![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by yona on July 23, 2000, at 5:17:06
In reply to Re: An interesting take on depression and creativi, posted by dj on July 19, 2000, at 23:06:14
very interesting post. thanks much. i have had to negotiate my 'artist personality' without any understanding of it for most of my life. my BIG NEED to have time for introspection (and lots of it) has made me seem an 'impenatrable loner' to some. for me, stumbling upon a meaningless life at an early age induced a life long search for meaning. in some ways i can read that to mean that my 'creative personality' needs all those symphtoms of a depressed personality (ie: insominia, social anziety, dissassociation from 'regular life stuff', etc) in order to transform them into something meaningful.
..hope i didn't botch this post too bad for basically i have seen/experienced/tried to understand the link between creativity and depression for quite some time and still don't understand it much...
yona
Posted by dj on July 23, 2000, at 6:21:34
In reply to Re: An interesting take on depression and creativi, posted by yona on July 23, 2000, at 5:17:06
> ..hope i didn't botch this post too bad for basically i have seen/experienced/tried to understand the link between creativity and depression for quite some time and still don't understand it much...
> yonaIt's an ongoing challenge to wrap one's head around these concepts and to make sense of it all, meaningfully. Being creative is about being open to different possibilities and that is so important to moving beyond the malaise of depression and the challenge is to do something meaninful and impactful about the lacks we experience in our selves, lives and societies. It's all about making a difference of some sort, starting with ourselves, because we are canaries in this dysfunctional mine shaft of our societies and if we can make a difference that will make a differnce and can have a ripple effect.
Look at the posting that Harry B. made above...one small but important example of a man standing up for his rights and doing something about someone elses negligence which affected him negatively and still does... But he took a step forward and made a difference and will continue to step by step, as tough as it can be at times...
Back to the link between creativity and depression. Below are some of Richard O'Connor's musing on those connections from his website,
http://www.undoingdepression.com/excerpts.html.The following are excerpts from his very good and insightful book: Undoing Depression. If the following resonate with you check out his website for more and the book for even more...
"This is an unorthodox theory of change and recovery. I remember how for decades the analytic community debated whether true "structural change," as opposed to mere "symptom relief," could ever come from anything other than full-blown psychoanalysis. Now prominent scientists argue that recovery can come only from medication. These dogmatic positions are appeals to magic, not reason. I believe that people can make substantial changes in how they live their emotional lives, in their personalities, even in their brain chemistry, by replacing what depression has taught them with new, more adaptive, ways of thinking, feeling, relating, and acting. (page 5)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Depression is a disease of both the mind and of the body, the present and the past. In psychiatry now we have pitched battles going on between opposing camps, those who want to treat the brain and those who want to treat the mind. Both sides have powerful motives for pushing their own theories, some of which are idealistic and some of which are ignoble. Unfortunately, the patient is caught in the middle....Too much time and energy is spent arguing about whether depression is "caused" by early childhood experiences or neurochemical imbalances. Whatever the cause in the past, the patient and his family have to recover in the present. From the standpoint of effective treatment, pursuing these questions is not terribly relevant. Depression, like agoraphobia - another disorder that we now know how to treat - develops a "functional autonomy." Once begun, it continues even after the immediate cause is removed. The patient can have all the insight in the world, but the symptoms have a life of their own. (page 58)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------It is as if depressed people have a leak in the part of the self that contains a positive, nurturing self-image. Instead of having a good opinion of themselves - a reservoir of self-esteem - that can be sustained through the vicissitudes of life, they are overly dependent on love, respect and approval from significant people around them. (page 64)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Depressed people work harder at living than anyone else, although there is little payoff for our effort. But in the course of our hard work, we become very good at certain skills. We are like weight lifters who concentrate exclusively on upper body strength - massive muscles in the arms and trunk but little spindly legs underneath - easy to knock down. Depression permeates every aspect of ourselves, but we can free ourselves by consciously deciding to do things differently. People get good at depression - they overadapt and develop skills that, at best, just keep them going, and often make things worse. (page 72)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------People with depression have lost parts of their selves - a sense of resilience, a core of aspirations, a feeling of vitality - but they don't seek these missing parts directly. Instead, they put on a false front. . . .Those who love them can't understand why they are so difficult to be with and so unhappy. They have become experts at the skills of depression. They adapt certain psychological defense mechanisms to keep their needs out of consciousness. They know how to fool people, but they don't know how to get their own needs met. Many people with depression are experts at fooling people. They cover their own emotions. They act happy and successful. A career, a cause, an exercise regime, can become an obsession. "If I didn't work, then I'd have to think about how miserable I was and how I didn't have any friends and how no one loved me." (page 85)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Heart disease is a good analogy to major depression. Heart disease is "caused" by a complex of factors, including a genetic predisposition, emotional factors like how we handle stress, and habits like diet and exercise. You don't catch heart disease from an infection. You develop it gradually, over time, as plaque builds up in your arteries. Once you cross an invisible threshold marked by standards of blood