![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 30, 2002, at 2:28:38
I take Klonopin in the morning for daytime social phobia but don't take it at bedtime because Klonopin does not help me sleep very well & I don't want to build up tolerance to the Klonopin by taking around the clock.
I was wondering what is the best to help you get to sleep- Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan? Once I fall asleep I usually stay asleep but I usually can't fall asleep until the sun comes up. I usually go to bed at 3 am & can fall asleep until about 6:30 am.
If Ambien & Sonata are not benzos then will they help prevent benzo tolerance to Klonopin by taking one of them instead of Klonopin at bedtime to help with sleep?
I've never taken Ativan- How does it compare w/ Klonopin?
Also, my muscles cramp up at night sometimes.
Posted by Bill L on January 30, 2002, at 7:33:47
In reply to Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan for insomnia?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 30, 2002, at 2:28:38
Ambien is very effective and well tolerated even in long term usage. It only works for about 4 hours but you said that you can generally stay asleep. I don't know much about Sonata.
> I take Klonopin in the morning for daytime social phobia but don't take it at bedtime because Klonopin does not help me sleep very well & I don't want to build up tolerance to the Klonopin by taking around the clock.
>
> I was wondering what is the best to help you get to sleep- Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan? Once I fall asleep I usually stay asleep but I usually can't fall asleep until the sun comes up. I usually go to bed at 3 am & can fall asleep until about 6:30 am.
>
> If Ambien & Sonata are not benzos then will they help prevent benzo tolerance to Klonopin by taking one of them instead of Klonopin at bedtime to help with sleep?
> I've never taken Ativan- How does it compare w/ Klonopin?
> Also, my muscles cramp up at night sometimes.
Posted by ivoovi on January 30, 2002, at 14:03:03
In reply to Re: Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan for insomnia?, posted by Bill L on January 30, 2002, at 7:33:47
I got vivid, scary hallucinations on Ambien. In retrospect they were cool, but at the time they scared me. I developed a tolerance to Ambien and would stay up a long time after dosing...then, in the dark, mysterious creatures and people appeared...Anyway, it worked really well for sleep, but I did develop a tolerance. (Had to take upwards of 2.5 pills instead of just 1)
Nighty night!
-Chris
Posted by Elizabeth on January 30, 2002, at 19:04:21
In reply to Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan for insomnia?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 30, 2002, at 2:28:38
People who take benzos for sleep every night are likely to develop tolerance to the sedative effect of the drug, even if they don't take it around-the-clock. In contrast, a lot of people can take Ambien for a very long time -- a couple of years, at least -- without becoming tolerant. This isn't universal, but tolerance is much rarer with Ambien than with the benzos.
The benzos (Ativan and Klonopin) have some muscle-relaxant effect that might help with your cramps. The main difference betweem the two is that Ativan is shorter-acting.
Ambien doesn't last very long; that's the main problem I had with it.
-elizabeth
Posted by therese desqueroux on January 30, 2002, at 19:04:24
In reply to Re: Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan for insomnia?, posted by ivoovi on January 30, 2002, at 14:03:03
I've tried all three and some others. Sonata was the weakest. Ambien, a little more potent, did not work either. For a while I took Estazolam, but felt too groggy in the morning. Then I was prescribed Ativan, one or, two, if necessary. Two was always necessary, and I didn't like the groggy feeling in the morning. Next I was switched from Ativan to Klonopin, which is a more powerful benzo. I take one at night when I'm not resisting taking my medications, which I still do, and perhaps always will.
I also take Klonopin in the day, and it is a more effective benzo for me than Ativan. If you're worried about the danger of dependence or addiction (as I always am), that's probably at least one good sign that you won't fall into that trap. All they do for me is relieve anxiety and help me get the sleep I require to function. The sensation they give is not at all pleasurable to me. I still can't get over the idea that these are considered recreational drugs and are controlled substances.
When I read the story today about Jeb Bush's daughter Noelle trying fraudulently to obtain Xanax, another benzo, more powerful than the others already described, I thought, What was she thinking? Is she that stressed out? Could she actually be taking this for fun? Unbelievable.
