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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 41 to 65 of 65. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2002, at 9:10:51
In reply to Re: Please be civil » NikkiT2, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2002, at 9:04:38
This thread appears to be one that raises strong feelings in a lot of posters. Here are some quotes from Dr. Bob's civility guidelines that you might want to keep in mind while composing your posts.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Please respect the views of others even if you think they're wrong. Please be sensitive to their feelings even if they hurt yours. Different points of view are fine, and in fact encouraged...
You might want to use the link to read the rest of the guidelines.
Thanks for your cooperation while Dr. Bob is away.
Dinah
Posted by beardedlady on September 7, 2002, at 10:07:38
In reply to Re: Please be careful everyone, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2002, at 9:10:51
I saw this thread, and it sparked some bit of memory about something I must have read or heard on NPR.
Anyway, the piece was talking about how psychiatrists had been studying the use of ecstasy in severely depressed patients and how it was a very successful drug with lots of promise--I think for patients who were usually treatment resistant or bipolar (it's foggy, but it's a memory nonetheless!). A psychiatrist (a prominent one, as I recall) was saying she was very disappointed because they were unable to get grant money to continue the studies due to all the prejudice about the drug and since it had been made illegal. I think they had even found similar things with LSD.
Does any of this ring a bell with anyone? Now that I think further about it, I realize that I'd read the article aloud to my husband while we were driving somewhere, so it must've been in a magazine--like Health or Fitness.
beardy
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2002, at 12:43:04
In reply to ecstasy to treat depression, posted by beardedlady on September 7, 2002, at 10:07:38
Yes, in fact a psychologist I was seeing had used it in treatment as well as did a number of her colleagues. I did not personally undergo therapy using ecstacy with her because by the time I began seeing her it had just become illegal. This was in Berkeley, CA in the 70's and quite a few psychs and psychiatrists were using it with alot of excitement. It has tremendous potential for cutting through layers and layers of ego stuff and self denial and arriving at a new and healthy perspective. My husband, in fact, was amongst the test group of volunteers for 'upper limit' testing performed by a San Francisco psychiatrist in the early '70s. This means they were given very high doses on numerous occasions - many times higher than the standard street dose. My husband is one of the most stable and unflappable individuals you could ever meet and is living proof that not everyone gets their brain turned to mush.
It's interesting that 'new' research is bringing into question former allegations of ecstacy being this satanic dangerous drug that fries your brain. The fact is, no one should take it lightly at all. It strips everything down to bare bones honesty. You can't hide while on ecstacy. This seeing through your own bullshit can be either horribly threatening or incredibly liberating. Yes, it's a beautifully sensual experience, but a strong emotional one as well. The heart simply breaks open, and some folks cannot stand such intimate intensity. Taking it as a party drug will work only so many times, then intense self reflection is inevitable - that's just the nature of the ecstacy diva, that's just her way. This is a very potent tool, weapon, magic wand, whatever. It shouldn't be gobbled willy-nilly by everyone and using it as a therapeutic tool could be powerful - it's empathic reflective nature enables a speedier cutting to the chase of the issue. Branding it as a horribly disabling dangerous mind blowing drug? Bah! It's just a goverment ploy to keep us scared and ignorant - what better way to turn public consensus away from something so powerful than to appeal to our fear of 'brain damage'. Remember the chromosome damage scare of LSD? Pure horsepucky - but it sure worked to scare us silly from using it. Be wary of the fact that dulling stupid-type substances are legal and expansive ones are not. Again, take note of the 'new' current research suggesting that, hmmmmm, maybe we were a little hasty with our conclusions of brain damage and should rethink this substance. And those of you who have never taken MDMA, can you really discuss this with any knowledge? Aren't your arguments perhaps clouded by judgements based in misinformation and fear?
> I saw this thread, and it sparked some bit of memory about something I must have read or heard on NPR.
>
> Anyway, the piece was talking about how psychiatrists had been studying the use of ecstasy in severely depressed patients and how it was a very successful drug with lots of promise--I think for patients who were usually treatment resistant or bipolar (it's foggy, but it's a memory nonetheless!). A psychiatrist (a prominent one, as I recall) was saying she was very disappointed because they were unable to get grant money to continue the studies due to all the prejudice about the drug and since it had been made illegal. I think they had even found similar things with LSD.
