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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 386 to 410 of 488. Go back in thread:
Posted by Brazilnut on August 26, 2007, at 14:38:43
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine: 10 days, 10 years – a question, posted by Maritza on August 24, 2007, at 0:26:19
Hello Maritza!
I’m happy to see you are on control of the situation and with a happy future ahead! But I hope someday soon you’ll quit Remeron. None of these drugs are made for long term use. Some people can benefit from their use for years, but many develop tolerance, addiction and get trapped.
Congratulations for having quit smoking! And with a so noble motivation as being a good model for your students. This is great!
I never had high BP, except for short periods quitting (legal) drugs. Anyway, Inderal has a second indication to control anxiety and that’s way it was prescribed. That was by the end of last year, when I was having withdrawal symptoms from dozens (yes, 25!) of different drugs I had the 9 years before.
My struggle with prescribed meds started in 1997. I had sleep apnea (snoring) and trouble to sleep, so I asked the doctor “something to sleep” during coming vacations. He gave me Xanax, without any information on what was it or how to stop it. I stopped cold turkey when the box finished and felt like crazy two days later. I went to a psychiatrist who didn’t recognize a withdrawal crisis and simply told me I had depression, and gave me an antidepressant. This started the familiar cycle of taking a new med, feeling bad, stopping it, feeling worse, starting a new one… changing docs and diagnostics (depression, bipolar, anxiety, apnea again, RLS, panic...)
In 2005 I hit that site on benzos, and finally understood what was going on. I didn’t need any of the drugs given to me, including Remeron and Inderal. They were given because doctors were trying to treat what they believed to be illnesses but were only withdrawals symptoms. But I didn’t grasp at the first moment how serious was the problem and how long the recovery could last, so I accepted some other “safe” drugs to cope with the withdrawals.
Initially Inderal helped to control the anxiety, but soon I developed tolerance. Now I have “interdose withdrawals”: when a dose wears off and the next is not in action, the body feels I have not enough and withdrawal symptoms start - in this case unbelievable anxiety attacks. If I look for a doctor now, I would be prescribed more of the same and I could end up trapped forever.
This is the problem I have: protracted withdrawal symptoms from so many drugs and tolerance to Inderal. The last long term (1 year) benzo I had was Klonopin, which I quit 27 months ago. But the protracted symptoms can stick to you for years.
Unfortunately, there is no expert to treat this. It is only patience, strength and a healthy life style. I strong recommend you to take a look at that site (www.benzo.org.uk) to understand what these drugs can do. The site is very well organized and documented. It is based on the feedback of hundreds of benzo sufferers and in the scientific work of Prof. Ashton. Their forum is very supportive, no post is unanswered, by users or moderators. I know you are not on benzos, but to protect your family and friends it’s better be informed.
My GP, after many years, believes now what I say on benzos, so I’m not alone. I’m doing CBT for 6 months, but there is not much help from there. I am a catholic too, or at least was, because I don’t practice any more.
Maritza, it is my pleasure to see you well and going ahead! God bless you too!
Bob
Posted by Brazilnut on August 26, 2007, at 19:13:57
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine: 10 days, 10 years – a question, posted by 13243 on July 9, 2007, at 18:14:09
13243:Congratulations for your decision!
But from my own experience and my readings on the Internet I would say a slower taper would be advisable. Many times withdrawal problems beguin days or weeks after the last pill. And then there is no coming back.
Good luck!
