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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by utopizen on November 15, 2002, at 8:57:01
I can't take Benadryl, it causes me horrid psychosis-like thoughts running rampant in my brain while I try to sleep.
Since Benadryl is the only OTC sleep aid (yeah, what's up with that, FDA?) besides chlomipramazine or whatever that yellow 12 hr pill is that doesn't do anything, I'll need to ask for a sleep aid.
I have anxiety and ADD. Anxiety keeps me from sleeping when I want to as it is, but then ADD requires me to take Adderall or Dex (I switch back and forth) which causes me to be up when I want to sleep. Problem is that I'm in college and have 9-12n classes and afternoon community service everyday, so my only studying time is during the last few hours of the day.
So I don't have the luxury of taking my last dose before 6pm. I need to dose my Adderall at 9am, then 5PM.
Is Ambien a good call to take for me? The military uses it on Air Force pilots-- all the pilots are required to take Dexedrine 10mg during flights over Afganistan-Iraq patrols, and then they take Ambien to come down to sleep at the base. Yeah, by required, I mean the consent form says "I understand that by not taking this I can be denied flight missions."
So is Ambien okay to take on a regular basis? What about others, like Sonata? Will I get addicted to it? I just want to be able to sleep normally so I'm not tired the next day. My circadian rythms aren't helping either, since they energize me between 7pm-1am since I'm 19 and it doesn't get normalized until around 23 years of age.
Posted by JonW on November 15, 2002, at 10:37:45
In reply to Sleeping pill?, posted by utopizen on November 15, 2002, at 8:57:01
Hi utopizen,
I like Ambien a lot. I fall to sleep easily and wake up without a hangover like feeling or anything. I've taken it for months and have stopped it here and there without experiencing any withdrawal symptoms. You're not supposed to take more than 10mg, but many pdocs prescribe more than that. So if 10mg doesn't do the trick, you might want to try 20mg. I recommend taking it and going right to bed because if I don't it seems more difficult to fall to sleep.
Pleasant dreams,
Jonp.s. I hear it's not that great for ADD, but you might want to try Provigil just in case it works as it is easier to fall to sleep on.
Posted by utopizen on November 15, 2002, at 10:57:54
In reply to Re: Sleeping pill?, posted by JonW on November 15, 2002, at 10:37:45
I actually asked my p-doc about Provigil and ADD, saying I knew the clinical trials found it ineffective but I was willing to give it a shot. Oddly, he's actually more comfortable with Adderall of all things. Must be pretty confident in my non-abuse.
Anyway, I would need a sleeping pill anyway, because my circadian rythms don't get me into sleeping until 1 or later anyway, and it's also nice because I'm a light sleeper and my roommate sometimes has the TV on in the common room of my dorm (which is a loft setup without a door).
I took a Klonopin yesterday for a nap and felt so refreshed four hours after going to sleep it was remarkable. I read someone on the net saying Klonopin disrupts 5th wave sleep, which is the part that refreshes you into feeling rested. Well, maybe it doesn't for me, because I felt like a million dollars after that nap.
My friend's father is a p-doc, and gives her Klonopin for anxiety and sleeping. She's told to take one .5 for anxiety and 2 .5 for when she wants to use it to sleep. I wish my doctor was that cool. Honestly, i'm well aware of Klonopin's habituation potential, but my p-doc just has to one accept that I am not responding to Effexor or anything else he can give me.
And by the way, if anyone can give me some insight over my tic issue and how it might relate to anxiety, please let me know. Dr. Sachs (s/p) of Awakenings/L-Dopa fame wrote a book on Dilantin called Nerves in Collission. His theory is that many people have benign or subtle forms of seizures that result from an electrical regulation flaw, correctly with Dilantin.