pressure and cholesterol levels, you have heart disease, and you have it for the rest of your life. Yesterday you were normal, today you have heart disease. . . . Depression may be a similar threshold disease - genetic and biochemical factors may determine a different level of stress for each of us that, once reached, puts us over the edge into depression. (page 89)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------People with depression have a special talent for stuffing feelings. They can pretend to themselves and the world that they don't feel normal human emotions. They are very good at the defenses of repression, isolation, and intellectualization. They raise self-denial and self-sacrifice to the point where the self seems to disappear. (page 97)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------It takes a great deal of practice for the depressed person to learn how not to experience emotions, but we get very good at it. Women get especially good at not feeling anger and men get good at not feeling sadness. All of us stop experiencing much joy or happiness. It seems as if when you lose the ability to feel painful feelings, you also lose the ability to feel positive ones. We go through life numbed. (page 100)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Depressives assume that everyone else is happy most of the time, and that there is something wrong with us for not feeling the same way. . . . But the important implication for depressives is that happiness, instead of being a normal state of being that we don't experience because something is wrong with us, is something that must be cultivated. We need to practice feeling good. When we feel happy, we need to express those feelings to others. When we feel proud, we need to let ourselves sustain the emotion. (pages 116-17)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Most depressed people are great procrastinators. Procrastination means putting off for a later time what "should" be done now. The "should" may come from without, as with the teenager who dawdles over homework, or from within, as with me planting my garden. When it comes from without, it's easy to see the rebelliousness that procrastination expresses. When it comes from within, it's hard to see immediately what purpose procrastination serves - but it may serve many. Most procrastinators don't really know how work works. They assume that all really productive people are always in a positive, energetic frame of mind that lets them jump right into piles of paper and quickly do what needs to be done, only emerging when the task is accomplished. On the contrary, motivation follows action instead of the other way around. When we make ourselves face the task ahead of us, it usually isn't as bad as we think, and we begin to feel good about the progress we start making. Work comes first, and then comes the positive frame of mind. (page 129)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------One of the bitter ironies of depression is that depressed people crave connection with other people, while the nature of the disease makes it impossible for them to connect. (page 155)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Depressives must learn to listen to and take care of their bodies. Divorced from feelings, we tend to see ourselves divorced from our bodies as well. But our "true self" is not up in our head behind our eyes - it is our whole self, body, mind, and spirit. Ignoring body messages like pain, fatigue, and psychophysiological symptoms just sends us off for unnecessary medical care - depressives dramatically overuse physical medicine - and makes us feel more depressed because the medical care is ineffective. (page 183)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Creativity is the antithesis of depression. It is a way of saying that what I think and feel matters. . . . Depression is not just an illness, but a failure of creativity. We all face the problem of creating meaning in our lives. When we're depressed, we've lost hope for meaning. We all need to make a deliberate effort to make the self fertile; for the depressive, that effort is essential to life. (page 323)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Depression is a disease and a social problem, an illness to be treated professionally and a failure of adaptation that we must overcome through self-determination. These days, with managed care and medication so predominant, I'm concerned that professional help can't go far enough. Medication and brief treatment don't reduce the likelihood of future depression. The grim truth is that if you have one episode of major depression, you have only a one in two chance of avoiding another; if you have two, your chances of avoiding a third are only 30 percent; and if you have three episodes, your chances of avoiding future depression are only one in ten. But I believe very strongly that a self-directed program of recovery such as I am recommending can reduce those odds, and increase our satisfaction with our selves and our lives.
Living your life according to these principles will not be easy. It requires a total commitment to change. It means accepting that much of what you take for granted about yourself contributes to your depression, and that you, and no one else, have to devote a lot of time and energy to a continuous self-examination. Then it means that you will have to self-consciously practice new skills to replace your old habits of depression. Learning new skills is not easy, but it can be done. As you are doing this, you are likely to feel anxious and uncomfortable. Remember this is the way you feel when you try anything new; with enough practice the new skills become part of yourself. And you will begin to recover from depression. (page 307)"
Sante!dj
P.S. - Also check out Kay Redfield-Jameson on amazon.com. She wrote a book on the links between depression and creativity which you can find out more about there...
Posted by Nibor on July 23, 2000, at 11:41:36
In reply to What's to botch?, posted by dj on July 23, 2000, at 6:21:34
> Look at the posting that Harry B. made above...one small but important example of a man standing up for his rights and doing something about someone elses negligence which affected him negatively and still does... But he took a step forward and made a difference and will continue to step by step, as tough as it can be at times...I'm trying to follow but can't find the posting referred to? Can you help?
thanks,
Nibor
Posted by yona on July 23, 2000, at 12:32:12
In reply to What's to botch?, posted by dj on July 23, 2000, at 6:21:34
thanks for the post. almost missed it though.. but i didn't. what resonates for me is this:
Creativity is the antithesis of depression. It is a way of saying that what I think and feel matters. . . .
