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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 45. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by SLS on January 13, 2014, at 22:18:23
Can someone please summarize what attachment theory is?
Thanks!
- Scott
Posted by alexandra_k on January 14, 2014, at 0:30:11
In reply to Attachment Theory?, posted by SLS on January 13, 2014, at 22:18:23
developed in the 60's (I think). Ainsworth?
Kid and mother. Mother leaves. Kid cries.
Kid doesn't settle - dependent
Kid settles.
Mother comes back.
Kid rejects mother - avoidant.
Kid settles. Normal.
Some kids push-pull they are - disorganized.
I think that was it.
Then the idea is that one can predict from how the kid behaves under these experimental condition... What attachment style they will exhibit throughout their life.
One issue is: Whether attachment patterns are stable over time. It might be that people exhibit different patterns of attachment depending on different relationships / through time.
This criticism has led to some theorists being very dubious about the notion of attachment style - and in some cases being very dubious indeed about the notion of personality as similarly being something consistent throughout the lifetime. Sceptics claim that there is more predictive leverage to be had by considering features of the external situation rather than features that are internal to the individual.
More recently there has indeed been a return to more sophisticated versions of attachment theory, though. Ones that look at the neurobiology of trauma and attachment. By theorists like Shore etc etc. Twinleaf knows about this stuff...
Posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2014, at 9:06:49
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory?, posted by alexandra_k on January 14, 2014, at 0:30:11
It almost sounds a bit like borderline personality? First I want you, no go, comes back and person settles down, then it begins all over again? Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on January 14, 2014, at 13:46:02
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory? » alexandra_k, posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2014, at 9:06:49
borderline was meant to be insecure, yeah. 'i hate you' (go away) / 'don't leave me' (don't go).
that kind of response was common in little kids who were hit or otherwise abused by their caregiver.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 14, 2014, at 13:49:10
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory?, posted by alexandra_k on January 14, 2014, at 13:46:02
there is other stuff on attachment theory...
related stuff???
unclear..
in terms of the attachment system. that comes online when little kids are... a certain age. i forget when. before that they don't seem attached to any particular person, really. then all of a sudden they freak out about strangers and cling to one person, typically.
so... the attachment system has something to do with bonding to a caregiver. in order to... elicit caretaking, i suppose.
perhaps there isn't a single 'attachment theory' so much as there are different theories of different aspects of attachment...
Posted by baseball55 on January 14, 2014, at 20:03:42
In reply to Attachment Theory?, posted by SLS on January 13, 2014, at 22:18:23
Just to expand on Alex's reply. Toddlers are in a room with their mothers. The mother leaves and then researchers evaluate how toddler responds when mother returns. Secure attachment - toddler welcomes mother back and plays happily. Anxious attachment - toddler fusses and seems ambivalent about mother's return. Avoident attachment - toddler ignores mother.
Theory is that attachment issues/relationship issues as adults are related to early parent/child attachment. There is no actual evidence for this, because no long-term longitudinal studies, but the idea makes sense from a psychodynamic perspective.
Children who could not form a bond with a parent (avoident attachment) will have difficulty forming bonds as adults. Personally, I know for a fact I was a case of avoident attachment. I actually ran away from my mother when I was three and ran away from home when I was five. I had tremendous difficulty as an adult in forming close bonds with people.
The theory is that borderline-type characteristics (fear of abandonment, unstable relationships) in adults probably started as anxious attachment in early childhood.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 17, 2014, at 0:56:00
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory?, posted by baseball55 on January 14, 2014, at 20:03:42
> Toddlers are in a room with their mothers. The mother leaves and then researchers evaluate how toddler responds when mother returns. Secure attachment - toddler welcomes mother back and plays happily. Anxious attachment - toddler fusses and seems ambivalent about mother's return. Avoident attachment - toddler ignores mother.
>
> Theory is that attachment issues/relationship issues as adults are related to early parent/child attachment.Sorry if this is a tangent. If you guys want, I'll start a new thread.
Posters are at a site with the moderator. The moderator leaves. How do the posters respond when the moderator returns?
Bob
Posted by 10derheart on January 17, 2014, at 11:35:19
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 17, 2014, at 0:56:00
Oh for ^&**&^^% sake, Dr. Bob. Your choice of analogy is....[insert any preferred uncivil expression].
