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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 11:26:10
In reply to FISH OILS THE NEW GENERATION ANTI-DEPRESSANT, posted by freedom2001 on November 18, 2002, at 21:17:10
Well ?!?!
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn31/pn31p19c.htm
DDT and PCBs in cod liver oil
Recent collaborative studies have been carried out by Greenpeace Research Laboratories at Exeter University (UK) to analyse twenty two samples of fish oil. Seventeen of the samples (mostly cod liver oil) were obtained over the counter, marked as dietary supplements. This is apparently the first time that fish oils from retail outlets have been subject to independent scrutiny.
Twenty one of the samples were found to contain detectable residues of organochlorine pesticides including DDT and lindane, PCBs and hexachlorobenzene (HCB). Highest contamination involved PCBs. DDT was found in nearly all samples [at levels up to 148 µg/litre (parts per billion)] which are all below the limit specified by the US Food and Drug Administration. However, in the UK there are no specific limits set for pesticide residues for fish oils. The FAO Codex Alimentarius, (the international body which establishes maximum residue levels) appears to contain no recommendations for limits on organochlorine pesticides in fish oils, although oils derived from fish and marine mammals are recognised as a commodity group.
Greenpeace say that under certain circumstances, such as for therapeutic purposes, fish oil could contribute significantly to the dietary intake of PCBs and organochlorine pesticides. In addition, since the substances analysed in this research only form part of the possible persistent organochlorine pollutants in fish oil, other chemicals such as chlorinated dioxins, toxaphene, chlordane and heptachlor should be included in future in order to asses the full scope of the problem.MN Jacobs and PA Johnston, Greenpeace Research Laboratories, University of Exeter, EX4 4QE.
Posted by linkadge on November 20, 2002, at 12:19:02
In reply to Does anyone reall give a damn that they contain DD, posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 11:26:10
Oracle,
there are processes which effectivly remove harmful metals and toxins from fish oil. Molecular distillation is one of them. 'Now' brand uses this process. Winterization is another. Buy from a reputable brand and do a little reasearch on their quality controll. Some companies will even give you a statistical analysis of the final product.There are many plant sources of ALA and GLA but virtually none that contain EPA and DHA. As mentioned, it is proposed that some people have an inhibited ability to convert ALA to EPA and DHA.
Some people may not respond to plant Omega 3 sources and respond well to marine sources.
Note that all all mental illness studies involving Omega 3 have been done with fish oil or other marine oils.Another option is omega 3 eggs. By feeding the chickens flax oil, the chicken themselves produce EPA and DHA. EPA and DHA go right to the brain.
Linkadge
Posted by catmint on November 20, 2002, at 14:20:47
In reply to Does anyone reall give a damn that they contain DD, posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 11:26:10
Hi,
I get a brand of fish oil from Nordik Naturals that is *not* cod liver oil but purified deep sea fish oil that has been molecularly distilled. They do have a web sight and I e-mailed them about their testing. They responded promptly, and said they did third party testing and would be willing to send the reports to me. Of course, you just have to trust them I guess.The studies that you have shown us are mainly for cod liver oil. It is my understanding that the good fish oil on the market is from fish bodies, not from cod liver oil.
Your concern is appropriate, since you can't avoid toxins seeing as how industrial waste is dumped into our oceans and lakes at an alarming rate. Did you know that coal burning plants are now dumping over 40 tons of mercury per year into oceans and lakes?
Posted by johnj on November 20, 2002, at 17:00:51
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » johnj, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 10:52:19
Interesting, I never thought of that. I don't know if I could gut it out again, but maybe more DHA might be better?
take care
johnj
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 19:03:12
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on November 20, 2002, at 17:00:51
> Interesting, I never thought of that. I don't know if I could gut it out again, but maybe more DHA might be better?
> take care
> johnjJohn, your descriptions of the effects of meds and supplements strikes a chord with me; we seem to be very similar.
When I try a supplement, and it adversely affects my sleep, I try smaller doses, and occasionally increase them to see if I'm still as susceptible to insomnia or vivid dreams. First and foremost, I need good quality sleep. But also, over time, I seem more resilient and have a greater intellectual capacity. I was totally disabled, once upon a time, but now I can accomplish much more. Not what I once did, but hell, that might be why I got ill.
I don't know about the DHA/EPA balance, really. Even though I am a trained scientist, there's another part of me, apart from the rational-deductive. I trust my intuition. We don't have the phrase 'gut feeling' for nothing.
