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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 43 to 67 of 116. Go back in thread:
Posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 18:53:18
In reply to He's not dying » Twinleaf, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 10, 2014, at 18:01:44
There's nothing worse than just a tiny amount of information!
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 10, 2014, at 19:28:32
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 18:53:18
I'm actually surprisingly buoyant. Don't ask me why. Something about the way she answered allowed me to create an entire believable scenario that suits my mind quite well. Even if I've made it entirely up, it makes me feel less rejected. Even if I think it's unforgivable not to make "not dying" clear from the start.
Or maybe I'm just glad he's not dying and is probably not grievously ill, not physically or terminally at least. He may be flawed as a therapist-mommy, but I didn't want to think he was dying. He may have hurt me over and over again, but I do dearly love him.
This might be the giddy relief to hear he's not dying, and I may feel bitter in an hour or two. I seriously doubt I'll ever hear from him to schedule another session. No matter what, I've lost a relationship that meant a lot to me. That's something I'll probably grieve for a very long time.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 10, 2014, at 19:38:28
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 18:53:18
I meant to ask. It sounds as if you too are heading towards a parting. Was it your idea?
Posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 21:15:31
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Twinleaf, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 10, 2014, at 19:38:28
Yes. He's retiring. But, truthfully, I think I was getting towards the end of the therapy. Things were generally more stable and calm, the depression either absent or at most mild, and he wasn't so very important to me emotionally any longer. I feel I got a lot out of it, but still, it does feel like a terrible loss. One just never wants these relationships to end!
Overall, we are definitely doing OK - the actual ending time is June. What will I ever write to Babble afterwards??,
Posted by Willful on March 11, 2014, at 9:51:59
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 21:15:31
Deep relationships don't seem as if they should end-- not arbitrarily because you're 'better'-- why should they really? it seems so irrelevant to anything except the fact that it's a business relationship at one level-- so of course, they have achieved their "purpose". IT's all so artificial-- the one thing that isn't is the relationship and whatever you learn and however you grow.
But I suppose these traditions have a strong hold.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2014, at 9:56:32
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Twinleaf, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 10, 2014, at 19:28:32
Hi, everyone,
Dinah, I'm glad Babble is still here for you. (I am, too.)
Anger and hurt is one thing. Feeling negligible is another. I'm reminded of when I went AWOL here. Maybe even more disturbing than hearing from an impersonal note was not hearing anything.
Bob
--
> Obviously something is very wrong with someone I care about a lot, but I don't know what.
>
> I think I'm just finished, and am determined not to care about anyone ever again outside my immediate family.
>
> Dinah> I can't imagine anything more disturbing that hearing from an impersonal note that my therapist, whom I have seen for many years, and who is one of the most trusted people in my life has suddenly, inexplicably and possibly disastrously disappeared.
>
> Willful> I wanted to talk with people who would understand
>
> It just isn't worth it. I wish I could do the last twenty years over again.
>
> Dinah> I feel like I did when Daddy died. As if I'm breathing out pain.
>
> Dinah> The simple truth is that I mean no more to him than client #2182. ... I am destined to care more than I am cared for.
>
> Dinah> We all missed you, Dinah.
>
> Partlycloudy> Thank you, everyone. I knew you would understand.
>
> Dinah> Dinah, I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive him a little after time.
>
> It will be better for your heart if you do-- bitterness is something I've experienced and it takes a lot of work to undo it once you've fallen into it-- I'm working on it myself and it does have a strong hold-- so try not to let it take over-- You're a fighter and you can be strong and loving enough to see through the incredibly disappointing and failed therapist to the person beneath-- We don;t know about his life, his childhood, the failings of maturation or growth that have left him so vulnerable to fear-- and so prone to running away-- leaving others to cope alone.
>
> But whatever it is, he's human, all too human-- and deserves compassion most when he's done so wrongly-- I'm sure in his heart he knows-- that you deserved better.
>
> Willful> Just because someone isn't part of your personal life doesn't mean you should treat them as negligible.
>
> Dinah> If it's eventually possible to go back, and you give it a try, you might still find the therapist you liked and connected with. Anger and hurt doesn't last forever. It would be wonderful to be able to leave, taking the good things with you.
>
> Twinleaf> Something about the way she answered allowed me to create an entire believable scenario that suits my mind quite well. Even if I've made it entirely up, it makes me feel less rejected.
>
> He may be flawed as a therapist-mommy, but I didn't want to think he was dying. He may have hurt me over and over again, but I do dearly love him.
