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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by J. Lester on December 9, 2000, at 14:24:08
Hello,that's me again. Glad I've found this forum, clean and
trolls free so I can share my feelings and expectations
here freely.
Olmifon affects liver enzymes, it is recommended for
no more than 3 months, right ? How serious is the
problem, my I ignore it ? What's gonna happen ?
Especially for a large quantity - 4 pills a day ? I am
major depressed for the last 10 years, and before these
10 years I was always a dysthimic, no emotions, no drive,
no willingness to live. I am treatment-resistant, and
Olmifon is the first medication to help me so well
particularly for motivation. It makes me a different
person able to respond to stimuli, people at work
wonder what happened to this guy, he talks and seems to
be really interested in what he's doing. Is he on drugs
now ? Yes, I am, but on Olmifon only. In fact, I am really
scared if my monthly pack will not reach me. I will turn
back into a complete vegetable for the whole month ...Thanks a lot,
John Lester
Posted by Maniz on December 9, 2000, at 15:03:21
In reply to Olmifon questions again : liver enzymes, posted by J. Lester on December 9, 2000, at 14:24:08
Hi,
Modafinil (Provigil) is supposed to be like Adrafinil but without the liver problems. Although, JohnL posted here (search for his posts)that Adrafinil works better than Modafinil.
The mayor side effect of Modafinil seems to be on your pockets. < joke >I think if you are under a doctor care you can have the liver tests and be advised to discontinue Adrafinil if necessary. I do not know if it can cause a permanent damage. I think eleveted liver enzimes does not necessarily means tissue damage, but I am no doctor.
I was to order Adrafinil for the first but the source I know does not reply.
Sure you have tried other drugs that have an effect on NA like wellbutrin right? (was the class name RIMAOAs?).
Regarding treatment resistant depression, I have read some success stories using SAM-e. Have you tried it?. Of course it is a much milder substance, but effcetive too and has some "good" side effects. SAM-e is used to treat liver problems. Must be taken on an empty stomach and in whole pill because it is enteric coated.
Sam-e is a mthylating agent and it is suggested to use together with folate and B6 (and maybe TMG to incerease effect) so not to elevate homocistein. Again, mayor problem is price. Sad, because from experience I think it works.
At www.consumerlabs.com there is a list of good brands.Good luck.
>
> Hello,
>
> that's me again. Glad I've found this forum, clean and
> trolls free so I can share my feelings and expectations
> here freely.
> Olmifon affects liver enzymes, it is recommended for
> no more than 3 months, right ? How serious is the
> problem, my I ignore it ? What's gonna happen ?
> Especially for a large quantity - 4 pills a day ? I am
> major depressed for the last 10 years, and before these
> 10 years I was always a dysthimic, no emotions, no drive,
> no willingness to live. I am treatment-resistant, and
> Olmifon is the first medication to help me so well
> particularly for motivation. It makes me a different
> person able to respond to stimuli, people at work
> wonder what happened to this guy, he talks and seems to
> be really interested in what he's doing. Is he on drugs
> now ? Yes, I am, but on Olmifon only. In fact, I am really
> scared if my monthly pack will not reach me. I will turn
> back into a complete vegetable for the whole month ...
>
> Thanks a lot,
> John Lester
Posted by J. Lester on December 9, 2000, at 17:40:03
In reply to SAM-e?mifon questions again : liver enzymes, posted by Maniz on December 9, 2000, at 15:03:21
Hello :
> Modafinil (Provigil) is supposed to be like Adrafinil but without the liver problems. Although, JohnL posted here (search for
> his posts)that Adrafinil works better than Modafinil.
> The mayor side effect of Modafinil seems to be on your pockets. < joke >> I think if you are under a doctor care you can have the liver tests and be advised to discontinue Adrafinil if necessary. I do not
> know if it can cause a permanent damage. I think eleveted liver enzimes does not necessarily means tissue damage, but I am no
> doctor.Well, I am self-medicated with Olmifon. If I only knew which enzymes are affected ... Most serious
info on Olmifon is probably in French.> Sure you have tried other drugs that have an effect on NA like wellbutrin right? (was the class name RIMAOAs?).
