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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by vincent on November 6, 2001, at 18:47:40
Hello everybody!
After trying with lot of SSRI, TCA and neuroleptyc, for my dystimic disorder, I would like to try GHB, for improving mood, emotions, activity and sleep.
I've red lot about this med, it seem to be very effective but I've red also it could be noxious and dangerous.
Can you help me to know if it's true? Does anyone tried this med? What effects? What doses? What side effects?
Do you know internet sites treating about it?
Every information you could give to me, will help me greatly!
Tanks you all.
Vincent
Posted by JGalt on November 6, 2001, at 23:31:50
In reply to GHB: Could anyone help me to know? Tks, posted by vincent on November 6, 2001, at 18:47:40
lol, I've used this med more than anything for my symptoms. Be aware it is completely illegal, unless you have a script for Xyrem or live outside the US.
In my biased opinion, it works quite well for dysthymia provided it is used in the correct manner. That is: 1. Do not take with a lot of food (seems to slow down it getting into your brain). 2. No more than 2.5 grams or milliliters per 6 hours (would cause dopamine buildup) 3. None before going to sleep (reduces formations of memories due to too much stage 4 sleep and not enough dreaming sleep, you start forgetting things easily...I once forgot to zip up my pants 4 times in one week before I figured out what it was).
Doses you'll have to learn yourself. No way to predict how much will effect you the way you want to. The only good generality is if you have indian blood in you, you'll probably need a significant amount more. Start with 1.5 grams, if you don't feel anything, take 2g after 4 hrs, still don't feel anything increase it to 2.5 after another 4 hrs, if it just feels mild increase it .25g. If you overshoot you'll feel sedated, and may have to go to sleep. 1.5-5 grams is the norm. 2-2.5 grams is probably average.
What does it feel like? Well the right dose will feel energizing, somewhat disinhibiting, LOT less anxiety, an in love feeling with life (not beyond reasonable boundaries), tend to be overall considerably more optimistic (don't let this allow you to trust people too much), much less irritable, more sharing and open, less likely to take things negatively, etc. Sometimes this loss of anxiety can be more than you'll like, it'll mean you'll have to focus harder if you're doing a mentally challenging task. Still, the fact that it has all the positives more than outweight this additional effort. Also, you'll never have to increase your dosage of the drug to get the same effects.
Side effects: Falling into an unrousable sleep for a few hrs(from too high of a dosage, if they do wake you, you won't remember and you'll act very out of it), confusion (too high of dosage), some people get nauseas off of too high a dose too (some puke, much higher chance if combined w/ alky, see below).
Those are the only ones I can think of...don't EVER combine with alcohol, the combination becomes incredibly toxic if you do, in fact, that's how people die off of ghb (also how many throw up). The lethal dosage is somewhere around 300grams, but if you're drinking some alcohol, even a normal dose could kill you (they use the same enzyme in the liver, this is part of the reason I believe). Other sedatives will also make it more lethal.
JGalt
Posted by vincent on November 7, 2001, at 7:22:06
In reply to GHB: Could anyone help me to know? Tks, posted by vincent on November 6, 2001, at 18:47:40
Thank you very much JGalt, your information about GHB are greatly important for me!
I'm not living in US but in Italy. Here the Ghb is classifed as "Pharm" but it's not illegal. So I think I could import it for "personal usage".
Thank you very much indeed and thanks to everybody that will add anything else!
Vincent
Posted by stjames on November 7, 2001, at 16:32:56
In reply to Re: GHB: Could anyone help me to know? Tks, posted by JGalt on November 6, 2001, at 23:31:50
Don't forget tolerance and addiction.
james
Posted by JGalt on November 7, 2001, at 22:55:45
In reply to Re: GHB: Could anyone help me to know? Tks, posted by stjames on November 7, 2001, at 16:32:56
> Don't forget tolerance and addiction.
>
> jamesJames,
In my experience those terms don't apply to GHB. After 6 months of usage, I have not had to increase my initial starting dose by any amount to achieve the same effects. I know of no one who has either. There is also no temptation to take a higher dosage to achieve better effects. There is an optimum dosage unique for every person on an empty stomach. Go lower than that, you don't feel it as much and the effects aren't as noticeable or pleasurable. Go higher than that and feel too sedated or out of touch. Go say 2x your optimum dosage and you will pass out. Like I said, the amount doesn't change, except marginally downward on an MAOi inhibitor.
