![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 11 to 35 of 35. Go back in thread:
Posted by sid on December 31, 2001, at 8:48:30
In reply to Re: venlafaxine PLEASE READ Sid,old school,jimmy gold, posted by jimmygold70 on December 31, 2001, at 2:44:36
I agree; I believe in psychotherapy too. I used cognitive and behavioral therapy to get out of major depression and I still use what I learned there every day. It is also useful to avoid relapses once you're out of the major episode. If I had to do it over again, I would also use meds at the same time, but at the time, I didn't want to. Now I take meds for chronic depression, which I've had for about 20 years. Recently I realized I had gone as far as I could with psychotherapy, and I decided it was time for meds because I still had the baseline depression.
Anyway, I think everyone should consider psychotherapy as an option to complement meds. I find it too bad that doctors or therapists push for their specialty rather than for a more complete combinaiton of approaches. Yes, depression is in the brain, but it does affect your emotions. And whatever is mapped wrong in the brain can sometimes be corrected by "catching yourself" thining or doing things, changing it, and over time, helping the depression. It also takes time, medication as well (titration, trying combos, etc...), and patience is the key (I am not patient, boy, did I suffer !).
That was my 2 cents.
> > I am particuarly interested in this SPECT scan and the PET scan.I have often wondered, what exactly is going on in this head of mine?
>
> Ah... well I think it's a waste of your time and money. Even if we can locate some metabological abnormalities in your brain... so what ? Can it suggest any specific treatment ?
>
> > I have suffered with depression for 10 years.I am 32 now and still suffering.Surely there has to be an answer.I have had so many different anti-depressents over the years, none of which have ever worked.I am convinced that the doctor really doesn't know what is the matter with me.
>
> Please state what ADs exactly did you try and at what doses. 10 years to get to a solution for your depression is a lot of time. Did you consider changing a psychiatrist ?
>
> > When I was prescribed the Effexor XR I think he stumbled upon it by accident and it just happened to work for me.I was not told about any of the side effects or with-drawel symptoms I may encounter.I was so frightened when I began experiencing some of them.
>
> "No Pain - No Gain"
>
> > I know I am going to have to come off the Effexor XR 'cos of the headaches I am getting;they are incredibly painful.I have developed a muscle spasm in my neck now too.I look like I have a nervous twitch, this is very embarrassing and uncontrolable.I am also sleeping really badly, I am going to buy some of this valerian tomorrow.Hope it works for me.
>
> But who said the you have to take Effexor XR ? Did you find ANY of the ADs you took tolerable ? Please state which exactly. I believe you should try lithium augmentation and stop messing around with tomographies and switching ADs. You're wasting your time.
>
> > Doctors here in England are reluctant to spend money on scans etc.So I think when I mention this to him he will have a heart attack and try his hardest to slide away from it.
>
> They don't only save money - they save your time and your brain from radiation.... (-:
>
> > When you are suffering with mental illness in England,and are mentally weak it is all to easy for the doctor to ease you out of the treatment room with a prescription for some more pills to pop.I always get the impression that they don't really care.
>
> I wonder if you ever tried a good psychologist. Sure I can't recommend on any since I don't live in England. But one thing I can say for sure is that CBT+AD works better than any alone. You're young, your brain is still 'plastic', CBT can change a lot for you.
>
> See, I was messing around psychiatrists for 4 years (since I was 18), when I decided to change a psychiatrist (wise decision 1) and start psychotherapy (wise decision 2). Now I'm 24 and in a far better state. I have tried probably every drug found in the canon of psychiatry. I have my cocktail right now. What made the difference was sticking to a good drug, augmenting it the right way, and combining it with a good psychitherapist !!!
>
> > I am hoping to get to the docs tomorrow.I am armed to the hilt with info now which is great for me,but he won't like it one little bit.I am determined to be strong tomorrow and get to the bottom of this.Thank-you for your help.I'll update here tomorrow to let you all know how I get on.Thanks again.Catherine1812
>
> Be well ! Please let me know the information I asked in this posting. I really want to help.
>
> Jimmy
Posted by catherine1812 on December 31, 2001, at 12:27:36
In reply to Re: venlafaxine PLEASE READ Sid,old school,jimmy gold, posted by jimmygold70 on December 31, 2001, at 2:44:36
> > > Ah... well I think it's a waste of your time and money. Even if we can locate some metabological abnormalities in your brain... so what ? Can it suggest any specific treatment ?
> I thought that the whole point of the scan was to determine the problem in the brain in order to then treat it correctly????Is that not right?
>
> Please state what ADs exactly did you try and at what doses. 10 years to get to a solution for your depression is a lot of time. Did you consider changing a psychiatrist ?I don't have a psycotherapist at the moment.My doc says there is no need.I disagree with him ,but it is upto him.The patient has to be referred by the doc over here.Yes 10 years is along time.Tell me about it!!!I have suffered
enourmously due to lack of treatment,and I have had to beg to get where I am now.The tablets I have been prescribed in the past range from:Imipramine=150mg daily.Seroxat=150mgdaily.Prozac(can't remember the dose).Zisbin(can't remember dose.)and there are others too.I will check on them all when I have been to the docs and let you have all the details then.I am interested to see what you think.
>
> > When I was prescribed the Effexor XR I think he stumbled upon it by accident and it just happened to work for me.I was not told about any of the side effects or with-drawel symptoms I may encounter.I was so frightened when I began experiencing some of them.
>
> "No Pain - No Gain"
> That's a harsh comment.I disagree.I would have liked to have been told about all the bad things that might or could happen.Every-one has that right surely???I don't like bad suprises!!!> > I know I am going to have to come off the Effexor XR 'cos of the headaches I am getting;they are incredibly painful.I have developed a muscle spasm in my neck now too.I look like I have a nervous twitch, this is very embarrassing and uncontrolable.I am also sleeping really badly, I am going to buy some of this valerian tomorrow.Hope it works for me.
>
> But who said the you have to take Effexor XR ? Did you find ANY of the ADs you took tolerable ? Please state which exactly. I believe you should try lithium augmentation and stop messing around with tomographies and switching ADs. You're wasting your time.> The doctor, my G.P.He didn't hold a gun to my head granted...but..I had to have something and this was his choice.As I said he obviously knew little about the drug, he didn't expalin anything to me just told me the dose to take and that was that.He didn't ask me to call back and see him-nothing.Why do you think I should try lithium agumentation?What is it?Tell me more.
