![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 0:34:43
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on July 25, 2003, at 13:27:48
NADH is used to destroy histamine in the brain.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm just totally at a loss why Pfeiffer wouldn't have me taking something like NADH then....destroying histamine is their main goal with me!
Then, it's not working, is it?
>>>>>>> Nope! I may very well be getting some other health benefits but my histamine level is certainly not coming down...quite the contrary!
I cannot conceive of a reason why a B-complex formulation would cause you any harm, notwhithstanding all of Pfeiffer's advice.
>>>>>>>>>>>I DID see another web site saying absolutely NO folic acid if you have a high histamine level which you are trying to lower.
TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine.>>>>>>>>>>> I started taking SAM-e recently...is it ok to take SAM-e everyday (or is this not a good idea? i.e., will your body stop making it on its own (or something to that effect?)
I'm just suggesting that your meds may be part of the problem, despite your focus on the nutrients.
Lithium totally messed with my energy, focus, and ambition. Remeron messed me up in a lot of ways, too.
>>>>>>>>>The extreme lethargy and tiredness began RIGHT AFTER starting Pfeiffer's supplement plan....the lithium I've taken for 20 years....the Remeron isn't new either....again, it started RIGHT AFTER starting Pfeiffer's plan...my body has gotten more used to the supps but I'm still more lethargic and tired than I was prior to Pfeiffer.My advice is free, but that may be all it's worth.
>>>>>>>>>>It's highly valued by me!
I don't know of a reason why you couldn't take SJW with Remeron, as you can safely combine Remeron with tricyclics and SSRIs.
>>>>>>>>>> "Oh Happy Day".......I've always wanted to try SJW but I've been on those damned ssri's for eons! I'll look into SJW + Remeron (Remeron does effect serotonin, though I don't believe as much as the ssri's...that's why I thought Rem. might still not be allowed to be combined w/ SJW.....but if I can take the combo, I likely WILL! OK, one more thought now---can SAM-e and SJW be taken together? THANK YOU as always Hoovermeister!!!!
Posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 0:49:32
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by Caleb462 on July 24, 2003, at 0:18:25
"WHAT DO they DO that helps ocd/dep????? IS there an answer"
Unfortunately, no... there is no definite answer.
There is some data, for instance responders to ADs usually show heightened senstivity of D3 receptors, lowered senstivity at 5-HT2 and 5-HT3 receptors, etc.>>>>>>>>>>>>>Great to see you back here again Caleb! As for the above.....it's been the SSRI's and Nardil...those AD's, that have been most effective BY FAR for my dep and esp. ocd....other AD's didn't cut it....and don't the ssri's and Nardil have more of an effect on serotonin than the older TCA's?......I don't know but I thought they effected serotonin more (which was why I thought serotonin 'might' be key for ME (though I still believe that it's FAR MORE complex than just that....I know the brain is INCREDIBLY complex and w/ endless interactions going on in it....but the ssri's especially & Nardil also, help SO WELL that I wonder WHY they help so much better than other AD's? Just wondering....take care Caleb!!!
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 27, 2003, at 9:42:39
In reply to Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 0:34:43
>
> NADH is used to destroy histamine in the brain.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'm just totally at a loss why Pfeiffer wouldn't have me taking something like NADH then....destroying histamine is their main goal with me!That's their theory. Whether it's really a problem for you (as a root cause of your symptoms) is not proven, nor is it provable.
> Then, it's not working, is it?
>
> >>>>>>> Nope! I may very well be getting some other health benefits but my histamine level is certainly not coming down...quite the contrary!For any treatment I've ever heard of, there will be individuals who fail to respond as predicted. That's why it's an axiom in science that statistics cannot be applied to individuals; statistics represent patterns, and there is no pattern for a single person. After seven months, you've conducted a reasonable trial of their advice, IMHO.
> I cannot conceive of a reason why a B-complex formulation would cause you any harm, notwhithstanding all of Pfeiffer's advice.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>I DID see another web site saying absolutely NO folic acid if you have a high histamine level which you are trying to lower.I've seen a number of sites with the same advice, but they all seem to be based on a single primary source. It's merely repetition of a theme.
Folate is indeed an essential component of histamine synthesis, from the amino acid histidine. However, folate also promotes the creation of other things from histidine, and also plays a role in the destruction of histamine. The balance of these factors will be different in every person. The argument that folate must be avoided to block histamine is a simplification of an exceedingly complex process. You cannot know the relative rate of the individual processes in a single person. It's like looking at a snapshot of the cars tearing around a racetrack. You can't tell from a photo which car is the fastest one.
> TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I started taking SAM-e recently...is it ok to take SAM-e everyday (or is this not a good idea? i.e., will your body stop making it on its own (or something to that effect?)I have no idea, but it's reasonable that there may be a feedback inhibition of SAMe synthesis if there's a lot of it floating around.
> I'm just suggesting that your meds may be part of the problem, despite your focus on the nutrients.
> Lithium totally messed with my energy, focus, and ambition. Remeron messed me up in a lot of ways, too.
>
> >>>>>>>>>The extreme lethargy and tiredness began RIGHT AFTER starting Pfeiffer's supplement plan....the lithium I've taken for 20 years....the Remeron isn't new either....again, it started RIGHT AFTER starting Pfeiffer's plan...my body has gotten more used to the supps but I'm still more lethargic and tired than I was prior to Pfeiffer.That happens to some people, and for reasons that I've never seen adequately explained.
All I can suggest is that you try varying the supplements you take. For example, drop the inositol for a week, and see if you rebound a bit. Drop the zinc, in similar test. Drop all the B's for a week. That sort of thing.
