![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 28, 2003, at 9:59:53
In reply to Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 23:18:25
> TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, I suppose it may be a LOT cheaper to just increase the TMG instead of me buying and taking SAM-e....but it seems that a lot of times when you try taking a precursor (i.e. the TMG) instead of the actual 'target' agent (SAM-e) that it doesn't work as well...that something gets 'lost' in the intended conversion process or just doesn't happen as well as it's supposed to.....taking actual SAM-e appears to have a much better effect on me than taking TMG.....Yes, you will certainly over-ride your body's natural limits if you ingest products rather than precursors. If SAMe works better for you, fine. I'm just suggesting alternatives.
>is this the correct 'flowchart' by the way---TMG>methionine>Sam-e? (taking the SAM-e appears more effective TO ME than what the TMG & methionine were doing).
TMG + homocysteine --> DMG + methionine
methionine + adenosine --> S-adenosyl methionine
DMG is dimethylglycine. Where you see the arrows, there are enzymes. Other nutrients will probably affect the enzyme activities.
> >>> I started taking SAM-e recently...is it ok to take SAM-e everyday (or is this not a good idea? i.e., will your body stop making it on its own (or something to that effect?)
>
> I have no idea, but it's reasonable that there may be a feedback inhibition of SAMe synthesis if there's a lot of it floating around.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, how would someone know which supps they were taking had such a feedback inhibition process? It would seem that any time someone took supplements on their own that they may be affecting the body's feedback inhibition process....and when/if they stopped taking the particular supp(s), they could be negatively affected because the body may have stopped or at least curtailed its own production of said supp(s)....which makes me hesitant to 'tinker' much on my own?There's a difference between taking precursors and products, as I mentioned above. Moreover, nearly all of the supps I mention have the effect of enhancing your body's ability to process precursors. That's what the B-vitamins do. That's what the minerals are for.
I generally do not recommend taking products. I recommend precursors (e.g. DLPA, TMG, fish oil), or what are called enzyme cofactors (e.g. B-vitamins), or substances which are key components of enzymes themselves (e.g. minerals).
> Or, add in the "forbidden" supps, one at a time, and see if they do anything.
>
> >>>>>>>>>I LOVE that---the 'forbidden' Pfeiffer supps....lol...it's like Adam & Eve in the garden, only they're reaching for the forbidden folic acid instead of the apple!!!There are lots of possibilities. Remember, I also suggested dropping some Pfeiffer recommendations. There is an interaction between inositol and lithium, for example. Maybe the combination doesn't suit you.
> I appreciate that. The reason I raised the issue at all is that you are paying Pfeiffer for advice that isn't working.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>It may be doing something, although apparently NOT according to their theory....it may be helping but it's definitely NOT because of lowered histamine levels.Right. What matters is how you feel, not whether their theory has been validated. There are a some fringe theories about the value of eating a super-fresh vegetarian diet, under the argument that there are special "vibrations" in those veggies. However, I doubt the health benefits really arise from vibrations, even if a person is healthier on such a diet.
> All I can offer you is another form of advice. It may or may not be of any value to you, either.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Your advice is ALWAYS very valuable to me Lar! I've learned a LOT from reading your posts on this board (I save many of them on my 'puter).Please give similar consideration to your own experience. What works or doesn't work for you is not based on my advice. It's based on your own experience.
> Combining SAMe with SJW (and, presumably, while you're still on Remeron) would require careful monitoring. It can be done. It's a dose issue.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, would SJW cancel out the need(purpose) of taking SAM-e? In other words, take enough SJW (in conjunction with the Remeron of course) and then the SAM-e isn't necessary? Or does SAM-e possess a mood-enhancing effect that SJW does not have?I have no doubt that they have different effects. Whether you will "need" SAMe any longer, with SJW, can only be determined by experiment.
>I PREFER to take AS FEW of the "KEY" pills/supps that I can to get the same desired effect (i.e., I'd rather take EITHER choice (1) Remeron + Sjw OR (2) Remeron + SAM-e.
There's your hypothesis. Do the experiment.
> Any thoughts on which combo might be more effective?
Nope. Though I lean towards SJW.
> If you decide to try adding in SJW, just make sure that you are familiar with the early signs of serotonin syndrome, in case it becomes an issue for you, and your unique metabolism.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>OK, I understand that.....but wouldn't Remeron + SJW have a VERY low chance of producing serotonin syndrome, since Remeron + an SSRI is allowable?Low probability, but not zero. If I've learned anything from discussions on Babble, it's that anything can happen. Anticipating adverse events is part of informed consent, IMHO.
>Again Lar, THANKS for all your help! IF I can use Rem/SJW or Rem/SAM-e for my anti-dep. that would be HUGE! Saying adios for good to SSRI's would be a godsend! TAKE CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get a plan, and give it a try.
Lar
Posted by Sean2003 on July 30, 2003, at 12:34:57
In reply to Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 23:18:25
I was interested to read your postings - i'm on *exactly* the same Pfeiffer regiment (except i added St. John's because i felt i needed it). I haven't gone through my second test results yet - should i even bother?
So far i'm not all that impressed. I submitted my 'monthly report' something like 6 weeks ago which had some questions and concerns and have heard NOTHING. My histamine was high - can't remember the exact # offhand, but not quite as high as yours...also a problem with zinc metabolism...and malabsorption issues according to hair anal. Nurse was talking about adding the $400 stool analysis in the follow-up testing as being beneficial. I don't know what to think. On the one hand it was helpful to actually get some test results rather than haphazardly trying one thing after another on my own...on the other hand, i haven't improved as much as i hoped i would (mainly depression and some OCD stuff)(it's been about 3 months) and their lack of response is really frustrating. BTW do you order your nutrients from their pharmacy or get them on your own? Are you also taking high amounts of calcium/magnesium?
