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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by bluedog on November 19, 2002, at 9:56:09
I have posted this in PB and Not PSB because I believe this post relates to diet and and supplements with vitamins and anti-oxidants and it appears that these topics are usually discussed on PB.
Heres a link to a thought provoking article about the so called "french paradox". This article challenges the currently accepted explanations for the french paradox and thereby also challenges my personal beliefs about my current anti-oxidant and vitamin regime.
see http://www.redflagsweekly.com/kendrick/2002_nov14.html
The french parodox was a term coined to describe the apparent contradiction between the consumption of high levels of so called "Bad Foods" for coronary heart disease (CHD) and the claimed low rate of CHD in France.
This article argues that it's not WHAT you eat so much as HOW you eat that really matters. My first thoughts about this article were if conventional wisdom explaining the french paradox can be challenged in relation to CHD, why not extrapolate the arguments and apply the same arguments to depression and other mental illnesses that have been linked to diet to some degree.
I have not done any further research myself but I wonder if there is also a french paradox in relation to rates of depression.
Food for Thought
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 10:29:00
In reply to The truth about the french paradox?, posted by bluedog on November 19, 2002, at 9:56:09
http://www.redflagsweekly.com/kendrick/2002_nov14.html
>
> The french parodox was a term coined to describe the apparent contradiction between the consumption of high levels of so called "Bad Foods" for coronary heart disease (CHD) and the claimed low rate of CHD in France.
>
> This article argues that it's not WHAT you eat so much as HOW you eat that really matters. My first thoughts about this article were if conventional wisdom explaining the french paradox can be challenged in relation to CHD, why not extrapolate the arguments and apply the same arguments to depression and other mental illnesses that have been linked to diet to some degree.A fascinating, and very well-written article. (I review scientific literature for a living.) Thanks.
> I have not done any further research myself but I wonder if there is also a french paradox in relation to rates of depression.
>
> Food for ThoughtUnfortunately, the French have a higher incidence of depression (4.5%, similar to Germany, Canada, and New Zealand) than even the U.S. (3%).
Posted by bluedog on November 19, 2002, at 11:27:47
In reply to Re: The truth about the french paradox?, posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 10:29:00
>
> Unfortunately, the French have a higher incidence of depression (4.5%, similar to Germany, Canada, and New Zealand) than even the U.S. (3%).
>Larry
Do citizens in the US really have lower rates of depression than the French and the other countries you mentioned? Or do they have lower REPORTED rates of depression?
Also, how do you explain the following quote?
"In fact, 30 years of research have shown that depression is a good PREDICTOR of heart disease AND poor survival after a heart attack (depression as a REACTION to heart disease was separated from the analysis)"
I lifted this quote from the following article
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0022.htm.
Based on the the depression figures you quoted, the French rates of depression should predict a higher rate of heart disease in France than in the US. Of course we know that the opposite is the case.
Another example of the French Paradox in action!!
By the way, based on the above linked article and by way of reverse logic, given the rates of depression you quoted, is it the case that US citizens eat quite a bit more fish than citizens in France, Germany, Canada and New Zealand?The mind boggles!!... and the plot Thickens!!!
Posted by bluedog on November 19, 2002, at 11:45:14
In reply to Re: The truth about the french paradox?, posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 10:29:00
Sorry, I forget to add my conclusion that it appears that we should all be eating our daily fish but we should ensure that we are relaxed when we eat this fish. This way we will be able to minimise both depression AND heart disease!!
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 13:56:03
In reply to Re: The truth about the french paradox? » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on November 19, 2002, at 11:27:47
> >
> > Unfortunately, the French have a higher incidence of depression (4.5%, similar to Germany, Canada, and New Zealand) than even the U.S. (3%).
> >
>
> Larry
>
> Do citizens in the US really have lower rates of depression than the French and the other countries you mentioned? Or do they have lower REPORTED rates of depression?A-hah! You are *thinking* when you read a reported factoid. Indeed, that is one of the limitations of the data I presented. If you go to www.thelancet.com, and input omega-3 as a search term (you will need to register), you'll find a paper relating incidence of depression to fish consumption. There's a neat little graph of data from different countries. Japan's incidence is less than 0.2%.
