolerate benzos, and have a doc who'll prescribe them, it seems reasonable to try different ones, doesn't it? You still experience "anxiety breakthrough" episodes.

> My symptoms are primarily anxiety; symptoms go up and down in severity. The anxiety, or anxiety like symptoms, was worse when I was required to take a SSRI by my earlier doctors, which is the reason I don't like SSRIs. I can go for months feeling quite normal, then the anxiety picks up, and I get down and unhappy. I can spend weeks in this condition and then return to "normal." I have read about anxious depression, hypomania and irritability, BP II atypical depression (I have rejection sensitivity)but not "leaden paralysis" whatever the hell that is.

Extreme lethargy, would be my definition.

> I would like to find out if I am bipolar, primarily for the sake of my children.

How old are your children? My intuition makes me wonder if there are loved ones around you who do not accept your mental health issues. Or, are your simply trying to learn enought that you can help your children do all they can to avoid some of the struggles you've faced?

> However, I am not about to take lithium or depakote to find out.

McPac has been posting about how useful a sub-clinical dose of lithium is, and others have responded in support of that dosing strategy. Just a thought.

> So until the genetic testing is available, I want to try supplementation to see if it levels me out.

IMHO, it will be decades before we will see any sort of "individual genes --> specific treatment" sort of mental health care.

> This would help me and confirm my suspicion.

I'll come back to the supplements, below.

> Also, I would be prepared to take action on the behalf of my children, now when they are young.

OK, you answered my question.

About genetic pedispositions, in general.... I like the diathesis/stressor model of mental illness. From twin studies, we know that even identical twins do not have 100% concordance in mental illness. Depending on the particular disorder, despite having exactly the same genes, a twin may have a 30-70% chance of having the same disorder as her afflicted twin. All genes interact with the environment. It takes something in the environment (which we collectively term stressors) to push the individual into mental illness. The genes are the diathesis, the genetic tendency. The environment provides stressors, external forces acting on the genes. Mental illness is the result of an interaction between the two.

We can't do anything about the genes. We can do something about the stressors.

One of the most important things you can offer your children is a knowledge of what you've been through. Given your age, I know that you grew up in a social climate that put a huge stigma on mental illness. Mental illness was often seen as a character flaw. It was hidden. It was denied.

Without consciously deciding to do so, it is inevitable that you internalized some of that social message. Somehow, you just weren't trying hard enough. That's a stressor, in itself. From your genes' perpsective, your cognitive processes can be stressors. Being at peace with your mental state, "It is. I am.", accepting it for what it is, can reduce that cognitive stressor.

> I assume, of course, that a course of action can be taken. Supplements would be one course.

Absolutely. And, the way I look at supplements, they're a "free shot" at becoming healthier. Used with a little common sense, you can't hurt yourself. You can only feel better. (I know. There can be side-effects. I'm generalizing.)

I don't mean to harp on the age thing, but as you get older, malnutrition becomes more and more likely. Declines in absorption capacity are probably a major factor there, but aging has its own demands on metabolism. Higher nutrient demand, and lower access to nutrients.

My recommendations would be very broad.

B-50 three times a day, plus extra folate and B-12.
Vitamin C, 2000 mg/day.
Zinc 30-40 mg/day. Selenium 200 mcg/day. Or, better still, a multi-mineral with extra zinc and selenium to hit those thresholds.
Calcium/magnesium supp. Dose, I don't know, off the top of my head (I'm rushing this bit, sorry). Magnesium supps may, in particular, reduce the tendency to over-react to the environment.
Antioxidants (oxidation processes lie at the heart of what we call aging, and may contribute to chronic anxiety): vitamin E 400-1200 IU/day; alpha-lipoic acid 50-200 mg/day.
Because you mentioned anxiety, I would recommend soya lecithin granules, 2 teaspoons per day, plus phosphatidylserine 100-200 mg/day (lecithin contains three of the four essential phospholipids, but they have to synthesize the latter one). And niacinamide.
Siberian ginseng may also help you become less reactive to the environment.