>
> Does any of this ring a bell with anyone? Now that I think further about it, I realize that I'd read the article aloud to my husband while we were driving somewhere, so it must've been in a magazine--like Health or Fitness.
>
> beardy
Posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2002, at 12:46:39
In reply to Re: Please be careful everyone, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2002, at 9:10:51
Dinah,
Thanks for your sweetness and sensitivity. You're doing a fine job in a difficult arena. Dr. Bob should be proud of you.
Posted by beardedlady on September 7, 2002, at 13:42:29
In reply to Re: ecstasy to treat depression » beardedlady, posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2002, at 12:43:04
Thanks, Barb. My hubby and I used MDMA a few times; it was a wonderful experience. Of course, this was the eighties, and, because it wasn't such a cash business, people weren't selling so much of the dangerous garbage (like dog heartworm pills). I remember sitting down and rubbing my hands on my skin because the touching felt soooo good.
We used LSD fairly often--cutting a whole hit into four squares and using on a quarter or an eighth each. It is amazing how clearly you can see and think and hear. It's like every pore is open to the world. And you could take the tiniest amount and feel so wonderful, so I'm certain benefits could have been found. (I do know a woman whose father was part of those military tests that gave men extremely high doses of LSD without telling them. He was destroyed and remained in mental institutions his whole life due to schizoid behavior and delusional episodes. But bad experiments don't necessarily mean bad medicine.)
I have to admit that if I didn't have insomnia and take Serzone and have a child (if if if if if if if), I may (may may may may) still be using it recreationally.
Ahhh. But I digress. Thanks for letting me know that my memory doesn't stink. I do think that it is purely politics and capitalism that make certain drugs legal and others illegal. The illegal ones are no less therapeutic, and the legal ones are no less dangerous!
I think that's the scariest part of this debate. So many people are willing to put trust that legal means better for you. But alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana remain the best evidence that this is not true.
Again, Barb, thanks.
beardy
Posted by Linkadge on September 7, 2002, at 14:10:56
In reply to Re: ecstasy to treat depression » BarbaraCat, posted by beardedlady on September 7, 2002, at 13:42:29
Ecstacy is an amphetamine derivitive of
Mescaline - and Mescaline is the active
ingredient in Peyote - a cactus used in
Aztec religious ceremonies.Mescaline is a gentler more sentual experience
then LSD. LSD in depressed people can be
EXTREMELY desasterous. Especially if the person
has even a hint of psychosis.MDMA - Ecstacy is mood elavating because it
is an amphetamine, it can deminish the ego
and open the sences. It is definately less
psychadelic then LSD.Ecstacy is an effective short term antidepressant
because it stimulates the release of Seretonin
and Dopamine. The dopamine release is what makes
it very sentual. It definatly does not cause
apathy like SSRI's do. This is why I am very
interested in new Seritonin and Dopamine enhancing
drugs.Unfortunately becuase Ecstacy is an amphetamine
you do develop a tolerance to it's AD effect.
And because it is a stimulant it can cause
psychosis when used over the long term. Plus
ecstacy selectivly destroys seretonin neurons.
(Many causes of depression of major depression have been precipitated by long term MDMA use)
This is well known info.The government is not trying to eliminate
good potential AD's but EX is really a potent
neurotoxin.Good Luck and don't abuse the drug
Linkadge
[xxx]
Posted by Roastmarshmellows on September 7, 2002, at 16:09:11
In reply to Ecstacy info, posted by Linkadge on September 7, 2002, at 14:10:56
We need to bring back the draft. To take all the puss nuts punks in their teens and twenties and get them away from these weird drugs, raves and other STUPID activities. Send them somewhere where there is rugged terrain, rough weather and make them walk twenty miles a day carrying 75 lb packs. Pretty soon the youth of America would no longer be obese, self esteem levels would skyrocket cause nobody would be fat anymore.