Posted by freedom2001 on November 21, 2002, at 0:42:26
In reply to Does anyone reall give a damn that they contain DD, posted by oracle on November 20, 2002, at 11:26:10
Posted by oracle on November 21, 2002, at 13:52:32
In reply to You're really pro hemp Oracle, posted by linkadge on November 20, 2002, at 12:19:02
>
> There are many plant sources of ALA and GLA but virtually none that contain EPA and DHA. As mentioned, it is proposed that some people have an inhibited ability to convert ALA to EPA and DHA.EPA's , as I understand it, are essential
fatty acids (EFA). You seem to think it is a specific acid.There are many ordanic sources of EPA's. Hemp is quite high, flax is another, not as high. Flax does have long term storage problem.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 21, 2002, at 14:40:45
In reply to Re: You're really pro hemp Oracle, posted by oracle on November 21, 2002, at 13:52:32
> >
> > There are many plant sources of ALA and GLA but virtually none that contain EPA and DHA. As mentioned, it is proposed that some people have an inhibited ability to convert ALA to EPA and DHA.
>
> EPA's , as I understand it, are essential
> fatty acids (EFA). You seem to think it is a specific acid.
>
> There are many ordanic sources of EPA's. Hemp is quite high, flax is another, not as high. Flax does have long term storage problem.Then you don't understand it. EPA is a specific fatty acid.
EPA is eicosapentaenoic acid.
eicosa is greek for twenty; penta greek for five; en(e) means double bond, or unsaturated; -oic acid means carboxylic acid.
EPA is actually all-cis-delta-5,8,11,14,17-eicosapentaenoic acid.
DHA is the 22-carbon, six-unsaturated, carboxylic acid all-cis-delta-4,7,10,13,16,19-docosahexaenoic acid.
The term EFA (Essential Fatty Acid) has no fixed meaning, but it tends to be a reference to the alpha and gamma isomers of linolenic acid. This term is being redefined through alternative meanings at the present time.
EFAs are all PUFAs (polyunsaturated fatty acids), but not all PUFAs are EFAs.
Posted by oracle on November 21, 2002, at 16:10:05
In reply to Re: You're really pro hemp Oracle, posted by Larry Hoover on November 21, 2002, at 14:40:45
> EFAs are all PUFAs (polyunsaturated fatty acids), but not all PUFAs are EFAs.
Ah! Sorry, I have been confusing the P and F, as in EFA vs EPA. The difference is clear, sorry for my confusion.
Posted by ShelliR on November 21, 2002, at 23:17:01
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 9:30:24
Hi Everybody.
Having newly started Omega-3, I'm amazed and excited at the percentage of posts regarding it on the board. It's way to early to have any clue about its effect on me, but like John, it immediately has affected my sleep. In my case, I'm having a hard time falling asleep. I'm playing around with taking it all before 4pm, still in divided doses.
Also, I was warned that if I was planning to go up to a fairly high dose, I should choose brands with a minimum of vitamin A, to avoid overaccumulation of A in my body.
I just bought Carlson lemon, with no vitamin A or D. Haven't started it yet (want to use up my Yukky Norwegian cherry flavored bottle first). The lady at the local natural apothecary promised me it has absolutely no fish taste; I'll know sometime in a week or so. It's a bit more expensive, but you have to be careful with the comparisons because the concentrations differ so.
Barbara(cat), hope you're still hovering around; it was your success story that got me to finally commit to trying it.
Take care,
Shelli
Posted by freedom2001 on November 22, 2002, at 1:20:44
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake, posted by ShelliR on November 21, 2002, at 23:17:01
> Hi Everybody.
>
> Having newly started Omega-3, I'm amazed and excited at the percentage of posts regarding it on the board. It's way to early to have any clue about its effect on me, but like John, it immediately has affected my sleep. In my case, I'm having a hard time falling asleep. I'm playing around with taking it all before 4pm, still in divided doses.
>
> Also, I was warned that if I was planning to go up to a fairly high dose, I should choose brands with a minimum of vitamin A, to avoid overaccumulation of A in my body.
>
> I just bought Carlson lemon, with no vitamin A or D. Haven't started it yet (want to use up my Yukky Norwegian cherry flavored bottle first). The lady at the local natural apothecary promised me it has absolutely no fish taste; I'll know sometime in a week or so. It's a bit more expensive, but you have to be careful with the comparisons because the concentrations differ so.
>
> Barbara(cat), hope you're still hovering around; it was your success story that got me to finally commit to trying it.
>
> Take care,
>
> Shelli
>
>Hi, I'm taking 5000mg of EPA and DHA fish oils high concentration daily. One capsule contains 500mg EPA and 310 mg DHA.
My depression has lifted completely and I think it helps somewhat with my OCD too.
Regards and God bless.
Posted by ShelliR on November 22, 2002, at 22:53:05
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake » ShelliR, posted by freedom2001 on November 22, 2002, at 1:20:44
Two questions:
How depressed were you before you started?