I agree about the chopping and changing of the drugs it is pointless,but I have to trust the doctor and it is he who has done this.> > >
> They don't only save money - they save your time and your brain from radiation.... (-:>mmmmmmmm I would feel better if I had one.
>
> I wonder if you ever tried a good psychologist. Sure I can't recommend on any since I don't live in England. But one thing I can say for sure is that CBT+AD works better than any alone. You're young, your brain is still 'plastic', CBT can change a lot for you.>What is CBT? I'm young... I wish!!!
> See, I was messing around psychiatrists for 4 years (since I was 18), when I decided to change a psychiatrist (wise decision 1) and start psychotherapy (wise decision 2). Now I'm 24 and in a far better state. I have tried probably every drug found in the canon of psychiatry. I have my cocktail right now. What made the difference was sticking to a good drug, augmenting it the right way, and combining it with a good psychitherapist !!!
>
> > What are you diagnosed with?I haven't been given a specific name for my illness.(that worries me too)
>
> Be well ! Please let me know the information I asked in this posting. I really want to help.
>
> JimmyThanks for the concern!I will post the other info when I have it.What about not sleeping well?What do you do for that?Do you have an e-mail account?Could I have your e-mail address?
Posted by Randy Thomas on January 1, 2002, at 0:08:51
In reply to Re: venlafaxine PLEASE READ Sid,old school,jimmy gold, posted by OldSchool on December 30, 2001, at 17:18:14
> > I have suffered with depression for 10 years.I am 32 now and still suffering.Surely there has to be an answer.I have had so many different anti-depressents over the years, none of which have ever worked.I am convinced that the doctor really doesn't know what is the matter with me.It isnt any better under the rule of US HMO's no matter what others here seem to believe, IMO.
Its too bad that so many Americans cant seem to see that our healthcare system is on the rocks, and its not going to get better on its own.
> The doctors do not know what is going on in your head, ahem, your brain I mean. Depression is a brain based illness, yet the diagnostic approach is usually that of its a "psychological" or even worse, just an "emotional" problem. When you are really dealing with a type of neurological illness when you are talking severe depression, manic depression, schizophrenia, etc.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > Doctors here in England are reluctant to spend money on scans etc.So I think when I mention this to him he will have a heart attack and try his hardest to slide away from it.Just like in the USA where doctors will write a script for a med before any expensive test that will cuase the HMO to lose more money.
Hmmmmm ???
> Yes, Ive heard the socialized medicine program in the UK is not the best. Medical care is "rationed" out in the UK. I truly hope socialized medicine does not ever come to the USA.
I pray that it DOES come to the USA in the form that Canada and Oz have it.
If you lose your job or get laid off you dont have to worry how you are going to pay COBRA that 400 dollar a month payment so that if your kid needs an operation, you dont have to sruggle through all the red-tape to get help or go broke trying.
>I fear hard to treat patients would be most affected by a socialized medical system, where care is "rationed" out. Scary to an American who is used to getting things we want.I have a clue for you Old Timer. Under HMO rule, heatlth care is rationed out, just like it is under Medicare. There is no reason not to go with a national healthcare plan, one that would leave people able to pay privately if they want to go that route.
> Somehow, I dont think socialized medicine will ever go down here...I dont think it would jibe with the average American after they learned of the realities of socialized medical care.Yes, the realities that your employer will have to pay you a decent wage, instead of cheap HMO insurance plans, while your tax dollers go to pay for your healthcare and those of your fellow Americans.
> My attitude about healthcare here, is we dont need socialized medical care. What we need is health insurance reform.
I disagree. We need a rational national heathcare plan that keeps people on thier feet.
> > When you are suffering with mental illness in England,and are mentally weak it is all to easy for the doctor to ease you out of the treatment room with a prescription for some more pills to pop.I always get the impression that they don't really care.Sounds like the care you get under HMO care in the USA to me. Perhaps a look at healthceare in Aus. or Canada where operations and medications are much cheaper and the health insurance companies do not rule the roost, like in the US.
Posted by jimmygold70 on January 1, 2002, at 2:29:59
In reply to Re: venlafaxine PLEASE READ jimmy gold » jimmygold70, posted by catherine1812 on December 31, 2001, at 12:27:36
> > I thought that the whole point of the scan was to determine the problem in the brain in order to then treat it correctly????Is that not right?
>
No, since we do not know enough of the brain processes that underlie brain disorder. You can have a nice atypical PET, you can hang it on the wall but it will not help you much.
> I don't have a psycotherapist at the moment.My doc says there is no need.I disagree with him ,but it is upto him.The patient has to be referred by the doc over here.Yes 10 years is along time.Tell me about it!!!I have suffered
> enourmously due to lack of treatment,and I have had to beg to get where I am now.The tablets I have been prescribed in the past range from:Imipramine=150mg daily.Seroxat=150mgdaily.Prozac(can't remember the dose).Zisbin(can't remember dose.)and there are others too.I will check on them all when I have been to the docs and let you have all the details then.I am interested to see what you think.I'll be glad to hear. Change your PDoc, he sounds like a moron to me. And I come from the field of psychology - student and researcher as well.
> > "No Pain - No Gain"
> > That's a harsh comment.I disagree.I would have liked to have been told about all the bad things that might or could happen.Every-one has that right surely???I don't like bad suprises!!!Well, most of the time when you tell one of all the side effects, especially when you're depressed and feel a lot of somatization, you start feeling them right away. I know it sounds stupid, but sometimes you'd better not know. Take 3 months of a trial and THEN look at the monograph for possible side effects (-:
> > The doctor, my G.P.He didn't hold a gun to my head granted...but..I had to have something and this was his choice.As I said he obviously knew little about the drug, he didn't expalin anything to me just told me the dose to take and that was that.He didn't ask me to call back and see him-nothing.Why do you think I should try lithium agumentation?What is it?Tell me more.
> I agree about the chopping and changing of the drugs it is pointless,but I have to trust the doctor and it is he who has done this.A GP is not a PDoc. Get yourself a licensed psychiatrist. About lithium augmentation - it will substantially improve the AD effect of any AD you use. There are side effect, though, but not nack spasms. Try a high dose SSRI (i.e. Paxil/Celaxa) and lithium. This could prove as a good combination for you.
> > > >
> > They don't only save money - they save your time and your brain from radiation.... (-:
>
> >mmmmmmmm I would feel better if I had one.