Draft women too. They need the military even more than men do these days. All these silly activities of America's youth are for loserdom and in the end equal a spoiled rotten, worthless, obese group of young people with no fitness levels, no goals in life...nothing.
Oh yeah dont forget you can roast marshmellows while sitting around the campfire at night after a 20 mile hike.
Posted by shar on September 7, 2002, at 16:10:24
In reply to Ecstacy info, posted by Linkadge on September 7, 2002, at 14:10:56
Is it just another big lie that people who use X also use pacifiers (for some physiological reason, not bruxism, but maybe, if I recall).
I'm just thinking of possible business opportunities since it is such a great drug after all!
Shar
Posted by Roastmarshmellows on September 7, 2002, at 16:14:37
In reply to Re: ecstasy to treat depression » beardedlady, posted by BarbaraCat on September 7, 2002, at 12:43:04
> Yes, in fact a psychologist I was seeing had used it in treatment as well as did a number of her colleagues.
And this psychologist, does this psychologist still have her clinical psychology license? Or did it get pulled somewhere along the line?
>I did not personally undergo therapy using ecstacy with her because by the time I began seeing her it had just become illegal. This was in Berkeley, CA in the 70's and quite a few psychs and psychiatrists were using it with alot of excitement.
Mostly a bunch of headcase jewish psychologists and psychiatrists who were recovering hippies from the sixties conducted these studies right? How many of them still have their licenses?
It has tremendous potential for cutting through layers and layers of ego stuff and self denial and arriving at a new and healthy perspectiveWow...far out man. Im impressed. So all this acid and stuff you did back then...is that why you call yourself "beardedlady?" Is that what happened to you?
Hallucinogenic drugs have no place in the treatment of mental illness and more times than not, will exacerbate mental illness, sometimes creating a psychosis that didnt previously exist. Any mental health worker who advocates the use of such hallucinogenics should be IMMEDIATELY reported to their state licensing board and have their license pulled.
Posted by beardedlady on September 7, 2002, at 16:46:23
In reply to Re: X the drug of losers, posted by Roastmarshmellows on September 7, 2002, at 16:09:11
> Oh yeah dont forget you can roast marshmellows while sitting around the campfire at night after a 20 mile hike.
Posted by wcfrench on September 7, 2002, at 17:15:36
In reply to Re: Please be civil » wcfrench, posted by NikkiT2 on September 7, 2002, at 8:22:04
>never judge others till you have walked a mile in their shoes is a pretty good way to think, and it seems you are unable of this.
And I suppose this is the same point of view we should take with murderers and rapists? Things are made illegal for a reason, and though we can have empathy for others, recreational drug use can be easily controlled.
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 7, 2002, at 17:17:31
In reply to Re: X the drug of losers, posted by Roastmarshmellows on September 7, 2002, at 16:09:11
Luckily I live in the UK, and I'm not a teen. ;)
Posted by NikkiT2 on September 7, 2002, at 17:19:22
In reply to Adult Binky Market?, posted by shar on September 7, 2002, at 16:10:24
In the early 90's in was kinda trendy in the raving scene to suck on a pacifier.. is indeed for bruxism.. e always gave me terrible bruxism.
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2002, at 17:29:03
In reply to Re: Please be careful everyone, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2002, at 9:10:51
I understand that there was some provocation on this thread, but please don't respond in kind.
Please think before you post, and read the civility guidelines. Take a walk, count to ten, whatever you need to do.
Thanks everyone for keeping a cool head.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2002, at 17:33:27
In reply to Re: Please be careful everyone, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2002, at 17:29:03
I just finished reading the entire thread and I must say I am impressed. Thank you everyone for keeping a cool head and a sense of proportion.
A greatly relieved,
Dinah
Posted by Chris A. on September 7, 2002, at 18:39:52
In reply to Re: X the drug of losers, posted by Roastmarshmellows on September 7, 2002, at 16:09:11
Please! I have family members who are putting their lives on the line for <your> freedom of speech and everything else you hold dear. This verbal abuse of our men and women in uniform and our youth will not and cannot be tolerated.
