![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 95 to 119 of 488. Go back in thread:
Posted by johnnyj on April 2, 2006, at 22:20:39
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by SLS on April 2, 2006, at 7:21:56
When I started remeron I had severe nausea, weird thoughts, terrible anxiety, but I finall SLEPT.
When I have lowered doses I get nausea, jerking when falling asleep, some anxiety, and I sleep much lighter and shorter. When I went off for a brief time I had HORRIBLE nausea, jerking, and kind of manic feeling. But, I felt better and much more alive.
I had to go on to sleep due to some life events. I will be weaning starting in a few weeks and hopefully off by end of summer or fall.
Posted by musky on April 2, 2006, at 22:59:50
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » jules354, posted by johnnyj on April 2, 2006, at 22:11:09
>
Glad you are managing johnnyAs for mixing the soltab in water, yes i have heard that..
I also read somehere on a site that you can do what they call the orange juice bit.. just dissolve the pill in orange juice(sweeter taste that way, lol) and only drink 9/10 of it.. then do this for a week or two.. then only drink 8/10 of it and so on... until you are done..
As for the drug company .. of course they would be horrible,,, they WANT you to stay on the drug and of course they would tell you to ask your dr. as they work together!!! Its all about money.
Sounds like the pharmacist is right on track with the disolving it..
and as for the drug company telling you that people go cold turkey,, they dont know for sure as they have never followed up on people and of course if you have withdrawls too severe then the dr. just puts you back ON IT and the terrible cycle begins again..keep us posted on your dissolving it trial
Musky
The heavy head is not as bad since I am taking advil. The heavier my head, the worse I feel so I have some relief right now. Around the 21st of April I will lower my dose.
>
> Since I am on 7.5 right now I am not sure what I will do. I am contemplating mixing the soltab in water and taking it that way. The pharmacist thought that was a good idea, but I called Organon and they were horrible on the phone. They didn't suggest breaking the soltabs or mixing them in water. Then, they said just do what the doctor says. They said they didn't know anything about how to withdrawal because in their drug studies people just quit cold turkey and there was no follow up.
Posted by musky on April 2, 2006, at 23:12:22
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » SLS, posted by johnnyj on April 2, 2006, at 22:20:39
Hi all:
my, my wer're getting such a long thread on this remeron,lol
but thats good cause it shows its working this postings and support out there.
I am counting down when i will be completely off the remeron
I am down to the 2mg( i cut so crazily with the pill cutter, lol). and plan to be off in 6 weeks.
I calculated this out by seeing how much med i had left and purposely did NOT renew my rx. nor did i tell my dr. He knows im weaning and is supportive , but i havent bothered to tell him im not renewing his rx. im sure he will figure it out when it never gets filled, ha,haanyways thats when my pills are gone, and I have been mentally preparing myself for this , I have been on the 2mg for 2months now , so I think in 6 more weeks i should be "ready or not" . I have it marked on my calendar and keep looking at it to brainwash myself into doing this no matter what!!!!
sounds completely obsessive doesnt it?? but hey if thats what it takes then so be it.
Im also been regularly exercising to get that in place when i get completely off, and have my acupuncturist waiting in the wings to assist if it gets rough..
Also a TON of other things to help me along,, to increase my chances of winning this battle..
Im getting myself a special little survival pack and it it will be several little "feel good things" All natural and NO MEDS!!!! I have lasted all this time of weaning (almost 2yrs now) without one single ativan,, so I figure that would be my very very last choice if I get panic..
I'll choose acupuncture FIRST for this..
Im slowly getting my supplies over the next 6 weeks before the deadline(ha, ha)Wish me luck
Musky
Posted by SLS on April 3, 2006, at 7:38:27
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » SLS, posted by johnnyj on April 2, 2006, at 22:20:39
> I had to go on to sleep due to some life events. I will be weaning starting in a few weeks and hopefully off by end of summer or fall.
