![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by matt66 on February 28, 2003, at 4:35:08
Four years ago Nardil worked for me for three weeks and bust out. I've tried EVERYTHING since without feeling a thing. Every second of each of the +1000 days since the Nardil, I've wished my life away and thought about how different each of my thoughts and actions woulda/coulda been if i wasn't depressed. three weeks out of 21 years and there's no going back. I'll never be happy without feeling like i felt on nardil. not manic, just at peace and comfortable with myself. Anyway, going through these boards, I'm surprised at how side effects can chase people off drugs. I'm a functioning depressive: I'm passing at one of the top 10 liberal arts colleges in the country, i have a job, a good family, even friends back home. And I'll tell you right now without the slightest hesitation: I'd take the rest of my life in a wheelchair if it meant freedom from the depression. I would become abstinent, I would live on a lquid diet, take a vow of silence, whatever. I can't see how people can be responding to a med and back off because of side effects. it just doesnt seem consistent with what I've experienced with depression and my brief liberation. I can't tell you how many times I've relived those three weeks when I popped out and became a person for once. I actually loved myself, something I can't conceive of now. In a panic to get something to work (I've been at college this whole time, and with the added stresses and social pressures) it's been impossible to remain patient and sit on meds. The last year I've finally been able to sit on meds for a month, before that, I was too desperate to wait for something to kick in. Anyway, in my struggle I have had:
- three siezures from being on very high doses
-months at a time of insomnia
-narcolepsy (amidst classes)
-inorgasmia
-gone weeks without shitting
-spent entire days in the bathroom
-lost all college friends I made freshman year when the nardil made me a person. People I once cared about so much look away from me , embarassed by how awkward I make them feel
-self medicated with illegal drugs, cleaning out my bank account, and taking an ER trip when some mushrooms showed me just how much suffering I endure each day. In the panic, it took all five of my family members to hold me down, while I was spitting in their faces and throwing punches
-I bite my gums and pick my nail compulsively until it hurts. once the pain comes i really can't stop myself
-tell my parents regularly that I want to end it
-feel a compulsion to walk in front of moving vehicles
-absurd nausea/vomiting/bloody noses
-gone mute for days at a time
-bedridden and lightheaded from low blood pressure during exam week.And yet, like a mule, I fight through each day, scared of my footsteps, looking forward to bed where I never sleep and have occasional nightmares
My story may not be particulalry unique, and the fact that I've never been hospitalized (besides er visits and 15 ect treatments)and that I'm in college means I'm better off than some. Or am I? When I read about people stopping meds because of side effects, I begin thinking I'm in just a different league. It's like comparing apples and oranges, side effects vs. relief from anxiety/depression Take my balls, all my fingers and toes, just let me feel some difference. I'd take a day of feeling like I did on the nardil for a lifetime of this play-acting I have to put on. I subordinate myself to assholes and idiots because I'm too nervous/doubtful/inarticulate. I've never had a chick ( well, three in three weeks on the nardil). I was at school when the nardil worked, so my whole family doesn't even know who I am, what I'm capable of. Most people I try talking to suggest talk therapy or look at how I can function and pull in decent grades and can't believe there's something wrong there. I would appreciate any advice. I'm not scared of trying anything, including drugs not approved in the US (I have overseas connections-tried manerix, noveril etc.) Nothing helps my anxiety except pot, if I smoke occasionally, which is impossible for me- if i have it i'll smoke it all. I recently tried Nardil again at 90mg (it initially worked at 45mg four years ago) and sat on it for two weeks. my parents came to visit and I was a zombie, they warned my doc, and he basically demanded I get off it. now I'm on seleligine (eldpryl) 50mg, which doc says I'll sit on for three weeks, maybe adding doxepin, before going for a high dose of parnate (don't worry I know about combos). It's the second or third time around for all these meds, this time the logic being that I may not have waited long enough for some of the other drugs to start working first time around. Another question for anyone whose still with me (thanks a bunch!): have you heard/do you believe in signs that a med may be starting to work or that it may be likely to give a paradoxical reaction? I've gotten much worse on some of the meds I've tried and was wondering if this was enough to warrant stopping them, or if each med deserves 4weeks unless my body absolutley can't tolerate it. And as far as good signs, I've had vivid dreams before which doc always says is a good sign (how many times have we heard that one?) and occasionally I become more articulate, but I haven't found these "positive" signs to lead to anything therapuetic or worthwhile in the future. Any tips on drugs, dose, time would be greatly appreciated. 21 year old male, 250pounds, no other medical conditions and it was three weeks the nardil worked for before busting out. The seleligine and parnate i never sat on for over a month. should they be my focus since the nardil seemed to do something, or is there really not a corellation between one maoi busting out and another one sticking it out, in which case where to go? TCA"s again, for longer peiods of time? I have had some other minor reactions to meds (a night of mania on adderall for example) but nothing lasting. Cheers to you who made it to the end- it helped a little typing this.
