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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 37. Go back in thread:
Posted by Artman on October 7, 2002, at 14:26:00
In reply to Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by lawrence s. on October 5, 2002, at 20:23:47
I'm a pewtersmith, 41, and I have bipolar with ocd and have taken lithium and prozac for 14 years. I also had agoraphobia (started at 15) and PTSD from parents nasty divorce. Before meds I was bouncing off the walls. The highs were great, the lows suicidal. Pressure of speech, flight of ideas, etc. I miss the hyperawareness and connection with external environment. I would get tons of ideas, never completed anything. Worry and anxiety are still a big block most of the time. Going through mid-life crap and the stress is causing my meds to screw up. The meds saved my life and allow me to stay focused, but tend to make me drowsy("lithium shuffle"). Stress causes breakthrough episodes of OCD, anxiety, and depression. Finally taking risk on my art after 20 years of avoiding it. Scared out of my mind, OCD rampant, but moving ahead with things anyway. I tried Topomax but with no success. Have found Zen sitting and blind contour drawing to be very helpful in stopping the intrustive thoughts. Have been using Omega-3 flaxseed oil for a few months now and it seems to take the edge off of the depression. I use it as an adjunct and never plan to stop taking meds. Make sure you drink your water. 8 glasses. I need to get better at that myself. I hope some of my comments help you.
Posted by Jerrympls on October 7, 2002, at 19:24:17
In reply to Any artists, musicians out there on meds? - Yup!, posted by Roman on October 5, 2002, at 22:33:24
I am a musician. Pretty dead inside right now. ADs have only deadened my desire for music. Opioids seems to ignite the feelsing sI used to get from music.
SRRIs are the worst.
Posted by Gracie2 on October 9, 2002, at 0:13:19
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by jyl on October 7, 2002, at 8:27:02
What an interesting thread! I'm an artist and the different medications I've been on have definately affected my creativity. I've been diagnosed as bipolar. Bottomed out on Depakote, couldn't concentrate long enough to do a thing.
Quit the Depakote, horrible withdrawal, too agitated to paint, although I probably could have done one of those Jackson Pollack-type things (I don't care for abstract).
Calmed down on Seroquel and some semblance of creativity returned, but I didn't have the energy to do the murals and large canvases that I used to do. I was determined to do something, though, so I started painting small wooden boxes. After my
Seroquel was upped to 400 mg daily, I couldn't even do that for awhile, I was just so tired. After a few weeks I adjusted to the dosage and started painting a little more. Now I'm also taking Paxil and it's actually helped me, I've started to paint on a more regular basis.
I know that I'll never return to the level of creative energy that I used to have when I was in manic cycle, but I'm also doing quite well without the killing depressions.
-Gracie
Posted by wcfrench on October 9, 2002, at 1:57:30
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by Gracie2 on October 9, 2002, at 0:13:19
I played trumpet and piano in college, until I recently graduated. I sing and play guitar also, but for my own "rock star" purposes. When I started taking Geodon and it kicked in, I could "feel" the music-- it was the wierdest thing. I had never felt it that strongly before. I think it was the dopamine action.. but I had a nasty bout with that med and stopped taking it, and haven't felt the music on that magnitude since. When I took Paxil, I did develop a pretty close connection with Counting Crows music, the emotion just seemed to flow into good feelings. Now I'm flat, on Remeron, and switching off to Zoloft in effort to get some feelings again.
I've never dropped acid, but I suspect that I'm missing out on something. Yes, on the Geodon, colors did also seem more appealing and Buddhism struck a major chord with my- since I was also in a Buddhism class at the time. I felt a great spiritual connection, but I realize that I may have just been experiencing bouts of grandeur- but it was awesome.
The music was amazing, and I'd give anything to feel music like that all the time. And I was writing lyrics, songs, personal writings, and they became very dear to me. I started drawing art that looked similar to John Lennon's. It was like I found out how other people lived and how someone's "notebook" of writing became so dear to them and so important. It was amazing, but I don't really feel it anymore. Hopefully the motivation and emotion will come back. I think it will, eventually.
