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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 16 to 40 of 41. Go back in thread:
Posted by Elizabeth on June 27, 2001, at 11:41:33
In reply to More information.., posted by Mikeey on June 27, 2001, at 3:29:45
> Here are some more info on my "case".
> - I've seen several (3) neurologists and have had a complete neurological checkup (MRI, EEG, neuro exam, mental status...) - normal.Some types of seizure activity aren't picked up by regular EEGs. But anyway, the seizure thing is unlikely; it's just something that I mentioned because it is a possibility and some psych drugs lower the seizure threshold.
> Could the fact that I was diagnosed with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder as a child inrease the likelyhood of this beeing symptoms of an anxiety disorder?
Oh yes, absolutely.
In my experience, childhood-onset psych disorders like depression, ADHD, OCD, etc., do not always go away as you get older. In some cases, they can get worse as you're exposed to the stresses of adolescent and adult life.
-elizabeth (an early-onset depressive)
Posted by Zo on June 28, 2001, at 2:04:54
In reply to Re: Please, does anyone know what this might be?, posted by Lawrence S. on June 25, 2001, at 12:31:42
. . is a classic Temporal Lobe Epilepsy seizure. . .as are many frightening, nearly "psychedelic" perceptions, sometimes called Big & Small. . .feeling at a strange literal distance from everything. And one is aware, one does not blank out. It can feel like you must be crazy. . .but it's only TLE, and nothing to be overly concerned with if the symptoms are managealbe, as are mine, by a fairly innocuous med like Neurontin.
TLE often does not show up on EEG. . .An epileptologist is a better bet than plain neuro.
Good luck,
Zo
Posted by lawrence S. on June 29, 2001, at 2:34:01
In reply to Re: aha! Deja Vu, posted by Zo on June 28, 2001, at 2:04:54
> . . is a classic Temporal Lobe Epilepsy seizure. . .as are many frightening, nearly "psychedelic" perceptions, sometimes called Big & Small. . .feeling at a strange literal distance from everything. And one is aware, one does not blank out. It can feel like you must be crazy. . .but it's only TLE, and nothing to be overly concerned with if the symptoms are managealbe, as are mine, by a fairly innocuous med like Neurontin.
>
> TLE often does not show up on EEG. . .An epileptologist is a better bet than plain neuro.
>
> Good luck,
> Zo
>
> Thank you Zo for that invaluble info. For years I was sure that I was going crazy. When I told my psychiatrist about the Deja Vu feeling he looked like he was about to call the men in the white suits. I will look into this more. Hopefully it is something benign like TLE.
Can you tell me more about the symptoms you had?
>Lawrence S.
Posted by Elizabeth on June 29, 2001, at 8:56:29
In reply to Re: aha! Deja Vu, posted by Zo on June 28, 2001, at 2:04:54
> . . is a classic Temporal Lobe Epilepsy seizure. . .
Partial seizures with temporal foci come in so many flavours that it's hard to imagine any one sort that could be called "classic!" :-) (One could say that some symptoms are "classic," though, such as olfactory hallucinations and deja vu.)
Lawrence, could you say more about what you describe as "deja vu" feelings? The dream flashbacks are interesting. Anybody else have these, and if so, what causes them?
> And one is aware, one does not blank out.
In simple partial seizures, yes. Complex partial seizures (which can be localised in the temporal lobe) do include changes in level of consciousness.
-elizabeth
Posted by lawrence S. on June 30, 2001, at 8:24:46
In reply to Re: aha! Deja Vu, posted by Elizabeth on June 29, 2001, at 8:56:29
> > . . is a classic Temporal Lobe Epilepsy seizure. . .
>
> Partial seizures with temporal foci come in so many flavours that it's hard to imagine any one sort that could be called "classic!" :-) (One could say that some symptoms are "classic," though, such as olfactory hallucinations and deja vu.)
>
> Lawrence, could you say more about what you describe as "deja vu" feelings? The dream flashbacks are interesting. Anybody else have these, and if so, what causes them?