Depression is not just an illness, but a failure of creativity. We all face the problem of creating meaning in our lives. When we're depressed, we've lost hope for meaning. We all need to make a deliberate effort to make the self fertile; for the depressive, that effort is essential to life. (page 323)my creative/spiritual work is THE ONLY thing that addresses my life long major depression. (aside from dealing with the chemistry in my body). without it (my creative work) life indeed would be meaningless. thanks so much for posting this cause it really validates something i have known subliminally for years. once spoken (heard from another) it helps to keep me centered.
thanks again. yona
Posted by dj on July 23, 2000, at 13:34:30
In reply to Re: What's to botch? Which posting? » dj, posted by Nibor on July 23, 2000, at 11:41:36
>
> > Look at the posting that Harry B. made above...one small but important example of a man >>standing up for his rights> I'm trying to follow but can't find the posting referred to? Can you help?
harry b..... JudithC 7/17/00
Re: harry b.....ditto from me. shar 7/18/00
Re: me harry b. 7/21/00
Re: me JudithC 7/21/00
Re: me harry b. 7/21/00
Re: me JudithC 7/21/00
HB--Missed you shar 7/21/00
Re: HB--Missed you harry b. 7/22/00
Re: HB--Missed you shar 7/22/00
Re: HB--Missed you JudithC 7/22/00
Re: harry b..... JudithC 7/22/00
hb Hero of the Psychoppressed » harry b. Oddzilla 7/22/00
Re: me paul
Posted by Nibor on July 23, 2000, at 14:17:36
In reply to These postings - nibor...look up...a row or two..., posted by dj on July 23, 2000, at 13:34:30
Look at the posting that Harry B. made above...one small but important example of a man >>standing up for his rights
>
> > I'm trying to follow but can't find the posting referred to? Can you help?
>
> harry b..... JudithC 7/17/00
> Re: harry b.....ditto from me. shar 7/18/00
> Re: me harry b. 7/21/00
> Re: me JudithC 7/21/00
> Re: me harry b. 7/21/00OOOOEEEEE! Sorry I couldn't figure it out. On my setup it was waaaaaay up.
But thanks for interesting dialogue on depression and creativity. And thanks for the praise for UD and our website.
Nibor
Posted by Angela5 on July 23, 2000, at 16:53:56
In reply to What's to botch?, posted by dj on July 23, 2000, at 6:21:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> People with depression have a special talent for stuffing feelings. They can pretend to themselves and the world that they don't feel normal human emotions. They are very good at the defenses of repression, isolation, and intellectualization. They raise self-denial and self-sacrifice to the point where the self seems to disappear. (page 97)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> It takes a great deal of practice for the depressed person to learn how not to experience emotions, but we get very good at it. Women get especially good at not feeling anger and men get good at not feeling sadness. All of us stop experiencing much joy or happiness. It seems as if when you lose the ability to feel painful feelings, you also lose the ability to feel positive ones. We go through life numbed. (page 100)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------I have been reading "Undoing Depression" (almost finished) and have found that almost all of it is right on target. However, the concept of "stuffing feelings" confuses me, or at least it does in the way that he explains it/I interpret it.
I always thought that it was almost the opposite - that depressives tend to feel many things more deeply than most people.
"It seems as if when you lose the ability to feel painful feelings, you also lose the ability to feel positive ones. We go through life numbed. "
In my experience, it seems like I lost the ability to feel positive feelings while retaining the ability to feel all kinds of painful ones. I don't feel numbed, I feel sad, angry, frustrated, resentful, afraid...
I don't know, maybe I'm overlooking, misinterpreting, or not recognizing something. You seem to have a pretty good grasp on these concepts, so I was hoping that you could help me to better understand how these things may interrelate.
Thanks,
Angela
Posted by kerryB on July 23, 2000, at 17:15:53
In reply to What's to botch?, posted by dj on July 23, 2000, at 6:21:34
> > ..hope i didn't botch this post too bad for basically i have seen/experienced/tried to understand the link between creativity and depression for quite some time and still don't understand it much...
> > yona
>
> It's an ongoing challenge to wrap one's head around these concepts and to make sense of it all, meaningfully. Being creative is about being open to different possibilities and that is so important to moving beyond the malaise of depression and the challenge is to do something meaninful and impactful about the lacks we experience in our selves, lives and societies. It's all about making a difference of some sort, starting with ourselves, because we are canaries in this dysfunctional mine shaft of our societies and if we can make a difference that will make a differnce and can have a ripple effect.
>
> Look at the posting that Harry B. made above...one small but important example of a man standing up for his rights and doing something about someone elses negligence which affected him negatively and still does... But he took a step forward and made a difference and will continue to step by step, as tough as it can be at times...
>
> Back to the link between creativity and depression. Below are some of Richard O'Connor's musing on those connections from his website,
> http://www.undoingdepression.com/excerpts.html.
>
> The following are excerpts from his very good and insightful book: Undoing Depression. If the following resonate with you check out his website for more and the book for even more...