That was the best I've ever felt in my life.
Posted by wcfrench on October 9, 2002, at 2:19:06
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by wcfrench on October 9, 2002, at 1:57:30
Here's some lagniappe.
On the Geodon my motor skills were also improved. I could do anagrams like an idiot savant. I could look at a word and come up with other words that you could create from that word in an eerily fast way. I beat my sister and her boyfriend who are both MIT graduates in Scrabble, and by a lot. They are pretty smart people. I used to lose to them almost all the time, but when I was taking Geodon it was like I could just find the words so easily. I got PIMENTOS and got the 50 point bonus. I mean, come on. Pimentos. I had to face the challenge that it was spelled "Pimientoes," but luckily there were two spellings.
I also recall driving around and just having these amazing moments of calm happiness.. I had never had those before. I still, to this day, remember driving from Berkeley back to my sister's in San Francisco and feeling amazing happiness that I had never felt before. Truly remarkable.
Calculus became a joke. I was in Calc 2, and I stopped writing out the steps of the problems and just scribbled a couple of numbers down and then wrote the answer. I turned into a different math student- one of those ones that were very messy and fast but knew the right answer because they "saw" it. It just became so much easier to see things visually. My imagination was so powerful, and my visual thought was uncanny, remarkable. I felt like John Travolta in phenomenon when he reworked the parking spots in the parking lot to give it maximum occupancy. I wanted to teach Calculus because I found it so fascinating. I almost wanted to apply to graduate school for Math instead of Computer Science. In received a BS in Comp. Sci and a BM in Music, just to throw that out there. I realized why people dedicated their lives to Mathematics and how truly brilliant good mathematicians are.
I wrote a song for my girlfriend that made complete sense to me, but I think she thought I was on cloud nine. It went something like this.
I'm in a sea of shallow fishes where the water's going down...
I'm in a land of broken waters where the people all drown...
I'm in an ocean filled with promises and they all seem to say...
I'm in a promise filled with oceans and you're getting in my way...
(No one better steal this)To me, it was profound, brilliant, and it made me slip into a higher state of mind. It was like I was a Buddhist and it was my koan. It was my "what is the sound of one hand clapping?" "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"
Well, needless to say, it has lost some of it's appeal, but I still am going to finish it out as a song.
I remember being in total control of my emotions. Anger and fights seemed so silly. It was like I was above it all, and no one could upset me. I was there to teach people about life. I was a Bodhisattva, an enlightened being on this earth who's job is to teach others about life. Sure, I wasn't having bouts of grandeur!
Well, mathematician or not, those were certainly some of the best and most interesting weeks of my life. I wish I didn't have to stop the medicine, but it started doing bad things to me, and since then I've stopped antipsychotics all together. I still have some left though, in hopes to one day reunite with the Buddhist gods.
I hope you enjoyed my story.
-Charlie
Posted by Gracie2 on October 9, 2002, at 3:15:54
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by Gracie2 on October 9, 2002, at 0:13:19
If you haven't read it yet, "Touched With Fire"
by Kay Redfield Jamison is classic reading on the genetic link between creativity and depression
(subtitle: Manic-depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperament). Even if you haven't been diagnosed as (or consider yourself to be) manic-depressive, there's interesting study on how psychiatric medications affect creativity, and fascinating tables on different creative personalities (poets, writers, composers, musicians, artists) who suffered from depression,
bipolar disorder, suicide or suicide attempts, and commitment to a psychiatric hospital or asylum.