> >I think you have too much of it (-:
> >What is CBT? I'm young... I wish!!!
Cognitive-Behaviorial treatment. That's the psychotherapy of choice for depression.
> > > What are you diagnosed with?I haven't been given a specific name for my illness.(that worries me too)I have a persoanlity disorder, dysthimic disorder, and strong anxiety manifested by social and other phobias.
> Thanks for the concern!I will post the other info when I have it.What about not sleeping well?What do you do for that?Do you have an e-mail account?Could I have your e-mail address?
Taking the right med will let you sleep well. Try posting to jimmygold70@yahoo.com. But tell me when you post there, since I don't check the mail much those days...
Hugs!
Jimmy
Posted by catherine1812 on January 1, 2002, at 6:15:21
In reply to Re: venlafaxine PLEASE READ jimmy gold, posted by jimmygold70 on January 1, 2002, at 2:29:59
> > > I thought that the whole point of the scan was to determine the problem in the brain in order to then treat it correctly????Is that not right?
> >
> No, since we do not know enough of the brain processes that underlie brain disorder. You can have a nice atypical PET, you can hang it on the wall but it will not help you much.
>
> Well, I think I'll forget that idea then> > I don't have a psycotherapist at the moment.My doc says there is no need.I disagree with him ,but it is upto him.The patient has to be referred by the doc over here.Yes 10 years is along time.Tell me about it!!!I have suffered
> > enourmously due to lack of treatment,and I have had to beg to get where I am now.The tablets I have been prescribed in the past range from:Imipramine=150mg daily.Seroxat=150mgdaily.Prozac(can't remember the dose).Zisbin(can't remember dose.)and there are others too.I will check on them all when I have been to the docs and let you have all the details then.I am interested to see what you think.
>
> I'll be glad to hear. Change your PDoc, he sounds like a moron to me. And I come from the field of psychology - student and researcher as well.>Yes, he is, she is, they all are!
> > > "No Pain - No Gain"
> > > That's a harsh comment.I disagree.I would have liked to have been told about all the bad things that might or could happen.Every-one has that right surely???I don't like bad suprises!!!
>
> Well, most of the time when you tell one of all the side effects, especially when you're depressed and feel a lot of somatization, you start feeling them right away. I know it sounds stupid, but sometimes you'd better not know. Take 3 months of a trial and THEN look at the monograph for possible side effects (-:
>
> > > The doctor, my G.P.He didn't hold a gun to my head granted...but..I had to have something and this was his choice.As I said he obviously knew little about the drug, he didn't expalin anything to me just told me the dose to take and that was that.He didn't ask me to call back and see him-nothing.Why do you think I should try lithium agumentation?What is it?Tell me more.
> > I agree about the chopping and changing of the drugs it is pointless,but I have to trust the doctor and it is he who has done this.
>
> A GP is not a PDoc. Get yourself a licensed psychiatrist. About lithium augmentation - it will substantially improve the AD effect of any AD you use. There are side effect, though, but not nack spasms. Try a high dose SSRI (i.e. Paxil/Celaxa) and lithium. This could prove as a good combination for you.
>
> Going to ask about the lithium augmentation.What does SSRI mean?You are much more 'up' on all this than myself.I have no basic knowledge of any of this stuff. Getting the psychiatrist is going to be the hardest thing to do.My G.p won't refer me,I know they won't..but I am going to try.
> > > > >
> > > They don't only save money - they save your time and your brain from radiation.... (-:
> >
> > >mmmmmmmm I would feel better if I had one.
> > >
>
> I think you have too much of it (-:
>
> > >What is CBT? I'm young... I wish!!!
>
> Cognitive-Behaviorial treatment. That's the psychotherapy of choice for depression.
> I just read up on this, sounds interesting.I'm not sure it would wash with me though.I think it is easier for an American to do a programme like that.You are all brought up in a much more positive environment than here in England.I don't know if you understnd that or not?Do you?English people tend to be appeasing by nature.Its a pain in the arse.I don't think any-one or anything could change the way I think about everything and anything.
> > > > What are you diagnosed with?I haven't been given a specific name for my illness.(that worries me too)
>
> I have a persoanlity disorder, dysthimic disorder, and strong anxiety manifested by social and other phobias.
>Jimmy, mail me in detail about your disorder.I am interested-hope you don't mind.What started it off etc...?
> > Thanks for the concern!I will post the other info when I have it.What about not sleeping well?What do you do for that?Do you have an e-mail account?Could I have your e-mail address?
>
> Taking the right med will let you sleep well. Try posting to jimmygold70@yahoo.com. But tell me when you post there, since I don't check the mail much those days...>I am going to send you an e-mail jimmy, so please check your account today ok?'HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!' Catherine
>
>
Posted by OldSchool on January 1, 2002, at 10:24:26
In reply to Re: venlafaxine PLEASE READ Sid,old school,jimmy gold, posted by Randy Thomas on January 1, 2002, at 0:08:51
>
>
> I have a clue for you Old Timer. Under HMO rule, heatlth care is rationed out, just like it is under Medicare. There is no reason not to go with a national healthcare plan, one that would leave people able to pay privately if they want to go that route.You are a communist
>
>
> > Somehow, I dont think socialized medicine will ever go down here...I dont think it would jibe with the average American after they learned of the realities of socialized medical care.
>
> Yes, the realities that your employer will have to pay you a decent wage, instead of cheap HMO insurance plans, while your tax dollers go to pay for your healthcare and those of your fellow Americans.
>The solution is for the American voter/consumer/taxpayer to DEMAND health insurance reform. And end the managed care phenomenom and go back to old style health insurance, like it was before HMOs/managed care. Socialized medicine would be no different (probably worse) than what we currently have in the form of managed care and HMOs.
Both managed care insurance and socialized medicine suck. Neither are any good.
>
> > My attitude about healthcare here, is we dont need socialized medical care. What we need is health insurance reform.
>
> I disagree. We need a rational national heathcare plan that keeps people on thier feet.No...we need to destroy to the insurance lobby and FORCE health insurance reform on health insurance companies. Force it down their throats whether they like it or not. Then we wont need socialized medicine, with all its problems and "rationed" care. Ugh.
Frankly, I dont give a damn about saving my HMOs money. I will spend it all and hope they go broke.
>
>
> > > When you are suffering with mental illness in England,and are mentally weak it is all to easy for the doctor to ease you out of the treatment room with a prescription for some more pills to pop.I always get the impression that they don't really care.