Yes, wellbutrin does not work for me, TCAs are best.
> Regarding treatment resistant depression, I have read some success stories using SAM-e. Have you tried it?. Of course it is a
> much milder substance, but effcetive too and has some "good" side effects. SAM-e is used to treat liver problems. Must be
> taken on an empty stomach and in whole pill because it is enteric coated.> Sam-e is a mthylating agent and it is suggested to use together with folate and B6 (and maybe TMG to incerease effect) so not
> to elevate homocistein. Again, mayor problem is price. Sad, because from experience I think it works.
> At www.consumerlabs.com there is a list of good brands.Yes, SAMe is expensive, not tried yet. Supplements I took were St.Johns Wort, DMAE, 5HTP, phenylalanine, tyrosine.
I stick with L-tyrosine - a 'megadose' of 8 - 10 gram in morning. It is supposed to increase
NA + dopamine, and to a lesser degree serotonin (?). It works fine for me as to bringing my mental pain
to the level of zero emotions, no positives, no negatives, just indifference, melancholy,
but not higher ..., sadness remains whatever dose I take. Seems like only serotonin is affected.J.L.
Posted by Maniz on December 9, 2000, at 17:55:39
In reply to Re: Olmifon questions again : liver enzymes, posted by J. Lester on December 9, 2000, at 17:40:03
>
> Well, I am self-medicated with Olmifon. If I only knew which enzymes are affected ... Most serious
> info on Olmifon is probably in French.See this forum, search, there is a translation posted by JohnL
See here, it ie very complete and it has what you want http://lmnta.ru.orebro.se/~lester/nootropics/modafinil.adrafinil.structure.html
>>
> Yes, wellbutrin does not work for me, TCAs are best.What is TCA?
>
> Yes, SAMe is expensive, not tried yet. Supplements I took were St.Johns Wort,
I am taking SJW with not very good results if any...
>DMAE,
for some it is excellent. for me a bit jittering. DMAE elevate MOA at some doses.
5HTP, phenylalanine, tyrosine.
> I stick with L-tyrosine - a 'megadose' of 8 - 10 gram in morning. It is supposed to increase
> NA + dopamine, and to a lesser degree serotonin (?).right but I have read some warnings about continued high dose use.
Posted by J. Lester on December 9, 2000, at 21:08:00
In reply to Re: Olmifon questions again : liver enzymes » J. Lester, posted by Maniz on December 9, 2000, at 17:55:39
> > Well, I am self-medicated with Olmifon. If I only knew which enzymes are affected ... Most serious
> > info on Olmifon is probably in French.
>
> See this forum, search, there is a translation posted by JohnL
>
> See here, it ie very complete and it has what you want http://lmnta.ru.orebro.se/~lester/nootropics/modafinil.adrafinil.structure.htmlThanks a lot for the link, Maniz, good info there.
> > Yes, wellbutrin does not work for me, TCAs are best.
>
> What is TCA?Good old tricyclics : Elavil, Vivactil, Norpramin, Pamelor, Anafranil.
> > Yes, SAMe is expensive, not tried yet. Supplements I took were St.Johns Wort,
>
> I am taking SJW with not very good results if any...
>
> >DMAE,> for some it is excellent. for me a bit jittering.
Same for me.
> DMAE elevate MOA at some doses.
> 5HTP, phenylalanine, tyrosine.
> > I stick with L-tyrosine - a 'megadose' of 8 - 10 gram in morning. It is supposed to increase
> > NA + dopamine, and to a lesser degree serotonin (?).
>
> right but I have read some warnings about continued high dose use.What exactly ? I read only about skin cancer.
J.L.