Posted by babak on February 28, 2003, at 6:45:41
In reply to my story- read this if you must, posted by matt66 on February 28, 2003, at 4:35:08
You said you have tried illicit drugs. I am saying this because it looks as if you have really tried everything and failed. Have you tried opium? I mean opium not morphine or heroine.
It may make you a little anxious but you might as well add something like a large dose Xanax or something similar, as long as this sort of anti-anxiety have at least some short term benefit.You'll get hooked but what the hell? It is better than what you are describing.
If typing your story has helped a little, well therapy might help a little too. It most probably won't help with your depression but it might help your sense of isolation.
Take care
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on February 28, 2003, at 9:39:57
In reply to my story- read this if you must, posted by matt66 on February 28, 2003, at 4:35:08
>Nothing helps my anxiety except pot, if I smoke occasionally, which is impossible for me- if i have it i'll smoke it all.
----------------Curious... have you even taken LSD before? Of all the drugs I've ever taken, nothing can cut through a muddled mind faster and more cleanly than a bit of LSD. I can go from morbid derpression to laughing out loud in 3 hours.
Posted by Jack Smith on February 28, 2003, at 13:00:34
In reply to Re: my story- read this if you must » matt66, posted by Eddie Sylvano on February 28, 2003, at 9:39:57
I ain't no war on drugs zealot, I am actually pretty much for legalization. BUT are you seriously recommending that this kid do LSD? That is extermely irresponsible. Read his story, he freaked out on mushrooms and now you are telling him to do LSD!!!! COME ON NOW.
> Curious... have you even taken LSD before? Of all the drugs I've ever taken, nothing can cut through a muddled mind faster and more cleanly than a bit of LSD. I can go from morbid derpression to laughing out loud in 3 hours.
Posted by Jack Smith on February 28, 2003, at 13:07:46
In reply to my story- read this if you must, posted by matt66 on February 28, 2003, at 4:35:08
What is the longest single medication trial you have had and on what dose? You said that just this year, you have only been able to sit on a med for a month. I know this sounds cliche but you have to give these meds time. The first time I experienced a remission, I had to wait 10 weeks on celexa, 6 of those weeks on 40mg. Patience, I know it sounds hard but you have got to try it.
I am also somewhat confused by your story. You said that you experienced a three week long remission on Nardil right after starting it? I don't want to say that it is impossible but it sounds highly unlikely that Nardil could have caused this so rapidly because it takes at least a few days to start MAOI inhibition and then from there a few more days for there to be significant increases in your neurotransmitters. Also, you say that this was only three weeks long? But you made a whole bunch of friends in this time?
Did you have no response at all from ECT?
I tend to agree with your docs, you have to give these meds a chance. Just a one month trial is not enough and frankly, I can't believe you have given every AD an adequate trial. If you give 25 AD's an adequate trial, that would be fifty months--over four years.
Just try to keep things in perspective and give things some time. Even this last trial of Nardil seems inadequate to me. Only two weeks at 90? Our friend ACE is probably crying.
JACK
Posted by babak on February 28, 2003, at 13:56:06
In reply to Are you seriously recommending LSD » Eddie Sylvano, posted by Jack Smith on February 28, 2003, at 13:00:34
I agree with you Jack. You might as well hand him a loaded gun if you are seriously advising him to take LSD.
I feel guilty now for having brought up the idea of opium. Mind you, who ever is comparing my suggestion of opium to LSD knows jack shit about drugs, legal or illigal.