> I got vivid, scary hallucinations on Ambien. In retrospect they were cool, but at the time they scared me. I developed a tolerance to Ambien and would stay up a long time after dosing...then, in the dark, mysterious creatures and people appeared...Anyway, it worked really well for sleep, but I did develop a tolerance. (Had to take upwards of 2.5 pills instead of just 1)
>
> Nighty night!
> -Chris
Posted by paulb on January 31, 2002, at 15:17:34
In reply to Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan for insomnia?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 30, 2002, at 2:28:38
> I take Klonopin in the morning for daytime social phobia but don't take it at bedtime because Klonopin does not help me sleep very well & I don't want to build up tolerance to the Klonopin by taking around the clock.
>
> I was wondering what is the best to help you get to sleep- Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan? Once I fall asleep I usually stay asleep but I usually can't fall asleep until the sun comes up. I usually go to bed at 3 am & can fall asleep until about 6:30 am.
>
> If Ambien & Sonata are not benzos then will they help prevent benzo tolerance to Klonopin by taking one of them instead of Klonopin at bedtime to help with sleep?
> I've never taken Ativan- How does it compare w/ Klonopin?
> Also, my muscles cramp up at night sometimes.I think Klonopin is more sedating that Ativan. Ativan is different from other benzodiazepines because of its metabolism. Strangely I build up tolerance quickly to Ativan. Klonopin has the advantage of the longer half-life. Klonopin is also an anticonvulsant? I think there anxiolytic effect is about the same. Compared with Sonata and Ambien, Ativan is the one with the longer half-life but if your problem is getting to sleep I guess any of the two newer non-benzodiazepine sleeping aids may be beneficial. Good luck and hoping you get agood nights rest soon.
Paulb
Posted by BarbaraCat on January 31, 2002, at 17:23:03
In reply to Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan for insomnia?, posted by 3 Beer Effect on January 30, 2002, at 2:28:38
Ambien in the only sleeper that does not cause that super loopy feel all morning. I take Klonopin during the day and 1/2 klonopin and 10 mg ambien at night. It usually works well without much morning grogginess. I have developed a dependency on the ambien in that if I don't take it, I am up literally all night. If I'm particularly wired, I'll take 1/2 klonopin and 1.5 ambien with some morning hangover. I have heard some reports that ambien can cause depression.
> I take Klonopin in the morning for daytime social phobia but don't take it at bedtime because Klonopin does not help me sleep very well & I don't want to build up tolerance to the Klonopin by taking around the clock.
>
> I was wondering what is the best to help you get to sleep- Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan? Once I fall asleep I usually stay asleep but I usually can't fall asleep until the sun comes up. I usually go to bed at 3 am & can fall asleep until about 6:30 am.
>
> If Ambien & Sonata are not benzos then will they help prevent benzo tolerance to Klonopin by taking one of them instead of Klonopin at bedtime to help with sleep?
> I've never taken Ativan- How does it compare w/ Klonopin?
> Also, my muscles cramp up at night sometimes.
Posted by Noa on January 31, 2002, at 20:00:07
In reply to Re: Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan for insomnia?, posted by BarbaraCat on January 31, 2002, at 17:23:03
To offset the insomnia, RLS, etc. effects of effexor, I have tried Sonata and Klonopin, and currently take Ativan. I am very sensitive to the effects of benzos, etc., so all doses have been small.
My experience:
Sonata was ok as a sleep med, but it made me depressed.
Klonopin worked but was too long acting--felt groggy in the morning.
Ativan seems to be better for me. I take a tiny dose--1/4 of a mg--to offset the insomnia, RLS, etc. effects of effexor. It helps me fall asleep and stay asleep, but wears off by morning.
Posted by Elizabeth on February 2, 2002, at 11:36:22
In reply to Re: Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan for insomnia?, posted by therese desqueroux on January 30, 2002, at 19:04:24
> I've tried all three and some others. Sonata was the weakest. Ambien, a little more potent, did not work either.
