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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:49:24
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
i agree with some of what you say. and so what if many people on this forum complain about various problems with these medications? the fact is that most of the people who are helped by these meds with very few problems do not post. Simply because they are busy living their happy and restored lives.> Hi omega man,
>
> It may be possible for you to use illegal drugs without a problem but that doesn't mean this is true for the population in general. In my opinion, pushing this idea of "safe" drug use could only affect the general population in a negative way. Take the following excerpt from a paper about MDMA, for example:
>
> "Apart from the small number of people who have reported improvement or resolution of emotional or personality problems after the use of MDMA in psychotherapy, the long-term effects are virtually all adverse ones. They are all thought to arise from a neurotoxic action of the methylenedioxy derivatives of the amphetamines."
> (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11599334&dopt=Abstract)
>
> This does not support what you are saying. Yes, ecstasy feels good, but for the majority that's not the same as having real benefit and without great risk. Where is the data to support what you are saying? Similar claims were once made about LSD being useful for patients in therapy, but in at least one study no lasting benefit was found in a 10 year follow-up study of such patients. There is plenty of data that supports the safety and efficacy of effexor. I know the United States is full of politics and the drug companies are only in it for the money, but we still go by the data and get things right most of the time.
>
> Maybe the turnover here in psycho-babble is a bad sign, but maybe it's a good sign, too. Show me the data that supports the idea that more people die from the "cocktails" prescribed than ecstasy or heroin use and I may change my mind about things. I don't mean to come across as saying these drugs are "evil" because I certainly don't think that. I mean, if any given chemical happens to improve the quality of life for someone with a horrible prognosis I think they should have legal access to it. But I can see how having such laws is a very tricky business.
>
> Jon
>
> p.s. I don't think tapering drugs when you discontinue them is a marketing ploy. Believe me, I hardly taper when I stop a drug and almost always suffer for it ;)
Posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:53:18
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » JonW, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 17:48:53
extacy a good treatment? uh sure, in the short term. that short period you are on it. then in return you get brain damage and increased depression due to seratonin burnout. extacy is a horrible disgusting drug.
> what i'm trying to say is that prescribed drugs tend to have no fun effects ...which can enhance non-clinincal creative pursuits..although many do..it tends to be the illegal ones which have this quality..but to me the line gets blurred..I'll put omega 3 on top of my list as a mixer for many drugs...in fact I won't do some class A drugs without omega3 to offset the Neural burnout...along with good eating, exercise having a creative life and lots of fresh air and friends who look out for you...perhaps having all the dimensions that constitute a healthy life help support this creative non-abusive dabbling..
>
> put it this way I have certain rules regarding certain drug...well for every drug really...
>
> Heroin-expect a 2 week recovery before you get back to the energy state you had previously to taking it..and thats for one time use..also that rules applies to MDMA..
>
> Prozac-keep the diet bland and put plenty of time aside for sleep.
>
> Omega3-only take before sleeping or risk facial paralysis.
>
> and so on for about 12 drugs I have each with its own "spell" or use ..
>
> with such variety and the drugs being slave to real living purpose..I find thats the key...and when I see the posts here its scary how slaved people are ...so I wonder why don't drug companies come up with developing one time one hit remedies...which I believe MDMA has the potential to be along with an approved psycotherapy programme...
>
> I don't believe drug companies try to fool us...I'm a non-conspiracist...but certain structures in drug development occur because they are a product of business interest...
>
> A one time one hit cure would never cover the development costs so it make you wonder if anybody is even trying or able to get the grants to research this.
>
> I suppose i'm talking about gene switching drugs..which read the profile from your DNA to see what transmitter cocktail you have and just switching in the healthier sequence..and thats it..
>
> I would hope this is being researched because the money would still be there in providing the individual service, but we'll probably have to wait for some organization to get innovative and do this before the big companies show any sign of wanting to stop selling us "one size fits all, take em every day bullets"
Posted by skills on June 5, 2002, at 17:56:32
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
omegaman i could not have put it better myself. Shame some people do not have the knowledge to blow off the blinkered views of a pharmacutically confused society, far better suited to the mid-twentieth century when these substances first became widely avalible to the masses.
