![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 46 to 70 of 101. Go back in thread:
Posted by davex on March 21, 2002, at 19:16:03
In reply to Re: SAM-e Induced Hypomania » davex, posted by Ron Hill on March 21, 2002, at 13:07:47
Hi, excuse me for my awful english, but i think you could understand me anyway.
Ron, I'm on sam-e since last month, and i've started going on 800 mg/d.
I began to feel first effects after only few days, the effects seems to have stabilized after two weeks, but i now think the there is a slowly enhance week by week and even actually it happends (1200 mg/d).
For me the effectiveness of sam-e has been the best i have ever reported: I was on every kind of Ad's with no significative right effects and heavy side-effects (dizzy, drowsy, weakness,...).
If i realize that on sam-e i have no side effects at all i must say that sam-e for me was not comparable to another AD.Bearded, I've read a lot of report in use of B Vitamins for best effect of Sam-e.
My daily protocol is this:
B1 250 mg
B6 250 mg
B12 500 mcg
Folic acid 400 mcg.Bye
> > i'm actually on 1200 mg/d SAM-e from few days, and takeing SAM-e 800 mg/d from more than a week.
> > I've never felt Hipomania or other symphtoms like this.
> > I'm quite more euphoric aenergic and motivated, but these are only right effects.
> > I think this cause i'm not bipolar, never been hipomaniacal but only pure depressed.
> -------------------------------
>
> Dave,
>
> Thanks for your input. How long have you been taking SAM-e? Did you start at 800 mg/day?Overall, how would you rate the effectiveness of SAM-e for the treatment of depression? I assume this is the reason you are taking it.
>
> -- Ron
>
> P.S. Your english isn't great, but it's a lot better than my italian!
Posted by Ron Hill on March 21, 2002, at 21:04:24
In reply to WONDER SAM-e, no more SSRI's and TCA's Zombi!, posted by SteveS on March 21, 2002, at 13:02:08
Steve,
Your story is almost exactly the same as mine! SAM-e is a life saver. Thanks for posting. I think it is our duty to help others now that we are well.
-- Ron
---------------------------------------------> Hi to everybody,
> these are my personal impressions, but for me
> Sam-e was a life safer.
> I'm a pure depressed, no anxious, sometimes i prayed to be a little anxiuos, cause i didn't feel interest, energy...nothing (good or bad) seemed to be important for me.
> I began to go on SSRIs (large number of them) and i felt worst: I felt like a was a zombie!
> No enhanced mood, no less depression, no more energy and desires, on the contrary they erased my left (low) energy.
> Do not speak about TCA trials at all: a disaster!
> I had no more energy to live, to work, to ride...i only would like to go to bed and to sleep! I layed in bed during the day too and i hated everyone and everything (even on Effexor heavy side-effects!!).
> A month ago my pdoc spoke to me about a natural antidepressant, not well known, but very promising for every kind of depression: Sam-e.
> I was a little sceptic, but i decided to give it a try.
> I began at 400 than 800 and now at 1200 mg/d.
> Since from the first days i noticed excellent effects:
> my mood for the first time get better, my energy increased, i began to see the things that i do in a different way: I wanna act, rise up and work, talk, meet friends, write posts: to do something, doesn't matter what, but to do something!
> I once was isolated from people, now i wanna go out and meet somebody....everything seems to be a little lovable.
> I foud out that i think about sex, when during the passed months i women didn't mean nothing for me.
> I feel more active, my view is focused and i feel "the depth in the things and in environment around me" (i don't know if you can understand what i mean).
> I lost part of my negative thoughts, once i wanna die ten times a day, now sometimes i wanna think about future projects, and this is marvelous for me.
> I know that these are little steps, but for me is a lot. It is just enough to think about the heavy side effects once i reported on AD, and now to not have NO ONE SIDE EFFECT AT ALL!
> I think that at the end Sam-e act like activant and antidepressant at the same time.
> The only problem is his cost, but no one cost is too much for the life it gave me back.
> This is my experience and i know that it could not be the same for everybody, but for me SAM-e was an extraordinary revelation.
> I think that we must continue to speak about this extraordinary med, write posts, let people know everything possible about this amazing chance.
> I will surely post again, don't forget to continue to post!
> Bye
Posted by BarbaraCat on March 22, 2002, at 1:19:00
In reply to WONDER SAM-e, no more SSRI's and TCA's Zombi!, posted by SteveS on March 21, 2002, at 13:02:08
That is so wonderful for you. What a great enthusiastic reply. I take 400 mg. along with a bunch of other SSRI's and lithium and I find that SAM-e energizes me, kind of like shining more light on things. I do have anxiety with my depression, so I haven't wanted to take more, but your post has inspired me to try. Also, I like that it's also a great anti-oxidant and liver support.