Cheers,
Sean
> TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, I suppose it may be a LOT cheaper to just increase the TMG instead of me buying and taking SAM-e....but it seems that a lot of times when you try taking a precursor (i.e. the TMG) instead of the actual 'target' agent (SAM-e) that it doesn't work as well...that something gets 'lost' in the intended conversion process or just doesn't happen as well as it's supposed to.....taking actual SAM-e appears to have a much better effect on me than taking TMG.....is this the correct 'flowchart' by the way---TMG>methionine>Sam-e? (taking the SAM-e appears more effective TO ME than what the TMG & methionine were doing).
>
> >>> I started taking SAM-e recently...is it ok to take SAM-e everyday (or is this not a good idea? i.e., will your body stop making it on its own (or something to that effect?)
>
> I have no idea, but it's reasonable that there may be a feedback inhibition of SAMe synthesis if there's a lot of it floating around.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, how would someone know which supps they were taking had such a feedback inhibition process? It would seem that any time someone took supplements on their own that they may be affecting the body's feedback inhibition process....and when/if they stopped taking the particular supp(s), they could be negatively affected because the body may have stopped or at least curtailed its own production of said supp(s)....which makes me hesitant to 'tinker' much on my own?
>
> Or, add in the "forbidden" supps, one at a time, and see if they do anything.
>
> >>>>>>>>>I LOVE that---the 'forbidden' Pfeiffer supps....lol...it's like Adam & Eve in the garden, only they're reaching for the forbidden folic acid instead of the apple!!!
>
> I appreciate that. The reason I raised the issue at all is that you are paying Pfeiffer for advice that isn't working.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>It may be doing something, although apparently NOT according to their theory....it may be helping but it's definitely NOT because of lowered histamine levels.
>
> All I can offer you is another form of advice. It may or may not be of any value to you, either.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Your advice is ALWAYS very valuable to me Lar! I've learned a LOT from reading your posts on this board (I save many of them on my 'puter).
>
> Combining SAMe with SJW (and, presumably, while you're still on Remeron) would require careful monitoring. It can be done. It's a dose issue.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, would SJW cancel out the need(purpose) of taking SAM-e? In other words, take enough SJW (in conjunction with the Remeron of course) and then the SAM-e isn't necessary? Or does SAM-e possess a mood-enhancing effect that SJW does not have? I PREFER to take AS FEW of the "KEY" pills/supps that I can to get the same desired effect (i.e., I'd rather take EITHER choice (1) Remeron + Sjw OR (2) Remeron + SAM-e.
> Any thoughts on which combo might be more effective?
>
> If you decide to try adding in SJW, just make sure that you are familiar with the early signs of serotonin syndrome, in case it becomes an issue for you, and your unique metabolism.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>OK, I understand that.....but wouldn't Remeron + SJW have a VERY low chance of producing serotonin syndrome, since Remeron + an SSRI is allowable? Again Lar, THANKS for all your help! IF I can use Rem/SJW or Rem/SAM-e for my anti-dep. that would be HUGE! Saying adios for good to SSRI's would be a godsend! TAKE CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
Posted by McPac on July 31, 2003, at 19:57:52
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by Sean2003 on July 30, 2003, at 12:34:57
Good to hear from you Sean! A fellow Pfeiffer alumni, huh!
I was interested to read your postings - i'm on *exactly* the same Pfeiffer regiment (except i added St. John's because i felt i needed it).
>>>>>>Sean, which meds are you currently taking?
I haven't gone through my second test results yet - should i even bother?
>>>>>>>>Well....after getting my Follow-up test results recently, Pfeiffer did make some changes (they upped the dosage of a few supplements)....I'm going to stick with them (for awhile anyway) to see how things pan out.
So far i'm not all that impressed. I submitted my 'monthly report' something like 6 weeks ago which had some questions and concerns and have heard NOTHING.
>>>>>>>>>> Your monthly 'Progress Reports' right?
Yeah, they won't respond to those in most cases (they read them and keep them in your file there but unless there's a major issue that you raise within the report, they really don't respond to those). You can call them if you need to but be prepared to play "phone tag" with them, lol.My histamine was high - can't remember the exact # offhand, but not quite as high as yours
>>>>>>>>>My recent histamine was 186 (and rising)
...also a problem with zinc metabolism
>>>>>>>>>They've just upped my zinc dosage considerably as my zinc is deficient.
...and malabsorption issues according to hair anal. Nurse was talking about adding the $400 stool analysis in the follow-up testing as being beneficial. I don't know what to think.
>>>>>>>> I wonder which hair results of yours indicated possible malabsorption issues?
On the one hand it was helpful to actually get some test results rather than haphazardly trying one thing after another on my own
>>>>>>>>>>>True!
...on the other hand, i haven't improved as much as i hoped i would (mainly depression and some OCD stuff)(it's been about 3 months)
>>>>>>>>>>I hear ya! Which med(s) you on dude? Is the St.JWort doing ANYTHING at all for you? (how long you been taking that?)
and their lack of response is really frustrating.
>>>>>>>>>> Call them!!
BTW do you order your nutrients from their pharmacy or get them on your own?
>>>>>>>>>>SO FAR, I've ordered most from them...though I have purchased some of their recc'd supps on my own. I AM going to start buying more of the stuff on my own (I'm sure I can probably save a good amount of money by purchasing the stuff on my own....Vitamin Shoppe, here I come!
