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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 44. Go back in thread:
Posted by Fred Potter on April 9, 2001, at 16:47:11
In reply to Re: Naltrexone, posted by dougb on April 9, 2001, at 12:28:42
Well said Doug. So long as the euphoria is socially responsible I'm all in favour of it. Sometimes even if it isn't. Sort of like a time out from our suffering. Don't we deserve it occasionally?
Posted by KarenB on April 9, 2001, at 18:56:38
In reply to Re: Naltrexone » dougb, posted by Fred Potter on April 9, 2001, at 16:47:11
> Well said Doug. So long as the euphoria is socially responsible I'm all in favour of it. Sometimes even if it isn't. Sort of like a time out from our suffering. Don't we deserve it occasionally?
Hi Guys,
I reread my post and it sounds as if I too am opposed to euphoria. I am not. As a matter of fact, my dream is to live in a state of controlled, euphoric hypomania. Wouldn't that be nice?
What I am opposed to, because I think it is dangerous, is addiction - the type that demands you take more and more to get to the same euphoric state and then starts stealing away any control you do have. You can never get back that initial, pleasant euphoria you first experienced. You then find yourself using several different docs to get what you need, because the amount you need would raise some eyebrows. Can you tell I've been there? Opiates are know for this kind of mess.
A time out from suffering is not a bad thing...as long as in staying there you don't get hurt.
Karen
Posted by Lisa Simpson on April 10, 2001, at 10:10:02
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by Elizabeth on April 5, 2001, at 7:05:43
By the way, has anyone who has been on codeine noticed a side effect of decreasing sexual arousal?
Lisa
Posted by dougb on April 10, 2001, at 13:22:40
In reply to Re: Euphoria-Doug and Fred, posted by KarenB on April 9, 2001, at 18:56:38
> my dream is to live in a state of controlled, euphoric hypomania. Wouldn't that be nice?INHO No:
If you were Hypomanic/Euphoric all the time, what would be the point of reference?
Euphoria is only relative to our 'usual state'. As such it is a moving target, the pursuit of which requires ever increasing expenditure of time/money/effort to the point of personal/family/work and social irresphonsibility.
My personal experience of the Hell of Addiction on the mental level was:
The realization of the harm i was causing others and the failure to adequately fulfill my resphonsibilities - due - to my self-centered pursuit of euphoria.
The Hell of Depression is a very similar condition:
The awareness of the harm/inconvenience/burden that my condition places on all of those around me.
Hell.Addict....Major Dep.........Normal......Euphoric..?
|< -|-----|----------|----------------|-------------|-----| >|Doug
Posted by KarenB on April 10, 2001, at 15:54:52
In reply to Re: Euphoria-Doug and Fred » KarenB, posted by dougb on April 10, 2001, at 13:22:40
>
> > my dream is to live in a state of controlled, euphoric hypomania. Wouldn't that be nice?
>
> INHO No:
>
> If you were Hypomanic/Euphoric all the time, what would be the point of reference?Hi Doug,
Maybe I wasn't clear enough - "dream" to me implies something generally and distantly unattainable but desired. This is not my sense of reality. I am aware that an active pursuit of euphoria is detrimental to one's health and relationships to those around us. I know, firsthand, the results of such a lifestyle. It was sort of a backhanded joke and I guess it didn't come across quite that way.
Karen
Posted by missliz on April 10, 2001, at 23:47:18
In reply to Re: Euphoria-Doug and Fred, posted by KarenB on April 9, 2001, at 18:56:38
> > Well said Doug. So long as the euphoria is socially responsible I'm all in favour of it. Sometimes even if it isn't. Sort of like a time out from our suffering. Don't we deserve it occasionally?
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> I reread my post and it sounds as if I too am opposed to euphoria. I am not. As a matter of fact, my dream is to live in a state of controlled, euphoric hypomania. Wouldn't that be nice?
>
> What I am opposed to, because I think it is dangerous, is addiction - the type that demands you take more and more to get to the same euphoric state and then starts stealing away any control you do have. You can never get back that initial, pleasant euphoria you first experienced. You then find yourself using several different docs to get what you need, because the amount you need would raise some eyebrows. Can you tell I've been there? Opiates are know for this kind of mess.