Posted by justyourlaugh on February 28, 2003, at 14:06:30
In reply to Re: Are you seriously recommending LSD » Jack Smith, posted by babak on February 28, 2003, at 13:56:06
potty mouth-hee hee.
matt-i understand about living with side effects for releif..
i have had sex twice in two years...
i know part of that is depression,part meds.my husband has a sad room mate..
let me know if you find that"sunshine lollipop"pill...
jyl
Posted by Jack Smith on February 28, 2003, at 14:11:45
In reply to Re: Are you seriously recommending LSD » Jack Smith, posted by babak on February 28, 2003, at 13:56:06
You should not feel guilty about your opium suggestion. THere is some clinical evidence that opium could help, at least in the short term. There is none regarding LSD. Moreover, if you read his story, he notes that he had a horrible reaction to a similar drug as LSD, mushrooms. Comparing your suggestion, babak, with EddieSylvano's is ridiculous. Yours was constructive, his was not.
> I agree with you Jack. You might as well hand him a loaded gun if you are seriously advising him to take LSD.
>
> I feel guilty now for having brought up the idea of opium. Mind you, who ever is comparing my suggestion of opium to LSD knows jack shit about drugs, legal or illigal.
>
>
>
>
Posted by Jack Smith on February 28, 2003, at 14:13:02
In reply to Re: Are you seriously recommending LSD » babak, posted by justyourlaugh on February 28, 2003, at 14:06:30
> matt-i understand about living with side effects for releif..
> i have had sex twice in two years...I hope you let your husband go elsewhere for that.
Posted by justyourlaugh on February 28, 2003, at 14:20:23
In reply to Re: Are you seriously recommending LSD » justyourlaugh, posted by Jack Smith on February 28, 2003, at 14:13:02
jack jack jack,
thats not what marriage is?
for you to say that.....
hummmmmmmm i guess go fuc* yourself!!!
just kidding just kidding...
jyl
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on February 28, 2003, at 14:43:31
In reply to Are you seriously recommending LSD » Eddie Sylvano, posted by Jack Smith on February 28, 2003, at 13:00:34
> I ain't no war on drugs zealot, I am actually pretty much for legalization. BUT are you seriously recommending that this kid do LSD? That is extermely irresponsible. Read his story, he freaked out on mushrooms and now you are telling him to do LSD!!!! COME ON NOW.
-----------------I did not recommend that he take LSD. Read my wording. I asked if he ever *had*, because I was curious (and because he *had* taken mushrooms, it seemed more likely). I simply want to hear other people's experiences. For that matter, I have never recommended that anyone take *anything*, because I'm not a doctor. If I've disturbed anyone, I apologize. I will certainly not make mention of illegal drugs again.
People... don't take LSD! I was only sharing my experience, and wondering if I'm alone in such reaction.
aside:
I will note that I feel there is a bias in the scientific community towards certain chemical substances. Many beneficial drugs are derived from ergot preparations, and I feel that the reflexive bias in society and medicine alike is counterproductive to potential pharmaceutical avenues.
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on February 28, 2003, at 15:25:11
In reply to Re: Are you seriously recommending LSD » Jack Smith, posted by babak on February 28, 2003, at 13:56:06
> I agree with you Jack. You might as well hand him a loaded gun if you are seriously advising him to take LSD.
---------------I'm very, very sorry. I didn't think that my post would be taken that way. I should have worded it more carefully. It was wrong of me. I'm going away now...
Posted by jay on March 1, 2003, at 2:45:51
In reply to my story- read this if you must, posted by matt66 on February 28, 2003, at 4:35:08
I feel for you my friend, and I will admit I can also relate to many of your experiences over my 12 or so years of intensive treatment. I've burnt off my eyebrows and drove a knife right through my leg at the worst. I used a potato peeler to shred skin off my face.
An area I am looking into is using combinations of drugs that block specific 5-HT receptors, some atypical drugs, with other *powerhouse* antidepressants. I have found some comfort in the combo of Serzone + Effexor + Zyprexa + Buspar + Benzo + Ritalin + Beta-blocker (this one being once-in-awhile, especially for early-morning awakenings) + Codiene 3x a day (with occasional breaks.) It's a very odd mix, but one that targets unique areas most single or even dual meds don't. I rarely see the type of above combos used. I have also added Pamelor (nortriptyline) to this when I needed an *extra* push.