>
> "This is an unorthodox theory of change and recovery. I remember how for decades the analytic community debated whether true "structural change," as opposed to mere "symptom relief," could ever come from anything other than full-blown psychoanalysis. Now prominent scientists argue that recovery can come only from medication. These dogmatic positions are appeals to magic, not reason. I believe that people can make substantial changes in how they live their emotional lives, in their personalities, even in their brain chemistry, by replacing what depression has taught them with new, more adaptive, ways of thinking, feeling, relating, and acting. (page 5)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Depression is a disease of both the mind and of the body, the present and the past. In psychiatry now we have pitched battles going on between opposing camps, those who want to treat the brain and those who want to treat the mind. Both sides have powerful motives for pushing their own theories, some of which are idealistic and some of which are ignoble. Unfortunately, the patient is caught in the middle....Too much time and energy is spent arguing about whether depression is "caused" by early childhood experiences or neurochemical imbalances. Whatever the cause in the past, the patient and his family have to recover in the present. From the standpoint of effective treatment, pursuing these questions is not terribly relevant. Depression, like agoraphobia - another disorder that we now know how to treat - develops a "functional autonomy." Once begun, it continues even after the immediate cause is removed. The patient can have all the insight in the world, but the symptoms have a life of their own. (page 58)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> It is as if depressed people have a leak in the part of the self that contains a positive, nurturing self-image. Instead of having a good opinion of themselves - a reservoir of self-esteem - that can be sustained through the vicissitudes of life, they are overly dependent on love, respect and approval from significant people around them. (page 64)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Depressed people work harder at living than anyone else, although there is little payoff for our effort. But in the course of our hard work, we become very good at certain skills. We are like weight lifters who concentrate exclusively on upper body strength - massive muscles in the arms and trunk but little spindly legs underneath - easy to knock down. Depression permeates every aspect of ourselves, but we can free ourselves by consciously deciding to do things differently. People get good at depression - they overadapt and develop skills that, at best, just keep them going, and often make things worse. (page 72)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> People with depression have lost parts of their selves - a sense of resilience, a core of aspirations, a feeling of vitality - but they don't seek these missing parts directly. Instead, they put on a false front. . . .Those who love them can't understand why they are so difficult to be with and so unhappy. They have become experts at the skills of depression. They adapt certain psychological defense mechanisms to keep their needs out of consciousness. They know how to fool people, but they don't know how to get their own needs met. Many people with depression are experts at fooling people. They cover their own emotions. They act happy and successful. A career, a cause, an exercise regime, can become an obsession. "If I didn't work, then I'd have to think about how miserable I was and how I didn't have any friends and how no one loved me." (page 85)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Heart disease is a good analogy to major depression. Heart disease is "caused" by a complex of factors, including a genetic predisposition, emotional factors like how we handle stress, and habits like diet and exercise. You don't catch heart disease from an infection. You develop it gradually, over time, as plaque builds up in your arteries. Once you cross an invisible threshold marked by standards of blood pressure and cholesterol levels, you have heart disease, and you have it for the rest of your life. Yesterday you were normal, today you have heart disease. . . . Depression may be a similar threshold disease - genetic and biochemical factors may determine a different level of stress for each of us that, once reached, puts us over the edge into depression. (page 89)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> People with depression have a special talent for stuffing feelings. They can pretend to themselves and the world that they don't feel normal human emotions. They are very good at the defenses of repression, isolation, and intellectualization. They raise self-denial and self-sacrifice to the point where the self seems to disappear. (page 97)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> It takes a great deal of practice for the depressed person to learn how not to experience emotions, but we get very good at it. Women get especially good at not feeling anger and men get good at not feeling sadness. All of us stop experiencing much joy or happiness. It seems as if when you lose the ability to feel painful feelings, you also lose the ability to feel positive ones. We go through life numbed. (page 100)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Depressives assume that everyone else is happy most of the time, and that there is something wrong with us for not feeling the same way. . . . But the important implication for depressives is that happiness, instead of being a normal state of being that we don't experience because something is wrong with us, is something that must be cultivated. We need to practice feeling good. When we feel happy, we need to express those feelings to others. When we feel proud, we need to let ourselves sustain the emotion. (pages 116-17)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Most depressed people are great procrastinators. Procrastination means putting off for a later time what "should" be done now. The "should" may come from without, as with the teenager who dawdles over homework, or from within, as with me planting my garden. When it comes from without, it's easy to see the rebelliousness that procrastination expresses. When it comes from within, it's hard to see immediately what purpose procrastination serves - but it may serve many. Most procrastinators don't really know how work works. They assume that all really productive people are always in a positive, energetic frame of mind that lets them jump right into piles of paper and quickly do what needs to be done, only emerging when the task is accomplished. On the contrary, motivation follows action instead of the other way around. When we make ourselves face the task ahead of us, it usually isn't as bad as we think, and we begin to feel good about the progress we start making. Work comes first, and then comes the positive frame of mind. (page 129)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> One of the bitter ironies of depression is that depressed people crave connection with other people, while the nature of the disease makes it impossible for them to connect. (page 155)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Depressives must learn to listen to and take care of their bodies. Divorced from feelings, we tend to see ourselves divorced from our bodies as well. But our "true self" is not up in our head behind our eyes - it is our whole self, body, mind, and spirit. Ignoring body messages like pain, fatigue, and psychophysiological symptoms just sends us off for unnecessary medical care - depressives dramatically overuse physical medicine - and makes us feel more depressed because the medical care is ineffective. (page 183)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Creativity is the antithesis of depression. It is a way of saying that what I think and feel matters. . . . Depression is not just an illness, but a failure of creativity. We all face the problem of creating meaning in our lives. When we're depressed, we've lost hope for meaning. We all need to make a deliberate effort to make the self fertile; for the depressive, that effort is essential to life. (page 323)
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Depression is a disease and a social problem, an illness to be treated professionally and a failure of adaptation that we must overcome through self-determination. These days, with managed care and medication so predominant, I'm concerned that professional help can't go far enough. Medication and brief treatment don't reduce the likelihood of future depression. The grim truth is that if you have one episode of major depression, you have only a one in two chance of avoiding another; if you have two, your chances of avoiding a third are only 30 percent; and if you have three episodes, your chances of avoiding future depression are only one in ten. But I believe very strongly that a self-directed program of recovery such as I am recommending can reduce those odds, and increase our satisfaction with our selves and our lives.