>
> A time out from suffering is not a bad thing...as long as in staying there you don't get hurt.
>
> KarenEuphoria is great- but why drug induced euphoria when it only leads to long term disaster? Opiates are selfish drugs whose users just live for the next dose then sit in the corner and nod. This isn't an anti depressent effect, just another facet of illness. You want euphoria?
Run. Ride your bike. Surf. Climb a mountain, then run down the trails hollering. Be a sappy Nike ad 'cause like I said in my earlier post those who sweat have heads full of endorphins and those who go on adventures have something interesting to talk about. Addicts are bores.
If you opiate desperate types had done your research a little more thoroughly you'd find that these drugs just make depression worse in the long run. They play hell with brain chemistry and further destabilize it, making a bigger and bigger mess in there.
I suspect that you all really need psychotherapy to find out why you need to anesthetize yourselves. Opiates aren't about feeling better. They're about feeling nothing at all.
You want euphoria? Clean up, straighten out, find out what sober sex is. Thats euphoric.
Posted by Fred Potter on April 11, 2001, at 0:17:51
In reply to Re: Naltrexone » dougb, posted by Fred Potter on April 9, 2001, at 16:47:11
Can I clear up some misunderstanding? I don't think any of us on this thread are advocating the use of morphine-like drugs. Naltrexone, a neutral feeling drug, made me feel euphoric by comparison to depression when my SSRI had pooped out. But euphoria by running over mountains yes! Mind you this can get self-centred when carried to extremes. That's why I said, "socially responsible". A beer with friends is also the kind of social euphoria I mean, although Naltrexone won't let you enjoy it of course.
Posted by Elizabeth on April 11, 2001, at 9:47:24
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by Lisa Simpson on April 10, 2001, at 10:10:02
> By the way, has anyone who has been on codeine noticed a side effect of decreasing sexual arousal?
I have only taken codeine a couple of times (after dental procedures and when I broke my ankle) but morphine has similar effects. A small percentage of codeine is metabolised into morphine, and this is probably the only reason it has much of an effect at all -- just taking morphine produces fewer side effects). Buprenorphine and morphine both improve my sexual functioning. Some people find that opiates make them apathetic, so they have less desire and are less easily aroused. If you experience apathy on an opiate, this suggests to me that it isn't a good antidepressant for you.
Posted by dougb on April 11, 2001, at 12:13:53
In reply to Re: Euphoria » dougb, posted by KarenB on April 10, 2001, at 15:54:52
Karen:
I understand, and think i did before your clarification.
Just used your post to make a point to any who may be following the thread.
If you get on a soapbox and start yelling that Opiates are good for some peoples depression, i think every little point should be clear don't you?
> >
> > > my dream is to live in a state of controlled, euphoric hypomania. Wouldn't that be nice?
> >
> > INHO No:
> >
> > If you were Hypomanic/Euphoric all the time, what would be the point of reference?
>
> Hi Doug,
>
> Maybe I wasn't clear enough - "dream" to me implies something generally and distantly unattainable but desired. This is not my sense of reality. I am aware that an active pursuit of euphoria is detrimental to one's health and relationships to those around us. I know, firsthand, the results of such a lifestyle. It was sort of a backhanded joke and I guess it didn't come across quite that way.
>
> Karen
Posted by dougb on April 11, 2001, at 15:09:55
In reply to Re: Naltrexone » dougb, posted by Fred Potter on April 9, 2001, at 16:47:11
> Well said Doug. So long as the euphoria is socially responsible I'm all in favour of it. Sometimes even if it isn't. Sort of like a time out from our suffering. Don't we deserve it occasionally?
Thanks, Fred
That was a rhetorical question, right?
I really think that they are intentionally leaving out the 'feel-good' from AD's, have no idea why.