Posted by jonh kimble on June 5, 2002, at 17:57:28
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
Very interesting stuff, and its good to be back. Many good points here, and i just wanted to add my 2 cents.
being in high school, as i am, certainly brings its temptations for drug experimentation. cannabis brought great self awarness. i hate to say it, but its true. like i can step above my life and view everything that goes on in a different (and perhaps more truthful) view point. only problem is cannabis makes my social phobia go thru the roof. hallucinogins did same with both, only more so.
why is it so bad to experience something in an altered state. these are chemicals effecting your brain, true, but every moment of every day the way we are is affected by chemicals in our brains. and who would know better than the people on this board. i dont mean to sound harsh, but is this not so?
obviously these drugs have there negatives, but they also have there pros. i have to say that i was responsible with my useage, but many people are not. whether or not greater education would help this i dont know. but like a prievious post said, its sad that we lock people away when they abuse drugs when we should get them help. get the problem at the roots. if biochemical abnormalities seem most likely, maybe psychiatric drugs would be the answer. if someone lost a loved one, maybe counselling would be best. but to give people who are suffering more suffering seems illogical. just my thoughts.
jon
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 18:02:28
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:53:18
When I need a quick AD hit I find the withdrawal from Ectasy on a par with effexor...usually the deciding factor is do I want to do it a few times..then I'll go with the effexor...but effexor is a bit more numbing and lacks the transmitter hit to get the trip required to exume an emotional trauma from you in a day....very handy when something really heavy happens and you still have to perform properly in a work situation where understanding is not aviliable and results are what counts.
Posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 18:14:28
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » omega man, posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 15:58:09
I seem to be seeing illegal drugs as not differing from one another.
I think MJ should be legalized or very decriminalized for responsible people over 21.
The government is building prisons like Starbuck's and should be putting the money into research and growing.
_______I think many laws about drugs like Cannnibis LSD and MDMA only exist because its an unknown quantity with no practical use.
_______Marijuana has been proven to help Glaucoma, Aids wasting, cancer patients, etc. No practical use? It would put the family farmer back in business but the government doesn't want that.
Low THC hemp has 100's of uses.
America is making criminals out of regular folks who had an ounce of pot at the wrong time. For the gentleman above who can't enjoy his music anymore, well, don't go to your pdoc, smoke a spliff. I guarantee results.
For those who think pot makes you stupid, you might glance at the board of directors at NORML.
Carl Sagan's widow for one.
Pot has never been proven to be a gateway drug and the casual user ought to be able to grow for his own consumption, they already are.
It's just amazing to me that reefer madness is still alive and well. Recently, the mayor of NYC admitted to liking pot but he's busting the less fortunate at the same break-neck speed Guliani was. Pot arrest per year under the ex-mayor went from 2000 to 50,000! These aren't, for the vast majority, big time dealers.
If you legalize it and do it right, you take the syndicates out of it. I believe the UK and Canada are ahead of us on this.
I grew up raising alcoholics, my mom was a very low-bottom drunk when I was a kid. She got sober after I had left home. Alcohol is SO much worse than pot, there's no comparison..none. Health wise, traffic fatality wise, domestic abuse wise.
Cigarettes, I smoke, are far worse than pot.
The gov. is in so deep w/ tobacco and alcohol lobbyist and the companies they represent, that pot gets stepped on.
I'm not advocating pot use but I would damn sure rather have an occasional joint, sit back and chat w/ friends than to have alcohol get a grip on me. I've seen both sides up close and real and it's a damn shame that this country can't see it.
You have no idea how many pot smokers you work with on a daily basis and will never know it. But I can knock off an alcoholic within 1 minute of meeting them.
Crime has decreased in Amsterdam with the look the other way pot policy they have. Their research shows positive not negative results. Not to mention tourism out the ass.
Things won't change at all or it will be and has been agonizingly slow. Our President was a coke head, his daughters here in Austin, one especially, is already an alcoholic judging by her behavior. The Prez's brother in Florida has a daughter writing scripts for herself and getting busted.
I work in government and there are some very high level stoners. It's like millions and millions of American's in positions of power use it but can't speak up because of the 'stigma'. AAAARRRGGGGGGGGGG!
Okay, a few stoners may have car accidents but they will only be going 14 miles an hour on the freeway.Phil
Posted by jonh kimble on June 5, 2002, at 18:31:57
In reply to Jon: Trust me, Oracle has the data..plus.., posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 18:14:28
yes, why are illegal drugs all considered the same? i myself find pot makes my social phobia increase, but if you enjoy it, use it responsibly(not while driving 120 in a playground zone, but pot tends to make you drive slower than usual anyway) then i would say that there should be no problem. i think pot legalization is being slowed here in canada because of u.s. pressure. too bad.
one other thing i wanted to say, many people who abuse drugs are depressed. i know not every one but many. i dont think coke and booze are the best way to go by any means, but for someone who would other wise have killed themselves or living in missery 24/7, then i say this is definetly worse.
jon
Posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 18:33:16
In reply to Jon: Trust me, Oracle has the data..plus.., posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 18:14:28
Hi Phil,
I'm confused about what you meant by the title of your last post? I don't think I ever posted anything to Oracle, but I'm also confused in general because I'm a very confused individual? ;)
I completely agree with your post and couldn't have said it better myself! I don't understand why pot is illegal and just in case my previous posts were misleading I want to clear that up. If it were up to me alcohol would be illegal and pot would be legal. However, I definitely don't have this liberal of a view of ecstasy or heroin. Anyway, I'm still confused... :)
Jon
Posted by oracle on June 5, 2002, at 18:39:49
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post) » oracle, posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:44:34
> yes they do. but that doesn't remove the fact that illegal drugs do far more harm than good. you need to look at the big picture. not just yourself. you want the whole world messed up on drugs?