Since I sometimes get a shoulder-shrugging tic now and then, I wonder about this. My p-doc didn't know what to make of it, and said if it wasn't bothering me there's nothing to worry about, and if it was more severe, he'd just have to refer me to a neurologist. I'm not bothered by it, but I'm starting to see how it can connect to other issues, like anxiety, restlessness, fatigue, and cold hands and feet. In fact what really confirmed my theory is reading a Dilantin clinical abstracts collection that mentioned Dilantin normalizing patients who had cold or hot hands and feet-- my mom and I both have cold hands and feet, it's a circulation thing. I even have crow's feet on my ankle now, and I'm just 19. My dermatologist said it was a sign of aging.
Posted by utopizen on November 15, 2002, at 10:58:00
In reply to Re: Sleeping pill?, posted by JonW on November 15, 2002, at 10:37:45
I actually asked my p-doc about Provigil and ADD, saying I knew the clinical trials found it ineffective but I was willing to give it a shot. Oddly, he's actually more comfortable with Adderall of all things. Must be pretty confident in my non-abuse.
Anyway, I would need a sleeping pill anyway, because my circadian rythms don't get me into sleeping until 1 or later anyway, and it's also nice because I'm a light sleeper and my roommate sometimes has the TV on in the common room of my dorm (which is a loft setup without a door).
I took a Klonopin yesterday for a nap and felt so refreshed four hours after going to sleep it was remarkable. I read someone on the net saying Klonopin disrupts 5th wave sleep, which is the part that refreshes you into feeling rested. Well, maybe it doesn't for me, because I felt like a million dollars after that nap.
My friend's father is a p-doc, and gives her Klonopin for anxiety and sleeping. She's told to take one .5 for anxiety and 2 .5 for when she wants to use it to sleep. I wish my doctor was that cool. Honestly, i'm well aware of Klonopin's habituation potential, but my p-doc just has to one accept that I am not responding to Effexor or anything else he can give me.
And by the way, if anyone can give me some insight over my tic issue and how it might relate to anxiety, please let me know. Dr. Sachs (s/p) of Awakenings/L-Dopa fame wrote a book on Dilantin called Nerves in Collission. His theory is that many people have benign or subtle forms of seizures that result from an electrical regulation flaw, correctly with Dilantin.
Since I sometimes get a shoulder-shrugging tic now and then, I wonder about this. My p-doc didn't know what to make of it, and said if it wasn't bothering me there's nothing to worry about, and if it was more severe, he'd just have to refer me to a neurologist. I'm not bothered by it, but I'm starting to see how it can connect to other issues, like anxiety, restlessness, fatigue, and cold hands and feet. In fact what really confirmed my theory is reading a Dilantin clinical abstracts collection that mentioned Dilantin normalizing patients who had cold or hot hands and feet-- my mom and I both have cold hands and feet, it's a circulation thing. I even have crow's feet on my ankle now, and I'm just 19. My dermatologist said it was a sign of aging.
Posted by glenn on November 15, 2002, at 11:32:05
In reply to Sleeping pill?, posted by utopizen on November 15, 2002, at 8:57:01
Hi,
I can only tell you about the one myself {and my mother )use, zopiclone, I beleive it is called imovane in the US.
I use it as needed and it is excellent, no dopeyness before or after, I use the lowest dose, 3.5 mg which gives me 4-5 hours good sleep and sometimes I can doze after it wears off. The most I have used it is 4 nights in a row and it kept on working, I now use it once or twice a week. My mother has used it for 5 years in a similar fashion and it works as well for her.
No interactions with my other meds as far as I can see and no reaction after stopping.
Hope this helps.
Glenn
Posted by utopizen on November 15, 2002, at 11:42:46
In reply to Re: Sleeping pill? » utopizen, posted by glenn on November 15, 2002, at 11:32:05
wow. My problem isn't too severe, it's to the point Benadryl is fine for it, if it weren't for the psychotic feeling I get from Benadryl.
I just need something to prod me into sleeping, then I can zonk out for a solid 9 hours if I want to. It would be nice though to make me sleep a little deeper to avoid the ocassional awakening my roommate may cause when he doesn't feel like sleeping that night, but I'm not going to select a med over that.