Or, add in the "forbidden" supps, one at a time, and see if they do anything.
> My advice is free, but that may be all it's worth.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>It's highly valued by me!I appreciate that. The reason I raised the issue at all is that you are paying Pfeiffer for advice that isn't working. All I can offer you is another form of advice. It may or may not be of any value to you, either.
> I don't know of a reason why you couldn't take SJW with Remeron, as you can safely combine Remeron with tricyclics and SSRIs.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> "Oh Happy Day".......I've always wanted to try SJW but I've been on those damned ssri's for eons! I'll look into SJW + Remeron (Remeron does effect serotonin, though I don't believe as much as the ssri's...that's why I thought Rem. might still not be allowed to be combined w/ SJW.....but if I can take the combo, I likely WILL! OK, one more thought now---can SAM-e and SJW be taken together? THANK YOU as always Hoovermeister!!!!Combining SAMe with SJW (and, presumably, while you're still on Remeron) would require careful monitoring. It can be done. It's a dose issue.
The neat thing about SJW (in my opinion) is that it has many different modes of action, but none of those actions are intense. What I mean is, none of those effects arise from major changes in brain chemistry/function. It's more like, "A little bit here, and a little bit there." Also, SJW clears rapidly from the body, so if adverse effects do arise, withdrawal occurs quickly.
Still, when you get into combinations, predictablility of the effects is drastically reduced. If you decide to try adding in SJW, just make sure that you are familiar with the early signs of serotonin syndrome, in case it becomes an issue for you, and your unique metabolism.
Lar
Posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 23:18:25
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on July 27, 2003, at 9:42:39
TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine.
>>>>>>>>>>Lar, I suppose it may be a LOT cheaper to just increase the TMG instead of me buying and taking SAM-e....but it seems that a lot of times when you try taking a precursor (i.e. the TMG) instead of the actual 'target' agent (SAM-e) that it doesn't work as well...that something gets 'lost' in the intended conversion process or just doesn't happen as well as it's supposed to.....taking actual SAM-e appears to have a much better effect on me than taking TMG.....is this the correct 'flowchart' by the way---TMG>methionine>Sam-e? (taking the SAM-e appears more effective TO ME than what the TMG & methionine were doing).
>>> I started taking SAM-e recently...is it ok to take SAM-e everyday (or is this not a good idea? i.e., will your body stop making it on its own (or something to that effect?)I have no idea, but it's reasonable that there may be a feedback inhibition of SAMe synthesis if there's a lot of it floating around.
>>>>>>>>>>Lar, how would someone know which supps they were taking had such a feedback inhibition process? It would seem that any time someone took supplements on their own that they may be affecting the body's feedback inhibition process....and when/if they stopped taking the particular supp(s), they could be negatively affected because the body may have stopped or at least curtailed its own production of said supp(s)....which makes me hesitant to 'tinker' much on my own?
Or, add in the "forbidden" supps, one at a time, and see if they do anything.
>>>>>>>>>I LOVE that---the 'forbidden' Pfeiffer supps....lol...it's like Adam & Eve in the garden, only they're reaching for the forbidden folic acid instead of the apple!!!
I appreciate that. The reason I raised the issue at all is that you are paying Pfeiffer for advice that isn't working.
>>>>>>>>>>It may be doing something, although apparently NOT according to their theory....it may be helping but it's definitely NOT because of lowered histamine levels.
All I can offer you is another form of advice. It may or may not be of any value to you, either.
>>>>>>>>>> Your advice is ALWAYS very valuable to me Lar! I've learned a LOT from reading your posts on this board (I save many of them on my 'puter).
Combining SAMe with SJW (and, presumably, while you're still on Remeron) would require careful monitoring. It can be done. It's a dose issue.
>>>>>>>>>>Lar, would SJW cancel out the need(purpose) of taking SAM-e? In other words, take enough SJW (in conjunction with the Remeron of course) and then the SAM-e isn't necessary? Or does SAM-e possess a mood-enhancing effect that SJW does not have? I PREFER to take AS FEW of the "KEY" pills/supps that I can to get the same desired effect (i.e., I'd rather take EITHER choice (1) Remeron + Sjw OR (2) Remeron + SAM-e.
Any thoughts on which combo might be more effective?If you decide to try adding in SJW, just make sure that you are familiar with the early signs of serotonin syndrome, in case it becomes an issue for you, and your unique metabolism.
>>>>>>>>>>>>OK, I understand that.....but wouldn't Remeron + SJW have a VERY low chance of producing serotonin syndrome, since Remeron + an SSRI is allowable? Again Lar, THANKS for all your help! IF I can use Rem/SJW or Rem/SAM-e for my anti-dep. that would be HUGE! Saying adios for good to SSRI's would be a godsend! TAKE CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 28, 2003, at 9:59:53
In reply to Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 23:18:25
> TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, I suppose it may be a LOT cheaper to just increase the TMG instead of me buying and taking SAM-e....but it seems that a lot of times when you try taking a precursor (i.e. the TMG) instead of the actual 'target' agent (SAM-e) that it doesn't work as well...that something gets 'lost' in the intended conversion process or just doesn't happen as well as it's supposed to.....taking actual SAM-e appears to have a much better effect on me than taking TMG.....Yes, you will certainly over-ride your body's natural limits if you ingest products rather than precursors. If SAMe works better for you, fine. I'm just suggesting alternatives.
>is this the correct 'flowchart' by the way---TMG>methionine>Sam-e? (taking the SAM-e appears more effective TO ME than what the TMG & methionine were doing).