> Where would one obtain niacinamide from a reliable source? Does it thin blood??

Mail-order? Try i-herb (or is it iherb?). Google them. Great prices. I don't know of any effect on the blood clotting parameters.

> BTW, the aspirin was for blood thinning due to high cholesterol and it really worked in my case. I lost 30% of my blood within an hour.

I like your sense of humour. BTW, fish oil alone would address both issues. Despite my highly carnivorous diet, my triglycerides and cholesterol are excellent. Since starting my fish/fish oil regimen (I eat a lot of fish, and use fish oil), my total cholesterol and triglycerides declined 20%, and the ratio between HDL/LDL shifted from high-risk to low-risk. My blood pressure dropped by 12 points systolic and 15 points diastolic. And I haven't bled to death yet. <wink>

>They assume, because it could not be confirmed, that I had a bleeding diverticula.

Did your doctor know you had diverticulosis? Did he do an occult blood test before recommending aspirin?

> Regards,
> BobS.

Take care.

Lar

P.S. I love questions (even though I'm really busy with my kids right now).

 

Re: For Katia and Larry

Posted by BobS. on August 17, 2003, at 20:23:15

In reply to Re: For Katia and Larry » BobS., posted by Larry Hoover on August 15, 2003, at 7:03:11

> Sorry, Bob, for the delay in replying. Kids are a demanding responsibility.
>
But fun, I go empty nest in two weeks. Yup, didn't start a family until I was 40. How old are your kids?? Enjoy them, no matter how demanding.

> Given your intuitive "diagnosis" that you're leaning towards a bipolar spectrum pattern, wouldn't mood stabilization be a desired outcome? What about lithium?

Afraid, even at a sub-clinical level. My eight year struggle with SSRIs precludes any experimentation with "big gun" drugs.

> > Larry,
> > I have had a number of diagnoses over the years ranging from panic disorder to "soft" BP II. Current pdoc is a psycho pharmacologist only. He is very good but very unconcerned about prescribing high doses of this or that. Fortunately, he is not afraid of the benzophobes and that's why I take Xanax. Half life notwithstanding, it works.
>
> "afraid of the benzophobes".... That's an interesting phrase.

The pdoc believes in the value of benzos and believes that the anti-benzo crowd are a form of religious zealots...

> Rhetorical question:
> Once you recognize that you tolerate benzos, and have a doc who'll prescribe them, it seems reasonable to try different ones, doesn't it? You still experience "anxiety breakthrough" episodes.

He thinks Xanax is better than Klonopin even with the half life issue. Next visit we go to Xanax XR.

> > My symptoms are primarily anxiety; symptoms go up and down in severity. The anxiety, or anxiety like symptoms, was worse when I was required to take a SSRI by my earlier doctors, which is the reason I don't like SSRIs. I can go for months feeling quite normal, then the anxiety picks up, and I get down and unhappy. I can spend weeks in this condition and then return to "normal." I have read about anxious depression, hypomania and irritability, BP II atypical depression (I have rejection sensitivity)but not "leaden paralysis" whatever the hell that is.
>
> Extreme lethargy, would be my definition.

Then why not say that. There's something wrong with the DSM IV...

> > I would like to find out if I am bipolar, primarily for the sake of my children.
>
> How old are your children? My intuition makes me wonder if there are loved ones around you who do not accept your mental health issues. Or, are your simply trying to learn enought that you can help your children do all they can to avoid some of the struggles you've faced?

It's the latter. 20 and 18. The younger has social phobia (mild, but somewhat troublesome). I had him in CBT 3 years ago and now he seems to be on all fours. Has a girl friend is looking forward to college. He takes .25 Xanax prn. The older one is a little spacey, which I attribute to mild anxiety, but he's doing ok. If bi-polar is an issue, I want to cut it off at the pass so to speak.