>
> Living your life according to these principles will not be easy. It requires a total commitment to change. It means accepting that much of what you take for granted about yourself contributes to your depression, and that you, and no one else, have to devote a lot of time and energy to a continuous self-examination. Then it means that you will have to self-consciously practice new skills to replace your old habits of depression. Learning new skills is not easy, but it can be done. As you are doing this, you are likely to feel anxious and uncomfortable. Remember this is the way you feel when you try anything new; with enough practice the new skills become part of yourself. And you will begin to recover from depression. (page 307)"
>
>
> Sante!
>
> dj
>
> P.S. - Also check out Kay Redfield-Jameson on amazon.com. She wrote a book on the links between depression and creativity which you can find out more about there...
To botch means to mess something up.......
I say it all the time like.....oh no! I've botched this one up!!!!! etc etc etcKerry
Posted by dj on July 23, 2000, at 17:49:15
In reply to Re: What's to botch? » dj, posted by kerryB on July 23, 2000, at 17:15:53
> > > ..hope i didn't botch this post too bad
>
> To botch means to mess something up.......
> I say it all the time like.....oh no! I've botched this one up!!!!! etc etc etc
>
> KerryI know that Kerry. I interpreted Yona's comment as being one where she was, perhaps, being overly hard on herself for no reason which I could discern and attempted to reassure her that, if that is the case that may be but a symptom of a depressive and/or perefectionistic mindset, which may be causing her to stress herself unecessarily.
My mother and her sister (my aunt) are known to be world class worriers, at times. I sent them both a copy of a great NYer cartoon which shows two folks at the pearly gates going over a long list, which they are well along. One comments to the other: "No that's not a sin either, you must have worried yourself to death."
I try not to but know that I can stress myself out unecessarily and excessively with needless nitpicking, when I'm being hard on myself ( or others ; ), though rarely as much as on myself...
Sante!
dj
Posted by dj on July 23, 2000, at 18:04:05
In reply to Re: Undoing Depression » dj, posted by Angela5 on July 23, 2000, at 16:53:56
>... the concept of "stuffing feelings" confuses me, or at least it does in the way that he explains it/I interpret it.
>
> I always thought that it was almost the opposite - that depressives tend to feel many >things more deeply than most people.I believe that in many ways folks with depressive tendencies are highly sensitive and sometimes attempt to deny their sensitivities in the various ways that O'Connor outlines in the book.
That is what "stuffing feelings is all about" - attempting to deny them and mis-directing or mis-interpreting them...
> In my experience, it seems like I lost the ability to feel positive feelings while retaining the ability to feel all kinds of painful ones. I don't feel numbed, I feel sad, angry, frustrated, >resentful, afraid...
If we clamp down on or ignore those feelings excessively, rather than finding ways to effectively work through the causes we then go into numbness, which and ADs can have that effect as well, though they can also help thaw numbness, which has progressed to a dangerous point...> I don't know, maybe I'm overlooking, misinterpreting, or not recognizing something. You seem to have a pretty good grasp on these concepts, so I was hoping that you could help me to better understand how these things may >interrelate.
Angela,
Hopefully those brief explanations may have been of some help.
Here's a bit more of an explanation which may help from the following site, where you can find more information and the full article:
http://www.pdseminars.com/PD_Publishing/shen20.html#depression"William Styron, the author of Sophie's Choice, and who suffered from acute bouts of depression, states in his book Darkness Visible "When I was first aware that I had been laid low by the disease, I felt a need to register a strong protest against the word depression...it is a noun with a bland tonality and lacking any magisterial presence, used indifferently to describe an economic decline or a rut in the ground, a true wimp of a word for such a major illness. It slithers...innocuously through the language like a slug...I would lobby for a truly arresting designation 'Brainstorm', a veritable howling tempest in the brain."