Are you also taking high amounts of calcium/magnesium?
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, 1000 mg. of EACH.
Take care Sean and keep me informed! Pfeiffer will spend a decent amount of time with you on your Follow-Up Visit (write your questions down and bring them with you to get answers! They will modify your regimen, if needed....let me know which meds you're on, you may get the best and quickest positive effect by adjusting your meds......take care!
Posted by joebob on July 31, 2003, at 22:52:33
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on July 19, 2003, at 7:56:39
Posted by McPac on July 31, 2003, at 23:01:19
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on July 28, 2003, at 9:59:53
Lar,
Hot off the Press.....I just received Pfeiffer's modification of my supplement plan. They did the follow-up testing about a month ago and based on those test results, here are their changes for me:
1) Vitamin B-12(Methyl) INcreased from 2,000 mcg to 5,000 mcg SUBLINGUAL (there's a note which says that they want me to consider B-12 injections....don't know if I will due to fact that I'd have to pay for each injection/dr. visit......do you think that the B-12 injections would really be much better than the sublingual form Lar?
2) TMG has been INcreased from 500 mg to 1400 mg a day (700 mg/2x a day)
3) Vitamin B-5 (Pantothenic Acid) has been added....I was wondering why this wasn't in my regimen from the beginning....the 'anti-stress' vitamin.....500 mg a day
4) SAM-e has been suggested (it says "if helpful") 200-400 mg/2x a day (Total of 400-800 mg/day).....I think I'm going to try SJW instead though (Pfeiffer recc'd SAM-e because they think I'm still on an ssri....since I'm NOT, I'll try SJW instead)
5)Zinc Picolinate has been INcreased from 85 mg to 165 mg (despite taking 85 mg of Zinc for 7 months, my Zinc level FELL from a 96 to a 91 (per Pfeiffer's lab scale)! They say they want my Zinc between 105-130....my ratio of zinc:copper has improved though
6) Methionine INcreased from 2,000 mg to 2,500 mg/day
**ALL other supp's remained the same.........I'll follow this plan and in time I'll see if I can "Feel" a difference....any thoughts compadres?
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 10:08:24
In reply to Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on July 31, 2003, at 23:01:19
> Lar,
>
> Hot off the Press.....I just received Pfeiffer's modification of my supplement plan. They did the follow-up testing about a month ago and based on those test results, here are their changes for me:
>
> 1) Vitamin B-12(Methyl) INcreased from 2,000 mcg to 5,000 mcg SUBLINGUAL (there's a note which says that they want me to consider B-12 injections....don't know if I will due to fact that I'd have to pay for each injection/dr. visit......do you think that the B-12 injections would really be much better than the sublingual form Lar?Either/or, not both. Regular oral B-12 (i.e. tablets you swallow), at 5,000 mcg/day would be more than adequate. Using sublingual forms would easily exceed the efficacy of the oral form. I can see no reason to consider injections.
> 2) TMG has been INcreased from 500 mg to 1400 mg a day (700 mg/2x a day)
Fine. Just watch for over-stimulation. I'd get insomnia at that dose, but it may be fine for you.
> 3) Vitamin B-5 (Pantothenic Acid) has been added....I was wondering why this wasn't in my regimen from the beginning....the 'anti-stress' vitamin.....500 mg a dayTheir rules are arbitrary, IMHO. I did recommend a B-complex to you already. I don't believe in high doses of individual B's, except when they are on top of a B-complex.
> 4) SAM-e has been suggested (it says "if helpful") 200-400 mg/2x a day (Total of 400-800 mg/day).....I think I'm going to try SJW instead though (Pfeiffer recc'd SAM-e because they think I'm still on an ssri....since I'm NOT, I'll try SJW instead)Sounds good to me.
> 5)Zinc Picolinate has been INcreased from 85 mg to 165 mg (despite taking 85 mg of Zinc for 7 months, my Zinc level FELL from a 96 to a 91 (per Pfeiffer's lab scale)! They say they want my Zinc between 105-130....my ratio of zinc:copper has improved thoughPicolinate? When I researched chromium picolinate a few weeks back, I discovered compelling evidence that picolinic acid has adverse effects. Find a different form of zinc, OK? I use citrate, but I've also used chelated zinc.
It takes months, even years, to get a the zinc/copper ratio adjusted, it you're high copper to begin with.
> 6) Methionine INcreased from 2,000 mg to 2,500 mg/dayWhatever, on that one.
> **ALL other supp's remained the same.........I'll follow this plan and in time I'll see if I can "Feel" a difference....any thoughts compadres?It took me years to fine-tune and adapt to my own supplement regimen. My advice is not to look for a "quick-fix" effect, but instead, a change in long-term trends. We're talking subtle change, which is really very hard to notice, unless you keep a very detailed mood diary, or such.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 10:19:03
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by Sean2003 on July 30, 2003, at 12:34:57
> My histamine was high - can't remember the exact # offhand, but not quite as high as yours...
What a coincidence. I'm starting to feel cynical about Pfeiffer.
>also a problem with zinc metabolism...
Actually, I think zinc deficiency is really quite common.
>and malabsorption issues according to hair anal.
Damn. Gotta watch those anal hairs. <Sorry>
> Nurse was talking about adding the $400 stool analysis in the follow-up testing as being beneficial. I don't know what to think.
Stool analysis for what, in particular? Fat malabsorption leads to steatorrhea (fatty stool). It has quite obvious characteristics, and you could self-diagnose that one. I don't know of any other malabsorption syndrome that requires stool analysis. Parasites might be a problem, but you'd probably be otherwise symptomatic.