Really?
Perhaps we all should break out the pacifiers and diapers and move along to the kiddie pool as HC likes to suggest.
Thanks ever so much. Not.
Posted by HomelyCygnet on January 17, 2014, at 12:11:40
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory? » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on January 17, 2014, at 11:35:19
Posted by SLS on January 17, 2014, at 14:09:54
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory? » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on January 17, 2014, at 11:35:19
Nice to see you!
:-)
(I get attached to the good ones).
- Scott
Posted by sigismund on January 17, 2014, at 14:58:27
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 17, 2014, at 0:56:00
>Posters are at a site with the moderator. The moderator leaves. How do the posters respond when the moderator returns?
And will he be the same?
Posted by SLS on January 17, 2014, at 15:22:06
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory? » Dr. Bob, posted by sigismund on January 17, 2014, at 14:58:27
> >Posters are at a site with the moderator. The moderator leaves. How do the posters respond when the moderator returns?
>
> And will he be the same?lol
With all due respect to the moderator, I must say that that was brilliant.
- Scott
Posted by sleepygirl2 on January 17, 2014, at 19:54:24
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory?, posted by Dr. Bob on January 17, 2014, at 0:56:00
There are variables at play here, but I think it's worth considering how we might react to the comings and goings of many people in our lives, including dr bob, and how it relates to our own attachment experiences.
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 19, 2014, at 3:04:23
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory? » sigismund, posted by SLS on January 17, 2014, at 15:22:06
> > > Posters are at a site with the moderator. The moderator leaves. How do the posters respond when the moderator returns?
> >
> > And will he be the same?
>
> lol
>
> With all due respect to the moderator, I must say that that was brilliant.I must say I agree. :-)
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on January 22, 2014, at 16:39:54
In reply to Attachment Theory?, posted by SLS on January 13, 2014, at 22:18:23
Just noticed this thread, and thought I would comment because I have been having a type of therapy based on it. The concept that relative failures in secure attachment during early childhood were responsible for anxiety and depressive disorders in later life were suggested about 50 years ago by John Bowlby in the UK. Mary Main and others in the US classified attachment into four types: Secure, Insecure (attached but anxious), Avoidant (avoiding closeness, tending to anger if approached too closely), and Disorganized ( the most severe, indicating a complete lack of ability to attach as sometimes seen in orphans).
One of the most significant therapists to base his work on attachment in recent years is Allan Schore of UCLA. He thinks that the most important function of the mothering figure in the first two years of life is to foster a secure attachment so that the infant lays down the proper neurons and connections in the right hemisphere so as to be able to regulate its own anxiety and distress. Therapy is modeled on what a "good enough" mother does with an infant - such things as allowing the client to take the lead in choosing the topic, staying with whatever feelings are there, not asking questions or changing the subject, not analyzing or interpreting ( those would be left hemisphere functions). It is based on the understanding that the mother uses her own right hemisphere as well as a variety of non-verbal communications ( gaze, intuition, body movement), to let the client's right (unconscious) hemisphere know that it is understood. The most amazing thing is that new neuronal connections can be formed throughout adult life that allow a client to become more securely attached, both to the therapist and other important people, and will also allow him to gain new brain structures which make greater emotional self-regulation possible. This kind of therapy is so new ( since about 2000) that it's hard to find a therapist who does it. If you are someone who feels they have deficits in early mothering, this kind of therapy is ideal, and can be life-transforming. I feel certain it will rapidly gain many more therapists who are trained to do it.
Posted by SLS on January 22, 2014, at 17:03:07
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory? » SLS, posted by Twinleaf on January 22, 2014, at 16:39:54
Posted by baseball55 on January 22, 2014, at 19:35:51
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory? » SLS, posted by Twinleaf on January 22, 2014, at 16:39:54
Thanks for this. Very interesting and informative. However, I would raise one issue. While therapy based on this kind of detailed analysis may be new, the idea of therapy as a kind of re-parenting is not very new at all. I don't recall the names and dates, but for at least a few decades, therapists practicing psycho-dynamic therapy rejected most Freudian ideas in favor Kohut's self-psychology whcih emphasized the idea that the therapist should act as a "good-enough" parent, providing unconditional positive regard (secure attachment), mirroring the patient's emotional state (engaging the right brain), and working through the transference until the patient could mourn their lack of a secure childhood and learn to soothe and become compassionate to themselves.
