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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 10:05:24
In reply to just trying to understand..., posted by rainbowbrite on May 12, 2005, at 9:19:18
"maintenance drinking" ???
That would imply maintaining a specific "high", wouldn't it???
Or could you be asking if someone is an alcoholic if they binge drink sometimes and can take it or leave it at other times?
(Good questions, by the way... though I'm just as interested in hearing some answers! I know that I don't know... I'm pretty naive about substance use)
Posted by partlycloudy on May 12, 2005, at 10:31:27
In reply to just trying to understand..., posted by rainbowbrite on May 12, 2005, at 9:19:18
Personally, I can say that I have never been successful at drinking in moderation. It's like some internal switch is set in place to "MORE, PLEASE".
And good intentions are not enough, nor is willpower. This beast is a bad *ss enemy as far as I'm concerned. I'm OK around the stuff, but can't fall into a false idea that I can have Just One Drink, be happy with that, and walk away. It just plain has never happened with me that way.There are programs that advocate learning how to drink in moderation (which I've never tried). I don't know how successful they are.
pc
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 12, 2005, at 11:32:42
In reply to Re: just trying to understand..., posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 10:05:24
well, what I am wondering is if a really bad alcoholic who is rarely sober actually could be drinking at the times they appear more sober. There are 3 different behaviors I see, full blown drunk, 'normal' and then an in between. I am so naive as well to addiction and I just find it hard to imagine that they could do this at all even for a few days...so Im puzzled. Unless there are other substances involved, and I guess that is a possibility.
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 12, 2005, at 11:35:12
In reply to Re: just trying to understand... » rainbowbrite, posted by partlycloudy on May 12, 2005, at 10:31:27
Yeah that is what I am suspecting...it is difficult to drink a little to get through the day when the usual is full blown drinking. Probably another substance is involved. I imagine one drink would throw the cycle off.
Posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 11:45:33
In reply to Re: just trying to understand... » partlycloudy, posted by rainbowbrite on May 12, 2005, at 11:35:12
three years ago, I had to put my ex-husband into a rehab... turned out he was drinking all night and then countering the effects with prescription drugs during the day...
I didn't even know that he was that bad (I didn't live with him anymore), but his brother and the neighbors of his late parents were apparently getting drunk phone calls at all hours of the night which led to the intervention. I got none of these calls as the calls I received were during the day and they were "normal"- though I found him very annoying (not unusual after divorce when you share a child!).
So, yes, I would say that alcoholics have many ways to hide their drinking and may appear sober at times...
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 12, 2005, at 11:54:36
In reply to Re: just trying to understand..., posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 11:45:33
Very Interesting!!! Do you have any idea what he was taking? I have suspected as much.
That must have been so hard on you. How long were you together?
Posted by Phil on May 12, 2005, at 13:15:34
In reply to just trying to understand..., posted by rainbowbrite on May 12, 2005, at 9:19:18
Most alcoholics drink a lot of booze but you don't have to drink a lot to be an alcoholic. It's how you handle the drinking and what it represents to you. Like the doc said a while back - it's the 'ism' that gets you.
Having grown up around a full blown alcoholic, I know there's no way in hell she could come anywhere near control. The vast majority will never be able to turn back the clock.
Posted by just so sad on May 12, 2005, at 13:29:22
In reply to Re: just trying to understand..., posted by Phil on May 12, 2005, at 13:15:34
There are counselling groups that say you can recover from being an alcoholic, while AA says you are always recovering. IMO, I think if you have a certain predelection (sp?) to alcoholism, even a small amount will trigger a need, but someone who is not aloholic can drink for a week (say on vacation) and not think about it at all when they return to normal activities. I could abstain when necessary (working, tending kids, driving, volunteering, etc.) but whenever I was off-duty, out would come the bottle. And prior to this last month (where I have been doing well by not drinking alone) I would actually take little airplane bottles of alcohol in my travel bag so I could splash vodka in my OJ while visiting the in-laws, #1 so they wouldn't know how much I drank, and #2, so I could get through the visit without exploding. Rambling again. Sorry. Hope this gives you some insight.
Posted by PM80 on May 12, 2005, at 13:36:55
In reply to just trying to understand..., posted by rainbowbrite on May 12, 2005, at 9:19:18
two thoughts:
If you can cut back at least sometimes - that's good, do it. It is certainly better than always drinking a lot both physically and just in general for your life. Maybe try doing something different on nights when you cut back to break your regular schedule. Go out somewhere (not a bar, not a party) so that you are not really even thinking that you are missing out on something. I.e. if you go to a movie, you will probably not be thinking about "not getting drunk right now" while you are watching the movie.
Perhaps you have an underlying mood disorder and would benefit from psychiatric meds. For me, taking medication has had a significant impact on my urge to drink. I almost wouldn't have believed it if I didn't experience it myself. I still do drink sometimes and get drunk, but not like before. If you are on meds, maybe you could discuss this with your pdoc.
Posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 13:47:28
In reply to Re: just trying to understand..., posted by PM80 on May 12, 2005, at 13:36:55
I'm no longer sure that I remember ANYTHING right these days (for some reason, the anxiety level is affecting my memory...)
but I THINK it was Xanax....I could be WAY off base, here, though...
Posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 13:52:37
In reply to Re: just trying to understand... » sunny10, posted by rainbowbrite on May 12, 2005, at 11:54:36
oops, and to answer your other question, we had already been divorced many years (five, maybe?) before we had to stick him in rehab...
He is a Narcissist who never got over the fact that I left him- then his father died, then his mother died. By the time his mom had been dead for a couple of months (and he never had cut himself from her apronstrings), he was a mess. Oh, yeah, and he had lost his job, too... Oh, yeah, and his brother overdosed and died (maybe accidently, maybe not) on the leftover morphine he stole from the house when he had come home for their mother's funeral...
And all the while he was feeding himself the most powerful depressant there is... alcohol. And he wondered why he "couldn't get out of this depression" and was put on blood pressure meds and AD's...
He was definitely in a bad way all the way around...
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 12, 2005, at 15:16:08
In reply to Re: just trying to understand..., posted by sunny10 on May 12, 2005, at 13:52:37
Posted by TamaraJ on May 12, 2005, at 17:02:52
In reply to just trying to understand..., posted by rainbowbrite on May 12, 2005, at 9:19:18
Alcoholism is a double-edged sword - it is not just a physical addiction, it is also a psychological addiction - an obsession. Most alcoholics, at some point I am sure, have tried to control their drinking - abstaining for weeks or months; not drinking during the week; etc. To me, that is the difference between someone who is not a problem drinker and one who is - someone who doesn't have a problem does not have to think about controlling their drinking and isn't obsessing about when they are going to be able to drink next. An alcoholic, like any other addict, thinks about that next one - when, where, why. It has been said that for an alcoholic one drink is too many, and twenty is never enough. Once that first drink goes down, the alcoholic can't get enough. That is so true.
Tamara
Posted by Slinky on May 12, 2005, at 18:08:04
In reply to Re: just trying to understand... » rainbowbrite, posted by TamaraJ on May 12, 2005, at 17:02:52
After 7 years the craving still rapes my brain.
Starting or stopping some meds cause a craving a need for some fix..that I battle with.
I binged every 3 days for over 15 years so does that mean I'm was an alcholic ? also drank when on psychiatric drungs..I'm amazed my liver still is a friend.
Today I drank soft ginger beer that said on the bottle less than0.5 % alchohol...I got paranoid about it
I smoke like a chimney my last major fix was coffee.
Now it's these energy drinks
I rarely feel satisfied..is this the booze that damaged my brain/or was I ill to begin with.
My brains so frukked up I can't work it out.
Sorry to go on tangent but lately I feel that itch to drink but I'm not going to lose whats left of my soul.My boyfriend is a recoverying alcholoic..spent months in hospital nearly died twice but AA really helps him now...but like myself still has cravings/the itch and fixated on things.
Need to get that out
Slinky
Posted by Phil on May 12, 2005, at 18:17:49
In reply to Re: just trying to understand... » rainbowbrite, posted by TamaraJ on May 12, 2005, at 17:02:52
Posted by sunny10 on May 13, 2005, at 9:28:49
In reply to Re: just trying to understand..., posted by Slinky on May 12, 2005, at 18:08:04
be strong, Slinky. You know you can.
Why don't you plan something for you and boyfriend to do this weekend... something silly like rollerskating or something like that (oops, I said rollerskating was silly.... showing my age a bit, here...)?
Someone was saying that they replaced their chemical highs with adrenaline highs from working out at the gym (my memory stinks, but I think it was broken over on Writing)- but anything that seems silly or fun can jump start the adrenal glands...
Whatever works for you. You're a strong one- I have lurked many a post you've written, but you always say it all- I never have anything to add!!!
Good to "meet" you!
-sunny10
Posted by TamaraJ on May 13, 2005, at 12:45:44
In reply to Re: Well said Tamara (nm), posted by Phil on May 12, 2005, at 18:17:49
Posted by TamaraJ on May 13, 2005, at 16:06:06
In reply to just trying to understand..., posted by rainbowbrite on May 12, 2005, at 9:19:18
I just wanted to share a couple of excerpts by AA members from an AA book called Daily Reflections, which gets to the heart of alcoholism:
TOTAL ACCEPTANCE
"He cannot picture life without alcohol. Some day he will be unable to imagine life either with alcohol or without it. Then he will know loneliness such as few do. He will be at the jumping-off place. He will wish for the end."
"Only an alcoholic can understand the exact meaning of a statement like this one. The double standard that help me captive as an active alcoholic also filled me with terror and confusion: "If I don't get a drink I'm going to die," competed with "If I continue drinking it's going to kill me." Both compulsive thoughts pushed me ever closer to the bottom. That bottom produced a total acceptance of my alcoholism - with no reservation whatsoever - and one that was absolutely essential for my recovery. It was a dilemma unlike anything I had ever faced, but as I found out later on, a necessary one if I was to succeed in this program."