I know exactly what you mean about the total lack of motivation and disinterest to do anything. Everything's is 'what's the use', or 'I just don't wanna'. Now that my meds are kicking in, it's like coming alive again. There is just a natural flow to things, and interests just bubble up instead of everything being a huge burden.
You might know this already, but Costco has the cheapest prices I've found. 80 tablets for $40.
Posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2002, at 1:36:28
In reply to Re: SAM-eLizzy G., posted by colin wallace on March 21, 2002, at 15:43:15
Colin,
Glad you had heart rate info for Lizzy.
Hey, I'm curious, what prompted you to increase your SAM-e dose to 400 mg for a day?
Just to let you know, the slight hypomania I spoke of yesterday resolved itself by lowering to 200 mg. That's where I plan to keep it 'till the cows come home (i.e. a long time).
Eventually, I think I will order some 100 mg tablets from the web site you gave us and try the split dose thing. I think it will even out the effect over the day a little better. However, I ran out of SAM-e yesterday and, therefore, had to replenish my supply with 200 mg tablets. As it turned out, I happened into a sale at Costco; Eighty Nature Made brand 200 mg tabs for $35.99. Cool, that's ten bucks off the regular price which makes it less than fifty cents per tab.
-- Ron
-----------------------
> Hi Liz,
>
> I've suffered with very severe anxiety as an unpleasant little adjunct to my major depression-
> One thing I was also very concerned about at the time was an irregular , skipping heartbeat.I actually checked this out with a cardiologist (I was living in Taiwan- it was cheap!)and the percieved 'abnormality' was scarcely detectable, nothing to worry about, and most definitely attributable to the anxiety.My GP., and everything I have read confirms that MILD palpitations/fluttering heartbeats commonly accompany anxiety.Of themselves, they are no cause for concern.
> Also, anecdotally, I've read accounts of people taking sam-e who've experienced an elevated pulse rate shortly after administration.Again, this is said to be harmless.(I'll try and find the info. again if I can)>
> Seemingly, Sam-e can also cause anxiety/jitteriness when dosed too high, or when first taking it. Ron and I have both experienced this.This too is commonplace.
> My anxiety is now pretty much under control, but today I took 400mg (underestimating the added effects of Prozac!!) and went into an 'anxiety-agitation orbit' -semi panic actually...struggled to keep the lid on it for a while.Brought back unsavoury memories I'll tell ya.
> Without the prozac, I would have felt some slight jitteriness only.So it's back down to 200 mg for me aswell!!
>
> One thing though, as Ron rightly said, it wouldn't harm to get your GP. to stick a stethascope over your ticker, just for your peace of mind.(if he's even heard of Sam-e, I'll buy you a year's supply!!)
>
> Col.
Posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2002, at 2:44:26
In reply to Okay guys, I'm going out to buy some tonight (nm) » colin wallace, posted by IsoM on March 21, 2002, at 16:31:09
Isomer,
What is your dx? What meds do you currently take? What is your start-up plan and what is your long-term plan regarding incorporation of SAM-e into your med cocktail? In other words, do you plan to use SAM-e as an add-on or do you plan to use it as a replacement for an AD, for example? Does your pdoc know about your plans to take SAM-e? If not, do you think you should call him/her first?
May I make a couple suggestions and remind you of a couple of the "do's" and the "do not's"? For at least the first week, I suggest that you start out using SAM-e strictly as an add-on. Further, start at a low dose, say 200 mg/day, and move up slowly (if at all) based on how you feel.
DO:
1. Post your results
2. Take a good B-complex (e.g. B50 or B100) that has lots of B-6 and folic acid. Take a SUBLINGUAL (under the tongue) Bioactive B-12. Go to a good health food/vitamin store. I can not overemphasize the need for these vitamins, especially the sublingual bioactive B-12. We humans do not absorb B-12 efficiently when taken orally (down the hatch), so use the sublingual or give yourself a B-12 shot each morning. Without sufficient amounts of these B's in your body homocystiene will build up (not good!).
3. If possible, take the SAM-e on an empty stomach. If nausea is a problem, eat a small portion of food with it. Here is the schedule I use: Get out of bed, take prescription meds (Lithobid for me), drink coffee, make and eat healthy breakfast which always includes some protein, take vitamins (including B's), wait at least 30 minutes to an hour and then take 200 mg SAM-e.