Sorry, I do not get the "not just yourself" referance.
The world IS messed up on drugs. The war on drugs has failed. The Dutch have a system that works. They have been dealing with serious drug issues far longer that the US. I suggest you look the that "big picture"
Posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 18:47:49
In reply to Re: Liberal thinking ? (very long post)Everyone » adamie, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 18:02:28
omega man,
It's interesting because I read on another site that effexor is a distant cousin of ecstasy. I don't know how much truth there is to that, though.
Jon
> When I need a quick AD hit I find the withdrawal from Ectasy on a par with effexor...usually the deciding factor is do I want to do it a few times..then I'll go with the effexor...but effexor is a bit more numbing and lacks the transmitter hit to get the trip required to exume an emotional trauma from you in a day....very handy when something really heavy happens and you still have to perform properly in a work situation where understanding is not aviliable and results are what counts.
Posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 19:22:44
In reply to Phil: I'm confused...., posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 18:33:16
As I was reading your post mixed with anothers, I got confused then realized I had dropped a huge burning ash on my shirt but I wanted to answer someone just didn't know who. Everyone at work today was 'off' as was I. Uh, anyway, sorry.
Phil
Posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 19:27:01
In reply to Re: I'm sorry Jon.., posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 19:22:44
Posted by beardedlady on June 5, 2002, at 19:42:56
In reply to Re: It's illegal to take prescription drugs... » beardedlady, posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:41:03
[my previous post below]
> > that aren't prescribed to you. It's illegal to give your prescription drugs to someone else, even if that person has a prescription for it. Are those things evil too? Or is self-medication okay, as long as it's with medicine sold at the pharmacy?-----
You didn't answer my question, so maybe you missed it. I didn't ask you whether you believed illegal drugs or their users are evil. I asked you about the double standard. If illegal drugs are bad, then taking prescription drugs for which you have no prescription is equally bad.Self-medication is self-medication. And if you think my smoking pot will influence others and cause them to do the same (and I disagree; you haven't been influenced to do so), then someone else taking a friend's Neurontin without a prescription is likely to have the same effect.
beardy : )>
Posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 21:17:35
In reply to Re: It's illegal to take prescription drugs... » adamie, posted by beardedlady on June 5, 2002, at 19:42:56
self medicating with legal drugs is far different than self medication from illegal type. those prescription medications are safe compared to that extasy trash and whatever else. the prescription meds are meant to treat our illnesses.> You didn't answer my question, so maybe you missed it. I didn't ask you whether you believed illegal drugs or their users are evil. I asked you about the double standard. If illegal drugs are bad, then taking prescription drugs for which you have no prescription is equally bad.
>
> Self-medication is self-medication. And if you think my smoking pot will influence others and cause them to do the same (and I disagree; you haven't been influenced to do so), then someone else taking a friend's Neurontin without a prescription is likely to have the same effect.
>
> beardy : )>
Posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 21:20:38
In reply to Jon: Trust me, Oracle has the data..plus.., posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 18:14:28
sure pot can help cancer patients and a few other very specific sets of people but those are the uses. Not recreation. All those people who want it legalized are 98% people who just want to get high. the other 2% actually want it for medical reasons. so you can throw that entire arguement out the window. it's all about selfishness and not caring how the drugs ruin society. so many artificial damaged minds.
Posted by crepuscular on June 5, 2002, at 22:31:31
In reply to Liberal thinking ? (very long post), posted by omega man on June 3, 2002, at 22:38:08
Recently, (in Michigan I think) there was legislation proposed to ban splitting ones tongue. Apparently some masochistic freaks want to have reptilian tongues and this trend is spreading in freaky subcultures. The grounds for the legislation were that speech problems and nerve damage might result.
Now, as far I'm concerned, you might as well legislate against obesity because it causes early onset diabetes, heart disease, etc.
I oppose such legislation. Where does it stop? How could it possibly be enforced?
As an American, I find *any* law restricting what I can do with my body, state of consciousness, etc. completely odious. The flip side of this freedom is to have a fully developed concern for your fellow human - not hurting them through your actions. That's the trade-off.