>
> This might be the giddy relief to hear he's not dying, and I may feel bitter in an hour or two. I seriously doubt I'll ever hear from him to schedule another session. No matter what, I've lost a relationship that meant a lot to me. That's something I'll probably grieve for a very long time.
>
> Dinah
Posted by Twinleaf on March 11, 2014, at 14:42:46
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 10, 2014, at 21:15:31
Dinah, if he is able to return to his practice, I can't imagine that he would not contact you. If he didn't, that would truly be abysmal behavior on his part after a 20-year therapeutic relationship.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:30:13
In reply to Re: He's not dying, posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2014, at 9:56:32
> Anger and hurt is one thing. Feeling negligible is another. I'm reminded of when I went AWOL here. Maybe even more disturbing than hearing from an impersonal note was not hearing anything.
>
> BobI think I tolerated your absence a lot more than I tolerated having you come back and be a different person with different values, and ones that don't match mine at that. As much as you exasperated me at times, you at least were fairly predictable.
Tho admittedly, negligible is a feeling that is not infrequent in my life.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:35:52
In reply to Re: He's not dying Dinah, posted by Twinleaf on March 11, 2014, at 14:42:46
*If* he returns to his practice, I daresay he will call. And I would go back at least once to say goodbye.
But if what I theorize happened is what actually happened, I think the chances are not good. Not that I have any really better reason to believe my current theory than my former fears. But they aren't quite as hurtful, so I'm going with them.
I'd like to think that he would know that as long as he didn't reject me, I wouldn't really reject him no matter what's going on in his life. Self preservation would be the main thing to make me hate him. But he might not realize that.
Oh well. I have at least four months, probably much longer, before I figure out if I need to try to email him to let him know that I'd like to schedule an appointment when he's able.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:43:46
In reply to Re: He's not dying, posted by Willful on March 11, 2014, at 9:51:59
But if a relationship can end that easily, is it actually a real relationship? I struggle with that. I really do. People can drift apart or move apart, but that just means they don't see each other often. I retain my good feelings about high school friends. Some I contact now and then. I'm considering facebook to see if I can keep in touch with what's going on with them. Other more casual friends are still very welcome when I happen to run into them.
The relationship doesn't just cut off entirely. There isn't the sense that we're never supposed to contact each other.
How can that really be a real caring relationship?
I veer between just being happy he's not dying, to being shocked that I can't contact him and tell him how happy I am that he's not dying. One moment he seems like someone who was part of my life a long time ago. The next minute I'm shaking and trying not to howl at the unfairness. One moment I'm feeling sorry for him, the next I am just totally baffled as to how this could happen.
It's more complicated, somehow, than traditional mourning.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:49:17
In reply to Re: He's not dying, posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2014, at 9:56:32
If you're actually here for me, can you possibly explain to me how this could happen? How can someone who loved me as a therapy-daughter let this happen? Even if he isn't able to contact me, isn't it possible for him to have someone else contact me for him?
Is it just because I'm no longer useful to him? Does caring depend on usefulness?
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:51:28
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:49:17
Even if it's beyond his control, it hurts so much.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 6:57:58
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:49:17
I suppose I have no confidence that people on the other side can understand.
Posted by SLS on March 12, 2014, at 7:08:54
In reply to It hurts so much, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:51:28
> Even if it's beyond his control, it hurts so much.
I think you should expect to grieve as much for the loss of your T as you would for the loss of a parent. Regardless of the reasons why your T is no longer available, his loss will leave you with a hole in your life.
If I were in your situation, I would act under the premise that your T is gone. I would allow myself to cry and grieve. Usually, things get better as time passes, as long as you process the loss rather than deny it.
It hurts so much.
It will not stop hurting all at once.
In my opinion, given what little I know about you, you are strong enough to get through this, and will become even stronger because of it.
Good luck.
- Scott
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 10:34:49
In reply to Re: It hurts so much » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by SLS on March 12, 2014, at 7:08:54
Thanks, Scott. That's actually how I feel about it. That it is like losing a parent - maybe worse, depending on the parent.
Losing a parent by having them just disappear, in a way that seems to be uncaring and a way that's mysterious, is even worse tho.
I got a call from the referral therapist, and I think there's a chance I could find out more. Just finding out that it was truly beyond his control to do what he did to me would help a lot. But I suppose that's not necessarily what I'll find.
At least he's not dying. Even though dying would definitely be something beyond his control. I guess I would rather have him reject me than die. That's a bit of a relief, really, to recognize that there are limits to my selfishness.