> > However, I am not about to take lithium or depakote to find out.
>
> McPac has been posting about how useful a sub-clinical dose of lithium is, and others have responded in support of that dosing strategy. Just a thought.
>
> > So until the genetic testing is available, I want to try supplementation to see if it levels me out.
>
> IMHO, it will be decades before we will see any sort of "individual genes --> specific treatment" sort of mental health care.
>
> > This would help me and confirm my suspicion.
>
> I'll come back to the supplements, below.
>
> > Also, I would be prepared to take action on the behalf of my children, now when they are young.
>
> OK, you answered my question.

Young in a relative sense, 18 and 20 as I mentioned above. They know about anxiety, since they each have seen the same pdoc as me.

> About genetic pedispositions, in general.... I like the diathesis/stressor model of mental illness. From twin studies, we know that even identical twins do not have 100% concordance in mental illness. Depending on the particular disorder, despite having exactly the same genes, a twin may have a 30-70% chance of having the same disorder as her afflicted twin. All genes interact with the environment. It takes something in the environment (which we collectively term stressors) to push the individual into mental illness. The genes are the diathesis, the genetic tendency. The environment provides stressors, external forces acting on the genes. Mental illness is the result of an interaction between the two.
>
> We can't do anything about the genes. We can do something about the stressors.
>
> One of the most important things you can offer your children is a knowledge of what you've been through. Given your age, I know that you grew up in a social climate that put a huge stigma on mental illness. Mental illness was often seen as a character flaw. It was hidden. It was denied.
>

Actually, I did quite well, anxiety notwithstanding, until I was 52. I had 7 years of individual and group therapy when it was still paid for and it helped me very much. The last nine years have been a bitch. All starting with a lot of stress (layoffs, restructuring, etc), and jumping from one med to another prescribed by GPs and benzophobe pdocs. TCA, for one week, Prozac, Buspar, Xanax, withdraw from Xanax to avoid addiction. Go back on Valium. And so forth. Paxil was the worst.

> Without consciously deciding to do so, it is inevitable that you internalized some of that social message. Somehow, you just weren't trying hard enough. That's a stressor, in itself. From your genes' perpsective, your cognitive processes can be stressors. Being at peace with your mental state, "It is. I am.", accepting it for what it is, can reduce that cognitive stressor.
>

The stressor for me is wondering about bi-polar and whether the meds listed above triggered it.

> > I assume, of course, that a course of action can be taken. Supplements would be one course.
>
> Absolutely. And, the way I look at supplements, they're a "free shot" at becoming healthier. Used with a little common sense, you can't hurt yourself. You can only feel better. (I know. There can be side-effects. I'm generalizing.)
>
> I don't mean to harp on the age thing, but as you get older, malnutrition becomes more and more likely. Declines in absorption capacity are probably a major factor there, but aging has its own demands on metabolism. Higher nutrient demand, and lower access to nutrients.
>
> My recommendations would be very broad.
>
> B-50 three times a day, plus extra folate and B-12.
> Vitamin C, 2000 mg/day.
> Zinc 30-40 mg/day. Selenium 200 mcg/day. Or, better still, a multi-mineral with extra zinc and selenium to hit those thresholds.
> Calcium/magnesium supp. Dose, I don't know, off the top of my head (I'm rushing this bit, sorry). Magnesium supps may, in particular, reduce the tendency to over-react to the environment.
> Antioxidants (oxidation processes lie at the heart of what we call aging, and may contribute to chronic anxiety): vitamin E 400-1200 IU/day; alpha-lipoic acid 50-200 mg/day.
> Because you mentioned anxiety, I would recommend soya lecithin granules, 2 teaspoons per day, plus phosphatidylserine 100-200 mg/day (lecithin contains three of the four essential phospholipids, but they have to synthesize the latter one). And niacinamide.
> Siberian ginseng may also help you become less reactive to the environment.
>
> > Where would one obtain niacinamide from a reliable source? Does it thin blood??
>
> Mail-order? Try i-herb (or is it iherb?). Google them. Great prices. I don't know of any effect on the blood clotting parameters.
>
> > BTW, the aspirin was for blood thinning due to high cholesterol and it really worked in my case. I lost 30% of my blood within an hour.
>
> I like your sense of humour. BTW, fish oil alone would address both issues. Despite my highly carnivorous diet, my triglycerides and cholesterol are excellent. Since starting my fish/fish oil regimen (I eat a lot of fish, and use fish oil), my total cholesterol and triglycerides declined 20%, and the ratio between HDL/LDL shifted from high-risk to low-risk. My blood pressure dropped by 12 points systolic and 15 points diastolic. And I haven't bled to death yet. <wink>
>
> >They assume, because it could not be confirmed, that I had a bleeding diverticula.
>
> Did your doctor know you had diverticulosis? Did he do an occult blood test before recommending aspirin?