TMG + homocysteine --> DMG + methionine
methionine + adenosine --> S-adenosyl methionine
DMG is dimethylglycine. Where you see the arrows, there are enzymes. Other nutrients will probably affect the enzyme activities.
> >>> I started taking SAM-e recently...is it ok to take SAM-e everyday (or is this not a good idea? i.e., will your body stop making it on its own (or something to that effect?)
>
> I have no idea, but it's reasonable that there may be a feedback inhibition of SAMe synthesis if there's a lot of it floating around.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, how would someone know which supps they were taking had such a feedback inhibition process? It would seem that any time someone took supplements on their own that they may be affecting the body's feedback inhibition process....and when/if they stopped taking the particular supp(s), they could be negatively affected because the body may have stopped or at least curtailed its own production of said supp(s)....which makes me hesitant to 'tinker' much on my own?There's a difference between taking precursors and products, as I mentioned above. Moreover, nearly all of the supps I mention have the effect of enhancing your body's ability to process precursors. That's what the B-vitamins do. That's what the minerals are for.
I generally do not recommend taking products. I recommend precursors (e.g. DLPA, TMG, fish oil), or what are called enzyme cofactors (e.g. B-vitamins), or substances which are key components of enzymes themselves (e.g. minerals).
> Or, add in the "forbidden" supps, one at a time, and see if they do anything.
>
> >>>>>>>>>I LOVE that---the 'forbidden' Pfeiffer supps....lol...it's like Adam & Eve in the garden, only they're reaching for the forbidden folic acid instead of the apple!!!There are lots of possibilities. Remember, I also suggested dropping some Pfeiffer recommendations. There is an interaction between inositol and lithium, for example. Maybe the combination doesn't suit you.
> I appreciate that. The reason I raised the issue at all is that you are paying Pfeiffer for advice that isn't working.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>It may be doing something, although apparently NOT according to their theory....it may be helping but it's definitely NOT because of lowered histamine levels.Right. What matters is how you feel, not whether their theory has been validated. There are a some fringe theories about the value of eating a super-fresh vegetarian diet, under the argument that there are special "vibrations" in those veggies. However, I doubt the health benefits really arise from vibrations, even if a person is healthier on such a diet.
> All I can offer you is another form of advice. It may or may not be of any value to you, either.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Your advice is ALWAYS very valuable to me Lar! I've learned a LOT from reading your posts on this board (I save many of them on my 'puter).Please give similar consideration to your own experience. What works or doesn't work for you is not based on my advice. It's based on your own experience.
> Combining SAMe with SJW (and, presumably, while you're still on Remeron) would require careful monitoring. It can be done. It's a dose issue.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, would SJW cancel out the need(purpose) of taking SAM-e? In other words, take enough SJW (in conjunction with the Remeron of course) and then the SAM-e isn't necessary? Or does SAM-e possess a mood-enhancing effect that SJW does not have?I have no doubt that they have different effects. Whether you will "need" SAMe any longer, with SJW, can only be determined by experiment.
>I PREFER to take AS FEW of the "KEY" pills/supps that I can to get the same desired effect (i.e., I'd rather take EITHER choice (1) Remeron + Sjw OR (2) Remeron + SAM-e.
There's your hypothesis. Do the experiment.
> Any thoughts on which combo might be more effective?
Nope. Though I lean towards SJW.
> If you decide to try adding in SJW, just make sure that you are familiar with the early signs of serotonin syndrome, in case it becomes an issue for you, and your unique metabolism.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>OK, I understand that.....but wouldn't Remeron + SJW have a VERY low chance of producing serotonin syndrome, since Remeron + an SSRI is allowable?Low probability, but not zero. If I've learned anything from discussions on Babble, it's that anything can happen. Anticipating adverse events is part of informed consent, IMHO.
>Again Lar, THANKS for all your help! IF I can use Rem/SJW or Rem/SAM-e for my anti-dep. that would be HUGE! Saying adios for good to SSRI's would be a godsend! TAKE CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Get a plan, and give it a try.
Lar
Posted by Sean2003 on July 30, 2003, at 12:34:57
In reply to Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on July 27, 2003, at 23:18:25
I was interested to read your postings - i'm on *exactly* the same Pfeiffer regiment (except i added St. John's because i felt i needed it). I haven't gone through my second test results yet - should i even bother?
So far i'm not all that impressed. I submitted my 'monthly report' something like 6 weeks ago which had some questions and concerns and have heard NOTHING. My histamine was high - can't remember the exact # offhand, but not quite as high as yours...also a problem with zinc metabolism...and malabsorption issues according to hair anal. Nurse was talking about adding the $400 stool analysis in the follow-up testing as being beneficial. I don't know what to think. On the one hand it was helpful to actually get some test results rather than haphazardly trying one thing after another on my own...on the other hand, i haven't improved as much as i hoped i would (mainly depression and some OCD stuff)(it's been about 3 months) and their lack of response is really frustrating. BTW do you order your nutrients from their pharmacy or get them on your own? Are you also taking high amounts of calcium/magnesium?
Cheers,
Sean
> TMG will enhance your natural formation of SAMe, via methionine.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, I suppose it may be a LOT cheaper to just increase the TMG instead of me buying and taking SAM-e....but it seems that a lot of times when you try taking a precursor (i.e. the TMG) instead of the actual 'target' agent (SAM-e) that it doesn't work as well...that something gets 'lost' in the intended conversion process or just doesn't happen as well as it's supposed to.....taking actual SAM-e appears to have a much better effect on me than taking TMG.....is this the correct 'flowchart' by the way---TMG>methionine>Sam-e? (taking the SAM-e appears more effective TO ME than what the TMG & methionine were doing).