Posted by JohnL on December 10, 2000, at 4:59:48
In reply to Olmifon questions again : liver enzymes, posted by J. Lester on December 9, 2000, at 14:24:08
Hello John,
For liver protection and health, consider supplements of the herb Milk Thistle and also SAMe. Take the daily dose of Milk Thistle extract stated on the bottle, and one 200mg tab of SAMe per day, or one every other day. Both of these are very protective and rejuvenating for the liver.
Adrafinil helps me in an amazing way, similar to what you described. I'm glad to hear someone else is doing real well with it. For me, dozens of other medicines tried over many years didn't come anywhere close to working as well. I order a new supply when my current supply is only enough to last one month. Like you, I definitely would not want to go without!
You might want to get a liver test once every six months just to be on the safe side. Continuous use of Milk Thistle and SAMe should help keep everything normal. If your tests indicate elevated enzymes, you might have to lower your dose for a while so they can return to normal. Again though, I think the supplements I mentioned will be good insurance in preventing any problems.
I wish Adrafinil had some serious funding behind it. I could easily envision it taking over Prozac's popularity.
John
Posted by J. Lester on December 10, 2000, at 13:40:10
In reply to Re: Olmifon questions again : liver enzymes, posted by JohnL on December 10, 2000, at 4:59:48
Thanks for info, John.
One more question, you wrote that Adrafinil eventually became less
effective for you. I suspect that's quite normal since Adrafinil seems
to me more a stimulant rather than a conventional antidepressant. How
quickly did you develop resistance ? Did you increase your dosage then ?Thanks a lot,
J.L.> Hello John,
>
> For liver protection and health, consider supplements of the herb Milk Thistle and also SAMe. Take the daily dose of Milk Thistle extract stated on the bottle, and one 200mg tab of SAMe per day, or one every other day. Both of these are very protective and rejuvenating for the liver.
>
> Adrafinil helps me in an amazing way, similar to what you described. I'm glad to hear someone else is doing real well with it. For me, dozens of other medicines tried over many years didn't come anywhere close to working as well. I order a new supply when my current supply is only enough to last one month. Like you, I definitely would not want to go without!
>
> You might want to get a liver test once every six months just to be on the safe side. Continuous use of Milk Thistle and SAMe should help keep everything normal. If your tests indicate elevated enzymes, you might have to lower your dose for a while so they can return to normal. Again though, I think the supplements I mentioned will be good insurance in preventing any problems.
>
> I wish Adrafinil had some serious funding behind it. I could easily envision it taking over Prozac's popularity.
> John
Posted by JohnL on December 10, 2000, at 15:36:25
In reply to Re: Olmifon : tolerance buildup, posted by J. Lester on December 10, 2000, at 13:40:10
> Thanks for info, John.
> One more question, you wrote that Adrafinil eventually became less
> effective for you. I suspect that's quite normal since Adrafinil seems
> to me more a stimulant rather than a conventional antidepressant. How
> quickly did you develop resistance ? Did you increase your dosage then ?
>
> Thanks a lot,
> J.L.No, must be some mistake. I never did develop a tolerance to Adrafinil. It has never become less effective. According to what I have read, this is what is normally expected. One way it differs from other stimulants is that it does not involve tolerance, resistance, dependence, or withdrawal.
I do remember it working real well almost immediately the first time I tried it, but then it faded after a few days. But then over a period of two weeks or so the initial good effects came back on their own. Since then I have been able to maintain the good effects with just one 300mg dose in the morning. Sometimes I go for a second dose at lunch, but not usually.
John
Posted by Maniz on December 10, 2000, at 17:09:30
In reply to Re: Olmifon : tolerance buildup, posted by J. Lester on December 10, 2000, at 13:40:10
Hi, sorry to mess in your question to JohnL
I am not sure about this info, but it seems inositol resesitizies receptors?