Ambien isn't really more potent than Sonata; they're about equipotent. Ambien worked better for you, but different things work for different people. (I'm guessing you only tried the recommended doses -- 10 mg in both cases.) Ambien *is* longer-acting, and that makes it more suitable for people who awaken frequently in the middle of the night.
> Next I was switched from Ativan to Klonopin, which is a more powerful benzo.
Klonopin isn't really more "powerful" than Ativan (some people say that Ativan works better for them), but it *is* more potent -- 1 mg of Klonopin has more effect than 1 mg of Ativan. That just means that the effective dose will probably be different. Similarly, Prozac is much more potent than Zoloft (the recommended doses of Prozac range from 20-80 mg, while for Zoloft the recommended range is 50-200 mg), but that doesn't mean that Prozac is a stronger antidepressant than Zoloft.
Klonopin is also longer-acting than Ativan, so it's odd that you were given Klonopin when Ativan had been making you groggy in the morning.
> I take one at night when I'm not resisting taking my medications, which I still do, and perhaps always will.
If you take Klonopin too often/for too long, you're liable to become tolerant to the sedative effect, although this happens at different rates for different people. The anxiolytic effect does seem to persist, though, so if anxiety is keeping you up at night then it might continue to help.
> I also take Klonopin in the day, and it is a more effective benzo for me than Ativan. If you're worried about the danger of dependence or addiction (as I always am), that's probably at least one good sign that you won't fall into that trap.
If you're taking Klonopin on a daily basis, you're probably dependent. That doesn't mean you're "addicted;" it does mean that it would be unpleasant and possibly even dangerous to stop taking it abruptly (benzo withdrawal can cause seizures). If you're going to stop taking it you should do so under a doctor's supervision.
> I still can't get over the idea that these are considered recreational drugs and are controlled substances.
They're all controlled (all benzos are C-IV except for flunitrazepam, which is C-I), but some, like Xanax and Valium, tend to be abused more than Klonopin. I can't recall ever encountering anyone who found Klonopin to have recreational value.
> When I read the story today about Jeb Bush's daughter Noelle trying fraudulently to obtain Xanax, another benzo, more powerful than the others already described,
Again, Xanax is more potent than any of the other benzos prescribed for anxiety (Halcion is still more potent but is used strictly as a sleep aid), not necessarily more "powerful."
> I thought, What was she thinking? Is she that stressed out? Could she actually be taking this for fun? Unbelievable.
Not unbelievable -- some people enjoy Xanax. But kind of pathetic. I'd think that the governor's daughter (and the president's niece) would be able to get a prescription for Xanax without having to forge it, especially if she really was just stressed.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on February 2, 2002, at 11:40:32
In reply to Re: Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan for insomnia?, posted by paulb on January 31, 2002, at 15:17:34
> I think Klonopin is more sedating that Ativan.
Depends who you talk to.
> Ativan is different from other benzodiazepines because of its metabolism.
This is true, and as a result it's the preferred benzo for people who have liver damage (e.g., alcoholics).
> Klonopin is also an anticonvulsant?
All benzos are anticonvulsants. I've been given IM or IV Ativan in the hospital a couple of times.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on February 2, 2002, at 11:47:55
In reply to Re: Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan for insomnia?, posted by BarbaraCat on January 31, 2002, at 17:23:03
> Ambien in the only sleeper that does not cause that super loopy feel all morning.
It's very short-acting. Sonata is even shorter-acting and is often used for people to take when they wake up in the middle of the night.
> I take Klonopin during the day and 1/2 klonopin and 10 mg ambien at night. It usually works well without much morning grogginess.
I think the benzo + Ambien combination is a good one -- Ambien works fast, Klonopin works for a long time. I've also taken 1 mg Klonopin with 1 mg Xanax (Xanax is a fast-working benzo).
> I have developed a dependency on the ambien in that if I don't take it, I am up literally all night.
That's unusual -- the exception, not the rule. I wonder if taking it in combination with the Klonopin has to do with it.
> If I'm particularly wired, I'll take 1/2 klonopin and 1.5 ambien with some morning hangover.
I think there must be some synergy there, because Ambien really doesn't last all that long.