> On the one hand it was helpful to actually get some test results rather than haphazardly trying one thing after another on my own...on the other hand, i haven't improved as much as i hoped i would (mainly depression and some OCD stuff)(it's been about 3 months) and their lack of response is really frustrating.
You didn't develop the underlying metabolic changes that promote your psychiatric symptoms overnight, and you will not correct them overnight. You will retain the genetic tendency to the metabolic disturbance, even with supplementation. Not noticing a subtle change/improvement does not mean there isn't one, or that you're not preventing continued decline in functionality.
If you prefer the sledgehammer swat of prescription medication, go for it.
I don't mean to sound contrary. I'm just putting the choice in black and white.
Lar
Posted by McPac on August 1, 2003, at 12:05:21
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 10:08:24
Thanks again Lar!
Either/or, not both. Regular oral B-12 (i.e. tablets you swallow), at 5,000 mcg/day would be more than adequate. Using sublingual forms would easily exceed the efficacy of the oral form. I can see no reason to consider injections.
>>>>>>>>>Some folks are said to not absorb B-12 very well at all....which is why (I guess) they're suggesting the sublimgual or injection forms.....so, "IF" I am not absorbing the B12 well at all, you think that enough will be absorbed if I just take a regular 5,000 mcg capsule huh?
Their rules are arbitrary, IMHO. I did recommend a B-complex to you already. I don't believe in high doses of individual B's, except when they are on top of a B-complex.
>>>>>>>> The reason that they say, "No B-Complex" is (as you know, lol) because they don't want me on B3 and folic acid, due to (they say) the fact that they build histamine blah, blah, blah....I don't know whether or not that is true but that's their reasoning.
> 5)Zinc Picolinate has been INcreased from 85 mg to 165 mg (despite taking 85 mg of Zinc for 7 months, my Zinc level FELL from a 96 to a 91 (per Pfeiffer's lab scale)! They say they want my Zinc between 105-130....my ratio of zinc:copper has improved though
Picolinate? When I researched chromium picolinate a few weeks back, I discovered compelling evidence that picolinic acid has adverse effects. Find a different form of zinc, OK? I use citrate, but I've also used chelated zinc.
>>>>>>>>>Yeah, I heard awhile back about chromium picolinate doing DNA damage (or something like that)....so picolinate, no matter what supp (nutrient) it is in, would do the same harm as if it were in chromium (i.e. 'anything picolinate' is not good?)
It takes months, even years, to get the zinc/copper ratio adjusted, it you're high copper to begin with.
>>>>>>>>>> yeah, I've went from a zinc-copper ratio of .80 to .89 in 7 months of treatment so far.
As always, thanks Hooverman!
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 15:27:29
In reply to Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on August 1, 2003, at 12:05:21
> Thanks again Lar!
>
> Either/or, not both. Regular oral B-12 (i.e. tablets you swallow), at 5,000 mcg/day would be more than adequate. Using sublingual forms would easily exceed the efficacy of the oral form. I can see no reason to consider injections.
>
> >>>>>>>>>Some folks are said to not absorb B-12 very well at all....which is why (I guess) they're suggesting the sublimgual or injection forms.....so, "IF" I am not absorbing the B12 well at all, you think that enough will be absorbed if I just take a regular 5,000 mcg capsule huh?Even a few years ago, "conventional wisdom" had it that people who didn't absorb B-12 due to a lack of what is called intrinsic factor had to have B-12 injections to avoid pernicious anemia. Well, when somebody actually gave oral B-12 to people who shouldn't be able to absorb it, guess what they found? Lo and behold, those people absorbed some anyway. Not as much as those with intrinsic factor, but enough to supply basic needs. The daily requirement for B-12 is said to be on the order of 6 or 8 micrograms. If even 1% of the 5,000 mcg you're taking is absorbed, you'll take in 50 mcg. I personally think that 6 or 8 micrograms is inadequate for optimal functioning, but passive absorption (in the total absence of intrinsic factor) is generally accepted to be about 3% of dose, so you'd get at least 150 mcg (based on 5,000 mcg available). Sublingual absorption would be greater than that.
> Their rules are arbitrary, IMHO. I did recommend a B-complex to you already. I don't believe in high doses of individual B's, except when they are on top of a B-complex.
>
> >>>>>>>> The reason that they say, "No B-Complex" is (as you know, lol) because they don't want me on B3 and folic acid, due to (they say) the fact that they build histamine blah, blah, blah....I don't know whether or not that is true but that's their reasoning.I think their arguments are simplistic. In any case, your own levels have risen, despite the advice they have given you.
> > 5)Zinc Picolinate has been INcreased from 85 mg to 165 mg (despite taking 85 mg of Zinc for 7 months, my Zinc level FELL from a 96 to a 91 (per Pfeiffer's lab scale)! They say they want my Zinc between 105-130....my ratio of zinc:copper has improved though
>
> Picolinate? When I researched chromium picolinate a few weeks back, I discovered compelling evidence that picolinic acid has adverse effects. Find a different form of zinc, OK? I use citrate, but I've also used chelated zinc.
>
> >>>>>>>>>Yeah, I heard awhile back about chromium picolinate doing DNA damage (or something like that)....so picolinate, no matter what supp (nutrient) it is in, would do the same harm as if it were in chromium (i.e. 'anything picolinate' is not good?)The DNA damage was only associated with chromium picolinate, not other forms of chromium. Picolinate (the salt of picolinic acid) is the culprit.
> It takes months, even years, to get the zinc/copper ratio adjusted, it you're high copper to begin with.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> yeah, I've went from a zinc-copper ratio of .80 to .89 in 7 months of treatment so far.You can probably block a substantial source of copper intake by always running the tap for 2 minutes before you collect water that will be used for food preparation or drinking. That's assuming you have copper plumbing.