DO NOT
1. Blame me if it doesn't work (blame Colin).
2. Forget the SUBLINGUAL Bioactive B-12!-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2002, at 3:54:03
In reply to One more Sam-E question--Ron, Colin?, posted by beardedlady on March 21, 2002, at 16:45:55
> 1.) Could this cure me of my chronic panic-induced insomnia (with panic being caused by the fear of yet another sleepless night)?
SAM-e serves as the methyl donor in the synthesis of various neurotransmitters within the body, including the neurotransmitter melatonin. As you know, melatonin is involved in regulating the body's sleep/wake cycle. For this reason, it is best to take the SAM-e early in the day, with no doses past about 5 pm. When I take SAM-e in accordance with these guidelines, SAM-e actually seems to enhance my sleep quality.
> 2.) Is it best to take it in the morning, and can I take it with my multi-vitamin and my mega B (which together have 800 mcg folic acid and a little bit of E and calcium and a dash of magnesium)? (Or do you need to know exactly what's in my vitamins to answer?)
Ms B. Lady, it’s late so if it is ok with you, please click the link below to read what I just wrote to IsoM because it answers your question #2. To personalize the previous post, please scratch out “Isomer” (a.k.a. IsoM) at every occurrence and in its place pencil in you name, “Ms. B. Lady” (a.k.a. beardedlady).
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020318/msgs/99413.html
> 3.) Can I still drink my 5:00 beer?
I depise anyone that is able to drink a couple of beers inspite the fact that he/she takes psyotropic medications. I lay in bed at night and dream of what it used to be like (prior to meds) to have the proverbial “3 beer effect” going on. To answer your question, I see no problem with the SAM-e and the beer, the question is, however, how does the alcohol affect your meds and how does the alcohol affect your disorder?
-- Ron
Posted by colin wallace on March 22, 2002, at 4:01:44
In reply to One more Sam-E question--Ron, Colin?, posted by beardedlady on March 21, 2002, at 16:45:55
Beardy,
Pain is a tricky one- all my depressive/ anxious symptoms originally stemmed from fibromyalgia, which as you may know is a nebulous condition, causing widespread muscle/joint pain-stiffness.
Not good for an athlete.
Sam-e relieved the stiffness/pain for me, simultaneously with a lifting of the depression.
At 400mg my aches etc. disappear (and I've tried high dose AD's, Anti-inflammatories etc., without success).That dose gets me a little hyper though!
After exercise, I would often experience painful or swollen joints.This no longer happens, and that ties in with Sam-e's reputed anti-inflammatory/analgaesic effects (it has been successfully trialed against prescription anti-inflammatories.It is also believed that fibromyalgia pain is brain/sleep mediated, and if that's the case, sam-e's uplifting effects and melatonin 'balancing' would account for the reduction in symptoms.So it really depends on the 'cause' of your pain.If there is inflammation, or even a psychosomatic/sleep disturbed element, then it may well help you too.
As for taking Sammy along with these vits and mins., my understanding is that basically, Sammy is best absorbed early on in the day on an empty stomach, and the vitamins taken with meals, as the body was designed to absorb nutrients from food.The B complex, ESSENTIAL, for the Sam-e re-methylation process, do not have to be taken at the same time as the sammy.Ron has posted details as to how (and why) they are best taken.You may want to leave it until after you've shaved.All the best,
Col.
Posted by lizzyg on March 22, 2002, at 4:06:47
In reply to Re: SAM-eLizzy G., posted by colin wallace on March 21, 2002, at 15:43:15
Colin and Ron
Many thanks for your feedback. I saw my GP this morning and - as you rightly predicted - she didn't have a clue about SAM-e. She almost had a fit when I suggested combining ADs ('we only like monotherapy') and was preaching about how benzos can give you withdrawal symptoms after just one week. So not satisfactory on that front.
She took my pulse and said it seemed OK, and that most heartbeat irregularities are benign, and mine is probably due to the anxiety. But shes's booked me in next week to have a blood test to check out my thyroid.
Like you, Colin, with me the anxiety goes hand-in-hand with the depression. I've found with TCAs that the anxiety went when the depression lifted, but that effect doesn't seem to be happening (yet?) with the SAM-e. Any other ideas of what I can do for the anxiety? (Ron - it's not irritability, but being unable to sit still and feeling panicked. At the moment, obsessing that my heart's about to give out at any moment!)
Thanks again
Lizzy
Posted by colin wallace on March 22, 2002, at 4:14:30
In reply to Re: SAM-eLizzy G. » colin wallace, posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2002, at 1:36:28
Hi Ron,
What prompted me? If I tell you that when I was in my teens, my nickname was 'Arnhem' (a beer too far....), that may best sum it up!!!