Depression is alternatively expressed as an emotional illness, a physical disease or a process depending upon the background of the person describing it. However it is defined, it is a problem that has been misdiagnosed, mismanaged and where individuals are often mistreated. We do know that depression is not abnormal or crazy; it is not a bad mood, a phase of life, 'the blues' or getting old. Depression is more intense, it lasts longer and it significantly interferes with effective day to day functioning of the individual. The effect on the family can be equally devastating. Primary care physicians report that often, prior to the diagnosis of an individual's depression, the entire family will have an increase in illnesses and accidents.
Looking at its many faces, depression may begin with a clear or dramatic event or loss, or may be existential in nature. More often there is no obvious explanation or identifiable situation. For some the repressed energy that contributes to depression is linked back to pre-adolescence.
By depression I mean a freezing of life energy, isolation, an entrapment in old or faulty beliefs, a source of internalized anger, and often, incomplete grieving. These are manifested by withdrawal from contact and relationships, disruptions in patterns of appetite and sleeping, confusion or inability to focus or make clear decisions, increase in anxiety and/or fearfulness and sometimes suicidal thoughts. Abraham Lincoln said in the midst of his own depression "I am now the most miserable man living. If what I feel were equally distributed to the whole human family there would not be one cheerful face on earth."
Sante!dj
Posted by dj on July 23, 2000, at 18:07:47
In reply to Re:These postings...look up...245 rows, 27 threads, posted by Nibor on July 23, 2000, at 14:17:36
> OOOOEEEEE! Sorry I couldn't figure it out. On my setup it was waaaaaay up.
> But thanks for interesting dialogue on depression and creativity. And thanks for the praise for UD and our website.
> NiborNo worries...
I think UD is bang on and the web-site is a great asset and look forward to your updates, which I hope you will continue to notify folks here, about.
Sante!
dj
Posted by yona on July 23, 2000, at 20:09:26
In reply to Re:These postings...look up...245 rows, 27 threads, posted by dj on July 23, 2000, at 18:07:47
i actually wrote the sentence, 'hope i don't botch this ...' because this am when making my post i thought perhaps i was soooo right brain that i wasn't getting my point across. it seems though i needn't worry... which you are correct i do alot of in terms of whether i have been understood or not.
anyways, this thread, creativity and depression is very interesting to me.. and others too it appears. i am also not one to cover up my feelings...tend to be a wallower. i had wished most of my life, before meds and megatherapy, that i could just act normal and cover up my feelings so noone knew they were there. so in that way i related to a few of the quotes you put in there from the book. but the one i mentioned before: depression is the antithesis of creativity... now that one i wrote on the wall! :) thanks yo
Posted by dj on July 23, 2000, at 22:51:52
In reply to Re:botching and all that:dj, posted by yona on July 23, 2000, at 20:09:26
>i am also not one to cover up my feelings...tend to be a wallower. i had wished most of my life, before meds and megatherapy, that i could just act normal and cover up my feelings so noone knew they were there. so in that way i related to a few of the quotes you put in there from the book. but the one i mentioned before: depression is the antithesis of creativity... now that one i >wrote on the wall! :) thanks yo
Good on ya!! Hopefully you did it with a grand and/or meaningful (for you) flourish!!!
That statement rang true for me too. Though I never considered myself creative, I am actually quite so. More with words, generally, than not.
Though, I have had GREAT fun when doing some art therapy exercises, on occassion, where I've played with clay and/or crayons and/or other media. It's all about finding unique ways to express meaningfully and often beautifully (to us at least, and maybe our mothers ; ) what is inside.
Someone I love listening to, on occasion, because she is very creative, orginal, compelling, passionate and compasssionate on the issue of recognizing and dealing with our feelings as they are, rather than we might wish them to be, is Marianne Williamson (http://www.marianne.com)who has a few interesting books which are listed at that sight, along with some of her insights, some of which I've quoted here in the past.
MW has some very interesting and compelling things to say about depression and her experiences of it in "Return to Love" and her other books.
Sante!
dj
Posted by yona on July 23, 2000, at 23:32:09
In reply to Creatively un- botching and all that: yo..., posted by dj on July 23, 2000, at 22:51:52
geez... i got that (australian) accent all the way over here in california... :) (or am i just projecting here?) i guess that was a not so coy way of asking... where are ye from with en accent like that eh> anyways, i have swam around marianne williamson a bit myself. she's very interesting. since you been throwin a book er two at me thought i'd throw one at you. the absolute best thang i every read in regards to creating meaning/spirituality/creativity is julia cameron, the artist way. if you haven't read it, and are interested in starting a creative/spiritual journey definately go pay 12 bucks (us) and got get this book. you'll be surprised to find out how creative you really are.