>
> >>> I started taking SAM-e recently...is it ok to take SAM-e everyday (or is this not a good idea? i.e., will your body stop making it on its own (or something to that effect?)
>
> I have no idea, but it's reasonable that there may be a feedback inhibition of SAMe synthesis if there's a lot of it floating around.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, how would someone know which supps they were taking had such a feedback inhibition process? It would seem that any time someone took supplements on their own that they may be affecting the body's feedback inhibition process....and when/if they stopped taking the particular supp(s), they could be negatively affected because the body may have stopped or at least curtailed its own production of said supp(s)....which makes me hesitant to 'tinker' much on my own?
>
> Or, add in the "forbidden" supps, one at a time, and see if they do anything.
>
> >>>>>>>>>I LOVE that---the 'forbidden' Pfeiffer supps....lol...it's like Adam & Eve in the garden, only they're reaching for the forbidden folic acid instead of the apple!!!
>
> I appreciate that. The reason I raised the issue at all is that you are paying Pfeiffer for advice that isn't working.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>It may be doing something, although apparently NOT according to their theory....it may be helping but it's definitely NOT because of lowered histamine levels.
>
> All I can offer you is another form of advice. It may or may not be of any value to you, either.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> Your advice is ALWAYS very valuable to me Lar! I've learned a LOT from reading your posts on this board (I save many of them on my 'puter).
>
> Combining SAMe with SJW (and, presumably, while you're still on Remeron) would require careful monitoring. It can be done. It's a dose issue.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>Lar, would SJW cancel out the need(purpose) of taking SAM-e? In other words, take enough SJW (in conjunction with the Remeron of course) and then the SAM-e isn't necessary? Or does SAM-e possess a mood-enhancing effect that SJW does not have? I PREFER to take AS FEW of the "KEY" pills/supps that I can to get the same desired effect (i.e., I'd rather take EITHER choice (1) Remeron + Sjw OR (2) Remeron + SAM-e.
> Any thoughts on which combo might be more effective?
>
> If you decide to try adding in SJW, just make sure that you are familiar with the early signs of serotonin syndrome, in case it becomes an issue for you, and your unique metabolism.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>OK, I understand that.....but wouldn't Remeron + SJW have a VERY low chance of producing serotonin syndrome, since Remeron + an SSRI is allowable? Again Lar, THANKS for all your help! IF I can use Rem/SJW or Rem/SAM-e for my anti-dep. that would be HUGE! Saying adios for good to SSRI's would be a godsend! TAKE CARE!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
Posted by McPac on July 31, 2003, at 19:57:52
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by Sean2003 on July 30, 2003, at 12:34:57
Good to hear from you Sean! A fellow Pfeiffer alumni, huh!
I was interested to read your postings - i'm on *exactly* the same Pfeiffer regiment (except i added St. John's because i felt i needed it).
>>>>>>Sean, which meds are you currently taking?
I haven't gone through my second test results yet - should i even bother?
>>>>>>>>Well....after getting my Follow-up test results recently, Pfeiffer did make some changes (they upped the dosage of a few supplements)....I'm going to stick with them (for awhile anyway) to see how things pan out.
So far i'm not all that impressed. I submitted my 'monthly report' something like 6 weeks ago which had some questions and concerns and have heard NOTHING.
>>>>>>>>>> Your monthly 'Progress Reports' right?
Yeah, they won't respond to those in most cases (they read them and keep them in your file there but unless there's a major issue that you raise within the report, they really don't respond to those). You can call them if you need to but be prepared to play "phone tag" with them, lol.My histamine was high - can't remember the exact # offhand, but not quite as high as yours
>>>>>>>>>My recent histamine was 186 (and rising)
...also a problem with zinc metabolism
>>>>>>>>>They've just upped my zinc dosage considerably as my zinc is deficient.
...and malabsorption issues according to hair anal. Nurse was talking about adding the $400 stool analysis in the follow-up testing as being beneficial. I don't know what to think.
>>>>>>>> I wonder which hair results of yours indicated possible malabsorption issues?
On the one hand it was helpful to actually get some test results rather than haphazardly trying one thing after another on my own
>>>>>>>>>>>True!
...on the other hand, i haven't improved as much as i hoped i would (mainly depression and some OCD stuff)(it's been about 3 months)
>>>>>>>>>>I hear ya! Which med(s) you on dude? Is the St.JWort doing ANYTHING at all for you? (how long you been taking that?)
and their lack of response is really frustrating.
>>>>>>>>>> Call them!!
BTW do you order your nutrients from their pharmacy or get them on your own?
>>>>>>>>>>SO FAR, I've ordered most from them...though I have purchased some of their recc'd supps on my own. I AM going to start buying more of the stuff on my own (I'm sure I can probably save a good amount of money by purchasing the stuff on my own....Vitamin Shoppe, here I come!
Are you also taking high amounts of calcium/magnesium?
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, 1000 mg. of EACH.
Take care Sean and keep me informed! Pfeiffer will spend a decent amount of time with you on your Follow-Up Visit (write your questions down and bring them with you to get answers! They will modify your regimen, if needed....let me know which meds you're on, you may get the best and quickest positive effect by adjusting your meds......take care!