Problem is, my current doc won't prescribe all these meds to me. I had to 'hop' doctors to get them. I am waiting for a consult with a few excellent psychopharmacologists at Clarke and McMaster Health Science Research Centres. My ex-girlfriend is doing well on a similar combo with one of these pdocs, and has been for over 3 years.
Almost *no* (prescribed) drug is ruled out in treatment, and she can and does use the odd toke or puff of hash for difficult days.There are drug combinations, usually very unique ones even 'liberal' psychiatrists won't try. So, keep plodding along to find an *excellent* psychopharmacologist who is willing to go the extra 100 miles for you.
I am not saying this or any method will help or 'cure' you, but as always, there is SOME kind of relief avaialble, even if it means using some 'illegal' medications. (Which is what pot, coke, LSD, opium or heroin are...medications just as much so as Prozac.)
Jay
Posted by jay on March 1, 2003, at 3:17:51
In reply to Are you seriously recommending LSD » Eddie Sylvano, posted by Jack Smith on February 28, 2003, at 13:00:34
> I ain't no war on drugs zealot, I am actually pretty much for legalization. BUT are you seriously recommending that this kid do LSD? That is extermely irresponsible. Read his story, he freaked out on mushrooms and now you are telling him to do LSD!!!! COME ON NOW.
>I do agree with Jack, mostly around hallucinogenics, that there can be some nasty danger. They are extremely unpredictable which is my biggest worry, very much unlike the usual worry of a 'hangover' or crash from coke or smoking opium or doing heroin. It's your choice of course, and I don't think Jack or myself are trying to instil the silly rhetoric of the *war on drugs* movement. It's just from experience and many others I have known, the drugs I would most likely avoid with having a mental illness is hallucinogenics. It's not even the *scare tactics* about after-effects, but just what I might and have done while on them. See my other post.
I am lucky also to have a family I love, and who loves, cares for me. (Not married..but parents, brother and sister, Niece and Nephews, etc..) It is for them that I try my hardest not to kill or harm myself, because they have gone the extra million miles for me.I am lucky, but this isn't to say anybody else is uncaring or selfish for harming themselves. I am starting to believe this may be a possible evolutionary-biological problem, and that suicide and SI are buried in genetics traced back to the amoeba. These issues have been recorded back as far back as "recorded" history goes. So, maybe using whatever substances or methods to eventually alter this genetic code (or turn on or off genetic predisposition) isn't such a bad thing. I don't believe in Eugenics or that stuff (I *hate* it and am disgusted by it, as it was used, abused by Nazis and shown it's utterly horrid consequences), but individually, I think we have a right to mess with our own genetic material if we wish. (Which I think medications have the possibility, in some way, to do, through mutagenic means or whatever.)
Sorry for the *rant*...it's late. Just IMHO.
Jay
Posted by Eilidh on March 1, 2003, at 7:12:04
In reply to my story- read this if you must, posted by matt66 on February 28, 2003, at 4:35:08
Matt,
Please correct me if I am wrong, but you sound as though you have given up on previous medications due to their side effects or lack of discernable improvement in your mood level. Not totally clear from your post if you have ever percevered with a medication, which is tolerable from a side effects point of view, to it's maximum therapeutic dosage range before regarding it as "no use"? Or has your desperaton to feel mood improvement always led to you giving up after the 3-4 week period?
To answer your question about maoi drugs there is a possibility that one maoi may work where another did not, as can happen with other groups of antidepressants too.
I have found relief from Nardil after 12 years of being as you describe a "functioning depressive". Please use this board, or other, to help support you while you try one, or more drugs, from commencemence through to maximum dosage range suitable for you before you regard it as "no use".( unless side effects necessitate you discontinue beforehand.)
It is often useful if you can have both medication and a talking therapy of some description at the same time. I don't know if this would be possible for you to achieve where you live, or if finances / insurance cover would prohibit it
I do not wish to sound patronising, but please remember that those of us who make use of this board can be side-tracked by issues while attempting to respond to the needs of others. However,at no point does this mean that we regard your specific need for support as less important, just that we get distracted by a comment made along the way. Occaisionally we forget the effect this may have upon the person who asked for assistance / support as we get caught up in attempting to calrify a point for ourselves. Do not let this put you off seeking support as we are all trying to do the same as you, i.e. achieve and maintain better mental health.