yo
Posted by dj on July 24, 2000, at 0:00:42
In reply to Re: Creatively un- botching and all that:dj, posted by yona on July 23, 2000, at 23:32:09
>
> geez... i got that (australian) accent all the way over here in california... :) (or am i just projecting here?) i guess that was a not so coy way of asking... where are ye from with en accent >like that ehEh! I'm a Canad-eh-ian, like Michael J. Fox, Wayne Gretzky, Joni Mitchell, Buffy St. Marie and countless more of my creative countryfolk who gravitate south of the border, where your dollars are bigger but not your country. ; )
Michael J. came from Vancouver, which is where I came to. I'm from Nova Scotia on the East Coast - a bluenoser (not a brown one in sight ; ) and as some say out there: "Come to where I'm at and I'll get to where you are too." or "I went down to the boat (pronounced bout) to get my coat and there it was. Gone.)
I've done the Artist's Way with some friends but found it too much on based on the AA model, in the way it is structured. I prefered Natalie Goldman's approach in "Writing Down the Bones" and the approach in the book "Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain" by Betty Edwards.
Sante! (another canuck kinda clue - french ; )
dj
Posted by yona on July 24, 2000, at 6:30:42
In reply to Re: Creatively projecting - yo.. ; ), posted by dj on July 24, 2000, at 0:00:42
i'm canadian too eh? lost the accent till i went back to ontario to bury my dad this past spring and picked it up again eh? all the relatives saying eh? was just too much for me.. had to start doing it again eh?
to top it off harry potter and his whole scottish thang blairing in me head .. now the voices in me head just a bloody mess eh?
anyways, sorry you weren't into the julia book. to me it resonated cause 'gaud', my little creative (or is that manic) genius in my head isn't someone who wants to punish me anymore. what a relief eh? (okay it's punishing to get 10 good ideas in one day and only be able to work on 1 or 2 of them... but that's nothing like it used to be.. i guess it just helped me to lose the guilt behind working with the 'great spirit'. anyways, i knew i heard something familiar in that accent. g'day to ya eh?
yo
Posted by dj on July 24, 2000, at 18:32:35
In reply to Re: Creatively projecting -dj, posted by yona on July 24, 2000, at 6:30:42
> i'm canadian too eh? lost the accent till i went back to ontario to bury my dad this past spring and picked it up again eh...i knew i heard something familiar in that accent. g'day to ya eh?
> yoOz wasn't a bad guess as they are just a bunch of displaced Celts (and Cockneys who are close enough) so they have similar black humour, inflections and attitudes to us MerryTimers. ; )
So you are down in the U.S.A. now? Must have takens some creativity to get and stay there, eh non?
Sante!
dj
Posted by Janice on July 24, 2000, at 22:32:07
In reply to Yo, Yo!, posted by dj on July 24, 2000, at 18:32:35
we seem to be over represented on this board, considering our population. Hmmmm, must have something to do with our climate, n'est pas, eh?
Posted by dj on July 24, 2000, at 23:46:16
In reply to Re: Yo, Yo!, posted by Janice on July 24, 2000, at 22:32:07
> we seem to be over represented on this board, considering our population. Hmmmm, must have >something to do with our climate, n'est pas, eh?
I think we are at about 1/10th the pop. here, which is the appropriate ratio, just some of us Canucks get on posting jags, which I don't connect to the weather.
It's hot here and whether or not it is there, it sounds like you are ; ), given the tone of some of your postings below.
You, goooo girrrrrrllllllllllll!!!!!!!!
Sante!
dj
Posted by yona on July 25, 2000, at 6:37:51
In reply to Re: Yo, Janice.., posted by dj on July 24, 2000, at 23:46:16
actually i came to the states years ago with me parents.. one scot, one prussian...
i still love canada more in terms of people and 'the view'... concrete doesn't do that much for me. but when i was up in windsor this past april and the wind blew, i felt it go right through me. here in sf cold is 40-50 degrees. in places in canada getting to 0 is warm.
rather than taking a creative act to be here, it's taken quite a creative act to stay (read: how does one not get depressed admist alot of strangers). ... nice to connect with some canunks.. i will be going to scotland to eh.. in august. visit some of those celts lying beneath their gravesites.
where do you two live in o'canada? yo(yo)
Posted by dj on July 25, 2000, at 11:07:18
In reply to Re: YoYo, janice and dj, posted by yona on July 25, 2000, at 6:37:51
> i will be going to scotland to eh.. in august. visit some of those celts lying beneath their gravesites.
> where do you two live in o'canada? yo(yo)I'm in Vancouver on the wet-coast (though semi-sunny today) and J. is in Cow-town (Calgary) from T.O. (Toronto) and has family roots in the Merry-times - a true Canuck. And though of Acadian (franco-cdn) background they too link to the Celts who used to rule Europe before the Romans came along with their anal and treacherous ways which still influence much of our society.
The Celts still rule though, behind the scenes!!