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~mecfs/general/goldstein_treatment.html
46. "Dopaminergic cocktail "of 1)Hydergine 2mg tid for 3 days, then add 2)Symmetrel 100 - 200 mg tid for 3 days, then add 3) deprenyl 5mg bid for 3 days, then, if necessary add 4) bupropion 100 mg tid (it takes 4 - 6 wks to work) Drug Tolerance-large doses of inositol (inositol poorly penetrates the blood-brain barrier) affects the sensitization of the alpha-1 receptor and can sometimes reverse tolerance to a previously helpful medication.
Case Report16 yr old, home bound for 2 years with CFS, too cognitively impaired toreceive home tutoring. She initially had excellent response to Zantac, naphazoline, nimodepine, oxytocin, and several antidepressants, but thebenefit was always short-lived. After taking one gram of inositol she felt considerably better and was encouraged to resume agents to which shehad developed tolerance. As long as she continued to take inositol 1 gmqid, these medications were again effective. She has returned to high school and will be graduating shortly.
BeatCfsAndFms.org
If the alpha-1 receptors are clogged (e.g. by a pesky heavy metal molecule), one would feel fatigued. The following things can clog NA alpha-1 receptors: antagonist drugs, lead, mercury, cadmium, sulfur-toxins, over 70,000 manmade chemicals, and several natural toxins
the person at hedweb.org mentions DHEA to wash drugs.
alsoPAGE URL:http://www.beatcfsandfms.org/html/BrainChem.html
Noradrenaline (NA) alpha-1 and alpha-2 receptors
With the noradrenaline (NA) neurotransmitter, for example, two of the receptors are called "alpha-1" and "alpha-2" (catcher with #1 on his shirt, and catcher with #2 on his shirt, each with their own special phone line). The Alfa-1-receptors stimulate the conversion of liver molecules to sugar molecules (glucogenolysis), resulting in more glucose in the blood. Alpha-1 also stimulates the consumption of oxygen (O2) by the cells and stimulates the conversion of fatty acid in blood to energy. All of these alpha-1 items result in more energy for the person. If the alpha-1 receptors are clogged (e.g. by a pesky heavy metal molecule), one would feel fatigued. The following things can clog NA alpha-1 receptors: antagonist drugs, lead, mercury, cadmium, sulfur-toxins, over 70,000 manmade chemicals, and several natural toxins. To see examples of studies on noradrenaline receptors, please click here.Noradrenaline Agonists
Provigil (Modafinil = Modiodal) is an example of an NA-Agonists that is FDA approved. It stimulates the noradrenaline alpha-1 receptor, and subsequently increases glucose (sugar) in blood (due to increase glucogenolysis) and increases oxygen to cells, which results in more biochemical energy (i.e. less fatigue). Several NA-Agonists have been used extensively in Europe, including Ordinal Forte, and Adrafinil (Omifon) and Modafinil. To learn more about Provigil, click here. The NA-Agonists tend to not be habit forming, unlike some of the serotonin Agonists.hope the last sentence is true:-)
> Thanks for info, John.
> One more question, you wrote that Adrafinil eventually became less
> effective for you. I suspect that's quite normal since Adrafinil seems
> to me more a stimulant rather than a conventional antidepressant. How
> quickly did you develop resistance ? Did you increase your dosage then ?
>
> Thanks a lot,
> J.L.
>
> > Hello John,
> >
> > For liver protection and health, consider supplements of the herb Milk Thistle and also SAMe. Take the daily dose of Milk Thistle extract stated on the bottle, and one 200mg tab of SAMe per day, or one every other day. Both of these are very protective and rejuvenating for the liver.
> >
> > Adrafinil helps me in an amazing way, similar to what you described. I'm glad to hear someone else is doing real well with it. For me, dozens of other medicines tried over many years didn't come anywhere close to working as well. I order a new supply when my current supply is only enough to last one month. Like you, I definitely would not want to go without!