One's good, two must be better mentality.
(well, actually, I get more muscle pain/stiffness
reduction with 400mg, but if I can't get along with it after 4 1/2 months, I guess it's 200mg for me till the cows come home too.
Today, my head's still buzzing slightly, so I'll consider yesterdays 400mg adequate for today too.
Tomorrow's my prozac day.Drooling at the thought of it!!!!!! (plan is to keep with the prozac-only three per week, for as long as I can afford it.Read a medline article on other's who have benefitted from only 60 mg weekly.However, if my GP wants to insist on giving me free Zoloft, I may crumble and go with 12.5mg daily instead!)
It's a hoot ain't it?Col.
Posted by beardedlady on March 22, 2002, at 6:02:11
In reply to Re: One (no make that three) more Sam-E questions » beardedlady, posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2002, at 3:54:03
Ron:
I have to argue with you for just a second. Half an hour to an hour after that breakfast of yours? That's not an empty stomach!
I take my Serzone at bedtime, but I'm tapering off right now. So I'll be looking for a replacement. I have to take my B vitamins with food, so I'll take SAMe in the morning with my decaf coffee? Then I'll have breakfast an hour later and take the Bs. (Is adding a sublingual B12 to 12mcg worth of pill-form B12 going to be dangerous?)
Please don't hate me because I'm beertiful. I usually only drink one beer. I don't do it every day, but almost. (I like the taste. Bass.) Since I don't have depression, it doesn't counteract the Serzone; I take the lower anti-anxiety dose. Since I do have anxiety, it relaxes me some.
Thanks for your help.
the beertiful, beardtiful lady
Posted by beardedlady on March 22, 2002, at 6:03:53
In reply to Re: One more Sam-E question--Ron, Colin?, posted by colin wallace on March 22, 2002, at 4:01:44
It's okay, though; you answered my question. Thanks!
beardy : )>
P.S. Oh, I don't shave. I am proud of my full head of beard.
Posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2002, at 6:18:39
In reply to Re: SAM-eLizzy G. » colin wallace, posted by lizzyg on March 22, 2002, at 4:06:47
>I've found with TCAs that the anxiety went when the depression lifted, but that effect doesn't seem to be happening (yet?) with the SAM-e. Any other ideas of what I can do for the anxiety? (Ron - it's not irritability, but being unable to sit still and feeling panicked. At the moment, obsessing that my heart's about to give out at any moment!)
Lizzy, are you taking only SAM-e currently or are you also taking med(s)? I thought sure you said just SAM-e, but in your post you mention AD monotherapy in connection with your GP visit. If you are on meds, what are they?
You're taking 400 mg/day SAM-e, right? And it is helping the depression but not the anxiety, right? Are you fully satisfied with the level of antidepressant relief? In other words, are ya bustin' a gut rollin' in the isles laughin' with Colin and I, or are you just kinda getting by?
As far as the anxiety goes, there are a lot of people way more qualified than I on this board to address an anxiety med question. To me (layman) it sounds like it might be a GABA issue, in which case, I'd say try a benzo or maybe gabapentin (Neurontin), an AED used off label as a moodstabilizer. How about rigorous exercise to help in the relief of your anxiety? Helps me, how about you?
Forgive me Lizzy, but please tell me your dx again. I'm going to have to start a file on each person I talk to in order to keep their "vital statistics" (meds, dx, etc.) straight in my head. It's too difficult and time consuming to try to go back through old posts for this type of information.
Thanks for being redundant. Thanks for being redundant.
--Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2002, at 6:45:19
In reply to Sam-E questions--don't hate me cuz I'm beertiful! » Ron Hill, posted by beardedlady on March 22, 2002, at 6:02:11
> I have to argue with you for just a second. Half an hour to an hour after that breakfast of yours? That's not an empty stomach!
Ya, you're right. Instructions on box insert says minimum 30 minutes.
> I take my Serzone at bedtime, but I'm tapering off right now. So I'll be looking for a replacement. I have to take my B vitamins with food, so I'll take SAMe in the morning with my decaf coffee? Then I'll have breakfast an hour later and take the Bs. (Is adding a sublingual B12 to 12mcg worth of pill-form B12 going to be dangerous?)No, not dangerous at all because 11.99999999999999 mcg of the pill-form B-12 winds up going down the toilet as yellow urine.