So all sleeping pills like Ambien, etc., they're like 40 minutes to work? Klonopin takes that long for me, like 20-40 minutes. In 40 minutes I'm defnitely ready to fall down. Um, speaking of which, what is the benefit to taking a non-benzo over Klonopin for sleeping purposes? I doubt I'd have addiction problems if I just used to go to sleep. But if I can feel the same refreshed feeling I felt yesterday after napping on Klono, I'll take whatever it's called.
"Have a Miltown Morning," as the ad said.
> Hi,
> I can only tell you about the one myself {and my mother )use, zopiclone, I beleive it is called imovane in the US.
> I use it as needed and it is excellent, no dopeyness before or after, I use the lowest dose, 3.5 mg which gives me 4-5 hours good sleep and sometimes I can doze after it wears off. The most I have used it is 4 nights in a row and it kept on working, I now use it once or twice a week. My mother has used it for 5 years in a similar fashion and it works as well for her.
> No interactions with my other meds as far as I can see and no reaction after stopping.
> Hope this helps.
> Glenn
Posted by JonW on November 15, 2002, at 12:33:02
In reply to Re: Sleeping pill?, posted by utopizen on November 15, 2002, at 11:42:46
> I just need something to prod me into sleeping, then I can zonk out for a solid 9 hours if I want to. It would be nice though to make me sleep a little deeper to avoid the ocassional awakening my roommate may cause when he doesn't feel like sleeping that night, but I'm not going to select a med over that.
If falling asleep is your only problem then Sonata would be a good choice. It works fast and is out of your system fast. Ambien would ensure that you stay asleep, though. The good thing about Sonata is that you can take it pretty late and it will still clear by morning. All of these "pseudo-benzos" have the advantage of being less likely to be associated with withdrawal, they don't disturb normal sleep stages, they don't stay in the system, and have fewer (in my experience, if any) side-effects. Sonata or Ambien will likely work for you and are more desirable to be on as sleep aids, but then Klonopin might be good for your anxiety. The downside to Klonopin is that it can be somewhat of a dumb drug which isn't good for school, and long term it may make you more depressed. And of course, if and when you stop it you have to taper it very slowly to avoid withdrawal. How long have you been on the stims? It might make the most sense to use Sonata because you can try to fall asleep before taking it and you might know if your sleep difficulties started to get better. The other advantage is that if you have to stay up late to study you can still take it and it will clear by morning.
Jon
Posted by glenn on November 15, 2002, at 12:45:34
In reply to Re: Sleeping pill?, posted by JonW on November 15, 2002, at 12:33:02
I agree, using benzos for sleeping is not such a good idea in the opinion of Dr Shipko the panic disorders expert. In his view the sedating effects do wear off after time unlike the anxiolytic effects and leave a nasty rebound insomnia.
Glenn
Posted by Mystia on November 15, 2002, at 13:14:01
In reply to Sleeping pill?, posted by utopizen on November 15, 2002, at 8:57:01
I have taken Tylenol PM in the past for insomnia and it worked, but I started getting a little addicted to it. So now I am taking Unisom and it seems to be working. I plan on taking it for a little while to get my sleep pattern regular again. Also, I avoid caffeine after about 6 PM (and don't have MUCH even before 6 PM!) and I don't do any strenuous activity for about 4 hours or so before bedtime.
Posted by meow mary on November 15, 2002, at 14:00:42
In reply to Sleeping pill?, posted by utopizen on November 15, 2002, at 8:57:01
Ambien can work as quickly as 15 minutes (if you haven't eaten a lot). Personally, I love how it works, but hate the way it makes me feel the next day. It really messes with my memory and makes me feel jagged and disoriented. And about 5mgs is plenty for me. I much prefer Sonata, which is milder, but unfortunately doesn't work as well sometimes. I still use it though, it's especially helpful for falling asleep, but may not last over 5 or 6 hours.