>
>
> > I'll try. This is difficult to put into words. And I've been trying to forget these horible feelings. When I get these episodes It feels as if I'm slipping into a coma. But I've never been in one. I don't know why I choose that word. And it's like half of my brain is awake and the other half is sleeping. Fragments of dreams come out of the blue. but there all jumbled together like a radio thats pulling in several stations at once with a lot of static mixed in.
The deja-vu is so intense that time doesn't seem to exist and reality is like a skipping record that has been skipping for eternity.
These symptoms began when I started taking Halcion (bezodiazepine sleeping pill). Which I only took for 3weeks.
A.Ds and Klonopin have almost eliminated these bizarre experiences.
>
>Lawrence S.
>
>
> > And one is aware, one does not blank out.
>
> In simple partial seizures, yes. Complex partial seizures (which can be localised in the temporal lobe) do include changes in level of consciousness.
>
> -elizabeth
Posted by Zo on July 1, 2001, at 1:29:10
In reply to Re: aha! Deja Vu, posted by Elizabeth on June 29, 2001, at 8:56:29
> > . . is a classic Temporal Lobe Epilepsy seizure. . .
>
> Partial seizures with temporal foci come in so many flavours that it's hard to imagine any one sort that could be called "classic!" :-) (One could say that some symptoms are "classic," though, such as olfactory hallucinations and deja vu.)Elizabeth. . .I feel uncomfortable with your post. . like it's a corrective. I admire your knowledge, but I didn't come here to speak about my conditions in order to be corrected. Do you have TLE?
No?
I'm also a writer, not a scientist. I don't see any restrictions on PyschoBabble to speaking anecdotally.
Now, shall we begin again? Deja vu experiences - as well as jamais vu, are classic sensations whilst having seizures of the temporal lobes.
Good enough?
Zo
Posted by Zo on July 1, 2001, at 1:41:01
In reply to Re: aha! Deja Vu, posted by lawrence S. on June 29, 2001, at 2:34:01
Lawrence. . .I've had every weird symptom in the book. . .only there is no book. Except there is a book, named Seized, now sadly out of print but look at library, I found one used online for not too much. TLE seizures can mimic mania, include religious experiences, indeed some say the great mystics and their visions were forms of TLE - it is hard to argue where electrical sensations leave off and the spirit begins. You can get a feeling for the variety of experiences on the Massachusetts General Neuro board. I am photosensitive, which means the "blinking" lights of a bridge whipping past on a sunny afternoon used to induce terrible, frightening spells where my vision suddenly seemed to be coming from down a long tunnel, my own hands on the wheel very strange and very far away. Things can seem minute or too large. Some people smell things. . .I've seen "animals" scampering away out of the corner of my eye. . .It all sounds quite mad, of course. Some people have migraine-like auras, and feel nauseous; the two conditions are interrelated. . . .My eyes still can go out of focus if I look at a certain kind of disappearing graphic on the web or on TV. . .The flickering of fire. . .kind of trance-like. And all of this, of course, I kept to myself. . .eventually I began to feel "brain sick" at 4 or 5 every day. . And it wasn't til I was put on Neurontin for pain and all these other symptoms went away that I began to be able to examine what I had lived with and be out front about it to my pdoc. . in part because they are subtle, almost mystical, very subjective experiences. A few times I've been told I go into a stare. Hyperventiliating brought on sudden disorientation. It would take a post much longer than this to explain! Do a web search. . .some interesting writing around. You'll get a flavor for it that way.
Zo
Posted by geekUK on July 1, 2001, at 4:17:50
In reply to Re: aha! Deja Vu » lawrence S., posted by Zo on July 1, 2001, at 1:41:01
I have read a few posts on TLE, what interests me is I have some strange things happen that I tipcaly dont think about but could they be tle? derealisation/ depersonalisation. about a sense of distance and unreality of the world, as if your looking at the world through the wrong end of the binoculars (just the feeling), and a sense of bodily unreality, my body becomes ultra sensitised (but no heartbeat feeling). I did used to have panic attacks, but I only had a few. these dont feel 'panicky' uncomfortable is better. this is not enduced by effexor.
the second and most important, ever sinse I was a kid/particularly then. I got a big/little attack!!
classic example lying in bed, getting strange feeling, hands feel tingley and tounge, experiance a feeling (somewhere??) that something was big and small at the same time/ or thin/fat. sometimes accompanyed by a sound like a a tape playing a voice at ultra high speed. My 1st love used to get these things too, kinda thought it made us soulmates!!. I was wondering if anyone knew what this is or if indeed we were soulmates!!