I'm sure you'll get there. I wish you luck just the same.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 3, 2006, at 7:53:07
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » johnnyj, posted by SLS on April 3, 2006, at 7:38:27
I don't know how much this would help, but taking small amounts of Benadryl might relieve some of the withdrawal symptoms of Remeron discontinuation.
Remeron is actually a more potent antihistamine than is Benadryl. My guess is that much of the withdrawal symptoms from Remeron is the result of a histaminergic rebound. Benadryl should act as a cushion if one attemts to discontinue Remeron abruptly.
- Scott
Posted by jules354 on April 3, 2006, at 9:44:02
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by SLS on March 31, 2006, at 9:11:55
Scott,
i've experienced the same w/d effects others listed here...insomnia, flulike symptoms, itchy skin and scalp, mood swings, anxiety, depression. also some loss of appetite, irritability. after 5 weeks everything but the flulike stuff is still present but to a lesser & much less uncomfortable degree.
thanks for the info about benadryl, good to know!
take care,
-jules
Posted by cashy72 on April 3, 2006, at 10:56:02
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » SLS, posted by jules354 on April 3, 2006, at 9:44:02
Hey Guys, just picked up this thread, and read all the posts with interest.. sounds like your all going thro' a tough time...I've suffered from panic attacks, anxiety and stuff for a couple of years and have been on 20mg of lexapro for just over 12mths, and 30mg mirtazapine for 15mths.. Over the last 4-5mths i've been a alot better in myself, and after reading various stuff on the net decided that this can't be right takin' all these drugs and suppressing the way your brain works. 8 weeks ago i cut the dose of lexapro too 10mg, and then 10 days ago missed 2 days in a row just out of forgetfulness more than anything! But i thought this an ideal time too kick the lexapro! The first 5 or 6 days were tough, serious dizzy spells and brain zaps!! but i just stuck it out and toughed it out.. It's been 10 days since my last lexapro, and the last day or two i've been alot better, not as dizzy, and feeling more like myself.
I'm still taking 30mg mirtazapine at bedtime, but in a few weeks i'm gonna kick this med as well. Just going too hit it head on, 15mg for a few weeks, and see how it goes.... when i've accidentally missed a dose of mirtazapine i've experienced the crazy dreams, and insomnia you've all been experiencing!! Ain't lookin forward too that, but I'm definately gonna kick this med stuff, and sort myself out naturally... it just ain't good for ya.... It will be of help too hear how you all are doin' so keep postin'... regards from England.. Cashy72..
Posted by little mommy on April 3, 2006, at 16:44:52
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » jules354, posted by cashy72 on April 3, 2006, at 10:56:02
Hello all. Is it possible to start having withdrawal symptoms a month after stopping remeron? Gradually over the course of these past weeks the anxiety, panic and depression, tremors, nausea, no appetite (far cry from when I was on the remeron and ate everything in sight) has just become almost unbearable. I can't sleep, not well, always waking in a terrible panic, heart pounding. Up until yesterday, I have not been able to cry which can make one feel better. It felt good, for a while, just to bawl my eyes out. I have a doctor appointment tomorrow and I think I want to be referred to a psychiatrist. This is getting to be too much. I can't believe how horrible I feel. Reading all the other posts about this drug has made me open my eyes. I am still on 10 mg of paxil in the morning but it doesn't seem to be kicking in as well. Problem is if I up it I tend to get worse instead of better. Thanks for letting me vent.
Little Mommy
Posted by musky on April 3, 2006, at 23:08:44
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » jules354, posted by cashy72 on April 3, 2006, at 10:56:02
>good for you cashy... keep up the good work. sounds like you are determined .. I think that is what will help us all in the end.. We have to believe in ourselves MORE THAN any drug or anything, and like any addiction, you have to WANT to be off the drug..never mind what others tell you to do.. just trust your inner voice
take care
musky
Hey Guys, just picked up this thread, and read all the posts with interest.. sounds like your all going thro' a tough time...I've suffered from panic attacks, anxiety and stuff for a couple of years and have been on 20mg of lexapro for just over 12mths, and 30mg mirtazapine for 15mths.. Over the last 4-5mths i've been a alot better in myself, and after reading various stuff on the net decided that this can't be right takin' all these drugs and suppressing the way your brain works. 8 weeks ago i cut the dose of lexapro too 10mg, and then 10 days ago missed 2 days in a row just out of forgetfulness more than anything! But i thought this an ideal time too kick the lexapro! The first 5 or 6 days were tough, serious dizzy spells and brain zaps!! but i just stuck it out and toughed it out.. It's been 10 days since my last lexapro, and the last day or two i've been alot better, not as dizzy, and feeling more like myself.