-Gracie
Posted by Artman on October 9, 2002, at 7:37:36
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by Gracie2 on October 9, 2002, at 0:13:19
Yes, the "creativeness" feelings I used to experience are missed very much. A lot of my current frustration is learning how to adjust to this calmer creative feeling caused by my meds. One thing I have been able to do is complete lots of work. Before medication, my drawings or artwork were left unfinished. I remember during a "manic trip" to Australia in the 80's I began using the book "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain," by Betty Edwards. In two months, I went from drawing stick figures to photo-realism. But I never finished any of these drawings. I had just come of "Nardil", a MAO, and had terrible withdraw symptoms myself. Needless to say upon my arrival stateside after three months down there and with $2.00 in my pocket, I checked into the hospital and found out I was suffering from bipolar depression. Does anybody have difficulty with the Obsessive-Compulsive aspect that often accompanies bipolar? I don't have any problems with slamming doors or rituals, but find myself unable to shut out the intrusive thoughts. It usually affects me more during times of stress. Having lost my job a few months ago has certainly been a stressor! I must confess I do find myself longing for the "good old days". The hardest part of taking medication is how it it seems to dull or dampen things. I realize that my years of manic highs conditoned my brain into thinking this was reality. I can see why so many people desire to get off them. I have no interest to do this, but I do feel a certain sadness at times about the lack of connection I feel with the environment. It is somewhat like the longing for being a kid again. No worries, just pure awareness.
I have read Kay Jamison's book "Touched by Fire". A very informative text. Dr. Jamison also wrote "the" textbook on Manic Depression: "Manic Depressive Illness" published by Oxford Press. It's roughly 900 pages of clinical and personal experience with bipolar disorder. It cost $75.00 a few years ago, but it has some very good information about how important it is to use both meds and psychotherapy for healing. Ours is a disorder biologically based, with behavioral symptoms and effects. It took me a very long time to finally come to the realization that I would need the psychotheraputic aspect of recovery to further my healing. It hasn't been easy or fun, but I'm getting there. Cognitive-Behavioral techniques seem to work for me most of the time. I still have trouble with fear and worry though. My imagination can run away with me in a heartbeat. I can catastrophize and visualize things to where I just want to hid. Yet I am a pilot and fly gliders. Go figure!! I guess I am rambling now, but I am glad that folks are sharing their experiences here. I enjoyed hearing what French and Gracie had to say. It helps me to know that I'm not so alone.
Posted by FredPotter on October 9, 2002, at 15:36:48
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by wcfrench on October 9, 2002, at 2:19:06
Charlie Thanks for all that. I'm like that now. I am out of a rock-bottom anxiety-can't-cope-with-anything depression fueled by alcohol and now I don't drink and take Pamelor and Lithium, as well as fish oil. All of what you say happens, the piano playing (I'm even thinking of getting my trumpet out again), the Buddhism, the insights. I'm avidly reading philosophy at night and while I don't take Xanax any more (I stopped gradually and without problem), I purposely take Zopiclone to sleep whether I need to or not. That way I can read right up to the time I want to fall asleep without wasting time just lying awake trying to sleep.
My pdoc says the neurons continue to regenerate up to 6 years after drinking has stopped. I figured that if the brain was rebuilding itself (it sure feels that way - I can almost feel the connections re-establishing themselves) I'd better give it the right fats - hence the fish oil.
Posted by FredPotter on October 9, 2002, at 15:43:57
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by Artman on October 9, 2002, at 7:37:36
When I'm depressed I have racing thoughts. When I'm happy like now, the thoughts still race, but it feels like I'm riding them. Just a thought (there it goes rrrrmmmmmm!)
Posted by Alara on October 10, 2002, at 7:54:55
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds? » wcfrench, posted by FredPotter on October 9, 2002, at 15:36:48
>" Charlie Thanks for all that. I'm like that now. I am out of a rock-bottom anxiety-can't-cope-with-anything depression fueled by alcohol and now I don't drink and take Pamelor and Lithium, as well as fish oil. All of what you say happens, the piano playing (I'm even thinking of getting my trumpet out again)..."
Sorry to digress but: Fred, how long long did it take you after giving up alcohol to regain your enthusiasm for music?
I've been sober for the greater part of the last 6 weeks (for the first time in years). The trouble is that I never feel like practising while sober. While drinking I had oodles of energy/passion and could sing and play for hours without a break. Now that I spend most of my time sober, I just want to watch TV in the evenings.I don't want to give up my musical future as it's one of the few things that keeps me going. But I do need to give up alcohol!