I wish I had a somewhat stronger therapist-mommy. But perhaps one like that might not have suited me so well. I always did think his finest quality was his ability to bend. To recognize that he might be wrong, and that adjustments might need to be made. To explore what being on the other side of the couch can mean at least for some people. His very humanity made therapy work in a way it likely wouldn't have with a perfect therapist. I would hurt myself bouncing off their armor of perfect professionalism and run off long ago. The first time in therapy that I had any feeling of safety whatsoever is when he yelled at me for the first time. Well, maybe not yelled. Exclaimed. "I just can't deal with dependent women!" I realized that what I was sensing was real, and that he would admit it but keep trying anyway. That he would be honest with me. That was likely the true start of our therapy and certainly representative of what kept me fighting to relationship with him when it would have been easier to just revert to being a suburban hermit.
I wish I truly did have enough confidence in our relationship to believe he would go out of his way not to hurt me. At least during Katrina, he told me on the phone, and let me cry and argue.
But I don't think it's in my nature to be that trusting in anyone's caring. Not even after twenty years of usually proving it, even with the occasional spectacular failure.
Let's see. My father gave up a profession he loved for one he hated and stayed with my mother for my sake (not that he ever ever said that). I may feel guilty for ruining his life, but there's no doubt of his love for me. Probably my husband, who has stuck to me through thick and thin. I usually am not even sure he likes me or approves of me. But I can trust him not to reject me despite my flaws. And maybe some of my dogs - by no means all. Other than that, there's a very thin layer covering massive fears and expectations of rejection.
There are very few excuses for what he's done that would not hurt me to the bone and shake my faith in my ability to be worthy of love. I had mentally come to one that seemed to fit the facts and circumstances. Although I easily lose faith in it and start obsessive and fruitlessly repetitive google searches to try to find out what's wrong. As I did half of last night. Whatever happened to lack of privacy in the digital age?
I hope whatever I find out is at least as good as my hopeful conclusion. And that it's not just a lure to draw me into therapy so that I can process this loss, while leaving the why's to every single person involved in the therapy profession (outside his clients) who takes the effort to find out.
I think I'm better processing it here, where so many know my history with him. It was enormously helpful to have this put in context with the overall pattern of our relationship. In other words, it's not necessarily that he doesn't care. It's just that he totally loses his head under stress. Whenever he's hurt me or done things that make me disapprove of him, it's been under times of extreme pressure.
I can feel pity for that, I suppose, to mix with the hurt.
Although it would have been damn nice for him to lose his head a bit more personally.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 10:38:26
In reply to Re: It hurts so much » SLS, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 10:34:49
I'm just glad it didn't happen at a time when I may well have tried to kill myself over his loss.
It was my plan at one time.
Posted by Twinleaf on March 12, 2014, at 16:21:18
In reply to Re: It hurts so much, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 10:38:26
From what I have seen over the years, he deals with personal stress MUCH less well than you do. It seems as though every consideration for others temporarily goes out the window altogether. It doesn't seem as though he's cold or uncaring, but rather that, for a time, no-one exists for him emotionally (not even his wife). But once he's back to his usual self, and the stress is over for the time being, he is real and flexible in ways that are valuable.
What an unusual trait for a therapist to have to such an extreme extent!
Posted by baseball55 on March 12, 2014, at 19:46:32
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Willful, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:43:46
Do you have his home address? (or maybe the office address would do since he's probably having mail forwarded.) Maybe you could send him a card and kind note. That, at least, might make you feel better.
A while back, my p-doc had an accident that kept him out for several weeks. I sent him a card and a book to read that I knew he would enjoy (we like the same kind of books). It made me feel better - like at least I was handling the situation constructively, even though a part of me was really bereft - that I wasn't part of his life and in the loop about his well-being.
Posted by Poet on March 12, 2014, at 20:30:36
In reply to It hurts so much, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:51:28
Hi Dinah,
Yes, it hurts and you are between the rock and the hard place. I wish he had just sent a personal email, not a generic one. You deserve personal contact after devoting 20 years of your life to this relationship. I guess it's kind of like a one sided divorce and that's going to hurt the innocent party. I think you're stronger than you realize, allow yourself time to grieve, and keep in mind this situation was not caused by you.
Another cyber slap to his head.
Poet
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 13, 2014, at 3:07:56
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 12, 2014, at 0:49:17
> If you're actually here for me, can you possibly explain to me how this could happen? How can someone who loved me as a therapy-daughter let this happen? Even if he isn't able to contact me, isn't it possible for him to have someone else contact me for him?
>
> Is it just because I'm no longer useful to him? Does caring depend on usefulness?Maybe I'm confused, but didn't he have someone else contact you for him?