> I'm still taking 30mg mirtazapine at bedtime, but in a few weeks i'm gonna kick this med as well. Just going too hit it head on, 15mg for a few weeks, and see how it goes.... when i've accidentally missed a dose of mirtazapine i've experienced the crazy dreams, and insomnia you've all been experiencing!! Ain't lookin forward too that, but I'm definately gonna kick this med stuff, and sort myself out naturally... it just ain't good for ya.... It will be of help too hear how you all are doin' so keep postin'... regards from England.. Cashy72..
Posted by musky on April 3, 2006, at 23:26:44
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by little mommy on April 3, 2006, at 16:44:52
>
Little Mommy:Yes it sure is possible to get delay w/d symptoms.
When i first weaned off amytriptylene, it wasnt until 3months that i started with w/d symptoms,I mean the first week i had the nausea, but the real mood, anxiety,.depression stuff didnt start until 3months off..i was a mess, ended up on paxil, then to hospital so bad and then on remeron.. it has just numbed me... since then i have wisened up and knew all along i didnt feel me .I wish now i had just stuck it out when i was so upset, but like you couldnt take it anymore and ran to my doctor , He of course put me on the paxil, which made me totally freaked out.I figure i weaned maybe too soon with the amytriptylene and the body was trying to adjust.
Remember it takes weeks and weeks to build up the dose when they first put you on an a/d right? Therefore keep in mind it will take a long time to balance. The key here is to MANAGE somehow your symptoms without drugs if at all possible.
That is the goal I think here from the postings.
at least this is my goal. Remember the first thing your doc will do if you get to see a psyche doctor is that they will tell you to take an a/d!!!! and you will be right back to square one.
You have to really be honest with yourself what you want ... I dont know your history and cannot legally tell you what to do, but alot of our anxiety , depression is in our attitude , not our bodies being unbbalanced,,, sure maybe out of whack but not for the reasons that the dr.s CLAIM it to be... it is all a guessing game for them,,
Not to sound so negative, but try to stay calm ,,, keep telling yourself you will make it and this will pass...even if it feels like HELL at the time.. take one day at a time or even one hour or minute at a time... it helps.
See, when this was all happening to me i didnt have the coping skills i do now. I learnt alot in the last 2yrs with some cognitive therapy, courses on anxiety, panic, etc. and some great acupuncture treatments.. Also i know about the not being able to cry feeling...happened to me too. im just getting some emotions now... since tapering from the Remeron.. and it gives me hope that the real me is still there somewhere..chin up
muskyHello all. Is it possible to start having withdrawal symptoms a month after stopping remeron? Gradually over the course of these past weeks the anxiety, panic and depression, tremors, nausea, no appetite (far cry from when I was on the remeron and ate everything in sight) has just become almost unbearable. I can't sleep, not well, always waking in a terrible panic, heart pounding. Up until yesterday, I have not been able to cry which can make one feel better. It felt good, for a while, just to bawl my eyes out. I have a doctor appointment tomorrow and I think I want to be referred to a psychiatrist. This is getting to be too much. I can't believe how horrible I feel. Reading all the other posts about this drug has made me open my eyes. I am still on 10 mg of paxil in the morning but it doesn't seem to be kicking in as well. Problem is if I up it I tend to get worse instead of better. Thanks for letting me vent.
