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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 13:20:00
Last Friday I walked in and knew something was wrong. But he looked innocently at me and said nothing was wrong. And while this wasn't the focus of the session, when I basically checked out of the session and he coaxed me back and encouraged me to say why I left (I was scared!) he repeated what is now my least favorite phrase. "I don't know how much I should tell you."
I don't think he'll ever be using that phrase again.
I called him after the session and left a slightly incoherent message about gaslighting and how if I noticed something was wrong, and it actually was, he shouldn't smile and say nothing was wrong. And about how the answer to that infuriating question was pretty easy. If it had to do with his feelings, he shouldn't say any more than he wants me to know. And that I respected that and was fine with it. What was his was his, to him, and none of my business. But if it had to do with stupid therapy rules, then he was making me pretty angry because this wasn't very therapeutic. I think I also mentioned the word coy.
Most of today's session was spent on my health and on my distress about Slinky.
But at the very end of the session I mentioned the call. He'd forgotten everything about it except the fact that I'd made it, of course.
I told him that he looked like Ernest Borgnine on Friday, not like himself. And I asked him if he'd felt heavy. He asked if I meant emotionally heavy, and when I said yes, admitted that yes he had. And insisted that he wasn't gaslighting me. I'd just asked a different question. That if I asked if anything was wrong, he'd have been honest in saying no he couldn't think of anything. But if I'd have asked if he felt heavy, he'd have said yes. But darn it, I can't find words for stuff that fast.
He also explained *that* phrase as meaning that he knew that I always panicked and took the slightest thing to mean that he was going to terminate me.
Ok, so here's the part that I don't need to be semi-psychic to figure out.
Later I said "You told me you were leaving town." He obviously startled and asked in alarm "I said that?!!" When I explained that he had told me that when he bought a house in a new town after the storm, he visibly relaxed.
I don't think I need any semi-psychic abilities on that one. He clearly was afraid he'd told me that recently, which means it must be an issue recently. He didn't sound bewildered. He sounded alarmed.
So now what? I'm tempted to start next session by casually and matter of factly asking what he suggests I do after he terminates me and see what happens.
The funny thing was that the session was warm and friendly and very positive. Even though I expressed anger with him. (I don't think he liked the word "coy" though.) We left on excellent terms.
Yet if he terminates me I'll hate him forever and ever and ever. Like Khan's final words...
Posted by Happyflower on June 3, 2008, at 13:33:54
In reply to I don't have to be semipsychic for this one, posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 13:20:00
Okay, maybe it is my brain right now, but I am confused. When you mean he left town, do you mean a long ways away where you would have to terminate?
My old T was always so elusive about stuff, It was frusterating to say the least.
(((Dinah)))
Posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 13:42:18
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one » Dinah, posted by Happyflower on June 3, 2008, at 13:33:54
After Katrina, he and his wife moved to a town three hours away. This is what I was referring to.
I did manage to continue to see him. I drove there once a week as often as I could in any way manage leaving work a day a week. And it turned out he was in my town at least once a week.
It wasn't ideal but we limped through, and in the end he moved back.
But he very clearly thought he had said something he shouldn't have more recently. I saw the surprise, alarm, and then relief as clearly as if he had closed captioning.
When I did it verbally for my husband, he started laughing and saw instantly what I meant. Maybe it's hard to convey in writing.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on June 3, 2008, at 13:44:11
In reply to I don't have to be semipsychic for this one, posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 13:20:00
Oh, Dinah: You crack me up!!! "Ernest Borgnine on a Friday?!"
I can relate; I am usually SO honest with my t (I mean I told him about a dream i had about telling him I wanted to "worship" his penis?! Fer cryin' out loud; it only took me 5 years to get to that kind of intimacy. I could write a book on how he has sexualized our relationship; but will save that for later.
I asked him what would his ID do, if he allowed it to get out there.
His response: "Everything and Anything"
Arrrrghhhh; that kind of stuff makes me (crazier!) He likes his bag of tricks, but I call him on it every time!I totally agree with you. If it is something that has to do with YOUR therapy, etc.....he should TELL you!