Bob
Posted by Maritza on August 26, 2007, at 23:09:53
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine: 10 days, 10 years – a question, posted by Brazilnut on August 26, 2007, at 14:38:43
Thank you for your encouragement but I could not have moved forward without reaffirming my faith and surrendering myself to God. I have made many mistakes and have failed in many important areas in my life over the past few years. I believe God spared my life in my car accident. While I was recovering from my neck surgery He made me aware of how much I had disappointed Him. This caused me tremendous guilt and I developed severe anxiety. I believe God was disciplining me so as to correct me and call me back to Him. He did this because of His great mercy and love. What father does not correct his child? Although I didn't realize this at the time, I did know that I had to change myself completely. I also knew I could not do it on my own. No one could change me. Only God. But He would not do so unless I surrendered myself to Him, completely. This I have done and will always do. I am eternally grateful to Him and want only tell others or show them by my example His great power, love and mercy, for all of us. Surviving my accident truly was a miracle! I lost control over my car in ice and was heading directly into a very large tree. I drove a convertible (very light weight) and the airbag did not deploy. My surgery was very risky and complicated. My doctor told me a number of times about the risks of dying or becoming comatose or permanently paralized, and the possibility of permanent severe pain. I was losing function in both my arms and needed to have the surgery done. Three discs were badly compressing my spinal cord. God's mercy spared me from these outcomes and I have been swimming, biking and going to the gym all summer! Additionally, due to factors that I caused myself, the likelihood of me finding employment in the career I love, teaching, was close to impossible. God's power opened doors for me and I now have two teaching jobs! The factors did not change, but with God, all things are possible. Many numerous sorrows from ruined relationships have been turned into peace and joy. I divorced my husband 2 years ago because of many reasons. Although I failed as a wife, I have asked God and my ex-husband for forgiveness and have been given a peace like I've never known before. I have learned that a parent can not help a child that has run away from home. The child has turned his back on their love, compassion and support because they want to have their own way. I have also learned that if that child returns home, apologizes sincerely, and allows his parents to take care of him, they will welcome him home and provide everything he needs, because it makes them happy and because they love him. It was that way with my parents. I moved home before my surgery and have been here since. I married young (24) to escape their control. I've learned much since then. Although I take responsiblity for my failings in my marriage, my ex-husband was an alcoholic who abused me mentally and eventually physically. We were married for 10 years. As a result, I lost my faith and nearly lost my soul. I began praying fervently before my surgery. God is our Father, and because He is perfect and Holy, His love is perfect and Holy. He is the Father I spoke of above. His love, power and mercy is beyond our understanding but we don't need to understand it to receive it. He is more powerful than abuse,addiction, anxiety, depression Klonpin, Remeron, Inderal or any physical or emotional distraction we are challenged with. These challenges are meant to turn us away. Without God we are trapped. In God there is Hope. I am blessed to experience so directly His awesome power and will always be grateful. I tell you this because I want my life to bring Glory to Him. His goodness has allowed me to help others and they will inturn glorify Him as well. Suffering does not come from God but He allows it in that it can motivate you to turn to Him. He's waiting for you. He will change your life, your heart, your mind, your body and your soul. I place my life on it. I am a living testimony of it. May God open your heart and mind to this message, for His Glory, because it makes Him happy to take care of you. May He guide you toward the help you need and may you have peace in your journey.
Maritza
ps. 8 days smoke-free! And zero withdrawal!!
I have been going to masses at a Catholic Church that prays over its members indiviually. They offer this service once a month and each time my faith is strengthened by the grace I receive. I've shared some of my miracles with you above, and those were just the smaller ones.
Posted by Brazilnut on August 29, 2007, at 13:00:00
In reply to Re: Mirtazapine: 10 days, 10 years – a question, posted by Maritza on August 26, 2007, at 23:09:53
Maritza,I could not imagine how much did you overcame. You are a survivor.
As for religion, I have been thinking of it my whole life, and currently I am satisfied with my view. Thanks for your genuine interest in helping me. You are a true Christian.
God bless you forever.
Bob
Posted by yataghan50 on December 7, 2007, at 5:28:00
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by caustin on July 1, 2006, at 5:14:58
Hi guys. Just wanted to add my experience and ask a few questions
I have been off mirtazapine for about 3 weeks after taking it quite consistently for about 6 months (15mg daily).
I am struggling. I have been suicidal, severe mood swings, some nights I feel so hot, anxious and sickly in my stomach I can't sleep.
I want to know, does it get better? I don't know how much longer I can hold out, but I have come this far I don't want to relapse now.
Posted by brazilnut on December 8, 2007, at 9:38:22
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by yataghan50 on December 7, 2007, at 5:28:00
> Hi guys. Just wanted to add my experience and ask a few questions
>
> I have been off mirtazapine for about 3 weeks after taking it quite consistently for about 6 months (15mg daily).