>
> Little Mommy
Posted by cashy72 on April 4, 2006, at 3:43:24
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 3, 2006, at 23:08:44
hey thanks Musky, your right though, everyone who WANTS too give up these drugs will with a bit of determination, and some support. Once they are out of your system, or on the way out of your system, then exercise, good diet, and positive thinking, plus relaxation and time too yourself, will all help too get you back on track and too enjoy life, and all it has too offer. Instead of being suppressed and dulled by these drugs.. Keep POSITIVE... hows it going for everyone today? CASHY72
Posted by musky on April 5, 2006, at 0:42:41
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by cashy72 on April 4, 2006, at 3:43:24
>
Hey cashy.. not too bad today.. Im counting down the weeks til im completely off the Remeron
ive been weaning ever so slowly which helps, yet Im told the worst can come after completely off the drug.
Im a little worried, about spiralling again, or feeling just out of it like i did when i came off amytriptylene. But I am trying not to anticipate too much. ONe has to be careful not to dwell on this too much.
I have been exercising some and have it pretty reugular now.. so that is in place at least.
I also am putting together a saftey bag of sorts. It includes everything from positive affirmations to distraction items, to things to help with the physical w/d. just over the counter med like advil
Absolutely no rx. drugs!!! I also have a list of phone numbers of contact people i can call who are totally supportive of me going off the Remeron. I have purposefully NOT included any ones number that may tell me to see a doctor or take another a/d if i get too depressed or anxiety.
this is the only way this will work... Total and Absolute brainwashing!
Sorry to ramble and sound crazy with this but I am preparing now while I am still thinking straight. I may never need this safety net, but I am being Safe cause I never ever want to go back to the hospital or on a/d sh*t again!take care
keep us postedMusky
hey thanks Musky, your right though, everyone who WANTS too give up these drugs will with a bit of determination, and some support. Once they are out of your system, or on the way out of your system, then exercise, good diet, and positive thinking, plus relaxation and time too yourself, will all help too get you back on track and too enjoy life, and all it has too offer. Instead of being suppressed and dulled by these drugs.. Keep POSITIVE... hows it going for everyone today? CASHY72
Posted by pinkeetoz on April 5, 2006, at 16:50:12
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 5, 2006, at 0:42:41
Hi guys. Still no remeron for me. STILL WAITING for the Lexapro to kick in. I am having to deal with life on life's terms, its tough. Need the lexapro to help it out. Talk soon, pinkeetoz
Posted by musky on April 6, 2006, at 0:47:57
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by pinkeetoz on April 5, 2006, at 16:50:12
Hi pinkeetoz:
Try not to think that you NEED the lexapro.. thats where we all get stuck here... I think the real key to get drug free is to not believe in the drug... period... I know you may have life issues but we all do and must learn somehow to deal with on our own.. that is what will make us strong.. NOT the drug.. just our mind.
Good luck
musky> Hi guys. Still no remeron for me. STILL WAITING for the Lexapro to kick in. I am having to deal with life on life's terms, its tough. Need the lexapro to help it out. Talk soon, pinkeetoz
Posted by jules354 on April 6, 2006, at 7:06:02
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by pinkeetoz on April 5, 2006, at 16:50:12
Hey everyone,
my mood has been pretty good although my skin & scalp are still itchy and sometimes it's hard to fall asleep. i know my mood might dip again but for the past week or so i've been feeling good.
overall i feel like things are evening out ...i know some of you are really struggling and my heart goes out to you. i like musky's idea of a safety kit stuffed with good stuff, affirmations etc., and a phone tree of supportive friends.
take care,
jules
Posted by SLS on April 6, 2006, at 16:12:42
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by musky on April 6, 2006, at 0:47:57
> Try not to think that you NEED the lexapro.. thats where we all get stuck here...
Mind over matter?
> I think the real key to get drug free is to not believe in the drug... period...
It is wonderful that this approach has worked for you.
> I know you may have life issues but we all do
No one would dispute this.
> and must learn somehow to deal with on our own..
Or with the help of others.
> that is what will make us strong..
> NOT the drug.. just our mind.
The state of the mind is dependent on the state of the brain. Perhaps there is nothing wrong with yours. The same cannot be said for everyone who suffers from MDD.