>
> Sounds like the care you get under HMO care in the USA to me. Perhaps a look at healthceare in Aus. or Canada where operations and medications are much cheaper and the health insurance companies do not rule the roost, like in the US.
Which country are you in? Are you an American? Trust me, Ive heard all about the Canadian healthcare system and it aint so great. Many Canadian doctors leave Canada to come to the USA so they can make real money. Care in Canada is "rationed out" I heard it oftentimes takes months to get a MRI or CAT scan there. Here I can just walk into any ER at any hospital, complain about head pain or chest pain and voila, tests will be done whether I have health insurance or not (I have insurance BTW).As I said before, socialised medicine is not any better than the current managed care situation in the USA. The solution is for insurance reform...a total complete overhaul of the health insurance industry. It needs to be much more heavily regulated. Currently health insurance is not regulated in the USA enough, largely because of the powerful and wealthy insurance lobbys in Washington DC. These health insurance lobbys need to be destroyed...like Ross Perot wanted to get rid of behind the scenes special interest groups.
Get rid of the powerful insurance lobbying capabilities and make politicians answer directly to the American citizen voter. I guarantee you that the average American has no love of managed care insurance and would tell their politicians this is the case. But politicians currently do not listen to the American citizen as much, they listen to the health insurance lobbyists, because they are loaded with cash.
Reform the system instead and dont go the communist route.
Old School>
>
>
Posted by sid on January 1, 2002, at 10:38:38
In reply to Re: venlafaxine PLEASE READ Sid,old school,jimmy gold, posted by OldSchool on January 1, 2002, at 10:24:26
You wrote:
"Get rid of the powerful insurance lobbying capabilities and make politicians answer directly to the American citizen voter. "That's precisely what socialised medicine is !
It has nothing to do with communism. Yes, there are problems in Canada because there has been abuse in the past, and the system needs a reform there too. However, I have lived in different countries, Canada and the US being two of them, (I had insurance in the US), and the system I prefer is the Canadian one. Canadian doctors go to the US to earn real money, why? Because of the lobbies of insurance companies which leads to monstruous salaries for doctors. Get rid of that in the US and you'll fix part of the problem in Canada too - doctors will be paid less in the US and everybody will be happy. Except doctors who are part of the lobby of course.
Health care is in part a public good and as such, it can never be provided efficiently by private firms. At a minimum, it needs costly regulation and monitoring, and socialized health care certainly an interesting option, depending on HOW it is done. A benevolent government is not a communist government - learn to make the difference between the two for goodness sake! Mac Arthur and communism are both dead.
Posted by OldSchool on January 1, 2002, at 11:28:41
In reply to communist? » OldSchool, posted by sid on January 1, 2002, at 10:38:38
> You wrote:
> "Get rid of the powerful insurance lobbying capabilities and make politicians answer directly to the American citizen voter. "
>
> That's precisely what socialised medicine is !
NO its not Sid! Socialised medicine is where the government charges sky high taxes in order to pay for a government subsidized health program. Taxes in these country's where socialised medicine is common are high. If socialised medicine came to the USA, our federal government would have to begin charging even higher taxes than we already pay in order to finance this socialised healthcare system.I dont want to pay anymore taxes Sid. The government already gets enough of my money as it is.
>
> It has nothing to do with communism.It doesnt huh? I totally disagree with you Sid. Socialised medicine IS a form of communism. Look at the name Sid. "Socialised" medicine. Notice the word "socialised." This is derived from the word "socialism." Socialism is a form of watered down communism.
I dont want socialism in my country Sid. I prefer my American freedom instead.
>Yes, there are problems in Canada because there has been abuse in the past, and the system needs a reform there too.A LOT of problems Sid. I wouldnt want to have to exist under the Canadian healthcare system.
> However, I have lived in different countries, Canada and the US being two of them, (I had insurance in the US), and the system I prefer is the Canadian one. Canadian doctors go to the US to earn real money, why? Because of the lobbies of insurance companies which leads to monstruous salaries for doctors. Get rid of that in the US and you'll fix part of the problem in Canada too - doctors will be paid less in the US and everybody will be happy. Except doctors who are part of the lobby of course.
>
> Health care is in part a public good and as such, it can never be provided efficiently by private firms.Oh yeah? Who says so? YOU? You sound like you have communist or socialist biases yourself. I prefer private medical care, thank you. I prefer using a private practice psychiatrist, rather than one of these taxpayer subsidized county or city mental health clinics. Gag...Ugh.
> At a minimum, it needs costly regulation and monitoring, and socialized health care certainly an interesting option, depending on HOW it is done. A benevolent government is not a communist government - learn to make the difference between the two for goodness sake! Mac Arthur and communism are both dead.
Sid...lets learn a basic economy lesson here. Socialised medicine is nothing but a form of socialism. Socialism is a halfway point between communism and capitalism. I prefer capitalism because I prefer freedom.
The BOTTOM LINE is any country which has socialised medicine is a socialist government. I prefer total freedom in my country and that means I dont want any form of socialism, communism whatever you want to call it.
Going from our current managed care/HMO system to socialised medicine would just be going from one shithole to another shithole, neither of them any good.
I dont see Australia's or Canada's healthcare systems as "role models" for good healthcare BTW.
What we need in America is a go back to the basics pattern of insurance reform and recognize and admit that health insurance is legalized consumer fraud. Reform it by legislation...and you wont need to ruin things further by going to "socialised medicine" which would only lead to higher tax rates in the USA. Regulate the health insurance industry more heavily and we wont need socialised medicine in the USA, with all the troubles it brings with government "rationed" care. What a crock of shit.
Pretty soon everything you make goes to the government in the form of taxes. Screw that.
Old School
Posted by spike4848 on January 1, 2002, at 12:24:38
In reply to Re: communist?, posted by OldSchool on January 1, 2002, at 11:28:41
Hey There ...... great discussion!
I think unforunately, the closer we get to socialized medicine here in the U.S., with managed care ..... the worse the quantily of care gets. Our whole economy is based on open, competitive market. But when the government steps in, or a monopoly is started, there is no reason to improve quality. Same with health care ... in the past the doctor who provided the highest quality was rewarded with a good salary. Now, quality really doesn't matter .... what matters is how many patients you seen per hour.
So now we have "Psychopharmacologists," who basically see 4 patients an hour and push prescriptions. And the drugs they push are from companies that make the most money .... not necessarily the best drug. I rarely see desipramine used anymore .... and it is a great drug.