You know how flight attendants tell you to secure your own mask before helping others? Of course I don't know what's really going on with him, but maybe right now he's securing his own mask. Which wouldn't mean you're no longer useful, or he doesn't care.
Bob
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 7:18:42
In reply to Re: He's not dying, posted by Dr. Bob on March 11, 2014, at 9:56:32
> I'm reminded of when I went AWOL here. Maybe even more disturbing than hearing from an impersonal note was not hearing anything.
>
> BobYou know, while I appreciate your concern, I resent your bringing Babble Administration into my current crisis. It just reminds me of some of the last work my therapist and I did together.
He said that it would be one thing if you had set up a website where sh*t being thrown at one was considered a good healthy road to growth. But that you didn't do that. You provided a place where incivility was not tolerated, and where we could feel safe. You let us grow to be involved in that place, and then you took it away from us. You unilaterally decided that the best thing is for people to learn to be tolerant of sh*t being thrown at them, and that compassion should be the response to sh*t throwers, while their victims were told, more or less, to suck it up. You were once intolerant, not of uncivil people, but of incivility. But you are now equally intolerant, not of sensitive people, but of the inability to handle sh*t being thrown at them or seeing sh*t thrown at others. You provided a place for us, then you yanked it out from under us. He didn't think this was a healthy place for me to be either from the point of a board philosophy or in terms of consistency and stability.
I was afraid to return, needlessly thus far, because I just can't handle any sh*t right now.
Whatever my therapist may have done, he at least never returned from vacation thinking that what I really needed as a therapist was Dr. Phil, and acting accordingly on a unilateral basis. It'd be fine if he were Dr. Phil to begin with. But it would not be fine if he decided midcourse to change his approach so radically.
I'm actually hoping that there's more involved here than his taking care of himself. Therapists have a greater responsibility to those who rely on them than that. Hell, *I* have a greater responsibility to others than that. It would be fine if he couldn't deal with interacting with me right now. But it's not fine if he has the oxygen to write an impersonal email, to record a voice message, but doesn't bother to write a couple of sentences to someone he has known for twenty years, someone he knows does (and that he has allowed to) see him as a parent.
I hope there's more to it than that. He recognizes, at least when not under pressure, the responsibility a therapist has to a client. And that a board administrator, if you wish to bring yourself into this, has to a board.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 7:29:31
In reply to Re: It hurts so much » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Twinleaf on March 12, 2014, at 16:21:18
Bizarre really, isn't it?
I don't handle stress or small crises at all well, and am known to fall apart after one. Or tolerate for a time then blow up and become a mess. But I can generally (except perhaps in medical situations) become very still and deliberate when I need to be. I don't ever remember forgetting my responsibilities to such a large degree. When I broke my arm my greatest concern was being able to do my work.
And yet he had an absolute genius and sort of a fearlessness in being authentic *within* the therapy room. In the space between us. I think that's what I needed to get better. The authenticity in that space. The lack of pretense or artificiality *in that space*, no matter how artificial the relationship may have been.
In fact, I suppose I know that *in that space* he does care about me. But he's not in that space now, and I have far less faith in his caring about me at all if I'm not directly in front of him.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 7:33:18
In reply to Re: It hurts so much » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by Poet on March 12, 2014, at 20:30:36
I suppose I'll find out today if it's anything more than a lack of caring on his side. I'm so anxious that I just hope I'll be able to leave the restroom for long enough to find out. (TMI, I know)
Keep your fingers crossed for his being *unable* to contact me.
Posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 7:38:50
In reply to Re: He's not dying » Dinah Seeks Support, posted by baseball55 on March 12, 2014, at 19:46:32
I do, but I don't want to intrude. That's about the only thing I was able to discover from my obsessive google search for reasons. Not that it was any help in that, but it did crop up incidentally.
I think I'll ask today what might be appropriate. Referred therapist might know.
I already sent a return email to him assuring him of my prayers, love and good wishes. I got the vacation message about not being able to take on any new patients right now (with no mention of current patients at all). I don't know if he will ever read his back emails.
Posted by Twinleaf on March 13, 2014, at 15:38:04
In reply to Re: He's not dying » baseball55, posted by Dinah Seeks Support on March 13, 2014, at 7:38:50
At this point, any information you can get should help you regain your equilibrium. I feel certain that every one of us who is in intensive therapy would react and feel just as you did. It's just shocking, and your reaction is what any attached, caring client would have. Feeling as you do means you have done a wonderful job as his client, and, also, despite the present nightmare, he has also done a wonderful job in helping to create a relationship where growth could occur.
Be sure to let us know what you do find out.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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