> We need to bring back the draft. To take all the puss nuts punks in their teens and twenties and get them away from these weird drugs, raves and other STUPID activities. Send them somewhere where there is rugged terrain, rough weather and make them walk twenty miles a day carrying 75 lb packs. Pretty soon the youth of America would no longer be obese, self esteem levels would skyrocket cause nobody would be fat anymore.
>
> Draft women too. They need the military even more than men do these days. All these silly activities of America's youth are for loserdom and in the end equal a spoiled rotten, worthless, obese group of young people with no fitness levels, no goals in life...nothing.
>
> Oh yeah dont forget you can roast marshmellows while sitting around the campfire at night after a 20 mile hike.
Posted by Mr Beev on September 7, 2002, at 18:46:36
In reply to ecstasy to treat depression, posted by beardedlady on September 7, 2002, at 10:07:38
This rings a bell with me as well, though I cannot recall where I came across the information - you (B.Lady) are certainly not misremembering.
Though I've not indulged in E, everything acquaintances of mine have told me confirms completely what you (B.Cat) have said. One fellow I know had a difficult relationship with his sister going back to childhood. One day they both swallowed some E, had a long, heart-bearing talk, and have remained close ever since. It is unfortunate indeed that researchers cannot pursue its potential therapeutic properties.
Regards,
Mr Beev 'glad someone got marshmAllow'
Posted by reese1 on September 7, 2002, at 19:02:11
In reply to Re: Please be civil » NikkiT2, posted by wcfrench on September 7, 2002, at 17:15:36
what i'm about to say has nothing to do with a majority of the posts that i read about ecstacy. most of what was stated about ecstacy is pretty much factual information, it might be old, but it is true and there still is a small movement, just like any movement, that would very much like to see MDMA used for POST DRAMATIC STREES CASES AND WITH RAPE CASES for two examples.
but what scared and pissed me off the most were the people who had the time and energy to talk shit about how stupid these doctors must be for prescribing this party rave drug.
i know from my position, now just turning 34, and for ten years now taken every possible medication that is legal, alone, combined, plethora of hospitalizations, etc etc. my life is pretty much done. when i was thirteen i was number 1 in california in tennis. in 1992 i was voted best actor in Chicago. now i'm waiting to get on Disability. I no longer hope. I no longer dream. I no longer can imagine what i look like.
So if someone came up to me from NYU or Stanford or wherever and would have a clinical drug trial for ecstacy to treat depression how could i say no? you can scream and scream but i can not under any reasoning say no to that. what do i have to lose or more importantly what might i have to gain? a nice day. and you can look down on me for that.
the same goes with opiate type drugs?
such as buprenex?
or whatever
it is a sad state that when you graduate to the psychiatric world of the united states, you hit first grade with prozac then instead of going forward as in school you do a u-turn. moving what you think is forward- taking wellbutrin, effexor, lithium, depakote, neurontin, zyprexa, adderal, but then the joke becomes obvios where do the doctors go when the future runs dry?
backwards. where do they go first. those reject drugs they never thought would be used again. you know which ones. The MAO'S. Try some Nardil, then Parnate. then when that doesn't work were gonna take your hand and take you further back. don't listen to what you've heard. it's not painful. you won't feel a thing. it will only take between 6 to 12 sessions. it has the best cure ratio. so where are you know. your hooked to your toe waiting for the seizure to hit to get your first jolt of ECT
so who is who to say what is good and what is bad?
what is offered today is much more on the side of the joke than on the side of being serious.
psychiatrist, and an honest one will admit this to you, they know this much about anti-depressents, bi-polor drugs- which sadly are all used by accident. valproic acid was not initially designed for manic depression but like the rest for seizures.
but the shrinks will tell you "it's all jelly bellies" those are the hundreds of different colors of expensive jellybeans. they don't know which color goes with which person. then when you have to add another drug to the individual's condition it only makes the odds that more fucked.
so for you out there making fun of this and that. i must say i think that you are either very bored, in-expierenced, or maybe just smarter than me.
reese
Posted by joy on September 7, 2002, at 22:01:14
In reply to WHAT is wrong with some of you??????, posted by reese1 on September 7, 2002, at 19:02:11
Your post seems so sad. I don't know what to say; have you ever thought about ECT as a last resort? Just do the best you can. There are all kinds of people out there, some are insensitive and controlling. You are still you no matter what happened and you are still young enough to have a life no matter what you think at this time.