Yes. Plus a colonoscopy at 51 and 56. I'm in good question. For 61 I am in excellent physical condition. I have been jogging for 30 years, BP is 110/70. Resting heart rate of 55. Other than diverticula, I do not have any medical conditions, except cholesterol and sine wave anxiety. I have had an "ultra fast" cat scan of the heart and a full blown stress test. Both were normal. I think docs push statins just like SSRIs. Remember the NY Times article.

I am going back on the omega-3. Just ordered some from the aerobic guru, Kenneth Cooper's website. And will try niacinamide as you recommend.

Thanks for all your help and keep us "posted" pun intended.
Regards,
BobS.


> Take care.
>
> Lar
>
> P.S. I love questions (even though I'm really busy with my kids right now).

 

Re: For Katia and Larry » BobS.

Posted by Larry Hoover on August 18, 2003, at 18:02:59

In reply to Re: For Katia and Larry, posted by BobS. on August 17, 2003, at 20:23:15

> > Sorry, Bob, for the delay in replying. Kids are a demanding responsibility.
> >
> But fun, I go empty nest in two weeks. Yup, didn't start a family until I was 40. How old are your kids?? Enjoy them, no matter how demanding.

My boys are 11 and 9. The elder one is just hitting puberty, and is just beginning therapy (family and individual) for depression. He's got my genes.

I wouldn't trade my kids for anything.

> > Given your intuitive "diagnosis" that you're leaning towards a bipolar spectrum pattern, wouldn't mood stabilization be a desired outcome? What about lithium?
>
> Afraid, even at a sub-clinical level. My eight year struggle with SSRIs precludes any experimentation with "big gun" drugs.

I don't know if lithium would qualify for that sort of label. I'm not trying to talk you out of your position.

> > > Larry,
> > > I have had a number of diagnoses over the years ranging from panic disorder to "soft" BP II. Current pdoc is a psycho pharmacologist only. He is very good but very unconcerned about prescribing high doses of this or that. Fortunately, he is not afraid of the benzophobes and that's why I take Xanax. Half life notwithstanding, it works.
> >
> > "afraid of the benzophobes".... That's an interesting phrase.
>
> The pdoc believes in the value of benzos and believes that the anti-benzo crowd are a form of religious zealots...

I'm glad you have this guy on your side. I simply cannot understand the benzophobic trend I'm seeing.

> > Rhetorical question:
> > Once you recognize that you tolerate benzos, and have a doc who'll prescribe them, it seems reasonable to try different ones, doesn't it? You still experience "anxiety breakthrough" episodes.
>
> He thinks Xanax is better than Klonopin even with the half life issue. Next visit we go to Xanax XR.

Cool.

> > > My symptoms are primarily anxiety; symptoms go up and down in severity. The anxiety, or anxiety like symptoms, was worse when I was required to take a SSRI by my earlier doctors, which is the reason I don't like SSRIs. I can go for months feeling quite normal, then the anxiety picks up, and I get down and unhappy. I can spend weeks in this condition and then return to "normal." I have read about anxious depression, hypomania and irritability, BP II atypical depression (I have rejection sensitivity)but not "leaden paralysis" whatever the hell that is.
> >
> > Extreme lethargy, would be my definition.
>
> Then why not say that. There's something wrong with the DSM IV...

I certainly agree with you on that. Don't get me started.....