> Please don't hate me because I'm beertiful. I usually only drink one beer. I don't do it every day, but almost. (I like the taste. Bass.) Since I don't have depression, it doesn't counteract the Serzone; I take the lower anti-anxiety dose. Since I do have anxiety, it relaxes me some.
Sounds good. Is anxiety your full dx? Why the Serzone taper if it's working for you? From what Lizzy G says, I'm not so sure SAM-e will successfully treat your anxiety disorder.
-- Ron
Posted by beardedlady on March 22, 2002, at 7:18:21
In reply to Re: Sam-E and Anxiety Disorder » beardedlady, posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2002, at 6:45:19
What's a full dx? Was it diagnosed? Yes, but it's totally related to sleep. I started not sleeping, I freaked out, I gave myself a panic disorder because I was scared I wouldn't be able to sleep. So it's that self-fulfilling prophecy. When you get anxious because you can't sleep, you can't sleep, and you stay anxious.
Serzone is, according to my pdoc, an anti-anxiety med at low doses (300) and an AD at high doses.
So the key to curing my panic is curing my insomnia, and if SAMe helps me use my energy wisely and lets me sleep at night (which the B vitamins seem to do!), I won't be worried into a panic about not sleeping.
As far as yellow urine goes, it sort of freaks me out because I'm a big water drinker, and it's usually pretty clear! So while I'm watching for signs of liver failure (dark yellow urine), I'm wondering if I'd even notice it!
beardy : )>
Posted by vincent on March 22, 2002, at 10:33:13
In reply to Re: Sam-E and Anxiety Disorder » Ron Hill, posted by beardedlady on March 22, 2002, at 7:18:21
Hi,
this is the most interesting thread on the board!
I began 20 days ago on sam-e and it was a revelation for me.
After all the heavy side effects of SSRI, sam-e renewed me to life.
1) It works in few days, since day #2 i began to feel more attentive and energized, in the following week it enhance my mood slowly but regulary.
Three weeks ago i wanna go to sleep, now i wanna go to the Gym!
2) It works without any side effects at all.
Dizzy? Drowsy? Somnolence?
What are these?????? (hehehe).
The only side effect i reported, but is not a disease for me, is elation: my mood enhanced so much that i am still attentive, energic ad alert at evening,....so i don't wanna to go to sleep.
So I use a verrrry small dosage of benzo to sleep.
Good luck and good health to evrybody and don't minimize efficacy of sam-e!!
Posted by colin wallace on March 22, 2002, at 11:17:42
In reply to Re: Sam-E and Anxiety Disorder » Ron Hill, posted by beardedlady on March 22, 2002, at 7:18:21
Just thought I'd mention that I first got my anxiety/panic under control with Remeron.This med. was wondrous for sleep and anxiety (I used to get nocturnal panic attacks, waking up suffocating etc.)It's sedating effects can linger throughout the day, and it took me at least a month to get get over the daytime lethargy.After that, I was able to take it at staggered daytime doses, without difficulty.
If anxiety/sleep were still troublesome for me, I'd happily go back on 15/30mg Remeron at night, and take my 200mg Sam-e in the morning, as it helps (me) with daytime alertness/energy.(BEERDY)> I saw a rheumatologist last year, when I was dx'd with fibromyalgia, and he recommended
beer and cannabis for relaxation !!!So swill that beer, it's officially good for us....(?)
Posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2002, at 11:45:41
In reply to Re: Sam-E and Anxiety Disorder » Ron Hill, posted by beardedlady on March 22, 2002, at 7:18:21
> What's a full dx?
A "full dx" is when the author of the post has been up all night and has become incapable of writing a coherent sentence. What I was trying to ask (and you have already answered, no) was: Have any other disorders been identified in addition to the anxiety disorder?
> Serzone is, according to my pdoc, an anti-anxiety med at low doses (300) and an AD at high doses.
Yes, but what does this have to do with the reason you are tapering off Serzone?
> So the key to curing my panic is curing my insomnia, and if SAM-e helps me use my energy wisely and lets me sleep at night (which the B vitamins seem to do!), I won't be worried into a panic about not sleeping.
SAM-e might help ease your insomnia, but it might not! SAM-e does a lot of cool stuff like improves mood, eases joint pain, and detoxifies the liver, to name a few. However, to my knowledge, SAM-e is not necessarily an excellent sleep aid. In fact, as I mentioned in an earlier post, if one takes it later than about 5 pm, not only is it not a sleep aid, it can CAUSE insomnia.
What or who gave you the impression that SAM-e is an appropriate treatment for insomnia? What does your pdoc think of the SAM-e trial? I feel sure that SAM-e will not harm you in any way, however, using it specifically to treat insomnia is, as I understand it, untried.