>
> Also, how do you explain the following quote?
>
> "In fact, 30 years of research have shown that depression is a good PREDICTOR of heart disease AND poor survival after a heart attack (depression as a REACTION to heart disease was separated from the analysis)"One word: homocysteine. Oxidative stress (a result of any kind of stress) causes homocysteine to build up in the blood. Do a search on TMG, in this group, and you'll come up with some information I provided earlier.
> I lifted this quote from the following article
>
> http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0022.htm.
>
> Based on the the depression figures you quoted, the French rates of depression should predict a higher rate of heart disease in France than in the US. Of course we know that the opposite is the case.
>
> Another example of the French Paradox in action!!Absolutely. And, the article which started this thread presents the best hypothesis I've yet heard for the French paradox.
>
> By the way, based on the above linked article and by way of reverse logic, given the rates of depression you quoted, is it the case that US citizens eat quite a bit more fish than citizens in France, Germany, Canada and New Zealand?
>
> The mind boggles!!... and the plot Thickens!!!Go to that Lancet article, and you can see for yourself. The plots are fish consumption v. incidence of depression.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 13:57:16
In reply to Re: The truth about the french paradox? » Larry Hoover, posted by bluedog on November 19, 2002, at 11:45:14
> Sorry, I forget to add my conclusion that it appears that we should all be eating our daily fish but we should ensure that we are relaxed when we eat this fish. This way we will be able to minimise both depression AND heart disease!!
And, to tie in another thread, you should marinate that fish (and perhaps yourself) in alcohol, prior to consumption. ;-)
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 14:23:51
In reply to Re: The truth about the french paradox?, posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 13:56:03
> One word: homocysteine. Oxidative stress (a result of any kind of stress) causes homocysteine to build up in the blood. Do a search on TMG, in this group, and you'll come up with some information I provided earlier.
Aaak! Search only works on the first six months of the year.
There is a cyclical biochemical process which involves sulphur-bearing amino acids. Dietary or reconstituted methionine is reacted with adenosine to form the methyl-donor S-adenosyl methionine (SAMe). The S just tells you that the adenosine is attached to the sulphur atom.
SAMe is an essential component in a host of essential biochemical processes, including the synthesis of neurotranmsitters. After SAMe gives up its methyl group, the adenosine is removed, and you end up with homocysteine. Homocysteine is recycled, via enzymes that employ the co-enzyme B-vitamins folate and B-12. The net effect is to take a methyl group from B-12, and stick it back onto homocysteine, giving you methionine all over again.
The problems arise when your body goes into a stressful period. Homocysteine is poorly recycled, and the buildup of homocysteine damages the heart and arteries, promoting atherosclerosis. That is one of the reasons that depressives are advised to supplement with B-vitamins.
There is also an alternative pathway that is activated by consumption of trimethylglycine (TMG, which also goes by it's archaic name, betaine (meaning amino acid from Beta, latin for beets)). TMG and homocysteine, with the enzyme betaine-homocysteine methyltransferase, gives you methionine and dimethylglycine (DMG). DMG can go on to promote other beneficial thingies, too.
The stress also interferes with glutathione synthesis, because the trans-sulfuration pathway is messed with, but that's a whole 'nother story. Anyway, to protect glutathione, alpha lipoic acid is a good idea. 200 mg/day ought to do it.