Posted by Elizabeth on July 1, 2001, at 15:49:31
In reply to Re: aha! Deja Vu, posted by lawrence S. on June 30, 2001, at 8:24:46
Lawrence,
That sounds really scary, and it doesn't sound like typical descriptions of panic or anxiety attacks. It might very well be a type of seizure (partial, not generalised or "grand mal"), and I think that you should talk to your GP about seeing a neurologist for a consultation and/or having an EEG.
The dream flashbacks, together with the response to antidepressants (albeit with Klonopin), have me a little puzzled. A multiple sleep latency test (sleep study) might be in order (this includes a sleep EEG).
> These symptoms began when I started taking Halcion (bezodiazepine sleeping pill). Which I only took for 3weeks.
> A.Ds and Klonopin have almost eliminated these bizarre experiences.Huh. Which ADs?
I wonder if the experiences might have been triggered by rebound symptoms. At what time of day did you first start having these attacks (for want of a more precise word :-) ). Halcion is a very short-acting benzodiazepine and does have the potential to cause rebound insomnia. I'm not sure about its anticonvulsant properties compared to other benzos, but if you already had a lowered seizure threshold (for whatever reason), Halcion rebound could conceivably push you over the edge, so to speak.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on July 1, 2001, at 16:25:56
In reply to Re: aha! Deja Vu » Elizabeth, posted by Zo on July 1, 2001, at 1:29:10
> > > . . is a classic Temporal Lobe Epilepsy seizure. . .
> >
> > Partial seizures with temporal foci come in so many flavours that it's hard to imagine any one sort that could be called "classic!" :-) (One could say that some symptoms are "classic," though, such as olfactory hallucinations and deja vu.)
>
> Elizabeth. . .I feel uncomfortable with your post. . like it's a corrective. I admire your knowledge, but I didn't come here to speak about my conditions in order to be corrected.I suppose you could call it "corrective," but I think that "additive" is more descriptive of the part you chose to cite. The "classic" thing is just semantics: I was taking an opportunity to comment on the incredible variety of rather curious experiences reported by people with TLE.
(There was a part of my post that I'd call "corrective," but it was a completely different point than the remark you quoted.)
I'm sure that, as a writer, you appreciate the value of clarity. Please don't take my post as a threat or attack of any kind. That's not at all the spirit in which it was intended.
> Do you have TLE?
I would hope that you'd recognise that not having TLE does not equate to ignorance of TLE (and, for that matter, that having TLE does not make one an expert on it). But since you ask, I have had limbic partial seizures, although I don't have epilepsy. I'm also generally curious about the type of experiences that can be generated by temporal lobe seizures, and about the similarity of some of these experiences to those associated with "psychiatric" events (such as panic attacks and dissociative states).
> I don't see any restrictions on PyschoBabble to speaking anecdotally.
Me neither, and in any case, I don't presume to enforce the rules here -- although I don't see any restrictions on disagreeing as such, much less on simply adding to a point made by another poster.
Of course it's okay to post your own experiences. It's also okay to add that experiences that are described in some of the same terms as yours may not have the same cause as yours, or that TLE (for example) produces a number of different types of experiences (not just the type of experiences that one individual with TLE has).
Everybody has something of value to say. I'm sorry to hear that my attempt to elaborate on your post caused you discomfort. Really, the "classic symptoms" issue shouldn't be taken too seriously (IMO).
What type of writing do you do, BTW?
-elizabeth
Posted by Zo on July 1, 2001, at 22:56:20
In reply to silly arguments :-) » Zo, posted by Elizabeth on July 1, 2001, at 16:25:56
Thanks, Elizabeth. Not major discomfort, you'll notice, just some. . .And I think I pretty well knew you would receive it well.