Addiction. I would not describe it as addictive. It could be if you are intentionally or ignorantly abusing the chemical, but there is little reason to if one understands it. It causes the storage of dopamine while you are on it that is released when you come off. Thus, when you come off it, you have a nice stimulatory and pleasurable effect. This occurs 4-6 hours after administration. If one doses ghb again before one comes off of it, dopamine builds up higher. If one does it several does this for say a day or more in a row, then it builds up to rather high levels, and when then when the person comes off, it is released, causing anxiety and overstimulation. This is easily prevented by never dosing again within the 4-6 hrs, or at least never more than twice in a row. If you do this, you will not have any withdraw symptoms. Without withdraw symptoms, one is not compelled to have to use it again, it is only if one wants to.
The way I see it, if something doesn't have withdraw symptoms that are not easily avoidable or tolerance, then it cannot be said to be any more addictive than any other pleasurable activity.
JGalt
Posted by vincent on November 8, 2001, at 11:44:55
In reply to GHB: Could anyone help me to know? Tks, posted by vincent on November 6, 2001, at 18:47:40
Tnks JGalt and stjames for your important counsels!
I've another question for you (i saw you're experienced!) and for everybody:
Has GHB a therapeutic effect or is it a simply drug?
I'ld to say: after a period of usage does it improve your dopaminergic status or, for reach same results, you must take it again and again and when you stop it you're at the beginning again?
Tnk you wery much indeed for you answer!
Vincent
Posted by stjames on November 8, 2001, at 15:45:39
In reply to Re: GHB: Could anyone help me to know? Tks, posted by JGalt on November 7, 2001, at 22:55:45
> > Don't forget tolerance and addiction.
> >
> > james
>
> James,
>
> In my experience those terms don't apply to GHB. After 6 months of usage, I have not had to increase my initial starting dose by any amount to achieve the same effects.
James here.....Give me a break !!!!!!! PLEASE !!!!
There is a big GHB problem here, it is used as a date rape drug, I have tried it and it is clearly addictive. I have watched several become addicted to is and show all the signs of a barbutiate type addiction. The slurring of words, inability to drive w/o running off the road, falling asleep with lit cigs, ect.
Posted by stjames on November 8, 2001, at 15:55:06
In reply to Re: GHB: Could anyone help me to know? Tks, posted by stjames on November 8, 2001, at 15:45:39
Take a look at this info, please educate yourself:
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ghb/ghb_addiction.shtml
http://www.projectghb.org/
http://www.ghbkills.com/addiction.htm
http://www.trendydrugs.org/ghb_addiction.htm
http://www.thirteen.org/cgi-in/nf/closetohome/a/3--82http://www.projectghb.org/addiction/success.htm
http://users.lycaeum.org/~ghbfaq/
http://ramindy.sghms.ac.uk/~ltg/ghb.htm
http://www.doctordeluca.com/Library/References/GHB_refs.htm
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/01/slides/3754s1_04_Dyer/sld011.htm
Posted by JGalt on November 8, 2001, at 18:29:00
In reply to Re: GHB: Could anyone help me to know? Tks, posted by stjames on November 8, 2001, at 15:55:06
James,
Indeed it has been used as a date rape drug. Alcohol has many thousand more times. Any benzo could be used in the same way. A sleeping pill or two dissolved in a drink would produce the same effect. This is a classic case of an inanimate object (chemical) being blamed for a person's terrible thoughts and actions. If it weren't for the chemical, it is likely the same person would have resorted to much more violent methods of fulfilling their unethical desires. Indeed, the banning of GHB will cause a more terrible form of date rape, as now innocent women with nacrolepsy won't be as easily able to get the stage 4 sleep they will need and some stalker will come and rape her when she passes out, and the people who decided that it should be banned are almost as guilty as the ones who raped her.
I have read those links you provided, all of them, before I ever tried it. As I said, you have to have control of yourself when you take it. No more than once every 6 hrs, no more than a dose that reduces anxiety and causes a pleasureable feeling without causing sedation. If you use it to that point that is clearly drug ABUSE. Any drug we talk about on here can be used in an abusive manner. You have to regulate your dose and take responsibility for your actions. Several of those links (the ones that weren't funded by the government) even mention that it isn't tolerance inducing or addictive if used properly. Driving is not an acceptable activity while on a sedating dose of the chemical. If you are on a lower dose then it is no different than a benzo. If you fall asleep with a lit cigarette, that's WAY too high of a dose. You have to find the right dose, and then use it responsibly. Some people are not capable of that. If that is the case, they should never use GHB. That type of person is probably much more likely to be the type to just want to get high and then buy it on the black market and use it indiscriminately, thus furthering the wrongdoing of banning it, as it prevents those of us who can use it responsibly and would benefit greatly from it from getting it.