Posted by joebob on July 31, 2003, at 22:52:33
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on July 19, 2003, at 7:56:39
Posted by McPac on July 31, 2003, at 23:01:19
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on July 28, 2003, at 9:59:53
Lar,
Hot off the Press.....I just received Pfeiffer's modification of my supplement plan. They did the follow-up testing about a month ago and based on those test results, here are their changes for me:
1) Vitamin B-12(Methyl) INcreased from 2,000 mcg to 5,000 mcg SUBLINGUAL (there's a note which says that they want me to consider B-12 injections....don't know if I will due to fact that I'd have to pay for each injection/dr. visit......do you think that the B-12 injections would really be much better than the sublingual form Lar?
2) TMG has been INcreased from 500 mg to 1400 mg a day (700 mg/2x a day)
3) Vitamin B-5 (Pantothenic Acid) has been added....I was wondering why this wasn't in my regimen from the beginning....the 'anti-stress' vitamin.....500 mg a day
4) SAM-e has been suggested (it says "if helpful") 200-400 mg/2x a day (Total of 400-800 mg/day).....I think I'm going to try SJW instead though (Pfeiffer recc'd SAM-e because they think I'm still on an ssri....since I'm NOT, I'll try SJW instead)
5)Zinc Picolinate has been INcreased from 85 mg to 165 mg (despite taking 85 mg of Zinc for 7 months, my Zinc level FELL from a 96 to a 91 (per Pfeiffer's lab scale)! They say they want my Zinc between 105-130....my ratio of zinc:copper has improved though
6) Methionine INcreased from 2,000 mg to 2,500 mg/day
**ALL other supp's remained the same.........I'll follow this plan and in time I'll see if I can "Feel" a difference....any thoughts compadres?
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 10:08:24
In reply to Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on July 31, 2003, at 23:01:19
> Lar,
>
> Hot off the Press.....I just received Pfeiffer's modification of my supplement plan. They did the follow-up testing about a month ago and based on those test results, here are their changes for me:
>
> 1) Vitamin B-12(Methyl) INcreased from 2,000 mcg to 5,000 mcg SUBLINGUAL (there's a note which says that they want me to consider B-12 injections....don't know if I will due to fact that I'd have to pay for each injection/dr. visit......do you think that the B-12 injections would really be much better than the sublingual form Lar?Either/or, not both. Regular oral B-12 (i.e. tablets you swallow), at 5,000 mcg/day would be more than adequate. Using sublingual forms would easily exceed the efficacy of the oral form. I can see no reason to consider injections.
> 2) TMG has been INcreased from 500 mg to 1400 mg a day (700 mg/2x a day)
Fine. Just watch for over-stimulation. I'd get insomnia at that dose, but it may be fine for you.
> 3) Vitamin B-5 (Pantothenic Acid) has been added....I was wondering why this wasn't in my regimen from the beginning....the 'anti-stress' vitamin.....500 mg a dayTheir rules are arbitrary, IMHO. I did recommend a B-complex to you already. I don't believe in high doses of individual B's, except when they are on top of a B-complex.
> 4) SAM-e has been suggested (it says "if helpful") 200-400 mg/2x a day (Total of 400-800 mg/day).....I think I'm going to try SJW instead though (Pfeiffer recc'd SAM-e because they think I'm still on an ssri....since I'm NOT, I'll try SJW instead)Sounds good to me.
> 5)Zinc Picolinate has been INcreased from 85 mg to 165 mg (despite taking 85 mg of Zinc for 7 months, my Zinc level FELL from a 96 to a 91 (per Pfeiffer's lab scale)! They say they want my Zinc between 105-130....my ratio of zinc:copper has improved thoughPicolinate? When I researched chromium picolinate a few weeks back, I discovered compelling evidence that picolinic acid has adverse effects. Find a different form of zinc, OK? I use citrate, but I've also used chelated zinc.
It takes months, even years, to get a the zinc/copper ratio adjusted, it you're high copper to begin with.
> 6) Methionine INcreased from 2,000 mg to 2,500 mg/dayWhatever, on that one.
> **ALL other supp's remained the same.........I'll follow this plan and in time I'll see if I can "Feel" a difference....any thoughts compadres?It took me years to fine-tune and adapt to my own supplement regimen. My advice is not to look for a "quick-fix" effect, but instead, a change in long-term trends. We're talking subtle change, which is really very hard to notice, unless you keep a very detailed mood diary, or such.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 10:19:03
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer, posted by Sean2003 on July 30, 2003, at 12:34:57
> My histamine was high - can't remember the exact # offhand, but not quite as high as yours...
What a coincidence. I'm starting to feel cynical about Pfeiffer.
>also a problem with zinc metabolism...
Actually, I think zinc deficiency is really quite common.
>and malabsorption issues according to hair anal.
Damn. Gotta watch those anal hairs. <Sorry>
> Nurse was talking about adding the $400 stool analysis in the follow-up testing as being beneficial. I don't know what to think.
Stool analysis for what, in particular? Fat malabsorption leads to steatorrhea (fatty stool). It has quite obvious characteristics, and you could self-diagnose that one. I don't know of any other malabsorption syndrome that requires stool analysis. Parasites might be a problem, but you'd probably be otherwise symptomatic.
> On the one hand it was helpful to actually get some test results rather than haphazardly trying one thing after another on my own...on the other hand, i haven't improved as much as i hoped i would (mainly depression and some OCD stuff)(it's been about 3 months) and their lack of response is really frustrating.
You didn't develop the underlying metabolic changes that promote your psychiatric symptoms overnight, and you will not correct them overnight. You will retain the genetic tendency to the metabolic disturbance, even with supplementation. Not noticing a subtle change/improvement does not mean there isn't one, or that you're not preventing continued decline in functionality.
If you prefer the sledgehammer swat of prescription medication, go for it.