Lar
Posted by johnj on November 19, 2002, at 16:06:32
In reply to Re: The truth about the french paradox?, posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 13:56:03
I have lived and worked in Japan for 5 years in the past. Mental health care is atrocious. It is like the 1950's in the US. A male would never be encouraged to seek treatment for depression or anxiety and would most likely self medicate with alcohol. My wife had a friend who had horrible depression after pregnancy and they did absolutely nothing for her, but medicate her to a stupor. Also, the young generation does not eat fish like the older generation. I would liken the statistics of mood orders to be about as accurate as the ssri stats and sexual dysfunction. In other words, not accurate at all. I have always wondered when they say soy is a reason Japanese women have less menopausal problems if it is the soy or the way society does not allow women to complain. Numbers are manipulated so easy.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 16:39:21
In reply to one thing about Japan » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on November 19, 2002, at 16:06:32
> I have lived and worked in Japan for 5 years in the past. Mental health care is atrocious. It is like the 1950's in the US. A male would never be encouraged to seek treatment for depression or anxiety and would most likely self medicate with alcohol. My wife had a friend who had horrible depression after pregnancy and they did absolutely nothing for her, but medicate her to a stupor. Also, the young generation does not eat fish like the older generation. I would liken the statistics of mood orders to be about as accurate as the ssri stats and sexual dysfunction. In other words, not accurate at all. I have always wondered when they say soy is a reason Japanese women have less menopausal problems if it is the soy or the way society does not allow women to complain. Numbers are manipulated so easy.
As you say. For some reason, the authors of the report I was referring to also did the fish v. depression analyis, only excluding data from Japan, and the correlation was still quite robust.
"The data on the annual prevalence of major depression reported by the Ministry of Welfare in Japan included 130 000 individuals, but did not use structured instruments for diagnosis or randomised population-sampling methods. However, exclusion of these Japanese data did not significantly affect the correlation analysis (r=0·77, p<0·03). "
Posted by johnj on November 19, 2002, at 16:49:54
In reply to Re: one thing about Japan, posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 16:39:21
That is about a 3.7% for major depression. No way that is correct. But, I understand what you mean about it being excluded from the study.
Posted by bluedog on November 19, 2002, at 20:56:24
In reply to Re: The truth about the french paradox?, posted by Larry Hoover on November 19, 2002, at 13:56:03
> >
> > By the way, based on the above linked article and by way of reverse logic, given the rates of depression you quoted, is it the case that US citizens eat quite a bit more fish than citizens in France, Germany, Canada and New Zealand?
> >
> > The mind boggles!!... and the plot Thickens!!!
>
> Go to that Lancet article, and you can see for yourself. The plots are fish consumption v. incidence of depression.
Hmmm. I've had a look at the article and I think I see another paradox. Rather than the French paradox we now have the USA PARADOX. In other words despite eating on average LESS fish than the the French USA citizens actually have lower rates of depression than the French.Perhaps people enjoy eating their fish more in the USA than in France? (LOL)
On a more serious note looking at the evidence I believe even more strongly now that there is a serious problem with the measurement and reporting of the rates of depression in the USA. My opinion is that, just like in Japan, there is a greater social stigma attached to mental illness in the USA and this stodgier attitude probably means that sufferers of depression are less likely to seek treatment.
On the other hand Europeans (and particularly the French but NOT the British) are generally viewed as being more emotional than Americans (witness two men hugging or kissing in public when they greet eachother without fearing that everyone will consider them gay).
The British, just like the Americans are more uptight about emotional displays. In the article that I used to start this thread it points out that the French have a higher rate of consumption for anxiolytic drugs than the British and I think that my theory could account for the higher use.
Just my humble opinion
Posted by IsoM on November 20, 2002, at 3:13:05
In reply to Re: one thing about Japan » Larry Hoover, posted by johnj on November 19, 2002, at 16:49:54
It's seems that Japanese women really don't have many menopause problems, John, whther they're allowed to complain or not. Talking with Japanese women over here, they don't have words for some of the more common irks like hot flashes.
I'm not sure adding soy supplements or isoflavones when one reaches menopause is as beneficial as eating soy all one's life. I've eaten soy for over thirty years & have never noticed any menopause problems at all - nothing, not even the little things that are taken for granted like drying skin & hair or any larger problems either. Just my theory that it has to be part of a long term diet & not a quick fix but have little written evidence to back it up.
