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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Kathie on May 31, 2000, at 0:23:28
Hey gang,
I had a most interesting few days. First of all my 2nd daughter graduated high school on the weekend and it was busy...Friday night was the dinner/dance for the grads, it was formal..tuxedos and ball gowns all around...lovely decorations, many limo's etc. My daughter and her friends had a wonderful time and came home near to 3am.
Saturday was grad ceremonies followed by a reception, which was very pleasant...the only negative on the day was my ex-husband, my daughter's father was there because his step daughter also graduated and he did not so much as acknowledge his child's existence...his mother did, thank goodness, but he pointedly ignored my daughter.
Sunday night I get a call from my eldest daughter's boyfriend's mother...apparently her son had some sort of breakdown and my daughter, who lived with them got kicked out of their house. Blah blah blah...to make a long story shorter, both of them have been using Crystal meth for the past year (duh, mom, she has lost 40 pounds over the past year, she is a little dynamo when she visits and cleans my house like a white tornado - hindsight, what a wonderful thing).
Monday I get a call from the mother again saying my child needs help...so I went a picked her up...thats a 1.5 hour drive there and 1.5 hours home..I take her to see a doctor, who refers her to a mental health worker immediately....with my help she manages to convince the psyc doc she needs help badly and they arrange to get her into detox....but I have to drive her to a city 3 hours away...and 3 hours back.....*sigh*.....I got home at midnight last night.
I am feeling physically and emotionally drained as it is...and today I find out my 14 year old daughter has been temporarily suspended from school for skipping (that has always struck me as a really stupid punishment, the kid cuts classes so the powers that belet her stay home and sleep in, watch TV and do what it is she wanted to be doing in the first place!!!!). I swear to you having kids can be the toughest, hardest part of life there is!!
I don't even know why I am writing this post really, this doesn't seem really related to the board's topic, but I guess it just helps me deal with it all to be able to write it all down...vent a little if you will....any insights, be sure and write them down!!!!
Thanks for listening.
Kathie
PS> Now you know why BoBB doesn't get to me, I can't see past my own little corner of the universe at the moment...no time to dwell on the human condition.
Posted by Kath on June 1, 2000, at 9:35:02
In reply to Hope....kids....drugs.....life....., posted by Kathie on May 31, 2000, at 0:23:28
BOY CAN I RELATE!!! For details see my post on the "New at Celexa at Psycho-Babble" thread.I'm so sorry you've having to go through that. I've been through taking my kid to Emerg at the Hosp when his friends called me to tell me he was lying behind the garbage dumpster at a local fast food place drunk & stoned & they were worried about him, when he was 15. Etc., etc. You're right, having kids can be REALLY hard. Stress City.
You have my support & warm, caring thoughts.
Kath
Posted by Noa on June 1, 2000, at 16:47:04
In reply to Re: Hope....kids....drugs - I can relate!!!!!, posted by Kath on June 1, 2000, at 9:35:02
Sorry, Kath and Kathie, I may have responded to either or both of you in the past few days thinking of the other's post. I am confused, but working on getting this straight.
Posted by Noa on June 1, 2000, at 16:51:53
In reply to Re: Hope....kids....drugs - I can relate!!!!!, posted by Kath on June 1, 2000, at 9:35:02
To add to it, there is also Kathy, who is a new poster here, too. Don't worry, I will learn.
Posted by Noa on June 1, 2000, at 16:54:26
In reply to Hope....kids....drugs.....life....., posted by Kathie on May 31, 2000, at 0:23:28
Both of you are dealing with extremely stressful situations. I can think of few other situations that are more taxing than dealing with kids spinning out of control. I don't know how I would do it.
Posted by Elizabeth on June 3, 2000, at 8:53:30
In reply to Re: Hope....kids....drugs.....life....., posted by Noa on June 1, 2000, at 16:54:26
> Both of you are dealing with extremely stressful situations. I can think of few other situations that are more taxing than dealing with kids spinning out of control. I don't know how I would do it.
Kathie...I hope things start looking up for you. I know how tiring long drives can be. I take it there aren't any closer options?
Hey, if your daughter wants, maybe she could post here. I'd be glad to talk to her.
All this talk of trouble with kids scares me. I've been wondering whether it's a good idea for me to have kids...like, what if they get my genes and end up screwed up, plus I can't deal with it effectively because I happen to be having a relapse of my depression at the time? I'd feel so guilty. (Not that this is an appropriate response, just an expected one.)
Posted by Adam on June 3, 2000, at 16:07:22
In reply to Re: Hope....kids....drugs.....life....., posted by Elizabeth on June 3, 2000, at 8:53:30
I have dealt with similar concerns, and still deal with them, especially these days, since I am approaching my sixth month in a relationship with a woman I feel very serious about. She is older than me, and has also suffered from depression. We both met, quite ironically, during a period when we were changing or starting treatment, and we both became "involved" a short while after we found relief. We have much in common, and that has been a great source of strength.