> I have heard some reports that ambien can cause depression.
It might. I think benzos (except maybe Xanax) are more likely to, though.
-elizabeth
Posted by jane d on February 2, 2002, at 12:30:21
In reply to Re: Ambien, benzos for insomnia » BarbaraCat, posted by Elizabeth on February 2, 2002, at 11:47:55
> > If I'm particularly wired, I'll take 1/2 klonopin and 1.5 ambien with some morning hangover.
>
> I think there must be some synergy there, because Ambien really doesn't last all that long.Or it might just be broken down more slowly in some people. I had the same hangover effect taking ambien. For me, sonata was the answer.
Jane
Posted by BarbaraCat on February 2, 2002, at 20:58:21
In reply to Re: Ambien, benzos for insomnia » Elizabeth, posted by jane d on February 2, 2002, at 12:30:21
Jane,
Did you decide upon sonata after taking other sleepers? Does the effect come on pretty quickly after taking it and can you always depend upon it putting you to sleep? Have you tried melatonin? I find that if I'm in a relatively relaxed state, I can drift off with mild herbal sedatives, but if I'm wired, I can take 2-3 ambiens plus klonopin and I'm still rarin' to boogey all night (maybe I should?).Of course, sleeping in the guest room away from my hubby's snoring is a big factor in all of this. In fact, this may be a good subject for a separate post "Does your partner's snoring add to your psychosis?" What do you think? - Barbara
> > > If I'm particularly wired, I'll take 1/2 klonopin and 1.5 ambien with some morning hangover.
> >
> > I think there must be some synergy there, because Ambien really doesn't last all that long.
>
> Or it might just be broken down more slowly in some people. I had the same hangover effect taking ambien. For me, sonata was the answer.
>
> Jane
Posted by jane d on February 2, 2002, at 21:25:44
In reply to Re: Ambien, benzos for insomnia » jane d, posted by BarbaraCat on February 2, 2002, at 20:58:21
Barbara,
I haven't tried any others. I wanted something very short acting since I rarely wake up once I've fallen asleep. I also don't use the sonata every night. If it's going to work for me I think it works in under half an hour but I'm not watching the clock at that point so I'm not sure. It doesn't always work at 5 or 10 mg so I've sometimes ended up taking another 5 or 10 mg later. Sometimes I've taken 20 mg up front - that always knocks me out - but I don't want to do that each time since I don't need to. I'm also only using it to try to get to sleep under normal, quiet conditions when the only thing keeping me awake is myself. I really doubt that it would knock me out if there was too much additional stimulus like a snoring partner or people coming in and out. I hope somewhere in there are the answers to at least some of your questions.
Jane
Posted by Max Id on August 15, 2002, at 16:31:27
In reply to Re: comparative strength and potency » therese desqueroux, posted by Elizabeth on February 2, 2002, at 11:36:22
it's odd - klonopin although sedating had a residual antagonistic effect on me as well. i became agitated / hostile while sedated. a dangerous combination. further more after a regimen of klonopin 3X day for 4 months. when i was taken off, i went went through the most frightening and horrendous withdrawals. i had to be hospitalized for a week. this has never happened with xanax or valium even though i have taken them both consistantly for years and then stopped cold. the withdrawal effect - absolutely none. -max id
Posted by tancu on September 12, 2002, at 23:44:04
In reply to Re: Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan for insomnia?, posted by therese desqueroux on January 30, 2002, at 19:04:24
> I've tried all three and some others. Sonata was the weakest. Ambien, a little more potent, did not work either. For a while I took Estazolam, but felt too groggy in the morning. Then I was prescribed Ativan, one or, two, if necessary. Two was always necessary, and I didn't like the groggy feeling in the morning. Next I was switched from Ativan to Klonopin, which is a more powerful benzo. I take one at night when I'm not resisting taking my medications, which I still do, and perhaps always will.
>
> I also take Klonopin in the day, and it is a more effective benzo for me than Ativan. If you're worried about the danger of dependence or addiction (as I always am), that's probably at least one good sign that you won't fall into that trap. All they do for me is relieve anxiety and help me get the sleep I require to function. The sensation they give is not at all pleasurable to me. I still can't get over the idea that these are considered recreational drugs and are controlled substances.