I believe that a sizeable percentage of people who are clinically depressed need a biological intervention. I believe that this is true as passionately as you believe that it is not. I guess each of us has acquired a bias based on our own personal experiences.
Not all depressions are biological. Not all depressions are psychological. I try not to speak for everyone.
- Scott
Posted by pinkeetoz on April 7, 2006, at 11:44:16
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by SLS on April 6, 2006, at 16:12:42
Thanks for the post guys. Jules, glad you're doing better. I am starting to believe that the klonopin, although it works well for anxiety and really got me through a horrible time is causing more depression. Could that be? Although, now, I can't do without it, what a mess, sry not being too positive this morning. Thanks for keeping in touch with me, pinkeetoz
Posted by SLS on April 7, 2006, at 16:38:50
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by pinkeetoz on April 7, 2006, at 11:44:16
> Thanks for the post guys. Jules, glad you're doing better. I am starting to believe that the klonopin, although it works well for anxiety and really got me through a horrible time is causing more depression. Could that be?
Yes.
Many people have found Klonopin to be depressogenic. It is a common complaint seen on the main Psycho-Babble board.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by jules354 on April 7, 2006, at 21:19:13
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » jules354, posted by cashy72 on April 3, 2006, at 10:56:02
cashy72,
my advice is to be careful going off these meds...go as slowly as you can stand to take good care of yourself around the withdrawal effects.
good luck,
jules
Posted by jules354 on April 7, 2006, at 21:21:10
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by pinkeetoz on April 7, 2006, at 11:44:16
hang in there. i'm thinking good thoughts for you. stay in touch about how it's going.
take care,
jules
Posted by cashy72 on April 8, 2006, at 4:24:20
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates? » pinkeetoz, posted by jules354 on April 7, 2006, at 21:21:10
Hey Thanx Jules. Im feeling no more dizzy spells, and head shocks now after being off Lexapro for 14 days now. Pretty much back too full power!! Still takin' 30mg of mirtazapine, and think i'll give it a week or two before slowly tapering off over a few months or so. I hope your all feeling good this weekend, and keep smilin'!! Hang in there. Cheers for now.
Cashy72.
Posted by jules354 on April 11, 2006, at 7:30:11
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by cashy72 on April 8, 2006, at 4:24:20
hey everyone,
just wanted to see how folks are doing. my mood has been dipping again but i'm not sure if it's the w/d or just life's triggers.
take care,
jules
Posted by cashy72 on April 11, 2006, at 8:05:48
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by jules354 on April 11, 2006, at 7:30:11
Hey Jules, yeah i've been feeling abit low the last day or two? Not sure if it's just how things are, or what? Might hit the gym later and try and pick myself up! Mind you the weather at the mo ain't helping things!
Still off the lexapro. 18 days now, so far so good... Still taking 30mg mirtazpine at nighttime... shall see how it goes the next few weeks.... Keep Smilin',
Cashy72.
Posted by musky on April 12, 2006, at 1:36:32
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by SLS on April 6, 2006, at 16:12:42
> >Thanks for your comments Scott
Firstly what is MDD? and the state of the brain and the state of the mind are one in the same i think.. When you say state of the brain(in what context).. because they havent specifically come out and said... chemical"X" is for sure 100% responsible for depression..
Remember too that when they say one has clinical depression , that just means you fit the little flow chart that the doctor goes by.. Im sure if you were to give the survey to the next 100 people on the street ,, that every other one would come out as clinically depressed according to "some" questionare...
I think MAJORITY of people can be helped with out meds, and that less than 1% of the population has an actual organic disease of the brain(your psychotic killer, or maybe schizophrenia, which that even is still up for debate).where they have to be treated by meds..
Because when you really look out thee so many people are now prescibed meds for so many ailments from isomnia to pain to dermatitis and are given a/d for this?? this doesnt make sense as now we have drugs that are affecting the serontonin(supposedly) that now have a use for everything??? When they say they are SELECTIVE serontoin reuptake inhibitors, where is all this SELECTIVITY now when they prescribe it all over for so many DIVERSE things.