Posted by johnj on November 20, 2002, at 9:31:30
In reply to Re: Japanese women, soy and menopause » johnj, posted by IsoM on November 20, 2002, at 3:13:05
Hi Iso,
I have actually had the opposite experience with the Japanese women I know and my wife who is Japanese. My wife is perimenopausal. She takes prempro because she was to the point where she could not study and would cry for no reason. she has no history of any type of mood disorders. Her sister had issues for many years due to menopause, but her mother had her periods until 58! It hurt like hell to watch her suffer. We found a great female doctor at the university where she just graduated last May (had to put that in since I am proud of her:).) She prescribed the pill and it made her so naseauated which we discovered later that her younger sister had the same reaction (she lives in the States too). Well, the prempro has done wonders. She was able to finish school with no problem. I know HRT is a hot subject right now, but believe me we talked to a specialist and to be frank, my wife would not be able to carry on a normal life without the HRT.Back to the original topic, her two friends back in Japan are having the same trouble right now too, but the education on what is happeing seems so watered down. One is going to have a hysterectomy and the other just suffers because the docs don't do anything. I was most suprised at how their skin changed in such a short amount of time(2 years). My wife comes from an island that has the oldest living people in Japan. They all come from an island in or around Okinawa.
When I worked for a large Japanese company in Ohio and personally took care of over 100 families from Japan I saw the same menopausal problems. We had a center that helped the women by providing interpreters and all the same symptoms I read about over the net were occurring there too.
Her best friend back in Ohio is in her early fifties and had hot flashes, but she didn't know what to call them when she had them. She is from mainland Japan.
My wife has no hot flash problems. I have learned some about menopause, but all of the different terms the docs throw around confuse the heck out of me!
My wife eats a die hard Japanese diet. We eat tofu everyday with our miso soup. She also drinks soy milk and likes tofu with a little ginger and soy sauce. If the isoflavanoids do help maybe my wife is in the minority. But again, she has never had any hot flashes so maybe she is getting some type of protection that she wouldn't have if she didn't eat tofu at all. We spent last night running around and trying to find a face cream because her skin has become drier, but she has had these problems before and is probably just coincidence.
I too think it is a long term diet change, but it just didn't seem to matter much to my wife.
Take care.
johnj
Posted by IsoM on November 20, 2002, at 15:47:13
In reply to Re: Japanese women, soy and menopause » IsoM, posted by johnj on November 20, 2002, at 9:31:30
Thanks for telling me this, John. It's not something I'd heard before, but the fact that you have had far more contact with Japanese people than I have would say that your view is probably much more accurate.
I have no sisters so can't judge menopausal symptoms there but my Mom sure had a lot of problems & so did my aunts & some of my cousins (that I know of). Maybe I even get too much soy (so to speak) as I get mine mainly from soy flour in my baking & from whole soy beans in foods I make. The isoflavone levels are quite high. I did develop hypothyroidism but I'm not sure if soy is the only culprit as my Mom eats no soy & she developed it too. Seeing I'm saturated with DDT & it's an endocrine disruptor, it may be responsible.
When I was at university a few years ago, I was too busy to make my own bread & do much cooking & noticed my skin started getting drier. Not sure if it was strictly the lack of soy but when I increased it again, the dry skin disappeared. Individual needs may vary among women & what other foods they eat or from what other xeno-sources of estrogen they're exposed to in the environment.
I had severe endometriosis (another DDT effect) & had everything removed except one ovary in '86. That one stopped working for a couple months after the operation (trauma), & I plunged briefly but suddenly into menopause then. Not a fun occurrence so my sympathy for women suffering is strong.
I make my own face cream & others have started asking me if I'd make it for them too. It really is a ointment as I don't know what to use to emulsify it to make a lotion. After I wash my face (or shower when I put it on my legs), I leave my skin slightly wet & put a small amount on my fingers & spread it very thinly on my wet skin. It's wonderful as it's not at all sticky, clammy, & you can't even feel it afterwards when all the water dries, but the skin is left soft & dewy.
If your wife is interested, email me at isomorphix at hotmail dot com & I'll tell you how to make it. It's simple.
This is the end of the thread.
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