I don't mean to sound contrary. I'm just putting the choice in black and white.
Lar
Posted by McPac on August 1, 2003, at 12:05:21
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 10:08:24
Thanks again Lar!
Either/or, not both. Regular oral B-12 (i.e. tablets you swallow), at 5,000 mcg/day would be more than adequate. Using sublingual forms would easily exceed the efficacy of the oral form. I can see no reason to consider injections.
>>>>>>>>>Some folks are said to not absorb B-12 very well at all....which is why (I guess) they're suggesting the sublimgual or injection forms.....so, "IF" I am not absorbing the B12 well at all, you think that enough will be absorbed if I just take a regular 5,000 mcg capsule huh?
Their rules are arbitrary, IMHO. I did recommend a B-complex to you already. I don't believe in high doses of individual B's, except when they are on top of a B-complex.
>>>>>>>> The reason that they say, "No B-Complex" is (as you know, lol) because they don't want me on B3 and folic acid, due to (they say) the fact that they build histamine blah, blah, blah....I don't know whether or not that is true but that's their reasoning.
> 5)Zinc Picolinate has been INcreased from 85 mg to 165 mg (despite taking 85 mg of Zinc for 7 months, my Zinc level FELL from a 96 to a 91 (per Pfeiffer's lab scale)! They say they want my Zinc between 105-130....my ratio of zinc:copper has improved though
Picolinate? When I researched chromium picolinate a few weeks back, I discovered compelling evidence that picolinic acid has adverse effects. Find a different form of zinc, OK? I use citrate, but I've also used chelated zinc.
>>>>>>>>>Yeah, I heard awhile back about chromium picolinate doing DNA damage (or something like that)....so picolinate, no matter what supp (nutrient) it is in, would do the same harm as if it were in chromium (i.e. 'anything picolinate' is not good?)
It takes months, even years, to get the zinc/copper ratio adjusted, it you're high copper to begin with.
>>>>>>>>>> yeah, I've went from a zinc-copper ratio of .80 to .89 in 7 months of treatment so far.
As always, thanks Hooverman!
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 15:27:29
In reply to Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on August 1, 2003, at 12:05:21
> Thanks again Lar!
>
> Either/or, not both. Regular oral B-12 (i.e. tablets you swallow), at 5,000 mcg/day would be more than adequate. Using sublingual forms would easily exceed the efficacy of the oral form. I can see no reason to consider injections.
>
> >>>>>>>>>Some folks are said to not absorb B-12 very well at all....which is why (I guess) they're suggesting the sublimgual or injection forms.....so, "IF" I am not absorbing the B12 well at all, you think that enough will be absorbed if I just take a regular 5,000 mcg capsule huh?Even a few years ago, "conventional wisdom" had it that people who didn't absorb B-12 due to a lack of what is called intrinsic factor had to have B-12 injections to avoid pernicious anemia. Well, when somebody actually gave oral B-12 to people who shouldn't be able to absorb it, guess what they found? Lo and behold, those people absorbed some anyway. Not as much as those with intrinsic factor, but enough to supply basic needs. The daily requirement for B-12 is said to be on the order of 6 or 8 micrograms. If even 1% of the 5,000 mcg you're taking is absorbed, you'll take in 50 mcg. I personally think that 6 or 8 micrograms is inadequate for optimal functioning, but passive absorption (in the total absence of intrinsic factor) is generally accepted to be about 3% of dose, so you'd get at least 150 mcg (based on 5,000 mcg available). Sublingual absorption would be greater than that.
> Their rules are arbitrary, IMHO. I did recommend a B-complex to you already. I don't believe in high doses of individual B's, except when they are on top of a B-complex.
>
> >>>>>>>> The reason that they say, "No B-Complex" is (as you know, lol) because they don't want me on B3 and folic acid, due to (they say) the fact that they build histamine blah, blah, blah....I don't know whether or not that is true but that's their reasoning.I think their arguments are simplistic. In any case, your own levels have risen, despite the advice they have given you.
> > 5)Zinc Picolinate has been INcreased from 85 mg to 165 mg (despite taking 85 mg of Zinc for 7 months, my Zinc level FELL from a 96 to a 91 (per Pfeiffer's lab scale)! They say they want my Zinc between 105-130....my ratio of zinc:copper has improved though
>
> Picolinate? When I researched chromium picolinate a few weeks back, I discovered compelling evidence that picolinic acid has adverse effects. Find a different form of zinc, OK? I use citrate, but I've also used chelated zinc.
>
> >>>>>>>>>Yeah, I heard awhile back about chromium picolinate doing DNA damage (or something like that)....so picolinate, no matter what supp (nutrient) it is in, would do the same harm as if it were in chromium (i.e. 'anything picolinate' is not good?)The DNA damage was only associated with chromium picolinate, not other forms of chromium. Picolinate (the salt of picolinic acid) is the culprit.
> It takes months, even years, to get the zinc/copper ratio adjusted, it you're high copper to begin with.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> yeah, I've went from a zinc-copper ratio of .80 to .89 in 7 months of treatment so far.You can probably block a substantial source of copper intake by always running the tap for 2 minutes before you collect water that will be used for food preparation or drinking. That's assuming you have copper plumbing.
> As always, thanks Hooverman!As always, you're welcome.
Lar
Posted by David Smith on August 2, 2003, at 22:43:58
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, Re: Pfeiffer » Sean2003, posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 10:19:03
"If you prefer the sledgehammer swat of prescription medication,
go for it."I just heard the most distressing speech.
It concerns the use of serotinergic drugs and their effects on the body.