Both my 74 year old psychiatrist and my 45 year old social worker/therapist, subscribe to this view, though their language is slightly different. Glen Gabbard, who has written two textbooks on psychodynamic therapy for psychiatrists in training, subscribes to this view.
So I'm not sure how new or unique this attachment therapy is. Ultimately, I think most therapy is about forging a strong attachment with a therapist, learning to feel secure in that attachment, and, through that attachment, learning to venture out in the world safely, as a securely attached baby crawls away and looks over her shoulder to be sure the parent is still there.
Studies of therapy show over and over that the most important variable in therapeutic impact is the quality of the relationship between therapist and patient. Even Freud came to believe that the transference (attachment of patient to therapist) was the most important part of therapy.
Posted by Twinleaf on January 22, 2014, at 19:56:02
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory? » Twinleaf, posted by baseball55 on January 22, 2014, at 19:35:51
You make excellent points. I didn't know too much about those earlier therapists, but they were obviously very important in the development of the ideas I was discussing.
Posted by Phillipa on January 22, 2014, at 19:58:33
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory? » SLS, posted by Twinleaf on January 22, 2014, at 16:39:54
Melanie Klein had a pdoc that believed in her. Phillipa
Posted by alexandra_k on January 23, 2014, at 17:12:55
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory? » SLS, posted by Twinleaf on January 22, 2014, at 16:39:54
Nice post. I was hoping you would come and say something on this thread.
My therapist in Australia was of this sort of theoretic orientation. John Briere was one therapist he suggested to me.
I find the right brain connection... Emotional resonance... Whatever...
I find it to be almost too much to bear. Invasive? Too intimate? Something...
I'm not sure if it is because of lack of trust that I have because of past trauma... Or if it is more that I've always just been this way... But it is very hard for me.
I think mostly therapy with him was about exposure / desensitisation for me. Mostly it felt... Icky. Thats about the best I can explain it.
I think there is something to it. Especially with respect to learning how to self soothe and regulate emotions / physiological arousal. I'm not sure that that is what is needed for me anymore (perhaps because I got that from him already)... But I think it is something that a lot of people could profit from.
Posted by Twinleaf on January 24, 2014, at 9:19:32
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory? » Twinleaf, posted by alexandra_k on January 23, 2014, at 17:12:55
It sounds like you got a lot out of your experience with that therapist. I think you are not at all alone in finding it stressful; we all start with varying degrees of difficulty in emotional self-regulation and attachment impairments. It can be really hard just being in a therapeutic relationship!
I think it's remarkable that this type of therapy can actually allow our right hemispheres to form the neuronal connections which did not get formed in infancy because of inadequate mothering. Once you've got those connections, you are much better able to moderate your own distress without needing a therapist.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2014, at 15:06:09
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory?, posted by Twinleaf on January 24, 2014, at 9:19:32
autistic kids don't like it though, yeah? they find eye contact to be... arousing. not calming. the other person attempting to do the resonance thing can be... distressing. not soothing. i do wonder if i'm wired up a little bit differently in this respect. what other people seem to seek... i have an aversion to. i thought it was because my mother was so over-stimulating / insensitive to me / dysregulated and unpredictable herself... and maybe that was part of it (withdrawing from her was the best thing i could do to become calm). but maybe... i would have been a little like this with any caregiver. i guess we'll never know. about me, anyway.
Posted by Twinleaf on January 24, 2014, at 15:48:29
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory?, posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2014, at 15:06:09
Don't you think babies instinctively know whether it's best for them to withdraw or approach in a given situation? From what you have written about your mother, she was quite dysregulated herself, and secure attachment may not have been a possibility. But there's clearly nothing wrong with you, in the sense that you have all the things you need to grow and change in the right circumstances. This is just my personal opinion, but I think giving you a diagnosis on the autistic spectrum may have been the easiest way for them to provide you with the financial and housing aid you need without committing themselves to very much in the way of therapy. Even if there is a little truth to the idea of an autistic spectrum disorder, attachment-focused therapy can help a great deal with both autism and impaired emotional attachment. Here in the US, it is always a part of comprehensive treatment for children with autistic spectrum. The over-riding problem is how expensive really good treatment is.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2014, at 21:39:54
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory? » alexandra_k, posted by Twinleaf on January 24, 2014, at 15:48:29
Perhaps. But then... I didn't really take much pleasure in... Eye contact. And even a brief moment of emotional resonance in therapy was... Excruciating for me, somehow. Very intense. Would leave me exhausted and... Reeling... For days. Not pleasurable for me. Felt like exposure therapy more than anything else.