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by Happyflower on June 3, 2008, at 13:46:27
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one, posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 13:42:18
Okay, I get it,lol. I am a little slow these days of my summer break from school. I guess it is true you lose it if you don't use it. ;-)
Your T should KNOW you KNOW his so well by now. lol
Posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 17:13:39
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one, posted by sassyfrancesca on June 3, 2008, at 13:44:11
It's not really the disclosure that bothers me so much as that stupid phrase "I don't know how much I should tell you."
He doesn't have to tell me anything at all, unless as you say it involves the future of my therapy. Then I think I have a right to know.
I'll feel like a total *ss if I go on merrily my way, secure in my therapy, and then he tells me one day he's moving in a month. If he weren't so darn secretive, I wouldn't be so darn paranoid about it.
Posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 17:16:33
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one, posted by Happyflower on June 3, 2008, at 13:46:27
You'd think he would...
You know, I kind of like the idea of asking him what on earth I'd do if he terminated me (the imagery that phrase brings up!!!). He'll say there's no reason for me to be concerned about it at this point, but really isn't that the best time to discuss it?
If we wait until he finally tells me his life is settled and it involves terminating me, all I'll be able to do is rock and wail and try not to throw up and if I have some spare time hate him with every fiber of my being.
Posted by raisinb on June 3, 2008, at 18:51:29
In reply to I don't have to be semipsychic for this one, posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 13:20:00
That is scary. I'd worry, too. However, it sounds like right now, you don't have enough information to conclude he's terminating you. If he were (terrible thought, I know), he'd tell you, I'm sure, in a timely fashion.
I hope he can reassure you adequately. And to borrow Poet's technique, a cyber kick to his head for denying there was something wrong when there obviously was.
Posted by Lucie Lu on June 3, 2008, at 20:06:22
In reply to I don't have to be semipsychic for this one, posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 13:20:00
Dinah - I agree that seems like a very strange session!... although you and your T seem to have a unique relationship from the posts, you must know each other so well. I guess I'm surprised you speak of him unilaterally "terminating you" -how disempowering this must feel after all you've been through together! I always thought termination is supposed to be a mutual decision, made slowly and thoughtfully, over a period of months, lots of preparation etc - do you really think that he might be planning to leave and not give you time to get ready for a good ending? We commit so much to these relationships that we can only hope that the ending, when it comes, will be a positive and mutually acceptable one. I really hope everything turns out OK. And coyness is NOT attractive in a T! -LL
Posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 22:22:44
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one » Dinah, posted by raisinb on June 3, 2008, at 18:51:29
> That is scary. I'd worry, too. However, it sounds like right now, you don't have enough information to conclude he's terminating you. If he were (terrible thought, I know), he'd tell you, I'm sure, in a timely fashion.
No, I don't have that. I wonder how I got caught up in this again when I was doing so darn well. Several sessions went by where he was totally present and engaged. In fact, I'd commented on it the session before Friday's. I didn't mention his personal life at all. It was enough that he was there.
>
> I hope he can reassure you adequately. And to borrow Poet's technique, a cyber kick to his head for denying there was something wrong when there obviously was.You really would think he would know better. Especially since it's what caused the big to do last time. All he needed to do was acknowledge that he wasn't himself and say that he would try hard to bring himself to the session.
And truth be told I guess he did eventually. Or he wouldn't have noticed I'd gone awol and asked me to come back.
I guess... Oh heck. I'm too hard on him. But I suppose if I was honest with myself, I'd say that I expect him to have the same view of therapy as I do. A sacred space. But for me it's two hours a week. Hours I make special by paying for and by traveling to. I carve that time out of my life. For him it's just another hour in a day. It's probably unrealistic for me to want him to consider it sacred as well.
Posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 22:32:18
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one, posted by Lucie Lu on June 3, 2008, at 20:06:22
He really didn't like that term. He insisted he wasn't angry, but I could feel him kind of coiling back from the word "coy". He said he'd keep all that I said in mind next time he thought "I don't know how much I should tell her." I hope he never says it aloud again though. It wasn't even really in context. He misunderstood what I was trying to say I guess.