Joy
Posted by fairnymph on September 7, 2002, at 23:14:27
In reply to Ecstasy and the use of Benadryl the next morning, posted by alberto on August 31, 2002, at 0:50:18
> Does anyone know whether it is safe to use benadryl to counter the effects of using ecstasy? If you use ecstasy late into the night and then are unable to sleep at, say, 7 am, is it safe to use benadryl as a method of being able to sleep? I cannot seem to find anything that addresses this.
Yes, it is safe to use benadryl (or something like nyquil or tylenol pm) on the MDMA comedown.
However, it is ideal to use a benzo such as valium, klonopin, xanax, ativan etc -- a benzo works much better.
After the benzos, other prescription sleep/hypnotic meds like ambien, sonata, seroquel, or even stuff like remeron or trazadone are better than the OTC stuff.
In the future, you might want to ask questions of this nature at www.bluelight.nu -- you'll recieve far less criticism.
I must say I am a little....shocked...by the strength of some of the responses. Ah well, to each his own.
Btw, the advice given on taking SSRIs and antioxidants following MDMA use is wise. It can substantially attenuate neurotoxicity.
~fairnymph
Posted by beardedlady on September 8, 2002, at 6:17:12
In reply to WHAT is wrong with some of you??????, posted by reese1 on September 7, 2002, at 19:02:11
Yes, there are a few folks here who would like to tell you what's best for you, and not merely what's best for them or what has worked best for them in the past. And some of them are determined to tell you about it in a way that seems designed to make you feel like a lesser person.
But you needn't, because your real-life experiences trump anyone's personal moral code. Just keep on trying to find what will bring you peace in this world and at least take pride in the fact that you know the emperors are naked.
I am sorry about your plight and wish you luck.
beardy
Posted by shar on September 8, 2002, at 17:25:50
In reply to WHAT is wrong with some of you??????, posted by reese1 on September 7, 2002, at 19:02:11
'So if someone came up to me from NYU or Stanford or wherever and would have a clinical drug trial for ecstacy to treat depression how could i say no?'
There is a difference, to me, between a controlled clinical trial conducted by professionals at a reputable institution with appropriate monitoring and controls, and informed consent of participants---and recreational drug use in which people (mostly kids) don't necessarily have info on the pros and cons of usage, nor much control over the quality of the product they obtain, nor much idea about dosage and contraindications, nor any age limits on usage, and the targeted age group is probably one in which decision making and self-care skills are still developing. One of the youngsters I watched go down the drain with illegal drugs was my son.
Your analysis of the process of treating depression and other mental illnesses is pretty accurate as far as I'm concerned, everyone is flying by the seat of their pants and some do it better than others.
Shar
> what i'm about to say has nothing to do with a majority of the posts that i read about ecstacy. most of what was stated about ecstacy is pretty much factual information, it might be old, but it is true and there still is a small movement, just like any movement, that would very much like to see MDMA used for POST DRAMATIC STREES CASES AND WITH RAPE CASES for two examples.
>
> but what scared and pissed me off the most were the people who had the time and energy to talk shit about how stupid these doctors must be for prescribing this party rave drug.
>
> i know from my position, now just turning 34, and for ten years now taken every possible medication that is legal, alone, combined, plethora of hospitalizations, etc etc. my life is pretty much done. when i was thirteen i was number 1 in california in tennis. in 1992 i was voted best actor in Chicago. now i'm waiting to get on Disability. I no longer hope. I no longer dream. I no longer can imagine what i look like.
>
> So if someone came up to me from NYU or Stanford or wherever and would have a clinical drug trial for ecstacy to treat depression how could i say no? you can scream and scream but i can not under any reasoning say no to that. what do i have to lose or more importantly what might i have to gain? a nice day. and you can look down on me for that.