I think we need free market system personally.
And the Canadian system .... most canadian doctors come to the U.S. because they don't want to wait 6 to 8 weeks to see a specialist.
Spike
Posted by Randy Thomas on January 1, 2002, at 12:47:25
In reply to Re: venlafaxine PLEASE READ Sid,old school,jimmy gold, posted by OldSchool on January 1, 2002, at 10:24:26
Old Timer,
> > I have a clue for you Old Timer. Under HMO rule, heatlth care is rationed out, just like it is under Medicare. There is no reason not to go with a national healthcare plan, one that would leave people able to pay privately if they want to go that route.
>
> You are a communistI am as patriotic and as American as you are, Old Timer, so I will ignore your insult.
But you see, I have seen to many hard working people fall between the cracks of the US Medical system. Some died becuase they couldnt get care, and others have suicided, after the medical bills got to be too much. Perhaps if you have always been covered with health insurance and/or have never been seriously ill, you cannot understand that.
>
> >
> >
> > > Somehow, I dont think socialized medicine will ever go down here...I dont think it would jibe with the average American after they learned of the realities of socialized medical care.
> >
> > Yes, the realities that your employer will have to pay you a decent wage, instead of cheap HMO insurance plans, while your tax dollers go to pay for your healthcare and those of your fellow Americans.
> >
>
> The solution is for the American voter/consumer/taxpayer to DEMAND health insurance reform. And end the managed care phenomenom and go back to old style health insurance, like it was before HMOs/managed care. Socialized medicine would be no different (probably worse) than what we currently have in the form of managed care and HMOs.<And what would that be, OT?
The HMO's have too much $$$ to pay to have legislation stopped, and that is just what they have done. That is why they pay hugh amount of money to the legal profession when they are sued in court for witholding care from a sick or dying person.
> Both managed care insurance and socialized medicine suck. Neither are any good.Not all socialized medicine is equal. Canada an Austrialia are two that come to mind as good examples of socialized heathcare, but the UK system is not as well designed, to be sure.
> >
> > > My attitude about healthcare here, is we dont need socialized medical care. What we need is health insurance reform.
> >
> > I disagree. We need a rational national heathcare plan that keeps people on thier feet.
>
> No...we need to destroy to the insurance lobby and FORCE health insurance reform on health insurance companies. Force it down their throats whether they like it or not. Then we wont need socialized medicine, with all its problems and "rationed" care. Ugh.But many states have tried that route and lost. Once again it gets back to the HMO money machine.
>
> Frankly, I dont give a damn about saving my HMOs money. I will spend it all and hope they go broke.
>
> >
> >
> > > > When you are suffering with mental illness in England,and are mentally weak it is all to easy for the doctor to ease you out of the treatment room with a prescription for some more pills to pop.I always get the impression that they don't really care.
> >
> > Sounds like the care you get under HMO care in the USA to me. Perhaps a look at healthceare in Aus. or Canada where operations and medications are much cheaper and the health insurance companies do not rule the roost, like in the US.
>
>
> Which country are you in? Are you an American? Trust me, Ive heard all about the Canadian healthcare system and it aint so great. Many Canadian doctors leave Canada to come to the USA so they can make real money. Care in Canada is "rationed out" I heard it oftentimes takes months to get a MRI or CAT scan there. Here I can just walk into any ER at any hospital, complain about head pain or chest pain and voila, tests will be done whether I have health insurance or not (I have insurance BTW).I am an American, just like you. I have been on both sides of the fence as an employer and an employee, I can honestly say that I would have rather have paid higher wages to my workers then offer inferior HMO healthcare plans, that oftentimes are not suited to many individuals.
> As I said before, socialised medicine is not any better than the current managed care situation in the USA. The solution is for insurance reform...a total complete overhaul of the health insurance industry. It needs to be much more heavily regulated. Currently health insurance is not regulated in the USA enough, largely because of the powerful and wealthy insurance lobbys in Washington DC. These health insurance lobbys need to be destroyed...like Ross Perot wanted to get rid of behind the scenes special interest groups.
>
> Get rid of the powerful insurance lobbying capabilities and make politicians answer directly to the American citizen voter. I guarantee you that the average American has no love of managed care insurance and would tell their politicians this is the case. But politicians currently do not listen to the American citizen as much, they listen to the health insurance lobbyists, because they are loaded with cash.
>
> Reform the system instead and dont go the communist route.This is not "communism". A western governments primary reason for existance is to protect its citizens, and that just isnt happening in the USA, at present, IRT the HMO debacle.
Posted by OldSchool on January 1, 2002, at 12:59:24
In reply to Re: communist?, posted by spike4848 on January 1, 2002, at 12:24:38
> Hey There ...... great discussion!
>
> I think unforunately, the closer we get to socialized medicine here in the U.S., with managed care ..... the worse the quantily of care gets. Our whole economy is based on open, competitive market. But when the government steps in, or a monopoly is started, there is no reason to improve quality. Same with health care ... in the past the doctor who provided the highest quality was rewarded with a good salary. Now, quality really doesn't matter .... what matters is how many patients you seen per hour.
>
> So now we have "Psychopharmacologists," who basically see 4 patients an hour and push prescriptions. And the drugs they push are from companies that make the most money .... not necessarily the best drug. I rarely see desipramine used anymore .... and it is a great drug.
>
> I think we need free market system personally.
>
> And the Canadian system .... most canadian doctors come to the U.S. because they don't want to wait 6 to 8 weeks to see a specialist.
>
> SpikeSpike...you are a smart guy. I agree. Free market is the only way, anything less stifles freedom and improvements. We need to get rid of managed care insurance in the USA and go back to the basics of regular style insurance. Leave the socialised medicine overseas, I feel sorry for all the people who must endure socialised medicine. I read so many stories on the Net from people in the UK, Australia and Canada who are on "waiting lists" for simple diagnostic tests like MRIs and CAT scans, things we take for granted in the USA.
Old School
Posted by Cam W. on January 1, 2002, at 14:18:40
In reply to Re: communist?, posted by OldSchool on January 1, 2002, at 12:59:24
Oldschool - Being one of those Canadians, I can tell you I'd rather have our system of medicine than yours. I too have seen both in action. As to the increased taxes, what do you think your $1000/mo. medical insurance premiums are? Our medical coverage stays at the same rate (approx, $100/mo.) no matter how many heart attacks one has had. We do have subsidized prescription, disability, and dental coverage, but usually 1/2 of that is paid by our employers. I have considered adding to Canada's "brain drain" and heading south, but my wife (a public health nurse") refuses to work in a system that requires here to count, and charge for, the number of tissues she uses on a patient.