But again... if the so called clinical depression theory is true and needs biological intervention , I look at it this way... biological intervention doesnt necessarily mean drugs... They have never proven that there is a DIRECT correllation with a/d and effect on SPECIFIC chemicals in the brain resulting in a DIRECT effect on mood.
It has been proven however with cognitive behavioral therapy (much proven clinical trials) which is just changing the way you think(voluntarily), can have a drastic effect on mood . and is much more effective for mood disorders , etc, than medication. For example just think of when you are excited about something or suddenly scared... just by thinking this you can directly affect the body's physiological response ... ie the adrenaline that is released when we are scared, etc. It has been shown countless times that simple meditation (just controlling ones thoughts) can directly affect ones heartrate etc.. so to me that is proof and i have personally been able to get myself out of a panic or anxiety attack by simply THINKING differently.
I dont believe that MOOD cannot be controlled by the mind.. one just has to believe it.. We CHOOSE how we think,, I dont think that it is the other way around and we have no choice because of some biological response,,
Not to say that imbalances such as poor diet etc, yes all contribute to the mood, but the root cause of our emotions are our thoughts and attitudes.. everything else is just parts of the system.
Im hope im not sounding confusing.
I am trying not to be biased , based on my own personal experience, however there are many many others who will agree with this theory and the very fact that so many are trying to kick the a/d world says something.
Again if A/d are so helpful ... I ask how come so many are still depressed and anxious..I believe the war against mood disorders etc. is being fought with the wrong tools..
If one believes they are mentally depressed they will be... if one believes they are a vicim of depression, they will be.. I choose to NOT be on my a/d .. I have been struggling with this and if there are other ways to be happy , which i believe there are.. then i will take the chance
sorry to ramble
you must believe in your way too I guess.. but for me Im not suffering from side effects just to try to balance the mood.. I never took drugs before this time and managed all my life without so why would i need to now.. I think its just someones theory and I became a guinea pig..
Good luck to you with your struggle..
I know what im doing....Musky
Try not to think that you NEED the lexapro.. thats where we all get stuck here...
>
> Mind over matter?
>
> > I think the real key to get drug free is to not believe in the drug... period...
>
> It is wonderful that this approach has worked for you.
>
> > I know you may have life issues but we all do
>
> No one would dispute this.
>
> > and must learn somehow to deal with on our own..
>
> Or with the help of others.
>
> > that is what will make us strong..
>
> > NOT the drug.. just our mind.
>
> The state of the mind is dependent on the state of the brain. Perhaps there is nothing wrong with yours. The same cannot be said for everyone who suffers from MDD.
>
> I believe that a sizeable percentage of people who are clinically depressed need a biological intervention. I believe that this is true as passionately as you believe that it is not. I guess each of us has acquired a bias based on our own personal experiences.
>
> Not all depressions are biological. Not all depressions are psychological. I try not to speak for everyone.
>
>
> - Scott
>
Posted by musky on April 12, 2006, at 1:44:46
In reply to Re: mirtazapine/remeron updates?, posted by jules354 on April 11, 2006, at 7:30:11
> Hey there all
Good to hear some of you are feeling better
myself i too have had some mood dips, but I am just hangin on.. some days im scared, but then other days i am determined to kick this remeronI am continuing to build up my little safety pack of things to carry me through.
I still feel and believe that meds is not the way.
i cannot speak for others , but it looks like alot of yu do feel the samemy itchy scalp has been greatly improved for now about 3 weeks.. I bothered me for months during the first half of tapering... now just my eyes get itchy off and on or i get this strange rash. it comes and goes now , where before it was always present(when first tapering).
I have been under a little more stress and have felt a bit overwhelmed, dont know if its withdrawls or just my attitude.. I think its my w/d.
kinda down today,, but hey it has passed beforemusky
hey everyone,
>
> just wanted to see how folks are doing. my mood has been dipping again but i'm not sure if it's the w/d or just life's triggers.
>
> take care,
> jules
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Withdrawal | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.