Posted by Ippopo on October 10, 2002, at 9:29:43
In reply to Racing and riding thoughts, posted by FredPotter on October 9, 2002, at 15:43:57
FredPotter, Bravo!
Posted by Ippopo on October 10, 2002, at 10:26:03
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by Alara on October 10, 2002, at 7:54:55
I thought creativity perpetuated itself.
An Instructor, Paul Hinchcliffe once said you can put him in an empty room and he'd be able to create an endless supply of drawings and paintings of the room. It Isn't what we did or how we did it but what we do with what we have at the momment? Isn't it a little like Joseph Cornell who would only create using what he could find within a certain radius of his home?
True, severe depression and suicidal ideation are not the place to be but even Rothko did work in his own way(Please do not go by way of Rothko).
12 October 02 I will have 16yrs without street drugs or alcohol.
Posted by FredPotter on October 10, 2002, at 14:46:01
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by Alara on October 10, 2002, at 7:54:55
Alara I gave up drink finally on the 2 Aug. I would say I started to feel really better about a month from then. I still don't often endlessly extemporise in a mad passion like before. I also watch too much TV, although it's getting less. I have to make the effort to practise piano in a more structured way. Extra happiness comes from doing that, and knowing that I'm doing it better. I suppose my happiness depends on my getting things done - household chores etc. All done in a Zennish frame of mind, that everything I do is equally important - or that everything is more important than everything else. Watching work pile up is a sure way of losing my Zen calm. The urge "to let my hair down" hardly comes at all now, although I still have addictions, like reading Philosophy books in bed while puffing on my pipe. Please let me know how you get on. Wishing you luck
Fred
Posted by wcfrench on October 10, 2002, at 15:09:03
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds? » wcfrench, posted by FredPotter on October 9, 2002, at 15:36:48
> Charlie Thanks for all that. I'm like that now. I am out of a rock-bottom anxiety-can't-cope-with-anything depression fueled by alcohol and now I don't drink and take Pamelor and Lithium, as well as fish oil. All of what you say happens, the piano playing (I'm even thinking of getting my trumpet out again), the Buddhism, the insights. I'm avidly reading philosophy at night and while I don't take Xanax any more (I stopped gradually and without problem), I purposely take Zopiclone to sleep whether I need to or not. That way I can read right up to the time I want to fall asleep without wasting time just lying awake trying to sleep.
>Fred, way to go! I'm glad to hear that you are doing so well and that the smooth calm thoughts are flowing. I hope to be back there soon!
This is certainly the most interesting thread I've ever been involved in.
Speaking of Pollack, has anyone seen the movie Pollack? It's scary, I remember how much I identified with the last scene of the movie. What he did I completely understood. Wondering if anyone else remembers feeling this way.
-Charlie
Posted by FredPotter on October 10, 2002, at 15:30:39
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds? » FredPotter, posted by wcfrench on October 10, 2002, at 15:09:03
I don't know the film. Must request it for the local film group. I like reading about famous artists, composers etc. A lot of them go through what we go through. I'm reminded of the tragic but wonderful Schumann. Flowers grow on his grave all right
Posted by Gracie2 on October 10, 2002, at 20:21:48
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by Alara on October 10, 2002, at 7:54:55
I have the same problem, I can't seem to produce any artwork without a glass of wine at my side.
Painting without drinking doesn't feel right. I've considered that it's not really the alcohol which fuels my creativity, it's the connection I've made between alcohol and artwork in my own mind, after years of drinking and painting. A few times I sat down to paint with a glass of iced tea
as a substitute, and it did help a little. But it's not the same. Normally I'm somewhat conservative, and the wine helped to loosen me up,
but sometimes I have trouble putting a cap on it.These days I usually stick to drinking Baileys, since I pretty much get full before I get too buzzed. It's not the greatest solution, the stuff
is full of fat and sugar, but it's an improvement.