I wonder what you folks think of it?
Try clicking on the second part of Dr. Ann Blake Tracy's lecture:http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/html/resources/audio.cfm
Thanks for any feedback.
dave
p.s. I am asking because once again I am questioning
whether I should continue my meds.
Posted by David Smith on August 2, 2003, at 23:32:46
In reply to If you prefer the sledgehammer .... » Larry Hoover, posted by David Smith on August 2, 2003, at 22:43:58
> "If you prefer the sledgehammer swat of prescription medication,
> go for it."
>
> I just heard the most distressing speech.
> It concerns the use of serotinergic drugs and their effects on the body.
> I wonder what you folks think of it?
> Try clicking on the second part of Dr. Ann Blake Tracy's lecture:
>
> http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/html/resources/audio.cfm
>
> Thanks for any feedback.
>
> dave
>
> p.s. I am asking because once again I am questioning
> whether I should continue my meds.Sorry about that post. It sounds like a commercial. The speech suggests that serotonin is actually toxic to the body and that we should not be blocking its absorption or increasing its production.
I guess I'm having an "off" day. Thanks anyway.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 6:35:49
In reply to If you prefer the sledgehammer .... » Larry Hoover, posted by David Smith on August 2, 2003, at 22:43:58
> "If you prefer the sledgehammer swat of prescription medication,
> go for it."That was rather harsh rhetoric. Nutritional supplementation seldom leads to drastic or sudden changes in functionality. It's subtle. It's gentle. It may appear to do nothing at all. But I don't believe it does nothing (that's a philosophical statement). I think that supplementation can create an upwards trend in functionality, which can only be properly assessed over extended periods of time. To borrow from Narcotics Anonymous, "You didn't become sick in one day, so easy does it."
Psychotropic medications are designed to have profound effects. That's the whole point, it seems to me. And they have their place.
I would never recommend that anyone discontinue meds to try supplements. I've needed meds, and I've used them. And when I think about it, it's the times I've been on meds that I needed them, ya know? Whether that time has passed for you is an important question to answer.
I was trying to emphasize one particular difference between supplementation and medication, i.e. gentle, perhaps unnoticeable improvement vs. immediate and profound effects/side-effects.
> I just heard the most distressing speech.
> It concerns the use of serotinergic drugs and their effects on the body.
> I wonder what you folks think of it?When I get a chance, I'll have a go at listening to it.
> Try clicking on the second part of Dr. Ann Blake Tracy's lecture:
>
> http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/html/resources/audio.cfm
>
> Thanks for any feedback.
>
> dave
>
> p.s. I am asking because once again I am questioning
> whether I should continue my meds.I hope you make a decision like that only after a good deal of reflection and planning. By planning, I mean things like ensuring supervision by a competent observer. Someone who can objectively assess how you're doing, and provide immediate support/treatment, if necessary.
Lar
Posted by David Smith on August 3, 2003, at 21:48:43
In reply to Re: If you prefer the sledgehammer .... » David Smith, posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 6:35:49
That was just what I needed to hear. Thank you.
I apologize for taking your quote out of context.
You have always been balanced in your responses.Regarding the hyperlink, you may want to take a pass on that.
You seem pretty busy and I don't want to take anymore of your time.I have a new GP who seems to be on the ball and I will consult with her regularly. Thanks again for your concern.
Dav
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 8:39:52
In reply to Sledgehammer .... » Larry Hoover, posted by David Smith on August 3, 2003, at 21:48:43
> That was just what I needed to hear. Thank you.
> I apologize for taking your quote out of context.You didn't. My rhetoric was "over the top". I'm sorry.
> You have always been balanced in your responses.
I'll go with "usually". <grin>
> Regarding the hyperlink, you may want to take a pass on that.
> You seem pretty busy and I don't want to take anymore of your time.Ya, but I'm interested in what's there. I just have to balance things (I have my kids all month). I hope I can get my old computer to work on an audio file.
> I have a new GP who seems to be on the ball and I will consult with her regularly. Thanks again for your concern.
>
> DavYou're welcome, Dav. Keep in touch.
Lar
Posted by MB on August 11, 2003, at 14:46:13
In reply to Re: Sledgehammer .... » David Smith, posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 8:39:52
Is this true about SSRIs increasing cortisol levels? This is scary. I listened to the audio clip recommended by Larry Hoover:
http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/ram/anti-1.ram
and
http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/ram/anti-2.ramWhile it is obvious that there are logical errors in this woman's (Tracy Ann Blake's) arguments, and she seems to have vested interests in essential oil sales, I'm still wondering how much truth is in this information.
What is everybody's opinion on these speeches? Is she full of "it", or are we in some danger? I think I am in a lot of danger with my depression (when depressed, I'm suicidal), but are the medication risks worth it? The medication doesn't work that well anyway. Am I really that much better off with the SSRI, I wonder? Lexapro only works when I smoke on it, so it doesn't seem the Lexapro is helping that much anyway, and the tobacco will kill me eventually. I'm so frustrated.
MB
Posted by McPac on August 11, 2003, at 15:03:36
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 15:27:29
Hi again Lar!
Just got back from vacationing.> >>>>>>>> The reason that they say, "No B-Complex" is (as you know, lol) because they don't want me on B3 and folic acid, due to (they say) the fact that they build histamine blah, blah, blah....I don't know whether or not that is true but that's their reasoning.