I'm not sure what type of drug regimine you're on, but if your doctor prescribes you klonopin, you don't dose it so high that you can't talk straight or drive right.I'd like to know, how can there be an addiction to something that does not require you to use a higher dose than before to achieve the same effects, that only induces withdraw symptoms when used improperly, that has practically no bad effects until one chooses to try to abuse it (by dosing it more than once every 6 hrs) with no prompting from his/her body. If you know what the drugs actions are, you know that dosing it more often than that and at higher doses than you need is the only way to achieve the negative sides.
Vincent, that depends on who you ask and who you are. Some people use it for a few months and finds themselves cured. This seems to be primarily people with mild forms of anxiety, irritability, dysthmia, depression, etc. I am not one of those. For me, the best relief is to use it once every 6-8 hours. I have taken periods off of it several times before but returned to the I-hate-life state that I was at before I ever tried it. Indeed, I was fully intent on ending on my life prior to using it, and I return to that feeling whenever I come off for a few days. It has been called one of the best antisuicidal drugs out there, I would tend to agree. Benzo's return me to a similar feeling as being off of ghb for too long.
There are better drugs out there for normal depression, certainly drugs that are much less dose dependant, but for a certain subset of us it is the most desireable chemical available (I say chemical as opposed to drug since it is present in your bodily tissues and in food in small amounts). I recommend you research everything you can find on it and then make an informed decision on whether or not it is right for you. The same goes for any drug or chemical you choose to ingest.
JGalt
Posted by vincent on November 8, 2001, at 19:17:11
In reply to GHB: Could anyone help me to know? Tks, posted by vincent on November 6, 2001, at 18:47:40
Hi to everybody!
Tks stjames and JGalt for your precious and experienced informations.
My position is this: I'm suffering of dystimia with all the classic disorders and implications.
I've tryed all kind of AD (ssri, tca, neuroleptic) with terrible sedation and aggravation of my situation. I've instead reached positive results using dopaminergic ones (amisulpride) even if only little steps and not enough.
I'm sure that my disorder is depending on an under-regulation of the dopaminergic system, and now i'm trying to find a "brighter" for my low mood and ideation.
I hope I will still read you!
Tnks again for your answer.
Vincent
Posted by stjames on November 8, 2001, at 21:30:32
In reply to Re: GHB: Could anyone help me to know? Tks, posted by vincent on November 8, 2001, at 19:17:11
Mood is not a tit for tat more of 5HT less of dopamine thing. It is never this simple (something
as complex as neurobology) so any assumptions you
make based on this simplistic model will be flawed, just like the model.Please note that all models for mood/psyco are flawed as we can't beguin to understand fully something so complex as neurobiology.
James
Posted by stjames on November 8, 2001, at 21:32:34
In reply to Re: GHB: Could anyone help me to know? Tks, posted by JGalt on November 8, 2001, at 18:29:00
As I said, you have to have control of yourself when you take it. No more than once every 6 hrs, no more than a dose that reduces anxiety and causes a pleasureable feeling without causing sedation. If you use it to that point that is clearly drug ABUSE. Any drug we talk about on here can be used in an abusive manner.
This is what every drug abuser starts out saying, "I can handle it"Good luck. Don't drive.
james
Posted by vincent on November 9, 2001, at 7:43:06
In reply to GHB: Could anyone help me to know? Tks, posted by vincent on November 6, 2001, at 18:47:40
Hi James!
Tnks for your last answer.
I could be in accordance with what you say about tolerance and addiction, in facts i'm very scared and prudent about use of drugs!
I know that neurobiology is something complex, but I can't forget that years of 5HT modulation using serotoninergic meds, had absolutely aggarvated my status, and few weeks of dopaminergic ones had improved the above in all the sides.
I do not forget neurobiological scientific bases but I also watch to the simply facts: these are the facts, nice or bad they seems!
I'm actually looking around me very prudently and achieve the more knowledge, about possibile use of meds, that I can.
Tnks for your contribute!
Vincent
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