I am a novelist, tho I've also just completed a book called The Fatigue Chronicles. ..about Chronic Fatigue, depression, life, death, the usual. Not nearly so depressing as it sounds! May have to put it up on the web for the time being, am still financially dependent on abusive, well-to-do ex who I know isn't too tickled about the truth (NPD / Sociopath / Schizoid.)
(*That's* going in a whole nother novel :o) )
Zo
Posted by Mitch on July 2, 2001, at 12:09:02
In reply to Re: aha! Deja Vu, posted by geekUK on July 1, 2001, at 4:17:50
GUK,
Just an FYI, I have noticed recently that if I sit too close (within five or six feet) to the TV and watch it attentively for very long and go outside and drive around I feel all "spaced out" for a couple of hours. I just don't feel like "I'm there". It is like the whole world is just a movie I am watching that I am not part of. I just have a suspicion of TLE and family epilepsy, though.
Mitch
> I have read a few posts on TLE, what interests me is I have some strange things happen that I tipcaly dont think about but could they be tle? derealisation/ depersonalisation. about a sense of distance and unreality of the world, as if your looking at the world through the wrong end of the binoculars (just the feeling), and a sense of bodily unreality, my body becomes ultra sensitised (but no heartbeat feeling). I did used to have panic attacks, but I only had a few. these dont feel 'panicky' uncomfortable is better. this is not enduced by effexor.
> the second and most important, ever sinse I was a kid/particularly then. I got a big/little attack!!
> classic example lying in bed, getting strange feeling, hands feel tingley and tounge, experiance a feeling (somewhere??) that something was big and small at the same time/ or thin/fat. sometimes accompanyed by a sound like a a tape playing a voice at ultra high speed. My 1st love used to get these things too, kinda thought it made us soulmates!!. I was wondering if anyone knew what this is or if indeed we were soulmates!!
Posted by Zo on July 2, 2001, at 23:42:55
In reply to Re: aha! Deja Vu dreamy states » geekUK, posted by Mitch on July 2, 2001, at 12:09:02
Mitch,
I'm not aware of TLE seizure states lasting for a few hours. . .but then, it's relationship to migraine. . .why the hell not. I do know the perceptual feeling that everything is a movie. Depersonalization doesn't quite say how literal this and similar TLE states are. But for me, anyway, they pass after a loooong few minutes, and on Neurontin, have largely disappeared.> Just an FYI, I have noticed recently that if I sit too close (within five or six feet) to the TV and watch it attentively for very long and go outside and drive around I feel all "spaced out" for a couple of hours. I just don't feel like "I'm there". It is like the whole world is just a movie I am watching that I am not part of. I just have a suspicion of TLE and family epilepsy, though.
>
> Mitch
>
> > I have read a few posts on TLE, what interests me is I have some strange things happen that I tipcaly dont think about but could they be tle? derealisation/ depersonalisation. about a sense of distance and unreality of the world, as if your looking at the world through the wrong end of the binoculars (just the feeling), and a sense of bodily unreality, my body becomes ultra sensitised (but no heartbeat feeling). I did used to have panic attacks, but I only had a few. these dont feel 'panicky' uncomfortable is better. this is not enduced by effexor.
> > the second and most important, ever sinse I was a kid/particularly then. I got a big/little attack!!
> > classic example lying in bed, getting strange feeling, hands feel tingley and tounge, experiance a feeling (somewhere??) that something was big and small at the same time/ or thin/fat. sometimes accompanyed by a sound like a a tape playing a voice at ultra high speed. My 1st love used to get these things too, kinda thought it made us soulmates!!. I was wondering if anyone knew what this is or if indeed we were soulmates!!
Posted by Mitch on July 3, 2001, at 0:05:09
In reply to Re: aha! Deja Vu dreamy states » Mitch, posted by Zo on July 2, 2001, at 23:42:55
Zo,
What I am describing is not acutely *episodic* in the case of a seizure or a panic attack for example. All I can say is that when I experience perceptual stimulii it tends to "echo" or "hang-around" in my head. Actually, I think the experience I described is actually quite common-you know after you come out of a movie theatre in the daytime after being inside for a couple of hours? You have to get your "land-legs" so to speak. You are somewhat disoriented. It just takes a lot longer for me to "shift gears" back into a different perceptual frame of mind. I have also noticed this especially with stimulant meds or AD's that boost norepinephrine which helps with my ADHD. Sound becomes more "directional" and "discrete", whereas normally it just seems to come from inside my head for the most part. There is a shift from the "subjective" perception in my mind of sound to a more *objective* experience of *listening* to the music.