Posted by missliz on April 12, 2001, at 0:46:23
In reply to Re: Naltrexone, posted by Fred Potter on April 11, 2001, at 0:17:51
> Can I clear up some misunderstanding? I don't think any of us on this thread are advocating the use of morphine-like drugs. Naltrexone, a neutral feeling drug, made me feel euphoric by comparison to depression when my SSRI had pooped out. But euphoria by running over mountains yes! Mind you this can get self-centred when carried to extremes. That's why I said, "socially responsible". A beer with friends is also the kind of social euphoria I mean, although Naltrexone won't let you enjoy it of course.
From what I've read in this thread, some people think painkillers are legitimate treatment for mental illness and doctors are ignorant and small minded not to supply them on demand. Dig back and you'll see what I'm referring too. There's a person who seems obsessed with opiate drugs in a way that sounds like a developing junkie to me.
This is disturbing, mostly because when someone so misguided uses a legitimate illness like depression to try and justify her doping it just drags the rest of us down. Psychiatric illness is heavily stigmatized and sufferers are heavily discriminated against as it is. To have a bunch of druggies trying to legitimize their bad habits by trumping up some BS about painkillers and depression just pisses me off.
I've danced with this devil for well over twenty years and seen alot of awful things. Too many of the hospitals are horrible places, outpatient services are pathetic to nonexistant for most of the mentally ill population and insurance coverage for psychiatric services keeps getting cut and cut where it still exists. For all the people who take their meds and work their buts off to get better this pill popping crap is a giant slap in the face. The general population already confuses the depressed and the retarded; should I have to bear the stigma of the dope fiend so little susie can rationalize her problem as depressive illness? I think not.
Posted by Lisa Simpson on April 12, 2001, at 11:11:22
In reply to Re: Naltrexone, posted by missliz on April 12, 2001, at 0:46:23
Hi Elizabeth - thank you for your reply. Actually I don't take codeine for depression, I was curious whether anyone used it as such. Your information is very useful, thanks again.
Missliz, oh boy, why are you so cross? Please, do try to calm down. Why should you think that someone who has problems with drugs is worth less than someone who has depressive problems? It's still a problem, whether it's depression, addiction, alcoholism or whatever - right? People have a right to support no matter what the problem is. We need to be understanding with people with problems that disrupt their lives and make them unhappy, no matter what form they take. We don't know the history of anyone here, so we can't criticise them for their habits or their problems.
Smile!
Lisa
Posted by KarenB on April 12, 2001, at 11:21:08
In reply to Re: Euphoria » KarenB, posted by dougb on April 11, 2001, at 12:13:53
> If you get on a soapbox and start yelling that Opiates are good for some peoples depression, i think every little point should be clear don't you?
Doug,
Just another clarification: I never posted that opiates are a viable treatment for depression. That was somebody else - not me. Did you think I said that or were you referring to the thread in general?
Karen
Posted by dougb on April 12, 2001, at 14:21:59
In reply to Re: Euphoria » dougb, posted by KarenB on April 12, 2001, at 11:21:08
Karen
> Just another clarification: I never posted that opiates are a viable treatment for depression. That was somebody else
Sorry Karen, was actually mocking myself ;-)
That somebody was me, it IS hard to tell sometimes when your correspondent is trying to be funny...
Posted by dougb on April 12, 2001, at 14:26:15
In reply to Codeine - to Elizabeth Missliz, posted by Lisa Simpson on April 12, 2001, at 11:11:22
You sound like a perceptive and understanding person.
As an Aussie would say: 'Good on-ya' (or something like that)
Posted by dougb on April 12, 2001, at 15:13:45
In reply to Re: Naltrexone, posted by missliz on April 12, 2001, at 0:46:23
>
There's a person who seems obsessed with opiate drugs in a way that sounds like a developing junkie to me.
Who Me?
Ma'am:After reading your criticism, my first inclination was to run for cover, but that won't do so will try to answer your post and remain civil.
Having said that, all further responses should:
1st) be considered as an attempt (however feeble ethat might be) at humor, failing that test,
2nd) as defense of my admittidly controversial thoughts.
> This is disturbing, mostly because when someone so misguided
Well this sounds like a presumption of stupidity, or a deliberate provocation
>
uses a legitimate illness like depression to try and justify her doping
It sounds like you are accusing me of being a liar.>
Psychiatric illness is heavily stigmatized and sufferers are heavily discriminated against as it is.