> As always, thanks Hooverman!As always, you're welcome.
Lar
Posted by David Smith on August 2, 2003, at 22:43:58
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer » Sean2003, posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 10:19:03
"If you prefer the sledgehammer swat of prescription medication,
go for it."I just heard the most distressing speech.
It concerns the use of serotinergic drugs and their effects on the body.
I wonder what you folks think of it?
Try clicking on the second part of Dr. Ann Blake Tracy's lecture:http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/html/resources/audio.cfm
Thanks for any feedback.
dave
p.s. I am asking because once again I am questioning
whether I should continue my meds.
Posted by David Smith on August 2, 2003, at 23:32:46
In reply to If you prefer the sledgehammer .... » Larry Hoover, posted by David Smith on August 2, 2003, at 22:43:58
> "If you prefer the sledgehammer swat of prescription medication,
> go for it."
>
> I just heard the most distressing speech.
> It concerns the use of serotinergic drugs and their effects on the body.
> I wonder what you folks think of it?
> Try clicking on the second part of Dr. Ann Blake Tracy's lecture:
>
> http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/html/resources/audio.cfm
>
> Thanks for any feedback.
>
> dave
>
> p.s. I am asking because once again I am questioning
> whether I should continue my meds.Sorry about that post. It sounds like a commercial. The speech suggests that serotonin is actually toxic to the body and that we should not be blocking its absorption or increasing its production.
I guess I'm having an "off" day. Thanks anyway.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 6:35:49
In reply to If you prefer the sledgehammer .... » Larry Hoover, posted by David Smith on August 2, 2003, at 22:43:58
> "If you prefer the sledgehammer swat of prescription medication,
> go for it."That was rather harsh rhetoric. Nutritional supplementation seldom leads to drastic or sudden changes in functionality. It's subtle. It's gentle. It may appear to do nothing at all. But I don't believe it does nothing (that's a philosophical statement). I think that supplementation can create an upwards trend in functionality, which can only be properly assessed over extended periods of time. To borrow from Narcotics Anonymous, "You didn't become sick in one day, so easy does it."
Psychotropic medications are designed to have profound effects. That's the whole point, it seems to me. And they have their place.
I would never recommend that anyone discontinue meds to try supplements. I've needed meds, and I've used them. And when I think about it, it's the times I've been on meds that I needed them, ya know? Whether that time has passed for you is an important question to answer.
I was trying to emphasize one particular difference between supplementation and medication, i.e. gentle, perhaps unnoticeable improvement vs. immediate and profound effects/side-effects.
> I just heard the most distressing speech.
> It concerns the use of serotinergic drugs and their effects on the body.
> I wonder what you folks think of it?When I get a chance, I'll have a go at listening to it.
> Try clicking on the second part of Dr. Ann Blake Tracy's lecture:
>
> http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/html/resources/audio.cfm
>
> Thanks for any feedback.
>
> dave
>
> p.s. I am asking because once again I am questioning
> whether I should continue my meds.I hope you make a decision like that only after a good deal of reflection and planning. By planning, I mean things like ensuring supervision by a competent observer. Someone who can objectively assess how you're doing, and provide immediate support/treatment, if necessary.
Lar
Posted by David Smith on August 3, 2003, at 21:48:43
In reply to Re: If you prefer the sledgehammer .... » David Smith, posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 6:35:49
That was just what I needed to hear. Thank you.
I apologize for taking your quote out of context.
You have always been balanced in your responses.Regarding the hyperlink, you may want to take a pass on that.
You seem pretty busy and I don't want to take anymore of your time.I have a new GP who seems to be on the ball and I will consult with her regularly. Thanks again for your concern.
Dav
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 8:39:52
In reply to Sledgehammer .... » Larry Hoover, posted by David Smith on August 3, 2003, at 21:48:43
> That was just what I needed to hear. Thank you.
> I apologize for taking your quote out of context.You didn't. My rhetoric was "over the top". I'm sorry.
> You have always been balanced in your responses.
I'll go with "usually". <grin>
> Regarding the hyperlink, you may want to take a pass on that.
> You seem pretty busy and I don't want to take anymore of your time.Ya, but I'm interested in what's there. I just have to balance things (I have my kids all month). I hope I can get my old computer to work on an audio file.
> I have a new GP who seems to be on the ball and I will consult with her regularly. Thanks again for your concern.
>
> DavYou're welcome, Dav. Keep in touch.
Lar
Posted by MB on August 11, 2003, at 14:46:13
In reply to Re: Sledgehammer .... » David Smith, posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 8:39:52
Is this true about SSRIs increasing cortisol levels? This is scary. I listened to the audio clip recommended by Larry Hoover:
http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/ram/anti-1.ram
and
http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/ram/anti-2.ramWhile it is obvious that there are logical errors in this woman's (Tracy Ann Blake's) arguments, and she seems to have vested interests in essential oil sales, I'm still wondering how much truth is in this information.
What is everybody's opinion on these speeches? Is she full of "it", or are we in some danger? I think I am in a lot of danger with my depression (when depressed, I'm suicidal), but are the medication risks worth it? The medication doesn't work that well anyway. Am I really that much better off with the SSRI, I wonder? Lexapro only works when I smoke on it, so it doesn't seem the Lexapro is helping that much anyway, and the tobacco will kill me eventually. I'm so frustrated.
MB
Posted by McPac on August 11, 2003, at 15:03:36
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 15:27:29
Hi again Lar!