Mitch
> Mitch,
> I'm not aware of TLE seizure states lasting for a few hours. . .but then, it's relationship to migraine. . .why the hell not. I do know the perceptual feeling that everything is a movie. Depersonalization doesn't quite say how literal this and similar TLE states are. But for me, anyway, they pass after a loooong few minutes, and on Neurontin, have largely disappeared.
>
> > Just an FYI, I have noticed recently that if I sit too close (within five or six feet) to the TV and watch it attentively for very long and go outside and drive around I feel all "spaced out" for a couple of hours. I just don't feel like "I'm there". It is like the whole world is just a movie I am watching that I am not part of. I just have a suspicion of TLE and family epilepsy, though.
> >
> > Mitch
Posted by Elizabeth on July 3, 2001, at 13:45:03
In reply to Re: silly arguments :-) » Elizabeth, posted by Zo on July 1, 2001, at 22:56:20
> Thanks, Elizabeth. Not major discomfort, you'll notice, just some. . .And I think I pretty well knew you would receive it well.
Well, thank you. I'm glad the misunderstanding was only a minor one.
> I am a novelist, tho I've also just completed a book called The Fatigue Chronicles. ..about Chronic Fatigue, depression, life, death, the usual. Not nearly so depressing as it sounds!
Depressing? It sounds so bouncy and cheerful! :-) Is it a novel, biography, ...?
Hmm, so you have CFS too? Is that related to the epilepsy? How do you deal with it?
> May have to put it up on the web for the time being, am still financially dependent on abusive, well-to-do ex who I know isn't too tickled about the truth (NPD / Sociopath / Schizoid.)
Yikes! I've heard my share of "horrible ex" stories, but that sounds exceptionally unpleasant. I hope you can get the money thing straightened out so you don't have to have anything more to do with your ex.
> (*That's* going in a whole nother novel :o) )
Sounds like it will make an...*interesting* one! (Be sure to make the character a really obvious caricature of the real person, with the name, social security number, etc. changed only slightly. < g >)
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on July 3, 2001, at 13:51:16
In reply to Re: aha! Deja Vu dreamy states » Mitch, posted by Zo on July 2, 2001, at 23:42:55
> I'm not aware of TLE seizure states lasting for a few hours. . .but then, it's relationship to migraine. . .why the hell not.
There is such a thing as "complex partial status epilepticus," but it's (supposedly) very rare. I think the CW is that if a partial seizure goes on for very long, it almost always becomes generalised. A few minutes (or even seconds), like Zo described, is the usual duration.
OTOH, I've heard of people having "blackouts" lasting several hours or more that didn't seem to be related to drug use or a dissociative disorder; presumably there's something weird going on there.
> I do know the perceptual feeling that everything is a movie.
Me too. (Well said, BTW, Mitch.)
-elizabeth
Posted by geekUK on July 3, 2001, at 14:27:08
In reply to Re: aha! Deja Vu dreamy states » geekUK, posted by Mitch on July 2, 2001, at 12:09:02
I kinda lost the thread earlyer don t know who was talking 2 who.
yeah i was on about getting brief, 2-3min max periods of derealisation when things feel like I am sunk back 100 miles into my skull and everything is distant (no visual sympt.)
and
As A kid mainly I got strong attacks of tactile halucinations of a contradictory nature, the feeling that something was big and little and thin and fat, coupled with tingleing in arm and legs and tongue, occasional auditory halluc. as if speech was being played back really fast without be comprehendable.consiousness is never lost.
any ideas guys and gals
MC
Posted by Mitch on July 3, 2001, at 23:20:15
In reply to back to me (he he), posted by geekUK on July 3, 2001, at 14:27:08
GUK, also Elizabeth and Zo,
Besides the "dreamy" derealisation or "movie-like" episodes (longer lasting) I have had *sudden* illusions on Prozac (I have already described elsewhere)where I *suddenly* felt like the vehicle I was driving in was enormous and I was about 20 foot off the pavement(like a flying tank!) and simultaneously feeling very panicky (happened only at nite-I know that Prozac can cause nightime "subhallucinations"). Then it abated in just a few moments.