> > > I would like to find out if I am bipolar, primarily for the sake of my children.
> >
> > How old are your children? My intuition makes me wonder if there are loved ones around you who do not accept your mental health issues. Or, are your simply trying to learn enought that you can help your children do all they can to avoid some of the struggles you've faced?
>
> It's the latter. 20 and 18. The younger has social phobia (mild, but somewhat troublesome). I had him in CBT 3 years ago and now he seems to be on all fours. Has a girl friend is looking forward to college. He takes .25 Xanax prn. The older one is a little spacey, which I attribute to mild anxiety, but he's doing ok. If bi-polar is an issue, I want to cut it off at the pass so to speak.

Just talking about it is the major thing, helping them develop a sort of pseudo-objectivity about how they are handling things.....self-assessment tools, coping strategies, that sort of thing. And, hammering home the impact of the horrid "North American Diet": carb overload, nutrient loss during processing, fatty acid imbalances... I really believe that diet is the predominant precipitating factor for the increase in the prevalence of all sorts of mental illness. Anyway, that's how I'm approaching things with my boys.

> > > Also, I would be prepared to take action on the behalf of my children, now when they are young.
> >
> > OK, you answered my question.
>
> Young in a relative sense, 18 and 20 as I mentioned above. They know about anxiety, since they each have seen the same pdoc as me.

You mentioned CBT, earlier. Is that ongoing, too?

> > One of the most important things you can offer your children is a knowledge of what you've been through. Given your age, I know that you grew up in a social climate that put a huge stigma on mental illness. Mental illness was often seen as a character flaw. It was hidden. It was denied.
> >
>
> Actually, I did quite well, anxiety notwithstanding, until I was 52.

Please forgive the assumptions I made.....It's hard not to assume (and to project) when one is forced to dialogue via a message board.

> I had 7 years of individual and group therapy when it was still paid for and it helped me very much. The last nine years have been a bitch. All starting with a lot of stress (layoffs, restructuring, etc), and jumping from one med to another prescribed by GPs and benzophobe pdocs. TCA, for one week, Prozac, Buspar, Xanax, withdraw from Xanax to avoid addiction. Go back on Valium. And so forth. Paxil was the worst.

I don't tolerate meds, and I've tried a lot of them over the years. Many were worse than the symptoms for which I sought treatment. So, on to alternatives....

> > Without consciously deciding to do so, it is inevitable that you internalized some of that social message. Somehow, you just weren't trying hard enough. That's a stressor, in itself. From your genes' perpsective, your cognitive processes can be stressors. Being at peace with your mental state, "It is. I am.", accepting it for what it is, can reduce that cognitive stressor.
> >
>
> The stressor for me is wondering about bi-polar and whether the meds listed above triggered it.

First, that's unknowable. You'll never answer that with certainty (whether the meds did it). With respect to bipolar, and the children, your own family tree may be more informative than trying to extrapolate from your own symptoms. Do you have a family medical history to consider?

Finally, does it matter much what you call it? Symptom management doesn't require a firm diagnosis.

> > Did your doctor know you had diverticulosis? Did he do an occult blood test before recommending aspirin?
>
> Yes. Plus a colonoscopy at 51 and 56. I'm in good question. For 61 I am in excellent physical condition. I have been jogging for 30 years, BP is 110/70.

Wow!

>Resting heart rate of 55.

Maybe you just ought to take it easy? <wink>

> Other than diverticula, I do not have any medical conditions, except cholesterol and sine wave anxiety. I have had an "ultra fast" cat scan of the heart and a full blown stress test. Both were normal. I think docs push statins just like SSRIs. Remember the NY Times article.

I would avoid statins. Too many uncertainties, and there are other things you can do.

> I am going back on the omega-3. Just ordered some from the aerobic guru, Kenneth Cooper's website. And will try niacinamide as you recommend.

I find that the niacinamide can make me feel tired, so I've started taking it at bedtime. That may be an idiosyncratic reaction.