I suppose it is possible that it is a learned aversion, though. I certainly have become a lot more sensitive to things since I quit smoking. Smells. Tastes. And the gym... Part of learning to move... Part of my rehab... Has been about learning to feel. To take pleasure in the fast movement (and moment of weightlessness) in Olympic Weightlifting. I love spinning with weights as a counterbalance... And swinging from the pull up bars... Jumping... I wish I could back flip but I'm a bit scared... Headstand / handstand... The feeling of being upsidedown... Standing on one foot, even. And balancing about on a gym ball...
I think there was an element of the dx being... helpful... with respect to assistance for housing etc. To start with I thought that was all there was to it, really. But over time I've started to think...
They do seem genuinely interested in me in some respects... As a case of a female on the spectrum -- because current thought is that females are being under-diagnosed because they present differently. And also... I think one of the things they are giving me / trying to give me... Is access to a strong, capable, ... I don't quite know what to say... Support system. Consumer advocacy. Because the thing is... A lot of people are campaigning for 'different' rather than 'deficient' or 'broken' or whatever. The idea that... Perhaps there really isn't anything wrong with me. It is just that I'm a really bad fit for certain environments (e.g., ones containing gregarious, loud, jostly, people who are mostly focused on people connection). I... Simply can't function in that kind of environment. But then... They simply couldn't function in the kind of environment that is ideal for me.
Not better.. Not worse.. Just... Different. Different ways of being. Diversity. It's a good thing. We don't know how the environment will shift or...
This is...
It is some kind of peace for me. Resolution. Actually. This was... This was where my thesis was going, actually. But this just sort of happened to me... I don't actually feel that I have anything to contribute to hte field at present. But... Well... Wittgenstein said that philospophy was a form of therapy... And I think... It has helped me come to peace.
So... The resonance thing... I think the resonance is a form of intimacy / connection. And a sensitive parent / therapist is sensitive to when connection is needed and when distance is needed. Sometimes connection is soothing... Sometimes connection is arousing... How is it different? What is different about a soothing vs arousing connnection? Calming vs startling? Exciting vs calming? Some people love the exhiliration of roller coasters... Other people feel very sick... Others are very frightened...
In the gym... When things feel hard... Some people back away from it. Some are actively frightened of it. Other people grit their teeth resolve their faces and throw themselves in full force.
I think you can learn to be a bit different... How our parents react to things affects how we react as children... Whether we are bold to take risks or whether we huddle in the corner fussing... Whether we like the roller coaster or feel scared... But then certain other things just don't feel right... Like someone touching us some place when we'd really rather they didn't... No matter how much they say we like it... I... Feel a bit like that about eye contact sometimes. When people search into my eyes... I feel like they are physically groping me.
People feel differently about this... Some people say that it is just looking with eyes... But It is so much more to me than that...
Some things are a bit plastic... Some cultures kiss strangers on the cheeks as greeting -- ain't nothing to it... Some people feel very uncomfortable hugging uncle so and so... Maaori greet by touching noses and -- inhaling each others breath. their life force. Most non-maaori don't do it properly - so it isn't expected... I get it... But I won't. I... Can't. For me... That is extremely intimate / personal. I think it is because I'm hyper-sensitive to things... Very easily overwhelmed.
I don't know.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 25, 2014, at 0:36:53
In reply to Re: Attachment Theory?, posted by alexandra_k on January 24, 2014, at 21:39:54
and then i watch film footage of behaviourist therapy or 'treatment' with autistic kids... teaching them to look in the eyes for food reward. you can see that they really don't want to. they don't like it. they'd really rather not do it. but they train them to do it, anyway... train them to be more 'normal'. why? not for the kids benefit... i really don't think...
and so my last therapist had this thing about emotional attunement or resonance or whatever it was... and therapy (for him... for me... whatever...) was about his trying to make that connnection with me.
and i felt a lot like those kids.
but i'm sure he knows whats best.
for me.
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