In the past I have had some deja-vu experiences (not lately-maybe because I am on anti-convulsant mood stabilizers?), but they weren't deja-vu experiences like people normally describe them or how we popularly imagine them I guess. It wasn't like you walked into a strange place and it felt like you had been there before (in a simple way), it was more like interacting (talking-communicating) with another person (processing information) and I *suddenly* just felt for certain that I had said precisely the same words to this strange person that I had to another familiar person (in the past-in my memory) and was hearing the same responses as well and this was accompanied with the sensation of not being in my body-like I was outside looking at our conversation (not really there taking part-just observing myself going through the motions). This was not during any prominent depressive episode-I know that you can get very depressed and feel outside of your body. Sorry, but a lot of this "phenomena" is kind of tough to describe-I feel like "I have got it", but then it eludes my ability to describe it.
Another way perhaps of looking at it maybe...is that similar information-processing situations creates a lot of "hits" memory-wise very quickly and my mind creates a very fast quick *analog* or *model* of the event and I end up getting distracted by the sense-memories of previous "models" and that sets up the derealization and feeling "outside looking in" and the deja-vu. Just theorizing,
Does this create any "hits" with any TLE experiences, anybody?
Mitch
Mitch
> I kinda lost the thread earlyer don t know who was talking 2 who.
> yeah i was on about getting brief, 2-3min max periods of derealisation when things feel like I am sunk back 100 miles into my skull and everything is distant (no visual sympt.)
> and
> As A kid mainly I got strong attacks of tactile halucinations of a contradictory nature, the feeling that something was big and little and thin and fat, coupled with tingleing in arm and legs and tongue, occasional auditory halluc. as if speech was being played back really fast without be comprehendable.
>
> consiousness is never lost.
> any ideas guys and gals
> MC
Posted by Zo on July 4, 2001, at 2:19:08
In reply to back to me (he he), posted by geekUK on July 3, 2001, at 14:27:08
> yeah i was on about getting brief, 2-3min max periods of derealisation when things feel like I am sunk back 100 miles into my skull and everything is distant (no visual sympt.)
Exactly. These states are so hard to describe. I posted somewhere abt. having a photosensitive-provoked one while driving (scary, but it passed) where my hands on the steering wheel were a thousand miles away.. .
> As A kid mainly I got strong attacks of tactile halucinations of a contradictory nature, the feeling that something was big and little and thin and fat, coupled with tingleing in arm and legs and tongue, occasional auditory halluc. as if speech was being played back really fast without be comprehendable.
>
> consiousness is never lost.
> any ideas guys and gals
> MCThe ol' classic "Big and Small" of temporal lobe seizures. . and perhaps other kinds too, I don't know. I, too, had them when I was little, especially with fevers or when falling asleep, tho never the auditory part or tingling. Neurontin especially helps with TLE, which is great because most other anti-epileptics s**k.
(Say, just how strict is this Dr. Bob guy anyway.)Zo
BrainTalk - go to Epilepsy board
http://neuro-mancer.mgh.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi
Posted by Zo on July 4, 2001, at 2:37:27
In reply to Re: back to me (he he) TLE? » geekUK, posted by Mitch on July 3, 2001, at 23:20:15
> Does this create any "hits" with any TLE experiences, anybody?
>
> MitchAbsolutely, Mitch. It's a very tough thing to describe, but I can identify with most everything you write. These are subjective states, after all, and the English language simply does not lend itself to describing brain sensations *at* all!
Zo
Posted by Zo on July 4, 2001, at 2:46:10
In reply to no more silly arguments :-) » Zo, posted by Elizabeth on July 3, 2001, at 13:45:03
> Depressing? It sounds so bouncy and cheerful! :-) Is it a novel, biography, ...?Nonfiction. I've written alot, and thought I'd take a stab at describing the Chronic Fatigue life, in all its existential glory. . it's quite a peculiar thing.