> Thanks for all your help and keep us "posted" pun intended.
> Regards,
> BobS.

Glad to chat with you.

Lar

 

Re: For Katia and Larry » Larry Hoover

Posted by katia on August 18, 2003, at 18:20:34

In reply to Re: For Katia and Larry » BobS., posted by Larry Hoover on August 18, 2003, at 18:02:59

Hi larry,
Were you the one (between you and Bob) to say
"I don't tolerate meds, and I've tried a lot of them over the years. Many were worse than the symptoms for which I sought treatment. So, on to alternatives...." ?

I'm wondering if I tolerate meds too. Have you tried the gamut of them? And you're finding to better off without?
that's interesting.
I'd love to hear more about that if you want. And what alternatives are you using? (I've tried St. John's Wort and 5HTP on my own before giving in to ADs which didn't work for me and now onto mood stabilizers).
thanks.
Katia

 

Re: For Katia and Larry » katia

Posted by Larry Hoover on August 18, 2003, at 18:53:45

In reply to Re: For Katia and Larry » Larry Hoover, posted by katia on August 18, 2003, at 18:20:34

> Hi larry,
> Were you the one (between you and Bob) to say
> "I don't tolerate meds, and I've tried a lot of them over the years. Many were worse than the symptoms for which I sought treatment. So, on to alternatives...." ?

Ya, that was me.

> I'm wondering if I tolerate meds too. Have you tried the gamut of them?

Well, off the top of my head, there was the tricyclic Elavil, Prozac, Paxil, Luvox, lithium, trazodone (three trials), Serzone, Effexor, Remeron, Manerix, numerous benzos, Ultram, perhaps others.

Because of meds, I've gone completely manic, had a psychotic break, become totally obsessed with suicide (I couldn't look at the world without seeing each object as a means to my end), and more....those were the psych side-effects. I don't even want to think about the physical ones.

>And you're finding to better off without?

At the present time. There is no way to know if I am in remission because of anything I have done or not done, unfortunately, as depression is characterized as a remitting disorder. Still, I'd like to think that my present remission is due to my self-care.

> that's interesting.
> I'd love to hear more about that if you want.

Sure.

>And what alternatives are you using?

By and large, megavitamin therapy. Over the past few years, I've gone from believing that a "One-A-Day" tablet would meet all my needs, to recognizing that I was probably failing to absorb nutrients effectively (genetic, or possibly something like undiagnosed celiac), to learning about nutrients and RDAs and Upper Limits and all that, to symptom management via nutrients. Either it's a huge coincidence, or my symptoms have remitted because my nutrient intake has increased.

I'm not "totally well" better, but I'm better than I've been in years. Mood stable, cognitive function decent (or better), memory acceptable and still improving, relatively stress resistant, physically resilient. A lot of the "old me", a guy I thought I'd lost forever, is back.

>(I've tried St. John's Wort and 5HTP on my own before giving in to ADs which didn't work for me and now onto mood stabilizers).
> thanks.
> Katia

St. John's wort is the only antidepressant to ever really work for me, and it did so without any tangible side effects. Unfortunately, I stopped using it when I thought I was better (and before I started the nutrients). I have not had a similar response to it in later trials, but that may be due to the batch-to-batch inconsistency of herbal products.

Feel free to toss some questions my way.

Lar

 

Larry said it and I have a similar history (nm)

Posted by BobS. on August 18, 2003, at 19:04:48

In reply to Re: For Katia and Larry » Larry Hoover, posted by katia on August 18, 2003, at 18:20:34

 

Larry - Re:CBT

Posted by BobS. on August 18, 2003, at 19:13:06

In reply to Re: For Katia and Larry » Larry Hoover, posted by katia on August 18, 2003, at 18:20:34

I had my son do the CBT when he was younger, he is not in CBT now, just the Xanax prn. In our case, the one round of CBT seems sufficient.