Why hasn't your pdoc prescribed either sleeping pills or benzos to combat the insomnia?. About a year ago or more, I had insomnia as a side effect to an AD trial. Therefore, I did some research, decided that I wanted to try the prescription sleep aid Sonata, and therefore, asked my pdoc to prescribe Sonata so that I could have some in my headboard to use on an as needed basis. It worked good and I still have half a bottle left in my headboard (although it's probably expired by now). Sleeping pills should not be used for more than a few weeks. But if it is as you say (insomnia causing panic), then maybe a couple weeks of good quality sleep could solve your problem. You could keep the remaining sleeping pills on hand for use on an infrequent, as needed basis.
I have zero experience with benzos, but, as I (layman) understand it, these too can be used to treat insomnia. Also you can do a search on the web (and on this site also) for the term "sleep hygiene" which is a set of rules (e.g. no sleeping during the day, etc) for the patient to follow in order to facilitate better quality sleep. I'm probably telling you a bunch of stuff that you already know and you're just eager for me to shut up.
Do you have the type of insomnia that causes you to wake up in the middle of the night and then preclude you from getting back to sleep, or do you have the kind of insomnia that makes it hard to fall asleep from the get go? Or do you have trouble with both? Also, how do you know that the key to curing your panic is to cure the insomnia (first). How do you know it is not the other way around (solve panic to cure insomnia)? What does the pdoc think, chicken or egg?
-- Ron
Posted by colin wallace on March 22, 2002, at 11:46:58
In reply to Sam-e was amazing for me: it worked in 2 days!, posted by vincent on March 22, 2002, at 10:33:13
How much do you take? Did you have a major depression, dysthmia, anxiety??
Glad it's working anyhow,Col.
Posted by vincent on March 22, 2002, at 13:04:16
In reply to Re: Sam-e was amazing for me: Vincent, posted by colin wallace on March 22, 2002, at 11:46:58
Hi Col and everybody,
I'm actually on 1200 mg/d (400 tree times a day).
I've began on 400+400 mg/d and it was already effective and after only 2 days.
I still use complex vitamine B (1,6,9,12) useful for well work of Sam-e.
You must know that i'm xxxtremely sensitive to SSRI, for an example, Paxil kills me, Remeron sink me into the grave, Effexor make me stay at bed most part of the day....but on sam-e i've no reported side effects at all.
The real only but very important side effect on same is.....elation,but i'm very glad about it!
Do you need other information? Ask me in this thread!
Bye Vince
Posted by vincent on March 22, 2002, at 13:10:18
In reply to Re: Sam-e was amazing for me: Vincent » colin wallace, posted by vincent on March 22, 2002, at 13:04:16
Posted by beardedlady on March 22, 2002, at 13:33:27
In reply to Re: Sam-E and Anxiety Disorder » beardedlady, posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2002, at 11:45:41
> Yes, but what does this have to do with the reason you are tapering off Serzone?
Oh, the liver thing. Serzone has that new black box, so I thought it best if I either switch to something else (but I dunno what) or try to live as I have for the 36 years before this happened to me.
> What or who gave you the impression that SAM-e is an appropriate treatment for insomnia? What does your pdoc think of the SAM-e trial? I feel sure that SAM-e will not harm you in any way, however, using it specifically to treat insomnia is, as I understand it, untried.No one gave me that impression. But I will try anything that's not a drug. And if it makes me feel good, maybe I won't worry so much about sleep.
> Why hasn't your pdoc prescribed either sleeping pills or benzos to combat the insomnia?
When this first happened three and a half years ago, we tried Ambien (one pill, one time), but I was so anxious I couldn't break through it, so it didn't work. Then we tried Xanax, which worked for short spurts of nap (but I was only on about .5 mgs!). Then we tried Zoloft and Xanax, and I got worse. Then we tried Trazodone and Xanax, and that worked for a month. Then we changed some timing, and it worked again for a month. Then we tried Serzone and quit the Xanax (yea! I hated it!), and my sleep returned to normal in about a week, and it hasn't stopped working.
Occasionally, when real life stuff interferes, I have breakthrough anxiety, and I use Sonata--a great drug (we discussed this before re: shelf life, which my pharmacist says is bunk because it's already months old in the pharmacy, and it has an expiration date of longer than a year on his bottle).