I think their arguments are simplistic. In any case, your own levels have risen, despite the advice they have given you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lar, when I brought this up (histamine level went from 129 in October to 186 in late June), the Pfeiffer nurse said, "Well, it's a different season".......that's true, my allergies (like many) often go completely crazy during the Summer months as opposed to the Winter season....so does this give Pfeiffer a valid "excuse" why my histamine went up a lot despite their treatment plan? The bottom line is clear, that the levels went UP, just wondering if that is an acceptable retort on their part...perhaps it's just going to take longer than I had hoped??? Also, they just increased my methionine another 500 mg/day and the TMG an add'l 700 mg/day as well (those are both used in lowering histamine, particularly the methionine....take care Lar!!
Posted by McPac on August 11, 2003, at 15:13:15
In reply to Re: If you prefer the sledgehammer .... » David Smith, posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 6:35:49
Lar, got to run something by you.......
Very recently I bought some supps from the Vitamin Shoppe....anyway, because I bought over $40 worth of stuff, I got this free book, "Patient, Heal Thyself" by Jordan Rubin (who owns Garden of Life, the probiotics (and more) company...(they sell Primal Defense, Perfect Food, etc.)..........just finished the book....very interesting.....wondered if you've ever tried Primal Defense (probiotic with homeostatic soil organisms)?.....I'd LOVE to get your take on that book's ideas for various problems, part. mental illness-type problems.....interesting reading, thought-provoking, enjoyable book to read.......anyway, take care Lar!
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 12, 2003, at 8:51:24
In reply to SSRIs increase cortisol? (was: Sledgehammer ....), posted by MB on August 11, 2003, at 14:46:13
> Is this true about SSRIs increasing cortisol levels? This is scary. I listened to the audio clip recommended by Larry Hoover:
>
> http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/ram/anti-1.ram
> and
> http://www.3sistersapothecary.com/ram/anti-2.ramJust to clarify, I didn't recommend them. I haven't had the time to listen to them, yet. My ancient computer couldn't even *do* media files. I just got it to work today. I'll let you know what I think.
> While it is obvious that there are logical errors in this woman's (Tracy Ann Blake's) arguments, and she seems to have vested interests in essential oil sales, I'm still wondering how much truth is in this information.
One opinion seldom counts for much, in my opinion. <irony intended>
> What is everybody's opinion on these speeches? Is she full of "it", or are we in some danger? I think I am in a lot of danger with my depression (when depressed, I'm suicidal), but are the medication risks worth it?Given the conditions you've stated, the drugs are worth the risk. That's when I use drugs.
> The medication doesn't work that well anyway.
If it gets you away from the suicidal ideation.....
>Am I really that much better off with the SSRI, I wonder? Lexapro only works when I smoke on it, so it doesn't seem the Lexapro is helping that much anyway, and the tobacco will kill me eventually. I'm so frustrated.
>
> MBThere is so much trial and error required. It *is* very frustrating.
If you think that nicotine is the "deciding factor", you don't need to smoke to get nicotine. Consider trying one of the nicotine replacement products used by people trying to quit.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 12, 2003, at 9:04:56
In reply to Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer, posted by McPac on August 11, 2003, at 15:03:36
> Hi again Lar!
> Just got back from vacationing.<jealous>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lar, when I brought this up (histamine level went from 129 in October to 186 in late June), the Pfeiffer nurse said, "Well, it's a different season".......that's true, my allergies (like many) often go completely crazy during the Summer months as opposed to the Winter season....so does this give Pfeiffer a valid "excuse" why my histamine went up a lot despite their treatment plan? The bottom line is clear, that the levels went UP, just wondering if that is an acceptable retort on their part...perhaps it's just going to take longer than I had hoped???
It's a possible, and reasonable, confounding variable....exposure to a noxious stimulus. The only way to really answer that is to monitor histamine over a number of seasons, and see if a pattern emerges. What season was it when you were first tested? A re-test in the same season would give you a pretty good answer.
> Also, they just increased my methionine another 500 mg/day and the TMG an add'l 700 mg/day as well (those are both used in lowering histamine, particularly the methionine....take care Lar!!
The net effect is to increase SAMe, and methylation (one-carbon metabolism). That has global impact, not just on histamine. In the end, the question needing answer is "Do you feel better?"
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 12, 2003, at 9:08:48
In reply to Larry Hoover, If you prefer the sledgehammer ...., posted by McPac on August 11, 2003, at 15:13:15
> Lar, got to run something by you.......
>
> Very recently I bought some supps from the Vitamin Shoppe....anyway, because I bought over $40 worth of stuff, I got this free book, "Patient, Heal Thyself" by Jordan Rubin (who owns Garden of Life, the probiotics (and more) company...(they sell Primal Defense, Perfect Food, etc.)..........just finished the book....very interesting.....wondered if you've ever tried Primal Defense (probiotic with homeostatic soil organisms)?.....Homeostatic soil organisms? I haven't a clue what he means by *that*. Probiotics, fine. Especially if your symptoms include digestive disturbances. Eating soil is a relatively common treatment in indigenous populations.
>I'd LOVE to get your take on that book's ideas for various problems, part. mental illness-type problems.....interesting reading, thought-provoking, enjoyable book to read.......anyway, take care Lar!
Well, I can't tell what's in the book, from here.
Lar
Posted by McPac on August 12, 2003, at 12:22:56
In reply to Re: Larry Hoover, (Sean too), Re: Pfeiffer » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on August 12, 2003, at 9:04:56
"What season was it when you were first tested?"
>>>>>>>>>I was tested in mid-October the 1st time (histamine level was 129).......the 2nd time in late June (level was 186).......(my allergies are typically much worse in late June than in October...so perhaps that is a valid excuse on their part?
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