Heimberg, out of Philadephia, is well known for CBT but works with adults only. I was fortunate to get my son into a clinical trial in Phila. with associates of Heimberg. Look for someone using Heimberg techniques, if you are considering CBT
Bob

 

Re: For Katia and Larry » Larry Hoover

Posted by katia on August 19, 2003, at 14:37:24

In reply to Re: For Katia and Larry » katia, posted by Larry Hoover on August 18, 2003, at 18:53:45

Hi larry,
You mentioned aborption in vitamin intake. How do you deal with this? Have you changed your diet?
What has your dx been? I noticed the only mood stabilizer you tried was lithium. Is that correct? Did you not try others - why?
When you went manic - I assume it was a reaction to ADs? When you went psychotic too?
Katia

 

Re: For Katia » katia

Posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2003, at 20:20:24

In reply to Re: For Katia and Larry » Larry Hoover, posted by katia on August 19, 2003, at 14:37:24

> Hi larry,
> You mentioned aborption in vitamin intake. How do you deal with this? Have you changed your diet?

Some of the supplements I take are "targetted" directly at nourishing a stressed digestive tract. B-12, for example, and TMG, and bromelain. I also avoid milk (but not all dairy, so far). I'm about to undertake an exclusion diet, that will limit all gluten, gliaden (another possible irritant found in some grains), and dairy. I think I may have a milder form of celiac sprue.

Long before I came to focus on these latter intestinal irritants, I hypothesized that I had a "subclinical malabsorption disorder", but being subclinical, it was all the more difficult to determine the triggering foods, or whatever was really going on. I'm still working out the details, seven years on.

> What has your dx been?

First, recurrent, treatment-resistant major depression. Then, dysthymia with recurrent major depression. I also have chronic and acute PTSD, IBS, and chronic fatigue syndrome.

> I noticed the only mood stabilizer you tried was lithium. Is that correct?

Yes. It made me totally apathetic. I had no emotions whatsoever, and I could not finish a sentence I started, my memory was so poor. I'd simply forget what I was talking about. I couldn't spell, had trouble writing.....It was horrid, and I became very suicidal.

> Did you not try others - why?

I'm not bipolar? I dunno.

> When you went manic - I assume it was a reaction to ADs?

Without question, it was a response to SSRI meds.

> When you went psychotic too?

Yes, also due to SSRI meds.

> Katia

My family is full of bipolars, but I have not had the experience of mania myself, save that induced by medication. I used to think that I was bipolar II, but upon close observation/consultation with a couple of pdocs, I now see that what I might have mistaken for hypomania was really nothing more than euthymia. From my "normal" dysthymic perspective, losing the dysthymia temporarily seemed like hypomania.

Here's how I describe it. If mood could be rated on a scale of -5 (totally depressed) to +5 (totally manic), my set point is not 0 (euthymia). It's really around -1. Superimposed on that, I get major depressive episodes (all the way to -5), and occasional excursions up to maybe 0 or even + 0.5. Some doctors call what I have "double depression", major depression over top of dysthymia.

Lar

 

Re: Larry - Re:CBT » BobS.

Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 7:57:02

In reply to Larry - Re:CBT, posted by BobS. on August 18, 2003, at 19:13:06

> I had my son do the CBT when he was younger, he is not in CBT now, just the Xanax prn. In our case, the one round of CBT seems sufficient.

Getting CBT as a younger person, it may well serve him for life.

> Heimberg, out of Philadephia, is well known for CBT but works with adults only. I was fortunate to get my son into a clinical trial in Phila. with associates of Heimberg. Look for someone using Heimberg techniques, if you are considering CBT
> Bob

I've had good results with CBT, but I have no idea what sort if might have been. They didn't mention anybody's name, anyway.

Thanks.