>
> Also you can do a search on the web (and on this site also) for the term "sleep hygiene" which is a set of rules (e.g. no sleeping during the day, etc) for the patient to follow in order to facilitate better quality sleep. I'm probably telling you a bunch of stuff that you already know and you're just eager for me to shut up.Yes. I know everything about it. I have great sleep hygiene. I never had this problem until my daughter quit nursing cold turkey the weekend before I started a new teaching job, which was right after my father-in-law's funeral!
> Do you have the type of insomnia that causes you to wake up in the middle of the night and then preclude you from getting back to sleep, or do you have the kind of insomnia that makes it hard to fall asleep from the get go?
It started while I was nursing with waking up at 2:00 a.m. and lying there until I fell asleep at 4:00. This happened maybe five times in four months. On the rare nights (rare now, anyway) that I can't fall back to sleep at all (I lie there in bed "resting" all night anyway because I often can get another three hours if I'm patient), I have trouble falling asleep the next night.
> Also, how do you know that the key to curing your panic is to cure the insomnia (first). How do you know it is not the other way around (solve panic to cure insomnia)? What does the pdoc think, chicken or egg?
It's obviously the insomnia that caused the panic. I forgot to add that I took a diet pill (phentermine) when she quit nursing. I was on them for about a month or two a year before I got pregnant, and they not only worked on my weight but made me feel happy and energetic, so I wanted that again after nursing a baby. But it gave me insomnia, and I stopped taking it. The insomnia didn't go away, so I started to panic that I wouldn't be able to take care of my daughter. I panicked because of sleep, and that's all.
Thanks for asking.
So the reason I'm thinking SAMe is that I might stop worrying if I feel good, which might let me rest at night once I'm off the Serzone (or on a really reduced dose). Otherwise, it might keep my liver healthy to counteract the possible liver toxicity of Serzone.
beardy : )>
Posted by beardedlady on March 22, 2002, at 13:41:22
In reply to Re: Sam-e was amazing for me: Vincent » colin wallace, posted by vincent on March 22, 2002, at 13:04:16
Vincent:
I have chronic insomnia. If I take this in the morning, do you think it will keep me up all night?
beardy : )>
Posted by vincent on March 22, 2002, at 19:08:42
In reply to Re: Sam-e was amazing for me » vincent, posted by beardedlady on March 22, 2002, at 13:41:22
Hi Beardy.
No I think sam-e used in the morning will not damage your night sleep at all.
My personal opinion is that sam-e has an activant effect cause it improves dopamine absorption into the cells.
My personal experience is that activant effect fade away within 6-8 hours (the dopamine cicle has the form of a bell), so i think you should sleep well taking sam-e in the morning.
But this is my personal experience and it could be different from me to you.
Bye
Posted by IsoM on March 22, 2002, at 19:14:51
In reply to Re: Sam-e and insomnia. » beardedlady, posted by vincent on March 22, 2002, at 19:08:42
Well, it looks like I won't be getting any SAM-e to try after all. Health Canada removed it from stores - don't know when this happened but I had seen it sold before here. Ordering over the internet is out as it's bloody expensive, then I pay exchange & shipping, which can almost double the cost.
I'll just make sure I keep my protein intake good & make sure I'm getting enough protein containing methionine. My B complex intake is already very good anyway. Ah well, considering all this, maybe it wouldn't have made a major difference, & the cost...
Posted by Ron Hill on March 22, 2002, at 21:25:37
In reply to oy vey! » Ron Hill, posted by beardedlady on March 22, 2002, at 13:33:27
Ms. Lady,
Thank you so much for taking the time to help me understand your case history. Having read your response, I have completely changed my mind. I think there is a very high probability that SAM-e will fix both your insomnia and your anxiety if you do the trial correctly. Sorry to have come off so negative before. I just did not have enough of your case history. Please read my responses to your answers. It’s kinda cluttered with 49 posts crammed into one, but you can figure it out.
> > Yes, but what does this have to do with the reason you are tapering off Serzone?
> Oh, the liver thing. Serzone has that new black box, so I thought it best if I either switch to something else (but I dunno what) or try to live as I have for the 36 years before this happened to me.My recommendation: Don't worry too much about those "lawyer (shark) TV adds". JohnX2 takes Serzone, and he has posted that he is not concerned about it. John seems to think it's a lot to do over nothing. Personally, I have not taken the time to look into it since it does not affect me directly. However, I would be willing to bet dollars to donuts that John has looked into this Serzone issue VERY extensively because he takes the stuff (and because he is John!). John knows a lot about meds. I'd trust his judgment unless you have something that shows without a doubt that Serzone is dangerous.