So I'm sorry, but I simply can't abide by drug legislation. It doesn't work, it is a social engineering failure. Black markets for drugs exist inside prisons for God's sake.
Where are the lowest STD and teen drug use rates in the world? The Netherlands, where even hard drugs are essentially decriminalized.
I don't take illegal drugs, but someday I'd like to try mushrooms or mescaline (if only I could find them!) The descriptions in literature are interesting to me and seem like valid psychological explorations when done intelligently. These drugs don't seem all that dangerous. Certainly less so than alcohol or cigarettes. But even if they were, it's my right to investigate. Rock climbing is dangerous.
So which one of you is going to say I can't do this before I die? What gives anybody the right to limit my personal freedom?
One word: Taliban.
It's a very slippery slope.
Posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 22:58:07
In reply to Re: Tuff to say, posted by jonh kimble on June 5, 2002, at 17:57:28
I find drugs alone pretty useless..just a chemical shift..but to squew reality...play about with time..in that sometimes we have pressure to think dynamically..say an opportunity arises...
if you don't abuse the drugs and just have them somehwhere for the right moment..then each drug is like its own little "spell" you can use..allowing you to open little doors..or if stress whacks you out the blue it does not have to close you down for a week...I managed to grieve and vent my frustration when my grandfather died very very quickly because I had the drugs to hand..for that purpose...mainly I took Ectasy for the time when we had to say goodbye ..so he would feel everything I had...because he had so little time taking E helped me say everything in a very quick space.
Drugs give me freedom and control to have a new kind of mental life..I have a dozen favourites and 3 of them aint legal.I don't let Pdocs tell me what drugs to take or when..but thats because I live in the UK..where they have to follow strict and out of date practise...luckily my mothers a privately trained Pdoc so maybe that helps me ...
Posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 23:08:26
In reply to Re: Tuff to say » jonh kimble, posted by omega man on June 5, 2002, at 22:58:07
Convenient mother. Has she ever read this board?
Posted by JonW on June 5, 2002, at 23:24:55
In reply to Yes! To Super Liberal thinking , posted by crepuscular on June 5, 2002, at 22:31:31
> So which one of you is going to say I can't do this before I die? What gives anybody the right to limit my personal freedom?
>
> One word: Taliban.
>
> It's a very slippery slope.Hi crepuscular,
I think you've made an awfully big leap! I, for one, lean toward agreeing with you and saying that you should be able to do whatever you want so long as it doesn't hurt me or anyone other than yourself. However, I think it becomes a tricky business when deciding what should be the law. I don't think this is a black and white issue. If you have a daughter and are always drunk and high you will have impacted her life as well as your own. How does this play into the whole personal freedom thing? How do we decide what's best for society?
Jon
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 5, 2002, at 23:30:10
In reply to Re: It's illegal to take prescription drugs... » beardedlady, posted by adamie on June 5, 2002, at 17:41:03
> so yes the illegal drug users are evil... how would you feel if you had a son taking heroin? it's disgusting. and the general population is too. which can be clearly seen here.
Please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory or put them down, thanks.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, or complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by Zo on June 5, 2002, at 23:50:55
In reply to Yes! To Super Liberal thinking , posted by crepuscular on June 5, 2002, at 22:31:31
Posted by omega man on June 6, 2002, at 0:12:32
In reply to Re: Tuff to say » omega man, posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 23:08:26
Shes very old fashioned...no PC...no net...she seems to keep up to date fine without it..and always knows whats going on...
maybe shes here just now with a hidden laptop and GSM card...maybe shes Dr bob !!
maybe i'm being silly ...
Posted by oracle on June 6, 2002, at 10:40:14
In reply to oracle airlines now boarding for Amsterdam 8) (nm), posted by Phil on June 5, 2002, at 19:27:01
Phil,
I have never started if I do or don't do drugs.
Actually I have posted very little here. You seem to be assuming things about me. Please stop. If you wish to enter into this discussion, please do not assume things about me.
Posted by Phil on June 6, 2002, at 12:22:40
In reply to Re: oracle airlines (Attn Dr BOB), posted by oracle on June 6, 2002, at 10:40:14
oracle, my apologies. I thought you were someone I knew posting under a different handle. I thought I had read that recently.
The thing I assumed is that you were someone else who used to be quite open about it.
Glad you straightened me out.
If I choose to enter a discussion, it won't come up again.
Should have verified my info, sorry.
Posted by Phil on June 6, 2002, at 12:32:39
In reply to Re: oracle airlines (Attn Dr BOB) » oracle, posted by Phil on June 6, 2002, at 12:22:40
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