>
> I am struggling. I have been suicidal, severe mood swings, some nights I feel so hot, anxious and sickly in my stomach I can't sleep.
>
> I want to know, does it get better? I don't know how much longer I can hold out, but I have come this far I don't want to relapse now.Hi Yata!
Yes, it will get better. But the time required to get better depends on each person. You were on a low dose and a not so long period of time, so the chances of a short recover are good. But “short” may be more than a few weeks. Did you taper off it or just stop?
I have been on mirtazapine for 3.5 years, at 45mg, quit 5 months ago, and am still suffering the withdrawal. But I had a lot of other drugs that are contributing more to my problems.
Everything you are reporting is usual during mirtazapine withdrawal and will wane off with time. Just hang on and, very important, do not take any other drug to overcome the symptoms. Another drug could be another bigger problem later.
What I’m telling you I learned from my own experience and the experience of many others, reported in support forums. Now I am a member of www.benzoisland.org, a very good forum on benzodiazepines (stuff like Valium). Since many benzo users are also on antidepressants, many stories of a/ds (including mirtazapine) are reported there. Another good source for a/ds is www.paxilprogress.org. I was told that there is some information on other a/ds there too, besides paxil. There’s also an excellent book on the dangers of a/ds, “Prozac Backlash”, by Joseph Glenmullen, a clinical instructor in psychiatry at the Harvard Medical School. The subject of the book is SSRIs a/ds (a class that doesn’t include mirtazapine), but mirtazapine is mentioned there as having similar potential for problems.
Just be patient and believe you’ll get better. You are not sick, what you’re feeling is the effect of that crap.
Good luck!
Bob
Posted by jimbobwe64 on December 8, 2007, at 10:16:24
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by brazilnut on December 8, 2007, at 9:38:22
Hello, I just thought I'd put my two cents worth as it's been a long while since I've been on here.
The only thing I can say, Yata, is to hang in there. It does get better over time. I've been off Remeron now since June 2006 and I'm finally just starting to level out. Before that I was on the Remeron for approximately one year and prior to that I was on SSRI's (paxil) since 1996.
Keep in mind that my "lengthy" withdrawal is more likely because I'd been on anti-depressants for such a long time, and if you've only been on Remeron for only around six months, then you would think it would be considerably less.
The question I have is; "Were you suicidal and/or depressed prior to going on Remeron"?. I have a feeling that the withdrawal effect will likely be an amplifying one if that is the case.
What I did (and this worked to a considerable degree, but, not in it's entirety) was to reduce bad carbs (refined sugars) and caffeine. I've still had symptoms of withdrawal, but nowhere near what they would have been if I were consuming those foods on a regular basis. And in fact am still pursuing that dietary avenue as it's proven to be a pretty strong one health-wise. I actually lost weight naturally and without exercising heavy. I can just imagine how healthy and slim I'd be if I were exercising (lol).In any case, it does get better, but, you definitely have to plod through it. And please, I'm hoping that if you have those suicidal thoughts that you're talking to someone, whether it be professional or not, every step of the way if that is the case.
> > Hi guys. Just wanted to add my experience and ask a few questions
> >
> > I have been off mirtazapine for about 3 weeks after taking it quite consistently for about 6 months (15mg daily).
> >
> > I am struggling. I have been suicidal, severe mood swings, some nights I feel so hot, anxious and sickly in my stomach I can't sleep.
> >
> > I want to know, does it get better? I don't know how much longer I can hold out, but I have come this far I don't want to relapse now.
>
> Hi Yata!
>
> Yes, it will get better. But the time required to get better depends on each person. You were on a low dose and a not so long period of time, so the chances of a short recover are good. But “short” may be more than a few weeks. Did you taper off it or just stop?
>
> I have been on mirtazapine for 3.5 years, at 45mg, quit 5 months ago, and am still suffering the withdrawal. But I had a lot of other drugs that are contributing more to my problems.
>
> Everything you are reporting is usual during mirtazapine withdrawal and will wane off with time. Just hang on and, very important, do not take any other drug to overcome the symptoms. Another drug could be another bigger problem later.