-Gracie
Posted by Ippopo on October 10, 2002, at 22:20:36
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds? » FredPotter, posted by wcfrench on October 10, 2002, at 15:09:03
Charlie,
I didn't see the movie but keep seeing it at the video shop. I'll rent it this weekend and let you know.
Thank you
Posted by lawrence s. on October 11, 2002, at 23:28:08
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by Artman on October 9, 2002, at 7:37:36
I too am a glider pilot, artist, musician. I don't want to give all that up. If I may be so bold, What meds do you take?
Lawrence S
Posted by Artman on October 12, 2002, at 12:27:04
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds? » Artman, posted by lawrence s. on October 11, 2002, at 23:28:08
Lawrence,
Sorry for the delay. I was casting some pewter items and the days got away from me.
I'm taking 20mg Prozac a.m., and 300mg Lithobid a.m. & p.m. I've upped the Prozac to 40mg. since I've been stressed out over my job loss in April. Been having terrible break-through depression/obsessing lately. Always caused by stress every time.
As for flying, I haven't flown for about a year and a half. I was already a Private Pilot SEL before meds. I got my glider rating in the middle 90's. My meds didn't seem to cause me any problem at all. My main problem was getting enough flight time in to stay current and safe. I felt confident during my training due to the long hours in the cockpit, but once I got the ticket it became harder to afford flight time. I taught myself spins in a 1-26. Boy! What a rush! I fly a Blanik most of the time. I've also flown a 2-22 as well. I never flew on days when I felt upset or worried. I'm not one for taking chances. I miss being in the pilot's seat though. I went back to school in 98 and pretty much had to say goodbye to the flying. But what I miss the most is having an engine. I liked taking trips. I've been keeping up with the EAA's new Sport Pilot Proposal. If you haven't heard about it, go check it out. It's at the OBM in D.C. at the moment. Public review has been closed. If it passes, you'll be able to fly an airplane without a 3rd-class medical. The restrictions are 1252 lbs gross takeoff weight, two occupants, 115 cruise, and 39kts or below stall speed. No night or Class A,B,C airspace. EAA/FAA realized the glider pilots weren't falling out of the sky incapacitated without a medical. Only two accidents for 20 years I believe.
If you are using lithium, remember your reaction times may be slower. Your awareness dulled. I never flew out of sight of the airfield since I wasn't that experienced. Mainly Sunday thermaling and sled rides with friends. Certainly nothing to write home about. But I do hope that I can get back in the sky someday. I do miss it so. But for now I'm just sitting tight until I can get more money to fly more often and stay current.
Posted by Alara on October 12, 2002, at 19:50:27
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by Ippopo on October 10, 2002, at 10:26:03
> I thought creativity perpetuated itself.
>
Thanks you,Ippopo. It's amazing how frequently I have to tell myself this. I know that all I need to do is to start the process, to sing or play those first few notes, and that something more will grow from that. Yet I don't do it because there's a fear inside me which prevents me from getting started. Without drugs or alcohol, I am in a very raw state; there is a gnawing feeling in my stomach which kills all connection with the peaceful, wise part of myself that needs to create. In my raw state, I am flooded with self-doubt and feelings of inadequacy. It is with me 24 X 7.I know that, one day, music and I can continue our friendship in a healthier way. Meanwhile, I can only try to ride out the wave. :-)
Posted by Alara on October 12, 2002, at 20:09:18
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds? » Alara, posted by FredPotter on October 10, 2002, at 14:46:01
Thank you, Fred. There are worse things that a person can do than to read Philosophy books in bed while puffing on a pipe. :-) I'm glad to hear that you are gradually feeling better. You give me hope!I know what you mean when you say that (while sober) you practise in a more constructive way, happy in the knowledge that you are doing it better. I have had experiences like this. Unfortunately I would do the sober practice for 30 minutes or so. The craziest part is that even though I knew that I had made far greater progress practising in just half an hour than I would have made in 3 hours drunk, that raw feeling in my stomach would continue to mount in the background until i felt like screaming. Of course, I'd drive straight to the liquor store and would then continue my practice while self-medicating with wine.