Another example, my daughter was struck and killed in a crosswalk in Florida while on holiday and the bill for the ambulance came to almost $400 US (it was said tha they worked extensively on her at roadside, but to me, a transected aorta is fairly obvious) and the hospital stay (until the coroner could get in cand send her to the morgue) $600+ US. In Canada, that would have cost $50 CDN.
I think I'll keep this portion of communism, thanks. The big debate up here is whether to allow a two-tiered health system. The one we have now, plus one for thos that can afford to pay extra (ie. able to go to a private MRI clinic rather than waiting in queue, or having elective surgery in a private hospital. The big beef is, is that the poor would get worse care. In the big picture, I doubt that would happen.
- Cam
Posted by Randy Thomas on January 1, 2002, at 15:02:08
In reply to Re: communist? » OldSchool, posted by Cam W. on January 1, 2002, at 14:18:40
Hello Cam,
> Oldschool - Being one of those Canadians, I can tell you I'd rather have our system of medicine than yours. I too have seen both in action. As to the increased taxes, what do you think your $1000/mo. medical insurance premiums are?
That is a valid point, and one I tried to make to Old Timer, who seems to think I am a communist for suggesting that we rethink our whole failed system of healthcare, using our tax dollars to pay for a universal system, instead of the failed HMO model that is letting sick people get sicker, not better, lay in the hands of employers and big insurance companies.
Its unfortunate that mant American right-wing types see any plan like this as a restriction of their freedoms, but what freedoms does one have without health ?
Our elders, seniors, disabled and war veterans (i.e. people who cannot work)are paying through the nose for medications that are half the cost in CA oe AU, for example.
Why, for Petes' sake ?
Our medical coverage stays at the same rate (approx, $100/mo.) no matter how many heart attacks one has had. We do have subsidized prescription, disability, and dental coverage, but usually 1/2 of that is paid by our employers. I have considered adding to Canada's "brain drain" and heading south, but my wife (a public health nurse") refuses to work in a system that requires here to count, and charge for, the number of tissues she uses on a patient.
>
> Another example, my daughter was struck and killed in a crosswalk in Florida while on holiday and the bill for the ambulance came to almost $400 US (it was said tha they worked extensively on her at roadside, but to me, a transected aorta is fairly obvious) and the hospital stay (until the coroner could get in cand send her to the morgue) $600+ US. In Canada, that would have cost $50 CDN.I am very sorry for the loss of your daughter, Cam.
>
> I think I'll keep this portion of communism, thanks. The big debate up here is whether to allow a two-tiered health system. The one we have now, plus one for thos that can afford to pay extra (ie. able to go to a private MRI clinic rather than waiting in queue, or having elective surgery in a private hospital. The big beef is, is that the poor would get worse care. In the big picture, I doubt that would happen.I agree, and I also think that this two-tier system would be a good solution to the mess that American HMO medical care has become in the last decade or so.
With GW Bush & Co. in office, taking advantage of the Sept.11 terror attacks on US soil to further thier Republican adgenda, I doubt that America will be sseing this happen anytime soon, but I guess that will make Old Timer and his kind happy.
Regards,Randy.
Posted by OldSchool on January 1, 2002, at 15:19:29
In reply to Re: communist? » OldSchool, posted by Cam W. on January 1, 2002, at 14:18:40
> Oldschool - Being one of those Canadians, I can tell you I'd rather have our system of medicine than yours. I too have seen both in action. As to the increased taxes, what do you think your $1000/mo. medical insurance premiums are? Our medical coverage stays at the same rate (approx, $100/mo.) no matter how many heart attacks one has had. We do have subsidized prescription, disability, and dental coverage, but usually 1/2 of that is paid by our employers. I have considered adding to Canada's "brain drain" and heading south, but my wife (a public health nurse") refuses to work in a system that requires here to count, and charge for, the number of tissues she uses on a patient.
>
> Another example, my daughter was struck and killed in a crosswalk in Florida while on holiday and the bill for the ambulance came to almost $400 US (it was said tha they worked extensively on her at roadside, but to me, a transected aorta is fairly obvious) and the hospital stay (until the coroner could get in cand send her to the morgue) $600+ US. In Canada, that would have cost $50 CDN.
>
> I think I'll keep this portion of communism, thanks. The big debate up here is whether to allow a two-tiered health system. The one we have now, plus one for thos that can afford to pay extra (ie. able to go to a private MRI clinic rather than waiting in queue, or having elective surgery in a private hospital. The big beef is, is that the poor would get worse care. In the big picture, I doubt that would happen.
>
> - CamCam, first of all Im truly sorry about your daughter. That was a horrible thing.
As far as the socialised medicine thing goes, well all I can say is that I prefer private practice medicine. Private practice psychiatry is the only thing I will use. I have been extremely unimpressed with what government run "health clinics" Ive seen here.
Here in the USA, the closest thing to what you guys have is the American military/VA medical system. And the Medicaid/Medicare medical programs for Americans in poverty. Neither have good reputations at providing quality medicine.
I prefer the complete freedom and flexibility that private medical care provides. For a refractorily sick person like myself, I need a lot of flexibility and freedom in choosing my care.
I would be for providing poor people money to purchase private health insurance. Where poor people could have private health insurance and enjoy the same flexibility and freedom in healthcare that regular people have. However a formal, government run "socialised medicine" program I am totally against and will always be against.
Old School
Posted by spike4848 on January 1, 2002, at 15:44:38
In reply to Re: communist?, posted by OldSchool on January 1, 2002, at 15:19:29
Cam,
My sympathy to you and your family concerning your daughter ...... I can not begin to imagine the suffering you must have been through.
Sincerely,
Spike
Posted by IsoM on January 1, 2002, at 15:57:26
In reply to Re: communist? » OldSchool, posted by Cam W. on January 1, 2002, at 14:18:40
Cam, I'm so sorry - that's horrible about your daughter. To add insult & worry about money at such a time as you went through is even worse.
I'm Canadian too & honestly, I know of few people here who don't like the Canadian medical system. It's not without its faults but hey? how can something as massive a plan as this satisfy everything? I have a couple of ex-American friends who became Canadian & they prefer this system. I've also known some American friends (I live next to the border) who have continued to pay for years for the birth of their children - something we take so much for granted here in Canada.