Just got back from vacationing.> >>>>>>>> The reason that they say, "No B-Complex" is (as you know, lol) because they don't want me on B3 and folic acid, due to (they say) the fact that they build histamine blah, blah, blah....I don't know whether or not that is true but that's their reasoning.
I think their arguments are simplistic. In any case, your own levels have risen, despite the advice they have given you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lar, when I brought this up (histamine level went from 129 in October to 186 in late June), the Pfeiffer nurse said, "Well, it's a different season".......that's true, my allergies (like many) often go completely crazy during the Summer months as opposed to the Winter season....so does this give Pfeiffer a valid "excuse" why my histamine went up a lot despite their treatment plan? The bottom line is clear, that the levels went UP, just wondering if that is an acceptable retort on their part...perhaps it's just going to take longer than I had hoped??? Also, they just increased my methionine another 500 mg/day and the TMG an add'l 700 mg/day as well (those are both used in lowering histamine, particularly the methionine....take care Lar!!
Posted by McPac on August 11, 2003, at 15:13:15
In reply to Re: If you prefer the sledgehammer .... » David Smith, posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 6:35:49
Lar, got to run something by you.......
Very recently I bought some supps from the Vitamin Shoppe....anyway, because I bought over $40 worth of stuff, I got this free book, "Patient, Heal Thyself" by Jordan Rubin (who owns Garden of Life, the probiotics (and more) company...(they sell Primal Defense, Perfect Food, etc.)..........just finished the book....very interesting.....wondered if you've ever tried Primal Defense (probiotic with homeostatic soil organisms)?.....I'd LOVE to get your take on that book's ideas for various problems, part. mental illness-type problems.....interesting reading, thought-provoking, enjoyable book to read.......anyway, take care Lar!
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 12, 2003, at 8:51:24
In reply to SSRIs increase cortisol? (was: Sledgehammer ....), posted by MB on August 11, 2003, at 14:46:13
> Is this true about SSRIs increasing cortisol levels? This is scary. I listened to the audio clip recommended by Larry Hoover:
>
> http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/ram/anti-1.ram
> and
> http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/ram/anti-2.ramJust to clarify, I didn't recommend them. I haven't had the time to listen to them, yet. My ancient computer couldn't even *do* media files. I just got it to work today. I'll let you know what I think.
> While it is obvious that there are logical errors in this woman's (Tracy Ann Blake's) arguments, and she seems to have vested interests in essential oil sales, I'm still wondering how much truth is in this information.
One opinion seldom counts for much, in my opinion. <irony intended>
> What is everybody's opinion on these speeches? Is she full of "it", or are we in some danger? I think I am in a lot of danger with my depression (when depressed, I'm suicidal), but are the medication risks worth it?Given the conditions you've stated, the drugs are worth the risk. That's when I use drugs.
> The medication doesn't work that well anyway.
If it gets you away from the suicidal ideation.....
>Am I really that much better off with the SSRI, I wonder? Lexapro only works when I smoke on it, so it doesn't seem the Lexapro is helping that much anyway, and the tobacco will kill me eventually. I'm so frustrated.
>
> MBThere is so much trial and error required. It *is* very frustrating.
If you think that nicotine is the "deciding factor", you don't need to smoke to get nicotine. Consider trying one of the nicotine replacement products used by people trying to quit.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 12, 2003, at 9:04:56
In reply to Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on August 11, 2003, at 15:03:36
> Hi again Lar!
> Just got back from vacationing.<jealous>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lar, when I brought this up (histamine level went from 129 in October to 186 in late June), the Pfeiffer nurse said, "Well, it's a different season".......that's true, my allergies (like many) often go completely crazy during the Summer months as opposed to the Winter season....so does this give Pfeiffer a valid "excuse" why my histamine went up a lot despite their treatment plan? The bottom line is clear, that the levels went UP, just wondering if that is an acceptable retort on their part...perhaps it's just going to take longer than I had hoped???
It's a possible, and reasonable, confounding variable....exposure to a noxious stimulus. The only way to really answer that is to monitor histamine over a number of seasons, and see if a pattern emerges. What season was it when you were first tested? A re-test in the same season would give you a pretty good answer.
> Also, they just increased my methionine another 500 mg/day and the TMG an add'l 700 mg/day as well (those are both used in lowering histamine, particularly the methionine....take care Lar!!
The net effect is to increase SAMe, and methylation (one-carbon metabolism). That has global impact, not just on histamine. In the end, the question needing answer is "Do you feel better?"
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 12, 2003, at 9:08:48
In reply to Larry Hoover, If you prefer the sledgehammer ...., posted by McPac on August 11, 2003, at 15:13:15
> Lar, got to run something by you.......
>
> Very recently I bought some supps from the Vitamin Shoppe....anyway, because I bought over $40 worth of stuff, I got this free book, "Patient, Heal Thyself" by Jordan Rubin (who owns Garden of Life, the probiotics (and more) company...(they sell Primal Defense, Perfect Food, etc.)..........just finished the book....very interesting.....wondered if you've ever tried Primal Defense (probiotic with homeostatic soil organisms)?.....Homeostatic soil organisms? I haven't a clue what he means by *that*. Probiotics, fine. Especially if your symptoms include digestive disturbances. Eating soil is a relatively common treatment in indigenous populations.
>I'd LOVE to get your take on that book's ideas for various problems, part. mental illness-type problems.....interesting reading, thought-provoking, enjoyable book to read.......anyway, take care Lar!
Well, I can't tell what's in the book, from here.
Lar
Posted by McPac on August 12, 2003, at 12:22:56
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on August 12, 2003, at 9:04:56
"What season was it when you were first tested?"