I have come to terms with the fact that I may need to give up my music for a few months because, like Gracie, I associate my music practice with alcohol. Deep down I know that I'll be better off sitting around watching TV sober than I will be if I continue to poison myself in the name of `my musical future'.
Gracie: maybe you and I can eventually learn to reassociate our art/music with ice-water and tea. Of course it won't be the same as chardonnay or Baileys at first.:-( Maybe persistance is the key?
Posted by Ippopo on October 13, 2002, at 3:47:32
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by Alara on October 12, 2002, at 19:50:27
I'm glad I could help
In school there was one student (cute as a button and happy as a lark) who decided life was too depressing so he painted Cheerios. From his example I decided not to use angst any longer to create (Edvard Munch). I was a Naive art student who believed for creativity one had to live like a bohemian and to exist in a world of angst. Little did I know the stereotype existed for a reason, depression "rears it's ugly head". I've decided even if it's one creative thought that has nothing to do with my chosen medium, (i.e.) "How to wrap tin foil around a TV antenna for better reception"...
Creativity begets creativity/
Creativity perpetuates creativity
FEAR...False Evidence Appearing Real
Posted by Alara on October 13, 2002, at 6:25:32
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds? » Alara, posted by Ippopo on October 13, 2002, at 3:47:32
>
"FEAR...False Evidence Appearing Real"> I was a Naive art student who believed for creativity one had to live like a bohemian and to exist in a world of angst. Little did I know the stereotype existed for a reason, depression "rears it's ugly head".
Isn't it ironic, Ippopo? We were attracted to the idea at first. The bohemian's angst had a strange sort of romantic appeal. It attracted the artist's kindred spirit and yet gave the artist an early glimpse of a less-than-romantic future- a future involving depression or mental illness on the whole.
Having depression or any other kind of mental illness is no bed of roses. But let me tell you one thing: Atleast the bohemian artist (with or without his/her existential anxiety) seemed to be alive! He/she was at least a human being; he/she was immune to the ruthless corporate ladder climbing that destroys a human being's soul.
I, for one, would like to keep the bohemian arist alive in me. It has been almost 2 months without meds. I don't like the depression or anxiety but my artist/musician self likes the fact that I have refused to sell out on her. How about you??
Creativity VS medication
Posted by Ippopo on October 13, 2002, at 23:18:30
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds?, posted by Alara on October 13, 2002, at 6:25:32
Hi Alara,
I do understand your feelings about climbing the corporate ladder. I also had the same feelings. As a student I went to school, worked, and went to AA meetings, in the Loop (downtown Chicago). I attended mtgs. on the Northside but being a newcomer I wanted to go to mtgs. during the afternoon as well. I ended up going to a mtg called Nooners in the financial district of the downtown area. I had no idea I was sitting in a room filled with lawyers, CEO's, CFO's, traders, runners.....the list is pretty diverse. Going to these meetings taught me there wasn't much of a difference between us. They didn't have the desire to create in the arts/fine arts, but were given a gift and choose to use their creativity and intelligence in a different way. I also realized a lot of these people supported the arts and a few were incredible artist but hadn't chosen the arts to make a living.
My medium is mixed media. I've shown in small galleries and even sold a few pieces. The ones who bought pieces were those with money.
There are all kinds of people and I'm lucky to have met some who are very strong spiritually, sober, and very loving people regardless of their profession. It's taken years to get to this point of acceptance and understanding.
What I've yet to accept are sports fans (Yuk!), especially Cubs and Bears fans (Yuk Yuk Yuk!).
Posted by Alara on October 14, 2002, at 0:48:02
In reply to Re: Any artists, musicians out there on meds? » Alara, posted by Ippopo on October 13, 2002, at 23:18:30
You're right to point that out, Ippopo. :-) I didn't mean to put anyone down but it probably came out that way. I guess I'm just feeling down about being under a lot of pressure to make a living in the corporate world at the moment. It's just not `me' and I have a really hard time fitting in there.
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