> Oldschool - Being one of those Canadians, I can tell you I'd rather have our system of medicine than yours. I too have seen both in action. As to the increased taxes, what do you think your $1000/mo. medical insurance premiums are? Our medical coverage stays at the same rate (approx, $100/mo.) no matter how many heart attacks one has had. We do have subsidized prescription, disability, and dental coverage, but usually 1/2 of that is paid by our employers. I have considered adding to Canada's "brain drain" and heading south, but my wife (a public health nurse") refuses to work in a system that requires here to count, and charge for, the number of tissues she uses on a patient.
>
> Another example, my daughter was struck and killed in a crosswalk in Florida while on holiday and the bill for the ambulance came to almost $400 US (it was said tha they worked extensively on her at roadside, but to me, a transected aorta is fairly obvious) and the hospital stay (until the coroner could get in cand send her to the morgue) $600+ US. In Canada, that would have cost $50 CDN.
>
> I think I'll keep this portion of communism, thanks. The big debate up here is whether to allow a two-tiered health system. The one we have now, plus one for thos that can afford to pay extra (ie. able to go to a private MRI clinic rather than waiting in queue, or having elective surgery in a private hospital. The big beef is, is that the poor would get worse care. In the big picture, I doubt that would happen.
>
> - Cam
Posted by spike4848 on January 1, 2002, at 16:12:53
In reply to Re: communist?, posted by Randy Thomas on January 1, 2002, at 15:02:08
> > Oldschool - Being one of those Canadians, I can tell you I'd rather have our system of medicine than yours. I too have seen both in action. As to the increased taxes, what do you think your $1000/mo. medical insurance premiums are?
>I agree that medical insurance companies need reform .... that is inherit in the idea of the free market economy model of health care. I think we all agree insurance companies are corrupt to some degree ..... the innumerable amount of restrictions they place on doctors and health care consumers are ridicuous. Having to call the insurance company to pre-authorize an emergency room visit ... if I'm having a heart attack they are the last people I will be calling!
> Our elders, seniors, disabled and war veterans (i.e. people who cannot work)are paying through the nose for medications that are half the cost in CA oe AU, for example.
>I assume your refering to Medicare and how it does not adequately cover prescriptions .... but what is Medicare? Another form of socialized, government controlled medical system that *failed*. That is another point in favor of the free market model.
> > I think I'll keep this portion of communism, thanks. The big debate up here is whether to allow a two-tiered health system. The one we have now, plus one for thos that can afford to pay extra (ie. able to go to a private MRI clinic rather than waiting in queue, or having elective surgery in a private hospital. The big beef is, is that the poor would get worse care. In the big picture, I doubt that would happen.
I think we as a people should take more responsiblity for our health care. I don't think anyone *owes* me or I have a *right* to let say "vagus nerve stimulation therapy" for my depression, but if I want it ... then I will have to pay for it. I may have to forego something else with that money, but at least I was able to make that decision.
Spike
Posted by Randy Thomas on January 1, 2002, at 17:04:29
In reply to Re: communist? » Randy Thomas, posted by spike4848 on January 1, 2002, at 16:12:53
> I agree that medical insurance companies need reform .... that is inherit in the idea of the free market economy model of health care. I think we all agree insurance companies are corrupt to some degree ..... the innumerable amount of restrictions they place on doctors and health care consumers are ridicuous. Having to call the insurance company to pre-authorize an emergency room visit ... if I'm having a heart attack they are the last people I will be calling!And under a rational healthcare plan, like they have in Canada, you wont have to. The same goes for Austrailia.
> > Our elders, seniors, disabled and war veterans (i.e. people who cannot work)are paying through the nose for medications that are half the cost in CA oe AU, for example.
> >
>
> I assume your refering to Medicare and how it does not adequately cover prescriptions .... but what is Medicare? Another form of socialized, government controlled medical system that *failed*. That is another point in favor of the free market model.My point was that for many people in the US, it is almost impossible to afford or even get healthcare insurance unless you are employed with benefits. Even if you can afford it, pre-existing conditions usually come into play, if you pay for your plan privatly.
It the case of many war veterans, pre-1960, they were promised FREE health care for life, but they are not getting it in many cases, without red tape and strings. Under a national plan everyone could access healthcare, not just those young enough or healthy enough to work for a company that provides healthcare benefits.
> > > I think I'll keep this portion of communism, thanks. The big debate up here is whether to allow a two-tiered health system. The one we have now, plus one for thos that can afford to pay extra (ie. able to go to a private MRI clinic rather than waiting in queue, or having elective surgery in a private hospital. The big beef is, is that the poor would get worse care. In the big picture, I doubt that would happen.
>
> I think we as a people should take more responsiblity for our health care. I don't think anyone *owes* me or I have a *right* to let say "vagus nerve stimulation therapy" for my depression, but if I want it ... then I will have to pay for it. I may have to forego something else with that money, but at least I was able to make that decision.But you would be paying into the system with your tax dollars, just like you do for roads, the military, police, firefighters, ect. I see nothing that would keep you from obtaining healthcare services with your own $$$ , should you choose to.
When one becomes ill the last thing you want to do is jump trough hoops trying to get access to healthcare. In the USA, this happens all to often, with tragic results.
Posted by spike4848 on January 1, 2002, at 18:07:17
In reply to Re: communist? spike4848, posted by Randy Thomas on January 1, 2002, at 17:04:29
Randy,
Some good points. It is a difficult issue.
I think the post's titles are looking a little suspicious .....
Re: communist? spike4848
Re: communist? » Randy Thomas
Re: communist? » OldSchoolI had to laugh when I saw them. Like were trying to shake out the communists in "Psycho Babble."
Sincerely,
Spike
Posted by jimmygold70 on January 1, 2002, at 18:16:29
In reply to Re: venlafaxine PLEASE READ jimmy gold » jimmygold70, posted by catherine1812 on December 31, 2001, at 12:27:36
Dear Catherine,
Concerning the psychotherapy and PDoc referral from your GP - if he won't refer you, threaten him that you'll take a lawyer and file a claim against him. If he still insists, take a good lawyer. No GP wants a medical recklesness claim filed against him. Just do it !!! By the way, can't you pick another GP ? What kind of medical insurance is that ?!
Meds - It doesn't look like you've tried much meds. Seroxat 150mg doesn't sound to me - the max dose is 60 or 80mg to my best knowledge.