How long did it take your depression to lift?
I am also in my sixth week of taking a combination of homeopathic remedies "prescribed" by my doctor, and I can already tell that I have gotten some relief from my depression. It's going to be hard for me to separate effects from starting two treatments so close together, but right now I just want to feel good.
Shelli
Posted by freedom2001 on November 26, 2002, at 2:11:09
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake » freedom2001, posted by ShelliR on November 22, 2002, at 22:53:05
> Two questions:
>
> How depressed were you before you started?I have OCD+ depression since age 14.
Started fish oil not long ago.
>
> How long did it take your depression to lift?It took about 2 weeks for the fish oils to lift my depression. 90% recovered for depression.
>
> I am also in my sixth week of taking a combination of homeopathic remedies "prescribed" by my doctor, and I can already tell that I have gotten some relief from my depression. It's going to be hard for me to separate effects from starting two treatments so close together, but right now I just want to feel good.
>
> Shelli
Posted by bluedog on November 26, 2002, at 21:29:39
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep, posted by Larry Hoover on November 20, 2002, at 19:03:12
OK. I've been taking fish oil supplements for just over a week now and there is absolutely no doubt that my dreaming has become extremely violent and vivid and my sleep has become disturbed.
I started out taking one 1000mg tablet per day (contains omega-3 marine triglycerides 300mg, EPA 180mg and DHA 120mg). Yesterday I upped my dose to 2 tablets per day so I am not taking a huge amount of fish oil by any standards.
Can anyone tell me how long I can expect this disturbed sleep pattern to last before it settles down? I don't want to stop taking the fish oil because I have definitely been convinced of the benefits of fish oil through this message board. What's more I perceive the disturbed sleep and dreaming as the fish oil somehow having a therapeutic or healing effect on my system and my brain is adapting to suddenly being given the food it desires to function properly. I simply want to know how long it will be for these effects to pass.
Can you draw an analogy to a person who has been lost in the desert in the blazing sun and has become delusional through dehydration. When this person first takes a glass of water they are likely to throw it up. Further, when they are able to drink water again and keep it down they are likely to suffer all sorts of painful side effects as the body and it's organs rehydrate and starts the repair process?
Posted by colin wallace on November 27, 2002, at 6:56:29
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep, posted by bluedog on November 26, 2002, at 21:29:39
>>Can you draw an analogy to a person who has been lost in the desert in the blazing sun and has become delusional through dehydration. When this person first takes a glass of water they are likely to throw it up. Further, when they are able to drink water again and keep it down they are likely to suffer all sorts of painful side effects as the body and it's organs rehydrate and starts the repair process?
Hi,Fish oil screwed up my sleep in much the same fashion- at the same dosage- and never let up. Guess I died of dehydration!
Posted by johnj on November 27, 2002, at 9:25:50
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » bluedog, posted by colin wallace on November 27, 2002, at 6:56:29
Hey Colin,
A post to you got lost in the shuffle awhile back so I thought I would see how things are going with you. Is the lamactal still working well?
I tried lexapro and it made me so anxious even at a low dose. I was sleep all of the time and generally out of it. I do know for a fact now that the TCA messes me up when I excercise. By experimenting I get the side effects listed on the prescription. There is even a warning about over heating causing dizziness, etc. So, I have decided that I will try some breathing excercises/yoga stuff over the next few months and demand that my TCA be lowered and maybe stopped. My theory is that if I can excercise I can do at least as good as the TCA. Don't know what else to try. Hope things are going well. take care
johnj
Posted by johnj on November 27, 2002, at 9:27:16
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep, posted by bluedog on November 26, 2002, at 21:29:39
See my post to Colin, but I know he had the same sleep disturbance as I did on fish oil. I had to get off it. What other meds do you take? take care
johnj
Posted by bluedog on November 28, 2002, at 4:04:35
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » bluedog, posted by johnj on November 27, 2002, at 9:27:16
> See my post to Colin, but I know he had the same sleep disturbance as I did on fish oil. I had to get off it. What other meds do you take? take care
> johnjMy other meds at the moment are 20mg generic Prozac in the morning and 2.5mg Diazepam twice daily (once at night and once in the morning)
thanks again
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 28, 2002, at 8:05:00
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » bluedog, posted by johnj on November 27, 2002, at 9:27:16
> See my post to Colin, but I know he had the same sleep disturbance as I did on fish oil. I had to get off it. What other meds do you take? take care
> johnjJust wanted to let you know that I can't figure out how fish oil could do that; nothing in Medline gives a clue, and even google is silent. I'll let you know if I come up with anything.