Posted by meow mary on November 15, 2002, at 14:04:00
In reply to Sleeping pill?, posted by utopizen on November 15, 2002, at 8:57:01
Also no, addiction to Sonata/Ambien has not been a problem for me, although it has created problems for some people. If I didn't have digestive problems I would still be using Valerian root (herbal supplement) which worked very well for me and does not have anything to do with Valium, despite the misinformation. There are a lot of good things you can get at the health food store to help with sleep if you haven't tried them yet. I'd start there.
Posted by Geezer on November 15, 2002, at 14:34:01
In reply to Sleeping pill?, posted by utopizen on November 15, 2002, at 8:57:01
I have been taking Ambien for the past 15 months. It gives about 4 hours sleep (when taken alone) then I am wide awake. Does not seem to have any hang-over affect the next day. I take the Ambien with .5mg. of Klonopin.....that seems to help extend the sleep time.
Wish you the best,
Geezer
Posted by IsoM on November 15, 2002, at 14:45:46
In reply to Sleeping pill?, posted by utopizen on November 15, 2002, at 8:57:01
A long list of other answers that I don't have the time to read right now.
I need to take something each evening to quiet my mind for sleep. In Canada, it's called Gravol. I don't know if there's something like that in the States. It's for travel sickness & nausea & it's a type of antihistamine with weak histamine blocking properties but a stronger side-effect of drowsiness. I take two 50 mg tablets each night about 2 hours before I go to bed. Strangely, it's never lost its effectiveness even after doing this for a number of years.
Posted by utopizen on November 15, 2002, at 17:24:39
In reply to Re: Sleeping pill?, posted by Mystia on November 15, 2002, at 13:14:01
> I have taken Tylenol PM in the past for insomnia and
Um, Benadryl is "Tylenol PM" minus the tylenol...
pretty much all the sleeping pills are benadryl relabeled something. Apparently Unisom is some other form of antihistamine, but I've never tried it. It's probably extremely similar in side effects if I took it anyway.
Posted by Ritch on November 15, 2002, at 22:00:14
In reply to Re: Sleeping pill?, posted by utopizen on November 15, 2002, at 17:24:39
> > I have taken Tylenol PM in the past for insomnia and
>
> Um, Benadryl is "Tylenol PM" minus the tylenol...
>
> pretty much all the sleeping pills are benadryl relabeled something. Apparently Unisom is some other form of antihistamine, but I've never tried it. It's probably extremely similar in side effects if I took it anyway.
>You might try a little lithium... maybe 150mg (half a 300mg generic tab). I think it is supposed to antagonize stimulants. I slept quite soundly on higher doses in the past.. Another idea would be to take your Adderall only once in the morning and only take dexedrine later on in the day so you don't get the long half-life hangover from the l-isomer causing insomnia problems. I suppose you could take 10mg of Adderall first thing AM, then dexedrine 5mg in the afternoon and early evening, and then even mph 10mg closer to bedtime.
Posted by leslieg on November 16, 2002, at 11:28:11
In reply to Re: Sleeping pill? » utopizen, posted by Ritch on November 15, 2002, at 22:00:14
I take Lexapro and Provil and caffiene (depression + narcolepsy + anxiety) during the day. I often have at least 50 mg Provigil as late as 5 pm and a cup of coffee as late as 6:30 so that I can make it through the demanding evenings of a mom-of-3. If I'm too up and/or anxious at bedtime, I take 5 mg Ambien. I love it for the anxiety -- it really quiets my brain down. I do often wake up about 4 hours later, but don't have too much difficulty getting back to sleep. When I take it I feel wonderfully rested, as without it I remember too many dreams! I do worry about dependance -- I don't know when / if that might kick in. I try to take it only a few nights a week.
So in my experience, yes you can take "uppers" during the day and "downers" at night and come out pretty much OK. (Of course, I wish I didn't have to, but without the combo I'm pretty useless.)
This is the end of the thread.
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