WOULD A DRINK HELP?
"By going back in our own drinking histories, we could show that years before we realized it we were out of control, that our drinking even then was no mere habit, that it was indeed the beginning of a fatal progression."
"When I was still drinking, I couldn't respond to any of life's situations the way other, more healthy, people could. The smallest incident triggered a state of mind that believed I had to have a drink to numb my feelings. But the numbing did not improve the situation, so I sought further escape in the bottle. Today I must be aware of my alcoholism. I cannot afford to believe that I have gained control of my drinking - or again I will think I have gained control of my life. Such a feeling of control is fatal to my recovery."
Posted by Slinky on May 13, 2005, at 21:28:41
In reply to Re: just trying to understand... » Slinky, posted by sunny10 on May 13, 2005, at 9:28:49
Good to meet you too Sunny,
It's so true about excercise..I keep attempting this trampette thing.
I almost bought some roller skates but I'm a bit self conscious -the kids will laugh at me..I'm 38.
I rarely see my boyfriend..and believe me he wouldn't excercise : )
To see him rollerskate would lift my misery for a while..he's 54 and overweight..
My passion is water I'd love to swim..if I had my own pool my mood disorder would be controlled..I'm sure of it.For me it's all 'ifs'
I have to watch myself I'm prone to walking outside but in the middle of the night..to stop this mental itch.Slinky
Posted by Declan on May 14, 2005, at 18:25:31
In reply to Re: just trying to understand..., posted by just so sad on May 12, 2005, at 13:29:22
There'd be a lot of Europeans who drink a fair bit, but spread it out over the whole day, but then its part of their culture etc. Certainly not like that here.
Declan
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 14, 2005, at 22:05:45
In reply to Re: just trying to understand..., posted by Declan on May 14, 2005, at 18:25:31
Thanks everyone! I am trying so hard to understand addictions so i can be of some help but it really sounds like threre isn't much that can be done. it seems like the person going through it is the key. Is it wrong of me to criticize this persons use? Is it more harmful than helpful to pretend it doesnt exist or that we believe them that it isn't happening and we dont notice the smell(we know) or should I be very open about it and confrontational?
one last question...is it normal to go thorugh detoxs on a regular basis (I know it is very dangerous...but)??
Thanks so much!
Posted by TamaraJ on May 15, 2005, at 13:15:00
In reply to Re: just trying to understand..., posted by rainbowbrite on May 14, 2005, at 22:05:45
It's hard for anyone who is on the outside looking in. It is not wrong of you, IMO, to criticize the person's using and express concern. Unfortunately, more often than not, the criticism and concern just falls on deaf ears. Most alcoholics and addicts are pretty good at rationalizing their use as well as playing the victim. And, one person trying to get someone to stop often isn't enough. There are usually enablers in the person's life who won't or can't take a hard line with the person and will always be there to pick up the pieces. The sad truth is that many alcoholics/addicts won't stop using and get help until they hit bottom, which could include their enablers turning their backs on the person.
I don't know much about the effects of multiple detoxes, but I would think that it would be very hard on a person's system.
Tamara
> Thanks everyone! I am trying so hard to understand addictions so i can be of some help but it really sounds like threre isn't much that can be done. it seems like the person going through it is the key. Is it wrong of me to criticize this persons use? Is it more harmful than helpful to pretend it doesnt exist or that we believe them that it isn't happening and we dont notice the smell(we know) or should I be very open about it and confrontational?
> one last question...is it normal to go thorugh detoxs on a regular basis (I know it is very dangerous...but)??
> Thanks so much!
Posted by rainbowbrite on May 16, 2005, at 10:55:38
In reply to Re: just trying to understand... » rainbowbrite, posted by TamaraJ on May 15, 2005, at 13:15:00
Thanks, its so hard to know what to do or not to do.
Posted by sunny10 on May 17, 2005, at 10:19:27
In reply to Re: just trying to understand... » sunny10, posted by Slinky on May 13, 2005, at 21:28:41
Can you join the local YMCA for the pool privileges?
Posted by AuntieMel on May 17, 2005, at 11:54:52
In reply to Re: just trying to understand..., posted by rainbowbrite on May 14, 2005, at 22:05:45
I'm not sure how close you are to this person or how far you can take this.....
The first thing to go in addiction is honesty. So anything you can do get the person to be honest with him/her self will help.
If you are close enough and can - you could have a direct (but kind) talk that goes like:
I know you are drinking. And I know you are not ready to stop. I will make a deal with you - I will not nag you about your drinking if you will not lie to me about it. I want the topic to be open, like the weather, not hidden.
Then stick to it. But you are allowed to insist a person not drive, for example, and calmly give a reminder of work the next day }as long as you only say it once.}
With me confrontaion was the least useful strategy. It did nothing but make me more stubborn and try harder to hide it.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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