>>>>>>>>>I was tested in mid-October the 1st time (histamine level was 129).......the 2nd time in late June (level was 186).......(my allergies are typically much worse in late June than in October...so perhaps that is a valid excuse on their part?
Posted by MB on August 13, 2003, at 22:29:41
In reply to Re: SSRIs increase cortisol? (was: Sledgehammer ....) » MB, posted by Larry Hoover on August 12, 2003, at 8:51:24
> > Is this true about SSRIs increasing cortisol levels? This is scary. I listened to the audio clip recommended by Larry Hoover:
> >
> > http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/ram/anti-1.ram
> > and
> > http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/ram/anti-2.ram
>
> Just to clarify, I didn't recommend them. I haven't had the time to listen to them, yet. My ancient computer couldn't even *do* media files. I just got it to work today. I'll let you know what I think.
Clarification noted...I do appreciate the link though. I like to hear other opinions (even when biased...I guess all opinions are biased to a degree...)
> One opinion seldom counts for much, in my opinion. <irony intended>
Yeah, this is very true. Also, this woman makes many leaps to causation based solely on correlattions (a disease rate goes up in a town where a doctor is prescribing a lot of Prozac, so she leaps to blaming the Prozac...just not scientific). But if cortisol levels really *are* doubled by SSRIs (as she claims) that is pretty knarly...however, some people take Prozac for years without developing the Cushing's-like symptoms that too much cortisol (I think) would produce. Anyway, even if it's not enough to cause Cushing's, I think too much cortisol can't be a good thing.
> Given the conditions you've stated, the drugs are worth the risk. That's when I use drugs.
Yeah, I think it's worth the risk. I would like to get my cortisol levels tested, though. My doctor would probably think I was crazy for asking...
>
> > The medication doesn't work that well anyway.
>
> If it gets you away from the suicidal ideation.....
That's the big thing, I guess, isn't it? Also, my OCD symptoms are better on the Lexapro. I was killing myself with a pathologically perfectionist outlook on life (it made school horrible) and the Lex has helped with that.> If you think that nicotine is the "deciding factor", you don't need to smoke to get nicotine. Consider trying one of the nicotine replacement products used by people trying to quit.
>
> LarI've been chewing the nicotin gum trying to quit smoking (and I figured if it helped the depression, I would just keep chewing it). The funny thing is that the nicotin itself doesn't seem to help. When I smoke, I get an opiate-like feeling and some stimulation. With the nicotin gum, I just get the stimulation. I'm wondering if there's something else in the *smoke* itself besides the nicotin that helps the depression. Anyway, the answer to that question may never be found. I'm a recovering opiate addict, so some of the depression might be endorphin related. It's probably high time I started exercising again!!
MB
Posted by MB on August 13, 2003, at 22:35:05
In reply to Re: SSRIs increase cortisol? (was: Sledgehammer ....) » MB, posted by Larry Hoover on August 12, 2003, at 8:51:24
>
> I've been chewing the nicotin gum trying to quit smoking (and I figured if it helped the depression, I would just keep chewing it). The funny thing is that the nicotin itself doesn't seem to help. When I smoke, I get an opiate-like feeling and some stimulation. With the nicotin gum, I just get the stimulation. I'm wondering if there's something else in the *smoke* itself besides the nicotin that helps the depression. Anyway, the answer to that question may never be found. I'm a recovering opiate addict, so some of the depression might be endorphin related. It's probably high time I started exercising again!!
>
> MBHere's a babble link that might answer the question above:
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2003, at 8:26:03
In reply to Re: SSRIs increase cortisol? (was: Sledgehammer ....) » Larry Hoover, posted by MB on August 13, 2003, at 22:29:41
> > > Is this true about SSRIs increasing cortisol levels? This is scary. I listened to the audio clip recommended by Larry Hoover:
> > >
> > > http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/ram/anti-1.ram
> > > and
> > > http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/ram/anti-2.ram
> >
> > Just to clarify, I didn't recommend them. I haven't had the time to listen to them, yet. My ancient computer couldn't even *do* media files. I just got it to work today. I'll let you know what I think.OK. I got 3/4 of the way through the first one, and I just had to turn it off. I can only take so much bad science at one time....
> Clarification noted...I do appreciate the link though. I like to hear other opinions (even when biased...I guess all opinions are biased to a degree...)
Yes, they are. And I wish that was the first thing that everyone thought about. "Turn the filters on."
> > One opinion seldom counts for much, in my opinion. <irony intended>
>
>
> Yeah, this is very true. Also, this woman makes many leaps to causation based solely on correlattions (a disease rate goes up in a town where a doctor is prescribing a lot of Prozac, so she leaps to blaming the Prozac...just not scientific).I don't know where to start. I wish I kept notes while I listened. She's saying SSRIs cause Alzheimer's? And links to the Bible are truly bizarre, IMHO.
> But if cortisol levels really *are* doubled by SSRIs (as she claims) that is pretty knarly...however, some people take Prozac for years without developing the Cushing's-like symptoms that too much cortisol (I think) would produce. Anyway, even if it's not enough to cause Cushing's, I think too much cortisol can't be a good thing.
Some depressives are high-cortisol. Some are low. Some are hypo-responsive to adrenal challenge (e.g. dexamethasone challenge). Some are not. Are they different diseases, or the same disease at a different stage (I'm thinking something along the line of the different stages of stress adaptation, where the final stage is exhaustion). You'd have to have more than anecdote to determine if Cushing's syndrome (or anything masquerading as such) has anything whatsoever to do with SSRIs (or any drug). Geographic clusters of any symptom could very well be nothing more than a virus attacking people with comingled genes (people in one location tend to marry people from the same location).