> Hmm, so you have CFS too? Is that related to the epilepsy? How do you deal with it?
Seizures sure come under the CFS umbrella, more than people want to admit, or know. . .In my case both nature and "nurture," family dopaminergic vulnerability, probably that genetric glitch discovered on the dopamine receptor site, lots of ADD and genius. . .hard to separate from DDT exposures in childhood, later pesticide exposures which triggered full-scale CFS and other environmental factors.
I deal with it with a *whole* lot of drugs. . .unlike most CFS people, who don't know what they're missing: Dex, Neurontin (fab for FM pain!) Effexor, Valium, and damned Zyprexa, which is helping my writing no end but has made me. . . FAT!
> (Be sure to make the character a really obvious caricature of the real person, with the name, social security number, etc. changed only slightly. < g >)
>
> -elizabethLOL. My pdoc has this theory that if I portray ex as the foolish ass he is, he won't be *about* to raise his hand and say, Hey, that jerk she wrote about is me. . .! But with NPDs, you never know! The best advice I've gotten so far is, Give that character a *really* tiny, um, appendage.
Zo
Posted by Elizabeth on July 5, 2001, at 23:12:31
In reply to Re: no more silly arguments :-), posted by Zo on July 4, 2001, at 2:46:10
> > Depressing? It sounds so bouncy and cheerful! :-) Is it a novel, biography, ...?
>
> Nonfiction. I've written alot, and thought I'd take a stab at describing the Chronic Fatigue life, in all its existential glory. . it's quite a peculiar thing.Yes, it is indeed. What approach are you taking?
Say, is any of your writing on the web? (Besides psycho-babble posts, of course < g >) If so, I'd love to read it.
> > Hmm, so you have CFS too? Is that related to the epilepsy? How do you deal with it?
>
> Seizures sure come under the CFS umbrella, more than people want to admit, or know. . .Well, CFS is probably a condition that can have a number of different etiologies (like other phenomenologically-defined disorders). But I'd imagine that interictal symptoms could include chronic fatigue.
> In my case both nature and "nurture," family dopaminergic vulnerability, probably that genetric glitch discovered on the dopamine receptor site, lots of ADD and genius. . .hard to separate from DDT exposures in childhood, later pesticide exposures which triggered full-scale CFS and other environmental factors.
That's interesting. How old are you (if it's not too personal :-) ), and how did you come to be exposed to pesticides to an extent that it could cause serious sequelae?
Does epilepsy run in your family? What about other, possibly related conditions? (My family history is loaded not only with depression, but also other conditions which might be related, notably migraine and cardiovascular disease; I'm interested in the common predisposing factors.)
> I deal with it with a *whole* lot of drugs. . .unlike most CFS people, who don't know what they're missing: Dex, Neurontin (fab for FM pain!) Effexor, Valium, and damned Zyprexa, which is helping my writing no end but has made me. . . FAT!
I gained a little weight on Zyprexa -- nothing compared to Nardil, but then, Nardil actually worked. Interestingly, Nardil also made my chronic back pain go away (the only other things that have worked are large doses of Soma (unreliable), a local corticosteroid injection into the relevant facet joints, and opioids). I bet MAOIs would be good for FMS.
A local doctor who has a lot of experience with fibromyalgia, epilepsy, and a lot of other conditions on the interface of psychiatry and neurology, says that he's had a lot of success using Meridia (sibutramine) for fibro. I thought that was interesting. Do you know if Effexor is used a lot?
> LOL. My pdoc has this theory that if I portray ex as the foolish ass he is, he won't be *about* to raise his hand and say, Hey, that jerk she wrote about is me. . .! But with NPDs, you never know! The best advice I've gotten so far is, Give that character a *really* tiny, um, appendage.
Of course. That goes without saying!
On a related note, something I've been thinking about recently: do you know anything about the psychopharmacology of NPD? (Is it ever treated with medication? I bet that if a NP were to respond to medication, it would be assumed retroactively that there was a comorbid axis I disorder.)