>
> When I read the story today about Jeb Bush's daughter Noelle trying fraudulently to obtain Xanax, another benzo, more powerful than the others already described, I thought, What was she thinking? Is she that stressed out? Could she actually be taking this for fun? Unbelievable.
>
>
> > I got vivid, scary hallucinations on Ambien. In retrospect they were cool, but at the time they scared me. I developed a tolerance to Ambien and would stay up a long time after dosing...then, in the dark, mysterious creatures and people appeared...Anyway, it worked really well for sleep, but I did develop a tolerance. (Had to take upwards of 2.5 pills instead of just 1)
> >
> > Nighty night!
> > -Chris
>
after taking ambien I saw, on one occasion, the "little people"--very little--maybe a half inch tall...they were performing stage theatre--a drama as best that I could tell...at 10mg hallucinations are likely in the rare event that I don't fall asleep...have had prescription for more than a yr...no noticeable side-effects, but I don't take it every night...I do take remeron most every night...the only experience I've had with "sleeping pills" are these two.
> tancu.
Posted by ayrity on September 14, 2002, at 0:11:16
In reply to Re: Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan for insomnia?, posted by tancu on September 12, 2002, at 23:44:04
I'm on increasing doses of Parnate (now 60 mg) and having worse imsomnia.
Sonata did absolutely nothing for me. I tried Trazadone, which helped me fall asleep, but no the whole night and the sleep was restless. I also was really washed out and tired the next day. Havn't tried Ambien yet, probably my next choice.
Posted by Another Phil on October 18, 2006, at 14:24:21
In reply to Re: Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan for insomnia?, posted by ayrity on September 14, 2002, at 0:11:16
For what it's worth, 10 mg of Ambien worked for my Parnate-induced insomnia. However, it made me very depressed again.
Posted by amichelle on October 10, 2011, at 22:18:54
In reply to Re: Ambien vs. Sonata vs. Ativan for insomnia?, posted by tancu on September 12, 2002, at 23:44:04
I take Loraepam here and there when needed (when I am more stressed than usual. But when I need something to take more often I simply take melatonin. You can get it at your local drug store. When my doctor told me this at first I didn't believe it was going to help. But not only does it help me sleep, it totally restores your serotonin levels making you feel better overall. I recommended melatonin to everyone even if there isn't much of a sleeping problem and Lorazepam (ativan) for less uses when stress and even muscle problems occur. You only need a very small dose of the melatonin, weirdly it works better that way!
Posted by gadchik on October 12, 2011, at 9:13:07
In reply to Re: Ambien, benzos for insomnia » jane d, posted by BarbaraCat on February 2, 2002, at 20:58:21
>Of course, sleeping in the guest room away from my hubby's snoring is a big factor in all of this. In fact, this may be a good subject for a separate post "Does your partner's snoring add to your psychosis?" What do you think? - Barbara
Barbara,After I had my breakdown,I had to sleep in another room,due to snoring hubby,in order to get the quality sleep to heal.I took remeron,klonopin,and zoloft,slept great.I continue to sleep in the other room,which I hate doing, but I have to sleep. My hubby understands thank goodness and doesnt mind,he likes me to get my sleep too! When we go on cruises,I wear earplugs, but dont sleep so well.I now take klonopin and small amt zoloft. I occasionally take remeron, not often though.But I do believe a snoring spouse can cause a person to lose alot of sleep.
Posted by Chairman_MAO on October 13, 2011, at 17:35:02
In reply to Re: Ambien, benzos for insomnia-Barbara, posted by gadchik on October 12, 2011, at 9:13:07
The best drug for guaranteed, restorative sleep is Xyrem (sodium oxybate). In fact, your brain synthesizes it itself. Toxicity is low, and efficacy is high.
Unfortunately, because of drug war hysteria, and misinformation promulgated by the media, it is virtually impossible to get a prescription for this.
Sodium Oxybate is, of course, the generic drug name for GHB.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.