Post-marketing surveillance of drug side-effects is a very important task of government, vis a vis public safety. Just take mental note of the number of drugs that have recently been withdrawn from the market because of rare but life-threatening side effects. The very idea that this is some sort of government/big pharma conspiracy to protect SSRI meds from similar oversight is absurd. Given the huge number of people medicated, it would be inconceivable that some people would *not* have serious, even life-threatening, side-effects. However, just as you cannot apply statistics to individuals, you cannot generalize from individual experience. The sword of reason cuts both ways.
My biggest criticism of this quack (I don't use the term very often) is the absence of any consideration of confounding variables. The second biggest is the leap from correlation (not even proven) to causation. My third biggest criticism is her use of name-dropping (that is a logical fallacy, referring to "experts" when it is the data that should be critically assessed). The fourth is to refer to research conducted 50 years ago as evidence of *anything*. She quotes some dead white man as saying that serotonin is a neuro-toxin. Puh-lease! The fifth is to say that people need not fear, as she has the solution to all ills (essential oils). As if she'd be the only person to make note of such a phenomenon, if it really existed. I could go on, but I'll stop now.
> > Given the conditions you've stated, the drugs are worth the risk. That's when I use drugs.
>
>
> Yeah, I think it's worth the risk. I would like to get my cortisol levels tested, though. My doctor would probably think I was crazy for asking...Probably not, actually, if my own doctor can serve as an example. Get your DHEA/DHEA-S tested at the same time.
> >
> > > The medication doesn't work that well anyway.
> >
> > If it gets you away from the suicidal ideation.....
>
>
> That's the big thing, I guess, isn't it?The *only* issue, at the time, IMHO. Drug side-effects? Whatever. What's the "side-effect" of suicidality?
>Also, my OCD symptoms are better on the Lexapro. I was killing myself with a pathologically perfectionist outlook on life (it made school horrible) and the Lex has helped with that.
As has cognitive reassessment. I can "see" you doing it.
> > If you think that nicotine is the "deciding factor", you don't need to smoke to get nicotine. Consider trying one of the nicotine replacement products used by people trying to quit.
> >
> > Lar
>
> I've been chewing the nicotin gum trying to quit smoking (and I figured if it helped the depression, I would just keep chewing it). The funny thing is that the nicotin itself doesn't seem to help. When I smoke, I get an opiate-like feeling and some stimulation. With the nicotin gum, I just get the stimulation. I'm wondering if there's something else in the *smoke* itself besides the nicotin that helps the depression. Anyway, the answer to that question may never be found. I'm a recovering opiate addict, so some of the depression might be endorphin related. It's probably high time I started exercising again!!
>
> MBExercise has benefits apart from endorphin release. <intentional understatement>
Best,
Lar
Posted by MB on August 15, 2003, at 12:53:28
In reply to Re: Tracy's tapes » MB, posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2003, at 8:26:03
> OK. I got 3/4 of the way through the first one, and I just had to turn it off. I can only take so much bad science at one time....
Heh heh, yeah, it *was* bad, but I wanted you to listen to it yourself before I told you just how bad it was (didn't want to predjudice you against it). But as bad as it was, I *did* find some evidence on medline for SSRI-induced increases in cortisol levels. "SSRIs are a slow fuse LSD..." ROTFLMAO!!! And when she says PCP and SSRIs work in similar ways; Puh-leeez. I always confuse NMDA receptor agonists with serotonin transporter antagonists. They're just so similar <sarcasm>.
> I don't know where to start. I wish I kept notes while I listened. She's saying SSRIs cause Alzheimer's? And links to the Bible are truly bizarre, IMHO.
Yeah, she's got a PhD in "Health Sciences." It's not like shes an MD or a pharmacologist or even a biologist. I agree, when the "scientist" starts supporting hypotheses with Bible quotes, I'm very weirded-out.> Some depressives are high-cortisol. Some are low. Some are hypo-responsive to adrenal challenge (e.g. dexamethasone challenge). Some are not. Are they different diseases, or the same disease at a different stage (I'm thinking something along the line of the different stages of stress adaptation, where the final stage is exhaustion). You'd have to have more than anecdote to determine if Cushing's syndrome (or anything masquerading as such) has anything whatsoever to do with SSRIs (or any drug). Geographic clusters of any symptom could very well be nothing more than a virus attacking people with comingled genes (people in one location tend to marry people from the same location).
My depressive symptoms are more of the atypical variety (reverse vegetative: hypersomnia, comfort eating, some mood reactivity, worse in the morning, better in the evening...). So, my cortisol levels might be low to begin with. It could be that increased cortisol might not even be a bad thing for me.> > Yeah, I think it's worth the risk. I would like to get my cortisol levels tested, though. My doctor would probably think I was crazy for asking...
>
> Probably not, actually, if my own doctor can serve as an example. Get your DHEA/DHEA-S tested at the same time.DHEA...is that an androgen precursor? I think I've taken that before. My reaction was weird...started having to shave twice a day and I broke out in acne. Called the doctor and found out that I was accidentally taking my daily dose three times a day (miscommunication on dosing instructions). LOL!
> Exercise has benefits apart from endorphin release. <intentional understatement>
>
> Best,
> LarYeah, I definitely need to get out more and exercise. When I was depressed, I felt "too depressed" to exercise. Now that I'm on clonazepam and Lexapro, I'm "too unmotivated" to exercise. Excuses, excuses...I just need to do it <like Nike says>
MB
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