-elizabeth
Posted by Zo on July 6, 2001, at 0:41:25
In reply to Re: no more silly arguments :-) » Zo, posted by Elizabeth on July 5, 2001, at 23:12:31
> Say, is any of your writing on the web? (Besides psycho-babble posts, of course < g >) If so, I'd love to read it.
>
Know any web designers? Am trying to put a site up.
> >
> > Seizures sure come under the CFS umbrella, more than people want to admit, or know. . .
>
> Well, CFS is probably a condition that can have a number of different etiologies (like other phenomenologically-defined disorders). But I'd imagine that interictal symptoms could include chronic fatigue.
>
> > In my case both nature and "nurture," family dopaminergic vulnerability, probably that genetric glitch discovered on the dopamine receptor site, lots of ADD and genius. . .hard to separate from DDT exposures in childhood, later pesticide exposures which triggered full-scale CFS and other environmental factors.
>
> That's interesting. How old are you (if it's not too personal :-) ), and how did you come to be exposed to pesticides to an extent that it could cause serious sequelae?Lived in the country.
> Does epilepsy run in your family? What about other, possibly related conditions? (My family history is loaded not only with depression, but also other conditions which might be related, notably migraine and cardiovascular disease; I'm interested in the common predisposing factors.)
>Loaded with conditions. . .this is so long, we gotta take this offlist!
Especially the part about NPDs and meds. . my two favorite subjects. Not that we'll ever find out what works for the disorder, *the* subset Least Likely To Seek Help. LOL.
Zo
Posted by Elizabeth on July 6, 2001, at 22:48:41
In reply to Re: no more silly arguments :-) - long! » Elizabeth, posted by Zo on July 6, 2001, at 0:41:25
> > Say, is any of your writing on the web? (Besides psycho-babble posts, of course < g >) If so, I'd love to read it.
> >
> Know any web designers? Am trying to put a site up.I know a lot of people who are savvy with the web (I did my undergrad work at MIT), but none who're looking for work of that sort at the moment. I will let you know if I come across anyone who'd be interested, though.
> > how did you come to be exposed to pesticides to an extent that it could cause serious sequelae?
>
> Lived in the country.Farm area?
> > Does epilepsy run in your family? What about other, possibly related conditions?
>
> Loaded with conditions. . .this is so long, we gotta take this offlist!Sure. I'm cybersquid_400@yahoo.com, if you'd like to email.
> Especially the part about NPDs and meds. . my two favorite subjects. Not that we'll ever find out what works for the disorder, *the* subset Least Likely To Seek Help. LOL.
Less likely than antisocials, you think?
-elizabeth
Posted by Zo on July 6, 2001, at 23:29:33
In reply to Re: no more silly arguments :-) » Zo, posted by Elizabeth on July 6, 2001, at 22:48:41
> Farm area?
Next to heavily-sprayed apple orchard.> > NPDs and meds. . my two favorite subjects. Not > >that we'll ever find out what works for the >disorder, *the* subset Least Likely To Seek Help. LOL.
>
> Less likely than antisocials, you think?
>
> -elizabethI would think so, yes, because of the Grandiosity as primary defense structure...rather rules out *needing* any help, categorically. Also, they cover *very* well.
Just happened across this:
http://www.mhc.com/Algorithms/Depression/personal.htm#Narcissistic
There has been increased awareness of and interest in this personality disorder since Kohut proposed the usefulness of specific new techniques of psychotherapy. Formal studies actually show a low rate of presence of narcissistic personality disorder in depressed patients, and a relatively higher rate in successfully remitted depressed patients.1 However, Kohut2 and an older literature describe a chronic dysthymia in narcissistic patients that reflects their pervasive lack of pleasure in life, lack of humor, lack of empathy for others, emptiness, hypochondriasis, but strong mood-responsiveness to admiration. Experience in clinical consultation reveals there are many such patients who fail adequate initial pharmacotherapy and that they are over-represented among persistently depressed, non-melancholic patients.3
A review of the literature reveals no clues as to whether continued sequential trials of medication will be helpful for such patients, but local experience is that they remain treatment-resistant to medication. One patient responded to bupropion. They do seem to gradually respond to long term psychotherapy if they remain committed to it.
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