Good luck
Eilidh.
Posted by may-b on March 1, 2003, at 10:31:19
In reply to my story- read this if you must, posted by matt66 on February 28, 2003, at 4:35:08
>Another question for anyone whose still with me (thanks a bunch!): have you heard/do you believe in signs that a med may be starting to work or that it may be likely to give a paradoxical reaction? I've gotten much worse on some of the meds I've tried and was wondering if this was enough to warrant stopping them, or if each med deserves 4weeks unless my body absolutley can't tolerate it.
Hi MattSounds like you have had a really long, tough haul. A lot of it [minus illegal drugs] sounds familiar.
As to your question about immediate effects of a drug: when things were at their worst for me, I was prescribed Paxil. This was before the effects of Paxil were well understood. For 8 weeks I had a dreadful time functioning while getting used to the drug and would given it up were it not for the advice from the psychiatrist to press on. Paxil caused me all the horrors it has become famous for, so perhaps I should not have stuck with it... However, it did give me a completely different level of functioning, which I have never been able to get back. I was confident, the anxiety was under control, I had stamina, could speak in public articulately with humour, navigate foreign terrain easily, driving for hundreds of miles -- in short, I was coping better. The weight gain, migraines and flulike dependency on the drug drove me away from it though. A mixed blessing.
> The seleligine and parnate i never sat on for over a month. should they be my focus since the nardil seemed to do something, or is there really not a corellation between one maoi busting out and another one sticking it out, in which case where to go?
I have never tried Nardil, but Parnate did wonders almost immediately (within 3 days). This was the best AD experience in terms of controlling depression, fogginess, and attention that I have ever had. Unfortunately, I had a hypertensive crisis that was mismanaged medically and that scared me away from it. I had no other major side fx from it, and would have stuck to Parnate if I could trust that there would be no other Hypertensive episodes. Parnate's immediate good effects seemed to carry through the time I was on the drug (although insomnia and unshakable fatigue began to be a problem.)
>Cheers to you who made it to the end- it helped a little typing this.Sounds like it might help to keep posting to this group. You are certainly not alone with these experiences. I really hope you find the right medication and can stick with it long enough to get some benefit. I know it isn't easy to stick with it when it makes you feel worse initially.
Hope something in this message helps. Best wishes,
may_b
Posted by beardedlady on March 1, 2003, at 16:48:31
In reply to Are you seriously recommending LSD » Eddie Sylvano, posted by Jack Smith on February 28, 2003, at 13:00:34
I am sure I read an article in the past year on a psychiatrist in California who has been doing research with LSD and depression. She has been very successful, but the government will no longer let her use LSD. And I am certain I have read about other positive uses of LSD.
By the way, I have used LSD and mushrooms and had a terrible time on mushrooms. LSD always made me feel wonderful.
Posted by Questionmark on March 4, 2003, at 0:47:58
In reply to Re: recommending LSD (warning..mention SI) » Jack Smith, posted by jay on March 1, 2003, at 3:17:51
i just wanna say that i thought this post was freaking brilliant. Everything in it-- very wise, in my opinion.
> I do agree with Jack, mostly around hallucinogenics, that there can be some nasty danger. They are extremely unpredictable which is my biggest worry, very much unlike the usual worry of a 'hangover' or crash from coke or smoking opium or doing heroin. It's your choice of course, and I don't think Jack or myself are trying to instil the silly rhetoric of the *war on drugs* movement. It's just from experience and many others I have known, the drugs I would most likely avoid with having a mental illness is hallucinogenics. It's not even the *scare tactics* about after-effects, but just what I might and have done while on them. See my other post.
>
> I am lucky also to have a family I love, and who loves, cares for me. (Not married..but parents, brother and sister, Niece and Nephews, etc..) It is for them that I try my hardest not to kill or harm myself, because they have gone the extra million miles for me.I am lucky, but this isn't to say anybody else is uncaring or selfish for harming themselves. I am starting to believe this may be a possible evolutionary-biological problem, and that suicide and SI are buried in genetics traced back to the amoeba. These issues have been recorded back as far back as "recorded" history goes. So, maybe using whatever substances or methods to eventually alter this genetic code (or turn on or off genetic predisposition) isn't such a bad thing. I don't believe in Eugenics or that stuff (I *hate* it and am disgusted by it, as it was used, abused by Nazis and shown it's utterly horrid consequences), but individually, I think we have a right to mess with our own genetic material if we wish. (Which I think medications have the possibility, in some way, to do, through mutagenic means or whatever.)