> >
> > You might want to get a liver test once every six months just to be on the safe side. Continuous use of Milk Thistle and SAMe should help keep everything normal. If your tests indicate elevated enzymes, you might have to lower your dose for a while so they can return to normal. Again though, I think the supplements I mentioned will be good insurance in preventing any problems.
> >
> > I wish Adrafinil had some serious funding behind it. I could easily envision it taking over Prozac's popularity.
> > John
Posted by J. Lester on December 12, 2000, at 17:33:56
In reply to Re: Olmifon : tolerance buildup, posted by Maniz on December 10, 2000, at 17:09:30
> Hi, sorry to mess in your question to JohnL
> I am not sure about this info, but it seems inositol resesitizies receptors ?
> http://home.vicnet.net.au/~mecfs/general/goldstein_treatment.htmlGood info, thanks. The only problem where to get those mighty Napthazoline drops :)
I found this most interesting :
21. Glycine powder 0. 4 Gm/kg/day in juice or Cycloserine 15 - 50 mg od
(available otc in USA- read potential risks and precautions before prescribing-J. S.)
Significantly reduces the negative symptoms in schizophrenia.I want to give it a try ASAP.
> the person at hedweb.org mentions DHEA to wash drugs.
I did DHEA for some time. All I got was a terrible acne ... DHEA is related to male sex hormone.
> Provigil (Modafinil = Modiodal) is an example of an NA-Agonists that is FDA approved. >
Hmm .. I thought Modafinil is not approved yet ...
J.L.
Posted by Maniz on December 12, 2000, at 19:11:58
In reply to Re: Olmifon : tolerance buildup, posted by J. Lester on December 12, 2000, at 17:33:56
Hi,
> > Hi, sorry to mess in your question to JohnL
> > I am not sure about this info, but it seems inositol resesitizies receptors ?
> > http://home.vicnet.net.au/~mecfs/general/goldstein_treatment.html
>
> Good info, thanks.welcome
The only problem where to get those mighty Napthazoline drops :)
hehe everywhere! cheap stuff...search this forum. it is sold as an OTC nasal or eye descongestant (but can have rebound congestion side effects in continued use).
I am experimenting with it under the tongue. Sometimes it works. I do not know what could be the side effects. I know what gets from over the tonue passes directly to the heart and then via blood to the brain )ot that is what I understood). Could my oral mucosa get congested?. &:-|
But what do you need napazoline for if you are getting the "real" stuff in adrafinil. Napazholine is for topical use, so to say.
> I found this most interesting :
> 21. Glycine powder 0. 4 Gm/kg/day in juice or Cycloserine 15 - 50 mg od
> (available otc in USA- read potential risks and precautions before prescribing-J. S.)
> Significantly reduces the negative symptoms in schizophrenia.yes, I read many different doses. I think it is upt to 8grams/kg but please check.
See the thread "negative symptoms" here, especially AndrewB´s.
Also http://www.schizophrenia.com/newletter/newsl34.html
I wonder if TMG (trimethylglycine, cheap, sweet thing) can serve as a glycine donor. Also DMG (dimethylglycine, more costly) has some good reports for autistic and down child, it seems it makes them speak. Do any web search.But I am afraid we are playing with concepts...
>
> I want to give it a try ASAP.
>
> > the person at hedweb.org mentions DHEA to wash drugs.
>
> I did DHEA for some time. All I got was a terrible acne ... DHEA is related to male sex hormone.haha right, greasy scalp, hair lose....
>
> > Provigil (Modafinil = Modiodal) is an example of an NA-Agonists that is FDA approved. >
>
> Hmm .. I thought Modafinil is not approved yet ...wrong, I am afraid it is just the other way round.. Adrafinil is not aproved in USA, Modafinil IS...see their "nice" website http://www.provigil.com/home.htm
-you will find almost any drug by brandname.com, comercialism?? hehe-
Adrafinil´s lab is Lafon, www.lablafon.com, but nothing is there yet.
good luck
>
> J.L.
This is the end of the thread.
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