The desire to have a family is a very powerful one for some, her more so than me. Age may be a factor, and (wincing at the implications) sex. As I have mentioned elsewhere, I am, in my views of humanity, a genetic determinist, which means I cannot ignore the influences of "hormones" on our "judgement", though I do not deny that human beings posess, to some extent, an ability for self-reflection that allows us a degree of rational freedom from the influence of the "selfish gene". All of it may be the ultimate manifestation in us of the selective pressures that have shaped our psychology, giving us the ability to weigh altruistic values against simpler urges toward fight-or-flight and sex. Being intelligent, the more we know, the more the altruistic must ponder.
What the information is telling us is that genes probably play a role in all mental illness, and most certainly do in some forms of it. Environment is definitely an essential part of the equation. However, given the paradigmatic example of PTSD, some people confronted with attrocity develop pathology, while others don't. Still further, some may, rather than recoiling from violence, be drawn to it. Those who fall in the middle of the spectrum, from debilitating revulsion to sociopathic fascination are what we hold up as the ideal norm.
I'm guessing that the real differences between the ideal and those who fall ouside of it are small, subtle, and dependant on extremely complex interactions between genes and environment, which is why the genetic component(s) of depression have been so hard to pin down, though they doubtlessly exist. In a way, the war veteran who develops PTSD is, to me, easier to understand than a person who is somehow able to move on from such experiences relatively unscathed. Perhaps such innate characteristics, given more fertile ground in which to grow, might have developed into a nobility and hightened sense of compassion the "average" person would admire as a strength rather than a weakness. Perhaps if I had not lost a parent when I was very young and had not been physically and verbally abused so much, what has manifested itself as severe depression, anxiety, and obsessive self-hatred might have left me simply introverted, cerebral and overly meticulous, qualities not everyone admires, but certainly not in need of a psychiatric cure.
And yet I am struck by the change selegiline has caused in my mood. Among the more objective measurements of my mental state I have seen, my HAMD score went from 29 to 6 in a month. What does this mean about my biology, both innate and/or shaped by experience?
I haven't a clue. What is to be done when considering progeny? The only choice I can see before me is that if I find myself in the kind of relationship where I could have a family, I simply lack the necessary information to force me not to try. I might regret it, but for now I simply have no way of knowing. If I am to focus on the positive, while acknowledging the negative, then I must admit that while the odds are higher than I would like that a child of ours would develop a mood or anxiety disorder, it is not, based on what I know, a foregone conclusion. And even if mental illness is an inevitability, it seems I have clues as to what an adequate treatment regimine might be. I cannot assume that my child would not be, as I now finally am, happy to be alive.
Lacking the knowledge needed to be a moral and effective eugenicist, it would be wrong to try to be. I leave that, as I must, to future, wiser, and better equipped generations, who hopefully would not begrudge me the happiness I might hope to bring to myself and those I care about by having a family.
>
> Kathie...I hope things start looking up for you. I know how tiring long drives can be. I take it there aren't any closer options?
>
> Hey, if your daughter wants, maybe she could post here. I'd be glad to talk to her.
>
> All this talk of trouble with kids scares me. I've been wondering whether it's a good idea for me to have kids...like, what if they get my genes and end up screwed up, plus I can't deal with it effectively because I happen to be having a relapse of my depression at the time? I'd feel so guilty. (Not that this is an appropriate response, just an expected one.)
Posted by Noa on June 4, 2000, at 13:26:57
In reply to Re: Hope....kids....drugs.....life....., posted by Adam on June 3, 2000, at 16:07:22
Adam, I tend to think (speculation) that the extent to which genetics determines anything varies. Perhaps some people's genetic predisposition to one or another traits or illnesses has more weight than it would for another. Same with environment: some environmental experiences tend to weigh in with more influence. Consider the vast numbers of permutations in outcome, then, that might be possible.
It can be thought of as an issue of "fit" between nature and nurture. For example, a child of a certain temperament might be in a less than optimal fit with one parent, but might be a great fit with another (a colicky kid and a short tempered parent? An easy going, easy to care for kid who is pretty self sufficient, with a rejection sensitive parent who perceives the child as detached? An impulsive kid with an obsessive compulsive parent? etc. etc.) To say nothing of more devastating situations like extreme poverty, severely disabling conditions, abuse, etc., trauma from war or natural disasters.
Posted by Noa on June 4, 2000, at 14:27:44
In reply to Re: Hope....kids....drugs.....life....., posted by Noa on June 4, 2000, at 13:26:57
PS--
Realized I focused exclusively on negative experiences, but it is important to consider positive ones, too. Protective factors can go a long way to ensuring a better outcome.
This is the end of the thread.
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