Sante!
dj
Posted by Janice on July 26, 2000, at 19:39:26
In reply to Locale - Re: YoYo, janice and dj, posted by dj on July 25, 2000, at 11:07:18
Jees dj…and I heard my people were from petty criminals and the very poorest of the french people, and the women were orphans shipped over here to populate North America for the French. I like your version of history much better :~) I guess I just have to go a little further back.
French people are latin, not celtic. I don't believe they are related dj. you have a good memory, Janice
Posted by dj on July 26, 2000, at 22:07:51
In reply to Re: Locale - Re: YoYo, janice and dj, posted by Janice on July 26, 2000, at 19:39:26
> French people are latin, not celtic. I don't believe they are related dj. you have a good >memory, Janice
I do have a very good memory for things I find of interest, Janice, and other things that I don't find interesting tax my resources - like the IT industry ; ). I forgot to mention your sojurn in Vancouver, this time last year or so, didn't I?I don't know about the petty criminal elements in your background but here's a bit of Celtic his and her-stories for ya:
Who were the Celts and where did they originate?
According to Rannie
Gillis author of "Travels in the Celtic World", "There is very little
factual knowledge of these barbarians, until we reach the time of the early
Greek and Roman historians. To these learned men, a barbarian was simply any
person who lived outside the fringes of the Greek or Roman world. < Just as
the Irish who lived outside the Anglo-dominated Pale enclave of Dublin, were
described as being: "beyond the Pale" >...."Aristotle < who was a didactic idiot and the source of many of today's
worlds ill-informed practices ie. - see "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle
Maintenance" - Robert Pirsig > was not too impressed with the Celts he came
into contact with, and he referred to them as 'savages' < not unlike those
who conquered America and thier views of the indigenous peoples - ignorance
is bliss >...The Greek historian, Strabo, commented that: "The whole race is
madly fond of war, high-spirited and quick to battle. < times haven't changed
; ) >, but otherwise straightforward and not of evil character...The great
Roman historian, Diodourus Siculus, left us a meticulous description of the
Celts who lived in modern day France. "...They are exceedingly fond of wine,
and drink it greedily < ditto ; ) >...An argument can lead to a fight, often
to the death...they are quick of mind with good natural ability for
learning.""It was however, their ferocious manner and their prowess in battle that
spread fear throughout the continent. They were virtually unstoppable in
combat. With no apparent fear of death, they took no prisoners and would
kill themselves rather than face the ignominy of capture. To quote Strabo
once again: "When the armies are drawn up in battle array they are likely to
advance before the battle line and to challenge the bravest of their
opponents to single combat. When someone accepts their challenge to battle,
they loudly recite the deeds of valour of their ancestors and proclaim their
own glorious qualities, at the same time abusing and making little of their
opponents.""Many barbaric tribes, in addition to the Celts, have earned their place in
the history of western Europe. In relation to the ancient Greco-Roman world,
we have the Scythians in the east, the Iberians in the west, and the Germans
and Celts in the north and the centre. All of these tribes are Indo-European
in origin.The expanding Greek and Roman empires later absorbed all these tribes.
Because of their geographical location, the Celts would form an integral
part of the Roman Empire and play a most important role in the evolution of
modern-day France. They would play a fundamental role in laying the
foundations of modern-day Europe...The name 'Celt' probably refers to a
collection of related tribes that inhabited a region of Central Europe
before the advent of the Greek and Roman empires...the Celtic languages were
very closely related to the languages of the Indian sub-continent, as well
as such other diverse tongues as Iranian and Armenian. This would seem to
indicate a common origin in central Eurasia.Prehistoric archeaology indicates that sometime around 1500 B.C. the
Celts were firmly entrenched in the centre of Europe, where Czechslovkaia is
today."For more you can do your own reading and research. One last quote from
Gillis: "For a period of four hundred years, from around 600 to 200 B.C.,
they were the most powerful people in the Western world."Sante,
dj
Posted by Janice on July 27, 2000, at 0:30:31
In reply to janice - your celtic routes ; ) are showing..., posted by dj on July 26, 2000, at 22:07:51
interesting reading dj. I am not Celtic although I really love what I know about the culture. I always thought their language was related to the Scandinavian countries. Did you see Brave heart with Mel Gibson?
the story I gave you previously is the history of the acadian people. Although at the time (1620) they were consider criminals for not paying their taxes and for stealing a loaf of bread, of course, in reality they were just very poor and hungry.
As for their gene pool, ummm, well maybe a little inbred, Janice
Posted by dj on July 27, 2000, at 12:13:41
In reply to Re: janice - your celtic routes ; ) are showing..., posted by Janice on July 27, 2000, at 0:30:31
Janice,
I am familiar with the Acadians history. However, my point is that there always has been lots of intermingling of races and that as pure as some of us might like to think we are, we are all mongrels of many genetic combos... so you may have some Celt in ya... not a bad thing...
And yes I did see Braveheart and despite British protestations the story as depicted is true and those chinless germanic-orginated gumps were a bunch of butchers... but so were all our ancestors at one time or another...
Sante!
dj
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