Lar

 

Re: For Katia » Larry Hoover

Posted by tealady on August 22, 2003, at 18:14:21

In reply to Re: For Katia » katia, posted by Larry Hoover on August 19, 2003, at 20:20:24

>Yes. It made me totally apathetic. I had no emotions whatsoever, and I could not finish a sentence I started, my memory was so poor. I'd simply forget what I was talking about. I couldn't spell, had trouble writing.....It was horrid, and I became very suicidal

I haven't tried Lithium myself...but those symptoms are similar to the ones I have when I consider my problem is too hypo..as in hypothyroid. Of course, everything is linked and it is more than thyroid going on.
The suicide thoughts for me, I believe are no problem ..as I feel like that at the same time that I am completely wiped out, and can only lie,(anyone know why the foetal position feels so comforting during these times?) and drift in and out of some kind of semi-conscious sleep(feels like that) everything is too much of an effort..even lifting a finger, and to commit a suicide means you have to be able to finish a thought, think things thru and remember them ..then act them out..all pretty much impossible.
Unfortunately the finishing the sentence, finding the word you want to say, and spelling etc. ...some of the things I am still sruggling with...all typical "hypothyroid" symptoms according to the hundreds on forums.
It is perhaps a coincidence, but a significant percentage of folks from the US on the hypo board have been on lithium and were labelled bipolar...
I know, no conclusons here..but I think there is some link
My brother about 5 years ago also had similar symptoms..but he had an excellent physiciatrist and was treated successfully with high doses of a mix of pdrugs..now he is functioning, and slowly withdrawing form the frugs..while I am still struggling. Of course, we are all individual.
Jan

 

Re: For jan » tealady

Posted by Larry Hoover on August 23, 2003, at 7:10:00

In reply to Re: For Katia » Larry Hoover, posted by tealady on August 22, 2003, at 18:14:21

> >Yes. It made me totally apathetic. I had no emotions whatsoever, and I could not finish a sentence I started, my memory was so poor. I'd simply forget what I was talking about. I couldn't spell, had trouble writing.....It was horrid, and I became very suicidal
>
> I haven't tried Lithium myself...but those symptoms are similar to the ones I have when I consider my problem is too hypo..as in hypothyroid. Of course, everything is linked and it is more than thyroid going on.

That's very thought-provoking. I appreciate your insight. Long-term lithium use is associated with complete thyroid failure, so it really ought not to be any surprise that acute treatment might have similar effects in susceptible individuals.

> The suicide thoughts for me, I believe are no problem ..as I feel like that at the same time that I am completely wiped out, and can only lie,(anyone know why the foetal position feels so comforting during these times?) and drift in and out of some kind of semi-conscious sleep(feels like that) everything is too much of an effort..even lifting a finger, and to commit a suicide means you have to be able to finish a thought, think things thru and remember them ..then act them out..all pretty much impossible.

I wasn't physically inactivated, as you describe. I've certainly been there, too. What came to me, during that period of absolute apathy, was that if this was to be my fate, life would be a total and absolute torture, something akin to purgatory (I'm not sure that's an appropriate comparison (I'm not really religious), but that's what came to mind).

> Unfortunately the finishing the sentence, finding the word you want to say, and spelling etc. ...some of the things I am still sruggling with...all typical "hypothyroid" symptoms according to the hundreds on forums.

I've only considered the physical manifestations of hypo. I don't know why I didn't grasp the psych ones before.

I did a trial of T4 augmentation, but that was a disaster. My pdoc prescribed 10 mcg/day, but it doesn't even come in that small a dose. The pharmacist thought it was a decimal error, and supplied 100 mcg tablets. I didn't check the pill bottle (the first, and only time that's ever happened), and I took them for a couple weeks before I got *so* wired.

> It is perhaps a coincidence, but a significant percentage of folks from the US on the hypo board have been on lithium and were labelled bipolar...

Lithium destroys some peoples' kidneys and thyroid glands. Everything has pros and cons, but some are not predictable.

> I know, no conclusons here..but I think there is some link

It's a proven link.

> My brother about 5 years ago also had similar symptoms..but he had an excellent physiciatrist and was treated successfully with high doses of a mix of pdrugs..now he is functioning, and slowly withdrawing form the frugs..while I am still struggling. Of course, we are all individual.
> Jan

You strike me as being very aware of how your body is. I think you have what it takes to help yourself find better health. It's just figuring out how that needs doing.

Lar


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