>
> What I’m telling you I learned from my own experience and the experience of many others, reported in support forums. Now I am a member of www.benzoisland.org, a very good forum on benzodiazepines (stuff like Valium). Since many benzo users are also on antidepressants, many stories of a/ds (including mirtazapine) are reported there. Another good source for a/ds is www.paxilprogress.org. I was told that there is some information on other a/ds there too, besides paxil. There’s also an excellent book on the dangers of a/ds, “Prozac Backlash”, by Joseph Glenmullen, a clinical instructor in psychiatry at the Harvard Medical School. The subject of the book is SSRIs a/ds (a class that doesn’t include mirtazapine), but mirtazapine is mentioned there as having similar potential for problems.
>
> Just be patient and believe you’ll get better. You are not sick, what you’re feeling is the effect of that crap.
>
> Good luck!
> Bob
Posted by 49er on February 19, 2008, at 15:05:38
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by jimbobwe64 on December 8, 2007, at 10:16:24
Hi,
As one who is tapering Remeron, I am find that the rule to taper 10% of the current dose every 3 to 6 weeks is very applicable. I was making slightly larger cuts with the same time line and paid dearly for it.
Until I receive my digital scale to accurately measure doses, I am not making any more cuts.
Folks, a small percentage of people can cold turkey or taper fast off their meds. But you won't know if you're one of the lucky ones and if you find out you aren't, do you want to take that chance?
I want to get off this poison yesterday. But at the same time, when I do get off, I want to stay off.
Steady and slow wins the race.
49er
Posted by Maritza on February 19, 2008, at 22:08:55
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by 49er on February 19, 2008, at 15:05:38
Let me know how this works out for you. I've been on 7.5 mg for 6months and am afraid of going lower. I'll try another reduction in the summer when I'm not under as much stress. I'm a high school teacher. I like the idea of a digital scale. Keep in touch.
Posted by 49er on March 1, 2008, at 10:24:01
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by Maritza on February 19, 2008, at 22:08:55
> Let me know how this works out for you. I've been on 7.5 mg for 6months and am afraid of going lower. I'll try another reduction in the summer when I'm not under as much stress. I'm a high school teacher. I like the idea of a digital scale. Keep in touch.
Hi,
As one who used to work as a teaching assistant at a special ed school, I definitely understand your reasoning. I held off tapering my meds until I left that job.
My tapering of Remeron was going well until I woke up early this morning and couldn't get back to sleep. But that might have been also due to too much caffeine. Hard to tell.
But so far, so good, knock on wood.
I think when you're ready, as long as you do it very slowly, you should increase your chances of not having major problems.
Good luck.
49er
Posted by Anxiety123 on May 6, 2008, at 15:48:00
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » Maritza, posted by 49er on March 1, 2008, at 10:24:01
Just wondering if anyone out here is still weaning off remeron. I am and have some advice and questions.
Anxiety
Posted by Kangaroo_on_spaghett on June 12, 2008, at 6:16:20
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by Anxiety123 on May 6, 2008, at 15:48:00
Hi,
I stopped Remeron mid May. Now I have no apetite for sweet stuff or carbs and some nausia. I have never ever experienced eating problems before but I am losing weight quite fast now. Is this normal?
Thanks,
Posted by Anxiety123 on June 12, 2008, at 8:55:06
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by Kangaroo_on_spaghett on June 12, 2008, at 6:16:20
I would think a lower appetite would be normal because remeron is an appetite stimulant. I think in a few months or maybe even weeks you should get your normal appetite back (the way you were before remeron). How much were you taking and how long did you wean? Are you feeling well now?
Thanks for responding to my post.
Posted by Kangaroo_on_spaghett on June 12, 2008, at 9:10:42
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by Anxiety123 on June 12, 2008, at 8:55:06
Hi,
I went pretty fast. From 30 to 15 mg in a week and then cold turkey. It was because of a miss understanding with my Dr. We thought she meant go off it and she didn't...what she said was pretty unclear. I was there with a friend and my friend encouraged me that she meant go off it. I was having so many hissies on it that I think my friend is pretty pleased to have me off.