Well, we agree on something>
To have a bunch of druggies trying to legitimize their bad habits
What bad habits, I am just trying to get my life back, like everyone else here>
Trmping up some BS about painkillers and depression just pisses me off.
This sounds like you think that I am lying, just to 'get high'> I've danced with this devil for well over twenty years and seen alot of awful things.
I am not sure what devil you may be referring to here, i presume depression>
Too many of the hospitals are horrible places, outpatient services are pathetic to nonexistant for most of the mentally ill population and insurance coverage for psychiatric services keeps getting cut and cut where it still exists.
This of course is not My Fault.>
For all the people who take their meds and work their buts off to get better this pill popping crap is a giant slap in the face.
If it really works for some of us, why discriminate between pills, we ALL take pills?>
The general population already confuses the depressed and the retarded; should I have to bear the stigma of the dope fiend
Those ewho are still confusing the 2 may be a little 'special' themselves
>
so little susie
That would be little Dougie>
can rationalize her problem as depressive illness? I think not.
There has been no rationalization here, I have basically laid my Soul bare here for all to see. If what I have experienced does not fit in with the way you see the world, there is no reason to get worked up about it.Ultimately, it is my life to navigate the best way I see fit. I have only come here to share and get a second opinion.
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 12, 2001, at 19:51:48
In reply to Re: Naltrexone, posted by missliz on April 12, 2001, at 0:46:23
> There's a person who seems obsessed with opiate drugs in a way that sounds like a developing junkie to me.
> when someone so misguided uses a legitimate illness like depression to try and justify her doping it just drags the rest of us down.
> should I have to bear the stigma of the dope fiend so little susie can rationalize her problem as depressive illness?Please be civil even -- or especially -- if you disagree. Otherwise, I'll need to try to block you from posting. Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups, if any, regarding this should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by judy1 on April 13, 2001, at 18:11:09
In reply to Re: no biggie » missliz, posted by dougb on April 13, 2001, at 15:48:36
Hi Doug,
Reading your description of how you had to take several doses of your hydrocodone to finish a project reminded me of how my pain meds allowed me to function after my car accident. I had previously mentioned being on ms contin and seeing a pain doc, but that all came about after completely shattering both knee caps and a severe head and chest injury. Until I saw the pain doc, I couldn't function as a Mom and take care of my house and animals (including a horse) never mind work. My ortho doc would only give me hydrocodone and celebrex (which caused asthma) and against his, my internist and my shrink's advice I went to the pain doc. Once he had started me on ms contin and adjusted the dose for the tolerance that grew I was able to completely take care of my responsibilities. After 2 surgeries and physical therapy, I gradually tapered down after a year. During that year, my mood was the best it had ever been and my panic attacks non-existant. And considering the stress I was under- that's quite remarkable. Anyway you most certainly have nothing to feel guilty about just as I didn't. I hope this regimen continues to benefit you. take care, judy
Posted by Lisa Simpson on April 14, 2001, at 10:09:51
In reply to Re: Codeine - Thank you Lisa » Lisa Simpson, posted by dougb on April 12, 2001, at 14:26:15
> You sound like a perceptive and understanding person.
>
Hi Doug - thanks for your comment! That made me feel good. Actually, your reply to "you know who" made me smile, because you obviously thought her post was aimed at you... and I was equally convinced that it was aimed at me!! Anyhow, not to worry. Tell me a little about yourself, I'd be interested to know.Lisa
Posted by dougb on April 14, 2001, at 12:39:02
In reply to Re: Codeine - Thank you Lisa, posted by Lisa Simpson on April 14, 2001, at 10:09:51
Lisa:
> Hi Doug - thanks for your comment! That made me feel good. Actually, your reply to "you know who" made me smile
---"Happiness runs in a circular motion", don't you think? Me thinks that a healthy sense of humor, and trying not to take yourself too seriously, make for happier inmates.It made me feel good to here that someone like you was pleased with my post. and I am wondering, sitting here, if you will get a positive feeling from MY reply. maybe we've got the makings of a perpetual-motion-positive-energy-field-thingy started here? ;-))
>Tell me a little about yourself, I'd be nterested to know.