It sounds like Remeron might be the solution for you. Give it a try. It is one of the most potent anti-depressants available, and gives you a good night's sleep (if you can wake up in the morning - that's another issue :-)
You think CBT won't work for you. That what I thought too. Well, prove me wrong (-: Give it a try, you have little to lose. It IS effective. Studies show it is comparable to drug therapy in efficiency. In your state right now everything looks unchangeable: can't change your way of thinking, can't cange a GP, he won't refer me, blah blah blah. You're too pessimistic madame. That's a part of your illness. Start moving things around. You know, in Judaism we say - "whoever saves one soul - he saved the whole world". If I can save you from your "catastrophic" thinking (that's the term used in psychology for the pessimistic way you think) and your depression, It compares, for me, to saving the world.
Take care,
JimmyBTW I checked my e-mail with no posting of you as of now.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 1, 2002, at 21:11:08
In reply to Re: venlafaxine PLEASE READ Sid,old school,jimmy gold, posted by OldSchool on January 1, 2002, at 10:24:26
> You are a communist
Please don't post anything that others could take as accusatory, thanks.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Any follow-ups regarding civility should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. And any regarding health care systems should be redirected to Psycho-Social-Babble. Happy new year,
Bob
Posted by sid on January 2, 2002, at 11:12:33
In reply to Re: communist? » OldSchool, posted by sid on January 2, 2002, at 11:05:08
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 2, 2002, at 11:27:35
In reply to Sorry Dr.Bob, I had not seen the redirect request (nm), posted by sid on January 2, 2002, at 11:12:33
No problem, I just moved it, to:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20020102/msgs/16142.html
I hope you don't mind,
Bob
Posted by catherine1812 on January 2, 2002, at 16:16:50
In reply to Re: venlafaxine PLEASE READ jimmy gold » catherine1812, posted by jimmygold70 on January 1, 2002, at 18:16:29
> Dear Catherine,
>
> Concerning the psychotherapy and PDoc referral from your GP - if he won't refer you, threaten him that you'll take a lawyer and file a claim against him. If he still insists, take a good lawyer. No GP wants a medical recklesness claim filed against him. Just do it !!! By the way, can't you pick another GP ? What kind of medical insurance is that ?!
>Yes I could pick another G.P but chances are he'll be just as crap!(I'm being serious by the way.)
You see as soon as you mention mental health to any G.P here in Engalnd they look for a couple of signs in you.First, can they get away with saying your completely?In which case they will try to section you with a whole bunch of people that ought to be in 'one flew over the cookoos nest' and you end up going nuts cos that's the type of people you are mixing with.(this had happened to me, and I was Jack Nicholson) Or, if they see any signs of complete weakness(i.e me )some one they can manipulate and send off quickly with another prescription for yet another crap drug then they will do just that.They can't be arsed to even think about what the problem might be.They are more interested in getting the right number of patients in and out of the surgery in a day!It's the shits!!!THAT'S THE NHS FOR YOU!!!
Why should I have to fight to get proper health care??I shouldn't have to keep changing my doctor until I find one that can be bothered to listen to me and help.There are not many good doctors around in my opinion.If I had the money I would go private-but I haven't.(not that I think the docs are any better,but at least if you are paying them they are more likely to listen and help.)
> Meds - It doesn't look like you've tried much meds. Seroxat 150mg doesn't sound to me - the max dose is 60 or 80mg to my best knowledge.
>
> It sounds like Remeron might be the solution for you. Give it a try. It is one of the most potent anti-depressants available, and gives you a good night's sleep (if you can wake up in the morning - that's another issue :-)
>
> You think CBT won't work for you. That what I thought too. Well, prove me wrong (-: Give it a try, you have little to lose. It IS effective. Studies show it is comparable to drug therapy in efficiency. In your state right now everything looks unchangeable: can't change your way of thinking, can't cange a GP, he won't refer me, blah blah blah. You're too pessimistic madame.Ha,ha ha(lol)that amused me.Thankyou.I know I'm pessimistic but that's just me.I don't think its my illness I am just a miserable old git!!My whole family are.
That's a part of your illness. Start moving things around. You know, in Judaism we say - "whoever saves one soul - he saved the whole world". If I can save you from your "catastrophic" thinking (that's the term used in psychology for the pessimistic way you think) and your depression, It compares, for me, to saving the world.
> Are you serious?Does that really enter your head?You actually think that?I am puzzled.Is that not just part of your illness?That you worry that others are feeling like you did/do? What is your job now?
> Take care,
> Jimmy
>
> BTW I checked my e-mail with no posting of you as of now.Whoops sorry about that.I meant to mail you and got sidetracked(you know what its like?)I will be mailing you though so please do keep an eye out,ok?Seems I caused quite a debate with the health care issues I mentioned ages ago, very interesting though.
Bye for now,
Catherine
Posted by jimmygold70 on January 3, 2002, at 15:10:51
In reply to Re: venlafaxine PLEASE READ jimmy gold » jimmygold70, posted by catherine1812 on January 2, 2002, at 16:16:50
> Why should I have to fight to get proper health care??I shouldn't have to keep changing my doctor until I find one that can be bothered to listen to me and help.There are not many good doctors around in my opinion.If I had the money I would go private-but I haven't.(not that I think the docs are any better,but at least if you are paying them they are more likely to listen and help.)
You won't be able to stick me with your pessimism. I believe everything will end up well. You're on your way to recovery. Being here in psycho-babble is a good way toward it.
> That's a part of your illness. Start moving things around. You know, in Judaism we say - "whoever saves one soul - he saved the whole world". If I can save you from your "catastrophic" thinking (that's the term used in psychology for the pessimistic way you think) and your depression, It compares, for me, to saving the world.
>
> > Are you serious?Does that really enter your head?You actually think that?I am puzzled.Is that not just part of your illness?That you worry that others are feeling like you did/do? What is your job now?Ye, I actually think that, no that's not a part of my illness (-: I have many other parts, though... My job now is a minor researcher of psychology at a large university. I get paid less than 5$ an hour. That's another part of my problem (-:
> Whoops sorry about that.I meant to mail you and got sidetracked(you know what its like?)I will be mailing you though so please do keep an eye out,ok?Seems I caused quite a debate with the health care issues I mentioned ages ago, very interesting though.
> Bye for now,
> Catherine
>
Mail, I'm waiting.Jimmy
This is the end of the thread.
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