Yes, it is unique. By virtue of sheer longevity he makes sure to tell me. :)
I can't imagine a termination that would leave me feeling that it was in any way mutually agreeable. He does know, I suppose, that as soon as he tells me he will be leaving, or terminating me, therapy will be over. So he isn't likely to choose to give me much lead time, because he knows that there will be no gradual termination.
For me the act of stating that I will be terminated for whatever reason is termination at once. How could I talk to him knowing that he has abandoned me? How could I discuss that abandonment with the abandoner?
I've told him that before, and he does know it.
I suggest to others that they take advantage of the time to do a "good" termination. I admire those who can. I can't.
Posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 22:49:45
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one » Lucie Lu, posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 22:32:18
I can't help but think that termination really is an appropriate word. I don't see how at least part of me can live without him.
No one but my therapist values that part of me. T3 thought it should be firmly suppressed and mastered. T2 seemed to think it should be exterminated. No one else would ever just accept.
I guess it could be said that if no one values that part of me, maybe it doesn't matter if it lives.
Posted by 10derHeart on June 4, 2008, at 2:04:14
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one, posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 22:49:45
Well, *you* clearly value that part of you, right?
And you certainly aren't "no one."Maybe...you don't have to allows others - not even your most beloved T. - to decide when or if any part of you is no longer "valuable." Maybe only you get to decide that always?
But, you know I understand the terror around the other T-word, you *know* I do.....((Dinah))
Posted by Lucie Lu on June 4, 2008, at 7:37:17
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one, posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 22:49:45
I suspect that part of you "only a T could love" has poked its little head out here on this board - and received lots of love and affirmation?
Posted by Dinah on June 4, 2008, at 9:31:09
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on June 4, 2008, at 2:04:14
> Well, *you* clearly value that part of you, right?
Weeelllll..... Not always. I must confess that I'd just as soon it went away. Trouble is that it doesn't go away completely. It just makes my life difficult without that outlet and that recognition and having someplace to go and just be.
That part of me with my therapist around may think or wish to do outrageous things. But can say them to my therapist, have him accept them calmly, and then laugh and recognize how ridiculous they are.
Without my therapist, I DO the outrageous things, at least on occasion when there's a hostile takeover.
It's not that it's without any appeal. That part of me can be quite charming and caring with my therapist. But is rather less charming without him in my life. I saw it when he was gone, as well as before. I think that part of me really tries for a generosity of spirit, but can only manage it when its needs are being fulfilled.
(I'm only using third person because it's less confusing in writing. I always use first person in real life.)
> And you certainly aren't "no one."
>
> Maybe...you don't have to allows others - not even your most beloved T. - to decide when or if any part of you is no longer "valuable." Maybe only you get to decide that always?It's hard for me to maintain that stance without outside help. And even if I did, without my therapist it's natural for rational me to squeeze out emotional me without even trying. And feedback does matter.
When T3 says that I need to control and master my inner child I was offended on many fronts. Not least that I don't consider myself a child, and consider myself the true self not an inner self, with rational me being a false front. (sorry, had to use first person there. not sure why) And the way she said it pretty much meant repress. That hasn't worked at all for me, in that it leads to some pretty bad behaviors.
What T2 said was so bad that I can't even remember it.
My husband is not unlike rational me himself, and he doesn't at all like emotional me.
It's hard to maintain any positive sense of self with so much negative feedback.
>
> But, you know I understand the terror around the other T-word, you *know* I do.....((Dinah))
>
>I do know. I can't bear it. I thought I'd gotten over that point of view, but I haven't.
To make matters worse, I had two more flashes of true vertigo last night. I had thought I was getting better. I'm absolutely terrified of having another chronic condition, another one that requires dietary restriction, and one that has very much limited my ability to do things in the past week and that I assume will continue to limit my ability to even work, never mind paint or garden or even pick up after the dogs. So my desire to live isn't that strong right now. I have to quit thinking of the possibility of an unbearable loss.
Posted by Dinah on June 4, 2008, at 9:47:24
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one » Dinah, posted by Lucie Lu on June 4, 2008, at 7:37:17
Perhaps Very briefly. And believe you me, when that happens the response is not always love and affirmation. :)
I'm not blaming the board for this. A natural response is frequently anger and confusion, since the times when it happens are not necessarily when I'm being most love-able.