No. Sadly not well but I am expecting my body to come good over the next few months. Depressed and really tired from lack of sleep. I just wasn't expecting the weight loss.
How are you going with yours?
Posted by Leo Brazil on July 24, 2008, at 15:07:08
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by Kangaroo_on_spaghett on June 12, 2008, at 9:10:42
One more story of unsuccessful cold turkeying.
I was taking 7.5mg of Remoron, I mean, Remeron for only two months and tried to go cold turkey. Big mistake! I had terrible insomnia and felt depressed the next day. These antidepressants are just too powerful. We have to take it easy on our brains and wean slowly off these meds. I'll just take 3.25mg until I feel stable and then stop for good.Leo
Posted by brazilnut on July 25, 2008, at 3:30:16
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by Leo Brazil on July 24, 2008, at 15:07:08
> One more story of unsuccessful cold turkeying.
> I was taking 7.5mg of Remoron, I mean, Remeron for only two months and tried to go cold turkey. Big mistake! I had terrible insomnia and felt depressed the next day. These antidepressants are just too powerful. We have to take it easy on our brains and wean slowly off these meds. I'll just take 3.25mg until I feel stable and then stop for good.
>
> LeoLeo,
Maybe cutting half is still too much. The recommended rate is about 10% each 10 days, 5% after arriving at 50% down.
Good luck!
Roberto
Posted by Leo Brazil on July 25, 2008, at 12:21:00
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by brazilnut on July 25, 2008, at 3:30:16
> Maybe cutting half is still too much. The recommended rate is about 10% each 10 days, 5% after arriving at 50% down.
>
> Good luck!
> Roberto
>I think that this method applies to people who has been taking ADs for long a long time. I took Remeron for only two months at a low dosage. I can taper faster than that.
Today I am feeling much better than yesterday. I don't think my withdrawal will be as bad as expected. Lucky me. I just hope my brain goes back to normal as soon as possible.
I was prescribed this med for social phobia. No benefit observed. It only made feel irritable, hungry and sedated. I don't think any med works for social phobia. I've tried many. The only thing that helps is psychotherapy.Leo
Posted by brazilnut on July 25, 2008, at 13:52:47
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by brazilnut on July 25, 2008, at 3:30:16
> > One more story of unsuccessful cold turkeying.
> > I was taking 7.5mg of Remoron, I mean, Remeron for only two months and tried to go cold turkey. Big mistake! I had terrible insomnia and felt depressed the next day. These antidepressants are just too powerful. We have to take it easy on our brains and wean slowly off these meds. I'll just take 3.25mg until I feel stable and then stop for good.
> >
> > LeoWhat I suggested is a guarantee to be on the safe side, but most probably youll have no big problem. I have met people who had bad withdrawal after 6 week Remeron, however.
I agree with you on the effectiveness of psychotherapy for social phobia. The book Prozac Backlash, by Dr. Joseph Glenmullen presents irrefutable scientific data on the subject. See http://www.prozacbacklash.com/.
Im glad youre better today!
Roberto
>
> Leo,
>
> Maybe cutting half is still too much. The recommended rate is about 10% each 10 days, 5% after arriving at 50% down.
>
> Good luck!
> Roberto
>
Posted by Leo Brazil on July 31, 2008, at 6:54:12
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » brazilnut, posted by brazilnut on July 25, 2008, at 13:52:47
Stopped taking the Remeron yesterday. I was taking 3.75mg. Boy, I don't feel good right now. I'm feeling anxious and I can't eat. It's not being easy. I have a lot of bad thoughts going on in my mind, but I just keep telling myself that everything will turn out fine, that it's just some anxiety and it will pass.
Leonardo
Posted by Leo Brazil on July 31, 2008, at 12:21:13
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by Leo Brazil on July 31, 2008, at 6:54:12
Ooops! I think it was too soon to stop. Couldn't handle the anxiety. It was so overwhelming that I started crying. I'll just wait another week at 3.75mg then I'll reduce to about 1.85mg.