I'm like you, I'd rather be off all man made medications. But you write that the Serzone is working well. If it ain't broke don't fix it. If it were me, I'd keep the Serzone in place while ramping up the SAM-e. Do this for one week, and if all is well, begin to carefully wean yourself off Serzone.
> > What or who gave you the impression that SAM-e is an appropriate treatment for insomnia? What does your pdoc think of the SAM-e trial? I feel sure that SAM-e will not harm you in any way, however, using it specifically to treat insomnia is, as I understand it, untried.
> No one gave me that impression. But I will try anything that's not a drug. And if it makes me feel good, maybe I won't worry so much about sleep.I'm on your side now. Start with 200 mg/day, and take the dose in the am.
> > Why hasn't your pdoc prescribed either sleeping pills or benzos to combat the insomnia?
>
> When this first happened three and a half years ago, we tried Ambien (one pill, one time), but I was so anxious I couldn't break through it, so it didn't work. Then we tried Xanax, which worked for short spurts of nap (but I was only on about .5 mgs!). Then we tried Zoloft and Xanax, and I got worse. Then we tried Trazodone and Xanax, and that worked for a month. Then we changed some timing, and it worked again for a month. Then we tried Serzone and quit the Xanax (yea! I hated it!), and my sleep returned to normal in about a week, and it hasn't stopped working.Serzone is working for you. Do not throw it away too soon. To reiterate; ramp up the SAM-e first, then slowly taper the Serzone, reversing course is it ends up that you can't sleep without it.
> Occasionally, when real life stuff interferes, I have breakthrough anxiety, and I use Sonata--a great drug (we discussed this before re: shelf life, which my pharmacist says is bunk because it's already months old in the pharmacy, and it has an expiration date of longer than a year on his bottle).
Good. One more tool in the tool box if it is needed.
> > Also you can do a search on the web (and on this site also) for the term "sleep hygiene" which is a set of rules (e.g. no sleeping during the day, etc) for the patient to follow in order to facilitate better quality sleep. I'm probably telling you a bunch of stuff that you already know and you're just eager for me to shut up.
> Yes. I know everything about it. I have great sleep hygiene. I never had this problem until my daughter quit nursing cold turkey the weekend before I started a new teaching job, which was right after my father-in-law's funeral!
This is one of two important bits of information that made me change my mind regarding the probable effectiveness of SAM-e to treat your insomnia and anxiety. I now believe that your insomnia is due to low serotonin and not related to GABA. SAM-e is quite capable of increasing serotonin levels so you should be good to go.
> > Do you have the type of insomnia that causes you to wake up in the middle of the night and then preclude you from getting back to sleep, or do you have the kind of insomnia that makes it hard to fall asleep from the get go?
> It started while I was nursing with waking up at 2:00 a.m. and lying there until I fell asleep at 4:00. This happened maybe five times in four months. On the rare nights (rare now, anyway) that I can't fall back to sleep at all (I lie there in bed "resting" all night anyway because I often can get another three hours if I'm patient), I have trouble falling asleep the next night.This also sounds like low serotonin.
> > Also, how do you know that the key to curing your panic is to cure the insomnia (first). How do you know it is not the other way around (solve panic to cure insomnia)? What does the pdoc think, chicken or egg?
> It's obviously the insomnia that caused the panic. I forgot to add that I took a diet pill (phentermine) when she quit nursing. I was on them for about a month or two a year before I got pregnant, and they not only worked on my weight but made me feel happy and energetic, so I wanted that again after nursing a baby. But it gave me insomnia, and I stopped taking it. The insomnia didn't go away, so I started to panic that I wouldn't be able to take care of my daughter. I panicked because of sleep, and that's all.
Okay, I hear you now. Your reaction to the diet pill is the second important bit of information that made me change my mind regarding the probable effectiveness of SAM-e to treat your insomnia and anxiety. This diet pill story makes me think that you will benefit from a small boost of dopamine. And SAM-e can certainly do that.
> Thanks for asking.
I feel like I hurt your feelings with my last post. At the time, I needed more info. Thanks for filling me in. I'm sorry that I caused hurt. Forgive me?
> So the reason I'm thinking SAM-e is that I might stop worrying if I feel good, which might let me rest at night once I'm off the Serzone (or on a really reduced dose). Otherwise, it might keep my liver healthy to counteract the possible liver toxicity of Serzone.
One thing is for sure, we won't know unless you try the SAM-e. Have you bought it yet? What day do you plan to start the SAM-e trial? Please post your results daily. You have my best wishes and I will try to remember to pray for you daily this coming week.-- Ron
P.S. My wife teaches fourth grade at a public charter school. Are you still teaching?
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