But also, emotional me can't type or even read for very long without rational me taking over. It must be a different part of the brain involved. It was hard for it even to have access to words, and still thinks wordlessly and has to work hard to find the words - often with the help of rational me. And uses them very idiosynchratically. My therapist is used to that, is patient and encouraging, and even seems to enjoy the imagery. But T2 and T3 seemed angry about it.
As I go deeper and deeper into that place in myself, my sentence structure goes out the window although I back up and correct myself painstakingly, my word choice lessens, and my frustration level shoots through the roof. It's not a question of age or childishness, so much as it's a level of being, or maybe just using a separate part of the brain.
Posted by raisinb on June 4, 2008, at 11:13:55
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one » raisinb, posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 22:22:44
No, I think you DO have a right to expect him to treat it as sacred, if only because it is sacred to you. I think when you start to feel like you're only another appointment, therapy is not going to be that effective.
Even my sort-of-crappy T has affirmed this :)
Posted by rskontos on June 4, 2008, at 13:06:29
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one » Lucie Lu, posted by Dinah on June 4, 2008, at 9:47:24
Dinah, the rational brain and the emotional brain are housed in two separate hemisphere's and sometimes as far as I am concerned the twain shall not meet. sigh...
anyway, i understand how you feel although right now I did not post. I read. It is hard.
I hope it all works out but I think I am reading that somehow things seem to working toward an eventually separation of some inner workings in his life? Or I might not been reading right. My two fragmented brain hemispheres are not in sync with one another at the present moment.
Plus I had a fight with T. yet life moves on.
rsk
but I am trying to follow along here.
Posted by sassyfrancesca on June 4, 2008, at 15:13:19
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one » Happyflower, posted by Dinah on June 3, 2008, at 17:16:33
(((Dinah)): You are NOT paranoid....Paranoia is the fear, etc....for NO reason; you have a reason to wonder what is going on with him, etc....because he is so secretive.
Hugs, Sassy
Posted by Dinah on June 5, 2008, at 10:24:40
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one » Dinah, posted by raisinb on June 4, 2008, at 11:13:55
:)
He tries. I'll give him that. There had been several sessions where he really was there.
Sometimes he really understands the sacredness of the therapy encounter. Spirituality is very important to him, and he does see therapy the way I do. But other times he seems bemused by the idea. I guess it depends on what's going on with him.
Posted by Dinah on June 5, 2008, at 10:32:05
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one » Dinah, posted by rskontos on June 4, 2008, at 13:06:29
Yeah. That's my understanding. :(
I don't altogether understand the rational/emotional split. I've never been able to find any writing that is to the point of my experience. I just accept that it *is*.
And so does he.
I'm sorry you had a fight with your therapist. Was it a relationship deepening fight or a relationship undermining fight?
Posted by Dinah on June 5, 2008, at 10:39:55
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one, posted by sassyfrancesca on June 4, 2008, at 15:13:19
This is what I say!!
If he dangles bait in front of me, he shouldn't complain if I bite.
Particularly this time there was absolutely no point to the comment. I hadn't asked what was going on, and it wasn't even in my mind. I was just trying to get him to realize that he wasn't present with me at that moment, and that he needed to shift his focus.
What I really wanted to do was to kneel by his feet, take his hands, and ask him to look at me and to be present in this moment. To tell him that his troubles would still be there later, but *in this moment* he was safe, and that in this moment he needed to be present.
But I knew that was inappropriate so I just checked out. It helps some that he followed up and asked me to return.
It's not that I don't care about what's happening with him. Of course I do. But he doesn't want my caring or concern.
Posted by backseatdriver on June 5, 2008, at 15:09:42
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one » sassyfrancesca, posted by Dinah on June 5, 2008, at 10:39:55
Dinah, I'm all choked up inside reading what you've written here, about not having a place for part of you, except sometimes with your T, and how he doesn't want some of the things you want to give him, like your caring and concern.