I guess patience is the key.Leo
Posted by brazilnut on July 31, 2008, at 14:01:34
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by Leo Brazil on July 31, 2008, at 6:54:12
Hi, Leo!
Hold on, it may take some time but youll be free from this. Sometimes these meds surprise us with bad symptoms later than we expected. I suggest you also not to take any other med - even natural stuff - to alleviate symptoms. I had severe problems with beta-blockers and valerian.
I had no problems with Remeron because I made a very slow taper: from 45mg to zero in two years. But with other meds I was not so patient and now Im paying the bill.
By the way, are you in Brazil?
Roberto
Posted by Leo Brazil on July 31, 2008, at 16:08:01
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » Leo Brazil, posted by brazilnut on July 31, 2008, at 14:01:34
> Hi, Leo!
>
> Hold on, it may take some time but youll be free from this. Sometimes these meds surprise us with bad symptoms later than we expected. I suggest you also not to take any other med - even natural stuff - to alleviate symptoms. I had severe problems with beta-blockers and valerian.
>
> I had no problems with Remeron because I made a very slow taper: from 45mg to zero in two years. But with other meds I was not so patient and now Im paying the bill.
>
> By the way, are you in Brazil?
>
> RobertoYes, I am from Porto Alegre.
I think I can be more patient now because at such a low dosage (3,75mg) Remeron is not bothering me, I guess. But I have another med to wean off: Neurontin 600mg. That's going to be just as tough. I can't wait to be med free.Leo
Posted by brazilnut on July 31, 2008, at 17:42:42
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by Leo Brazil on July 31, 2008, at 16:08:01
Nice to meet you here, Leo! Im from Rio, but living in Curitiba.
Remeron may be a nasty drug, take care. I have no direct experience with Neurontin, but read about it on the Internet and found some mentions in the benzo forum I am. It looks like it can also require caution when weaning off. I suggest you, as well as everybody in this thread, to visit the forum I mentioned, www.benzoisland.org. Its a forum officially dedicated to benzodiazepine withdrawal, but virtually any other addicting med is discussed. There youll find systematic support and a wealth of knowledge about these drugs. It has currently 550 active members and 3,800 members in total. But to join you have to be approved after submitting your story, and sometimes the forum is closed to new members because of the large demand.
I suggest also that we keep posting here in English, but with translation to Portuguese. This way, other Portuguese speaking people could find this thread and exchange information with us.
Roberto
Que bom encontrá-lo aqui, Leo! Eu sou do Rio, morando em Curitiba.Remeron pode ser uma droga perigosa, tome cuidado. Não tenho experiência direta com Neurontin, mas li sobre ela na Internet e achei algumas referências no fórum que freqüento. Parece que ela também requer cuidado na hora de parar. Sugiro a você, assim como a todos nesta lista, visitar o fórum que mencionei, www.benzoisland.org. É um fórum oficialmente dedicado à retirada de benzodiazepinas, mas virtualmente todos os remédios que viciam são discutidos. Lá você encontrará apoio sistemático e extenso conhecimento sobre essas drogas. Ele tem atualmente 550 membros ativos e 3.800 no total. Mas para entrar você deve ser aprovado após submeter sua história, e às vezes o fórum está fechado para novos membros por causa da demanda elevada.
Sugiro ainda que continuemos a escrever em inglês aqui, mas com tradução para o português. Assim, outras pessoas de língua portuguesa poderiam encontrar esta lista e trocar informação conosco.
Posted by johnj on August 4, 2008, at 11:53:09
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » Leo Brazil, posted by brazilnut on July 31, 2008, at 17:42:42
Remeron is quite brutal for some. I am a survivor and it takes lots of time to get off it. I highly suggest you search the archives for remeron and you will find many of us that finally got off this drug. For some, like me, it took lots of time and at times it was hell but in the end it is worth it to be free from it.
regards
johnj
Posted by Anxiety123 on August 4, 2008, at 14:09:27
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » brazilnut, posted by johnj on August 4, 2008, at 11:53:09
John, can you tell me what mgs you were on, how you tapered, how long it took and what w/d symptoms you had.
Thanks.
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