>
> Sorry for the *rant*...it's late. Just IMHO.
>
> Jay
Posted by wharfrat on March 4, 2003, at 10:25:06
In reply to LSD for depression/anxiety » Jack Smith, posted by beardedlady on March 1, 2003, at 16:48:31
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violenceor insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
Hunter S. Thompson
Posted by BrittPark on March 4, 2003, at 12:33:48
In reply to LSD for depression/anxiety » Jack Smith, posted by beardedlady on March 1, 2003, at 16:48:31
I attribute the beginning of my recurrent major depression to a bad trip. LSD seems to have the power to more or less permanently reset cognitive and emotional states.
To be more explicit, a friend and I took LSD that we bought in Washington Square Park in June of 1981. We were having a dandy time. We listened to "Blues for Allah" and became fascinated with trajectories of socks, pencils, little pieces of paper thrown across the room. About 3 or 4 hours into the trip my friend went home. Within minutes of his leaving the trip turned into a nightmare for me. I experienced a subject-less terror that lasted a good 8 hours more. When I woke the next morning something had changed in my psyche. From that point on I had a terror of being alone, or at least away from the people I loved.
That confession isn't meant to belittle the possible use of LSD in treating depression/anxiety. In fact I believe my experience supports the use of LSD in psychiatric treatment, precisely because LSD seems to be able to produce permanent effects. Therefore, for example, if someone with depression were treated with a euphoriant of some kind (opioid, stimulant) and given LSD while experiencing the euphoria, their mood might be permanently improved.
The best analogy for LSD I can think of is the slaps one delivers to a recalcitrant old TV set that looses the picture frequently. One slap of the TV makes the picture worse but with persistence some slap will make the picture better.
Britt
Posted by beardedlady on March 4, 2003, at 13:16:15
In reply to Re: LSD for depression/anxiety, posted by BrittPark on March 4, 2003, at 12:33:48
Also, we're talking about therapeutic doses, which are incredibly small and probably don't cause any hallucinations whatsoever. We used to take a quarter hit of blotter, and it would make us zippy, but nothing out of the ordinary happened, I imagine it would be less than that.
I read the article in a magazine last year and think I mentioned it on this site back then, but I can't pinpoint it.
I'm sorry about what happened to you. My husband had a weird experience like that once, but it didn't do any permanent damage. (Unless that's where he got his intense armpit odor. : )>)
beardy : )>
Posted by babak on March 5, 2003, at 5:38:59
In reply to Re: LSD for depression/anxiety » BrittPark, posted by beardedlady on March 4, 2003, at 13:16:15
I think this whole discussion about LSD is second-hand and wishful thinking. It was all tried back in the sixties. No one managed to come up with a way of controlling its effect either by managing the dose or combining it with other drugs. Yes, sure it is a very potent chemical and very crude instrument to initiate increased dynamic in the brain. I have seen people who have come out of it changed permanently for the rest of their lives, some for the better and a lot more for the worse. What is certain is that the odds of making things worse is a lot higher for those with existing mental problem. Any benefit resulting from a “good trip” on LSC for these people tends to be temporarily.
Metaphorically speaking it loosens the screws and thereby facilitates dynamics. If you already have crack in the structure i.e. physical as apposed to psychological, the increased dynamics could turn that crack into a fracture which means you are f***ked. However if it is knot, it could get undone that could give you a whole new perspective on life.
Posted by jesus on March 5, 2003, at 6:36:55
In reply to Re: LSD for depression/anxiety, posted by babak on March 5, 2003, at 5:38:59
LSD is a pretty ambiguous drug...some ppl I know have totally burned out on it, while some found some kind of 'inner-peace' w/ it...though the laws are waaay too strict w/ its regulation, I think anybody who considers to use it therapeutically should remember tim leary's fierce advocation of lsd in the sixties, and the several lives that have been ruined from the ppl who believed him.
This is the end of the thread.
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