I am going through this right now myself. I used to have a different sort of T, a woman who was very empathic and who really wanted me to take ALL of me into the session. Inside me there is a lonely little girl who only wants to love people and have that love be accepted. It is so humiliating to show that wish, to offer that love, and have it be refused or ignored. My new T is not interested in that. He is hostile, provocative, insulting (when he is not being outright seductive, I posted earlier about this).
The only thing that keeps me in this relationship is the idea that it might be some clever ruse on his part -- that his position towards me might, in the end, be healing.
I don't want to hijack this thread but I'm dying to ask: Does anyone know how (or even if) this stance is therapeutic?
Posted by rskontos on June 5, 2008, at 15:31:09
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one » rskontos, posted by Dinah on June 5, 2008, at 10:32:05
The rational emotional split is that each side of the brain is responsible for the different processes. ONe side deals more with emotional aspects, ie right brain--here is a clip:
Left Brain / Right Brain
Research on brain theory helps you understand why some people are excellent inventors but poor producers or good managers but weak leaders. The research indicates that the brain is divided into two hemispheres, the left and the right, and that each hemisphere specializes in different functions, processes different kinds of information, and deals with different kinds of problems. The left brain works more with logic and analysis, the right works more with emotions and imagination.So you see, the left side of the brain is the rational or logical side while the right side is the emotional side. While there can be some cross over in some people for the most part there is a separateness to it. There is a lot of research. I like the brain and have looked into this alot.
I think it was in part to a scheduled session with my H that I thought I was ready for, but I wasn't. At least not all of me was. Unknown to me, I picked a fight with my H and then called my T and cancelled the appt with him and my H while I was in a dissociative state. I didnt know this and when my H called for directions I gave them to him and he arrived but T had already given the time to someone else. It made me upset he did not think about this possibility and call me to double check why I would do this. Everything was ok on Monday after we discussed it and I was excited about my personality test results I had received . It was a good session and the first since our last one were he fought for me to stay. He then gave me a bill and there were errors on it. He billed me for two sessions I had cancelled in advance but also the one I dissociated and cancell which my H went to and he wasn't available. I felt this was unfair and offered to pay half. But I reminded him he had offered to not charge me at all if money was a problem for H but I just jumped on the notion that he really did not mean it and was just like all the other jerks out there that aren't trustworthy. I am not sure what all I said as at some point i was not the only one in the conversation. I overracted as this is what I do right now. He called back twice, once to apologize and then again to make sure I was coming back on Monday and for me to think about how he can make me sure he isn't out to get me. Made me feel bad.
Sometimes I am just not able to react in a normal manner. It is scary.
Sorry you asked?
So I guess it is a deepening if I allow it but I find that hard.
Still
rsk
Posted by Dinah on June 5, 2008, at 19:36:57
In reply to Re: I don't have to be semipsychic for this one » Dinah, posted by backseatdriver on June 5, 2008, at 15:09:42
It doesn't sound as if your therapist's stance is all that therapeutic or helpful. I don't think I'd have ever considered my therapist hostile or insulting. At least I never considered him deliberately insulting. Accidentally, sure.
Is he leading you to any particularly stunning insights perhaps? Some therapists seem to have a "direct" approach that I might find abrasive, but that others might find insightful and concise. Otherwise I'm at a bit of a loss as to how it's therapeutic to be hostile to a client.
I want to clarify, for my therapist's sake, that I didn't mean that he didn't want my caring because he wanted to reject me. I truly do feel that he cares for me. And he is very sensitive to my concerns for him, and considers it quite natural considering the length of time we've worked together. He understands that I wish he weren't hurting, and he has been very respectful in acknowledging it. But in the end he is my therapist. As he once said, he is part of my support system. I can't be part of his, or the therapeutic relationship would be compromised.
I know that I may come across as not caring about his pain, and I wanted to clarify that I really did, and I express it to the extent I feel I can in the bounds of therapeutic propriety. I care very much about his pain, I hate to see anything that keeps him from being happy, and I wish I could help him. But I recognize that I can't. And while I'm not averse to tossing aside the therapeutic conventions in order to be caring, my therapist absolutely does not want me to.
Well, to be honest, I want the very best for him as long as it doesn't mean that he terminates me. I'm not a saint.
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