---Am going to take 'little' as the operative word here. Am afraid that after 47 yrs of experiences, you would run out of interest a long time before i ran out of stories.In 'my last life' was a self-employed computer networking specialst for about 15 yrs.
Previous to that was the principal in a small investor backed mining operation in South America. And previous to that, you name it, i've done it.
5 Wonderful children, wife of 25 years.
27 yrs practicing Tantric meditation, 98.345% vegetarian.
Love people, and have very dry sense of humor (that means if what i say sounds outrageous, that was my idea of something funny.
Also, never like to use a plain simple word if i can find a $10 word to take it's place.
Actually i love language, words and their origens, and the subtle nuances of expression that vocabulary facilitates.
Okay, Lisa, now it's your turn...
Doug
Posted by Lisa Simpson on April 14, 2001, at 14:37:36
In reply to Re: Codeine - Thank you Lisa, posted by dougb on April 14, 2001, at 12:39:02
Oh Doug, you sound great! And so like me! I've been married for 25 years (last year), and I was a PC/network analyst for over 15 years. In my last PC related job, I worked for Laura Ashley supporting 200 PCs running Windows 98 under a Novell network. I'm now working with a small, specialist recruitment agency, where I've been for three and a half years. I'm working with someone I knew a very long time ago - my boss is great. I really enjoy my job. I'm very lucky - I do the times I want, and take time off when I want. It's great.
I have one eight year old daughter, who is beautiful and much-loved. I also have three Siamese cats.
Um, I will stop now, because I've got to put my daughter to bed. Speak with you later!
Best wishes
Lisa
Posted by ShelliR on April 14, 2001, at 15:11:14
In reply to Re: Codeine - Thank you Lisa, posted by Lisa Simpson on April 14, 2001, at 10:09:51
Lisa. And I thought (and still think) it was aimed at me; I've been humming the Simon & Garfunkle song "Wake up Little Suzie" for a few days now.
However, I thought I'm not touching this with a ten foot pool; if Doug wants to take this on, well, okay--he can be little susie. Fine with me!
Shelli
Posted by dougb on April 15, 2001, at 11:54:54
In reply to Re: no biggie » dougb, posted by judy1 on April 13, 2001, at 18:11:09
Judy:
Thanks for post, it was interesting that 3 out of 4 health care providers were reluctant to get you the medicine you needed.Also interesting was how after 1 yr on a lot heavier opiate and at an elavated dosage (200 mg/day) that you were weaned off of it without too much trouble. Your experience is the norm, it is the rare exception that gets 'addicted' in the legitimate use of these substances.
The following link gives a brief outline of a major govmnt study opiate use, here is a small quote from that page:
"Of 24,000 patients studied, only 7 could be identified who got into trouble with drugs as a result of medical administration." (of theraputic opiate use)
The conclusions of this discussion are clear:(a) dependence and addiction are not equivalent to each other;
(b) patients who become dependent on opioids during the course of medical therapy rarely become addicted to those drugs; and
(c)in managing pain with opioids, there is little need to fear addiction. Tolerance to opioids is rarely a problem because it is possible to continuously increase the dose. Depedence is only a concern when prescribing drugs with antagonist properties and in managing withdrawal."
http://www.widomaker.com/~skipb/Scheme.html
Doug
Posted by dougb on April 15, 2001, at 12:34:22
In reply to To Doug, posted by Lisa Simpson on April 14, 2001, at 14:37:36
Lisa:
It souunds like things are going your way, thats great.
How long is your average assignment?
Doug
Posted by dougb on April 15, 2001, at 12:38:38
In reply to Re: Codeine - Thank you Lisa, posted by ShelliR on April 14, 2001, at 15:11:14
> if Doug wants to take this on, well, okay--he can be little susie. Fine with me!
> ShelliI feel a mid-life Trans-gender crisis comming on :-)
This is the end of the thread.
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