Lar
Posted by colin wallace on November 29, 2002, at 7:06:10
In reply to My sleep was also screwed up you are not alone » colin wallace, posted by johnj on November 27, 2002, at 9:25:50
> Hey Colin,
>
> A post to you got lost in the shuffle awhile back so I thought I would see how things are going with you. Is the lamactal still working well?
>
> I tried lexapro and it made me so anxious even at a low dose. I was sleep all of the time and generally out of it. I do know for a fact now that the TCA messes me up when I excercise. By experimenting I get the side effects listed on the prescription. There is even a warning about over heating causing dizziness, etc. So, I have decided that I will try some breathing excercises/yoga stuff over the next few months and demand that my TCA be lowered and maybe stopped. My theory is that if I can excercise I can do at least as good as the TCA. Don't know what else to try. Hope things are going well. take care
> johnjHi there John,
Did I miss a post somewhere? Can't get those yellow 'new' flags working consistently-pain in the ass.
Yeah, it doesn't seem as if you're cut out for TCA's does it?! I really hated that 'egg-whisked'
brain feeling for hours after exercise on TCA's too.
My anxiety went through the roof on SSRI's early on aswell- I was nervous and jittery as hell on Cipramil, and only lasted a few weeks on it.I 'toughed out' around 4 weeks of hugely increased anxiety on Zoloft, before it began to have any therapeutic effect.Difference between us is that I wasn't working, and could never have put up with that level of anxiety if I had been.Did you try upping your benzo. at all?
I've always liked the idea of yoga, and I got some great relief for a while with acupuncture- well worth a try.
The Lamictal experience is going well- much better than any AD I've ever tried, as it's very unobtrusive and doesn't even feel like an AD.
No probs. exercising with it, and it's definitely been beneficial to my alertness and energy levels.In fact, it's achieved in 3 months far more than I've been able to achieve in 3 years.Have you considered it at all? Wouldn't interfere with exercise or work, I'm sure.
Weather here has scuppered my biking for the time being, but still use an indoor trainer to keep ticking over.
Anyway, keep plugging away with the med. Russian roulette, and hopefully you'll hit upon something suitable soon enough.
All the best,Col.
Posted by ZeeZee on November 30, 2002, at 9:26:36
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep, posted by bluedog on November 26, 2002, at 21:29:39
I posted my problem with fish oil last spring. After taking one pill of the Omega Brite brand I began having rushes, or surges of adrenalin. I had fractured sleep that night. The next day with taking all 3 pills as recommended, the surges were worse and I did not sleep at all. Most of those who responded to me attempted to convince me that it wasn't the fish oil and that this experience was an anomoly. Someone finally responded with the same s/e's and data that fish oil increases serotonin, (something I'm very sensitive too and which increases my anxiety and causes insomnia). So, trust your experience. We all respond differently. By the way all of this stopped as soon as I ceased using the stuff.
Good Luck.
Posted by bluedog on December 1, 2002, at 8:39:39
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » bluedog, posted by ZeeZee on November 30, 2002, at 9:26:36
Thanks for sharing your experience. I'll let you know in a couple of weeks whether my symptoms persist and I will then have no choice but to stop the supplements like you had to.
bluedog
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on January 21, 2003, at 17:17:20
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep » ZeeZee, posted by bluedog on December 1, 2002, at 8:39:39
This board has many entries about insomnia in people on fish oil.This is not a problem I have seen described elsewhere.Perhaps those who are on omega-3 might let us know how it affects their sleep.Any other negative aspects of omega-3 can be described too as we have rather a lot of positive reports on the board recently and we don`t want to get carried away.
Posted by noa on January 21, 2003, at 18:54:41
In reply to Re: Fish oil really screwed up my sleep, posted by Ed O`Flaherty on January 21, 2003, at 17:17:20
No sleep problems, but I do notice increased motor restlessness, at certain times of the day, which seem to coincide with my adderall wearing off. Like in the evenings. I have alot of motor restlessness, but my head feels sleepy. I can't tell if the restlessness is a kind of attempt to keep stimulation coming into the brain so I won't fall asleep. I think it does have that aspect to it, but I suspect it would be there even when I am not feeling sleepy-"headed".
I am going to talk to my pdoc about this--I think it is possible that the fish oil is potentiating the serotonergic effects of the effexor, and maybe a bit too much.
Otherwise, I am satisfied with the fish oil.
Posted by SLS on January 22, 2003, at 7:36:30
In reply to Re: Inuit omega-3 intake » freedom2001, posted by ShelliR on November 22, 2002, at 22:53:05
> I am also in my sixth week of taking a combination of homeopathic remedies "prescribed" by my doctor, and I can already tell that I have gotten some relief from my depression.
Hi Shelli.What kind of stuff are you taking?
- Scott
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