>
> the same goes with opiate type drugs?
>
> such as buprenex?
>
> or whatever
>
> it is a sad state that when you graduate to the psychiatric world of the united states, you hit first grade with prozac then instead of going forward as in school you do a u-turn. moving what you think is forward- taking wellbutrin, effexor, lithium, depakote, neurontin, zyprexa, adderal, but then the joke becomes obvios where do the doctors go when the future runs dry?
>
> backwards. where do they go first. those reject drugs they never thought would be used again. you know which ones. The MAO'S. Try some Nardil, then Parnate. then when that doesn't work were gonna take your hand and take you further back. don't listen to what you've heard. it's not painful. you won't feel a thing. it will only take between 6 to 12 sessions. it has the best cure ratio. so where are you know. your hooked to your toe waiting for the seizure to hit to get your first jolt of ECT
>
> so who is who to say what is good and what is bad?
>
> what is offered today is much more on the side of the joke than on the side of being serious.
>
> psychiatrist, and an honest one will admit this to you, they know this much about anti-depressents, bi-polor drugs- which sadly are all used by accident. valproic acid was not initially designed for manic depression but like the rest for seizures.
>
> but the shrinks will tell you "it's all jelly bellies" those are the hundreds of different colors of expensive jellybeans. they don't know which color goes with which person. then when you have to add another drug to the individual's condition it only makes the odds that more fucked.
>
> so for you out there making fun of this and that. i must say i think that you are either very bored, in-expierenced, or maybe just smarter than me.
>
> reese
Posted by wcfrench on September 8, 2002, at 21:57:05
In reply to Re: WHAT is wrong with some of you?????? » reese1, posted by shar on September 8, 2002, at 17:25:50
Well said.
Posted by jay60 on September 10, 2002, at 10:48:14
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by ZyprexaNumbTongue on September 6, 2002, at 15:57:56
Zyprexa Numb Tongue
I hope you have private health insurance. I wouldnt support using taxpayer money to put you on medicaid or welfare to pay your bills. That would be morally wrong. You should become homeless before you are allowed to go on medicaid/welfare. there is a good reason why poeple kick the shit out of assholes like you!!! I sure dont want my tax money going to help you After someone has enough of your self-righteous bull shit and bashes your head in.. I would much rather help Alberto. You probably don't even pay taxes.
P.S Nice job of plagiarizing on your wonderful sinner speech, that really shows what kind of loser you really are.
jay60Alberto, its a free country. While ecstasy is illegal, obviously you still sound as if you are bent on doing it. All I have to say to you is if you do X and mess yourself up, I hope you have private health insurance. I wouldnt support using taxpayer money to put you on medicaid or welfare to pay your bills. That would be morally wrong. You should become homeless before you are allowed to go on medicaid/welfare. There are good reasons why ecstasy is illegal Alberto.
Your drug experiments will most likely sooner or later land you in some hospital somewhere, costing lots of money. Again, if it was up to me Id let you suffer rather than pay for it with my taxpayer money. I hope you have a rich daddy who could shell out the hard cash for drug rehab, cause I sure as hell dont want to help you.
There are many people on this board who are living very clean cut lives, who still cannot get out of mental illness despite all the work they put into it. Then someone like yourself comes along asking if its safe to take X. Thats just the most stupid question for a board like this. Why Dr. Bob tolerates questions and posters like yourself is way beyond me. Its not fair for someone like you to ask about ecstasy on here, when some on here are disabled and cant get out of severe depression and have never touched illegal drugs.
Please dont scramble your brain chemistry with X, cause if you do, my attitude to you is TOUGH SHIT, asshole.
Good luck.
Zyprexa Numb Tongue
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 10, 2002, at 18:33:52
In reply to Re: Please be civil, posted by jay60 on September 10, 2002, at 10:48:14
> I wouldnt support using taxpayer money to put you on medicaid or welfare to pay your bills. That would be morally wrong. You should become homeless before you are allowed to go on medicaid/welfare...
You've already been asked to be civil, so I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
This is the end of the thread.
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