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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 26 to 50 of 59. Go back in thread:
Posted by raisinb on May 7, 2008, at 11:29:46
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does...., posted by rskontos on May 6, 2008, at 20:13:13
RSK, I think Llurpsie's definition is wonderful but I'd add some things. I don't know if you definitely have to be sharing an emotion, but you need to have a sense that your therapist is "into" it, whether that's positive or negative.
My therapists and I have had terrible fights. She's cried, I've cried. This was not necessarily a good thing, and there were no warm fuzzy feelings--but I knew she was present when she snapped at me or cried. I knew she was there. "Into" it is the best way I can describe it.
When they are present, you can *affect* them. You can make them feel *something.* You're not isolated and powerless.
> presence look like. Dinah I am so sorry about your therapist checking out. But something in your post made me realize something. Maybe I have never had mine's presence. Can you and Llurpsie, or raisin or someone explain presence better so my muddled mind might grasp it?
>
> rsk
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 12:03:14
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does.... » rskontos, posted by raisinb on May 7, 2008, at 11:29:46
Yes, that's quite true.
That was also the conclusion of "Every Day Gets A Little Closer: A Twice-told Therapy" by Irvin D. Yalom.That's why if my only choices are to have him yell at me, or be the attentively smiling superficial therapist, I'll take the yelling.
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 12:07:17
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does.... » raisinb, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 12:03:14
Admittedly, I really do hate imperviousness. I was telling Dr. Bob the truth when I said his persona of invulnerability made me want to kick and yell and get any reaction at all from him. It's even worse with my therapist. I just can't bear it.
I worked with him last time to bring as much connection as possible to the relationship. I listened when he said to have faith, that we were in a trough in our relationship but that it would crest again. I can't say I was patient, but I stayed in there fighting all the way.
But I don't want to have to do that again. It hurt.
Thanks for really understanding that.
Posted by rskontos on May 7, 2008, at 13:45:46
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does.... » rskontos, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 20:44:23
Dinah I think you did very well actually with both. It has me thinking. Thanks for your description and you underestimate your ability with words.:)
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 7, 2008, at 13:46:54
In reply to presence, described » rskontos, posted by llurpsienoodle on May 6, 2008, at 20:30:24
Llurpsie,
That was perfectly described, thanks. This was more than I could hope for and alas shows me what I am missing.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 7, 2008, at 13:49:15
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't » seldomseen, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 20:21:39
Dinah, I think you shouldn't think about him so much, you have so much guilt, he is your therapist and he needs to be there for you with the presence. JMHO,
I am truly sorry you feel like this.
Seems like you were traumatized by him being there but not. No matter how hard for him, it seems like it hurt you alot.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 7, 2008, at 13:53:05
In reply to I guess I'm panicking, posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 23:27:47
Dinah, I would panick too as I would not want too much personal information either. All your points are valid, about if you can manage then why can't he, must be a bigger is all i can say.
Good luck sweetie no matter what you say. I don't blame you for being sick and tired either.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on May 7, 2008, at 13:57:42
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does.... » rskontos, posted by raisinb on May 7, 2008, at 11:29:46
raisinb, thanks for your addition, I agree with you about Llurpsies definition, I think it is beautifully expressed. I also think mine is not present. And this is why I have shut down. Initially I was in crisis mode and had to do something but now I need a connection. Maybe I will take her definition too but I have found him to be less than open to things like this so I am not sure what to do except to move on.
I told him during one of our discussion i never thought therapy would be so lonely. He did not comment on that.
So is he present. No I don't think so. YOu guys tell me if you told your therapist that you thought therapy was lonely would they at least make a comment?
rsk
Posted by muffled on May 7, 2008, at 15:21:04
In reply to Re:Guys what exactly does...., posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 12:07:17
Sorry you having T troubles.
I am finding a new T.
Its hard when you care bout your T, cuz then it messes w/the therapy.
Yet you and your T have such a history, there's comfort in the familiar and safe.(how many male T's are ken dolls????)
I'm sorry your T has something going on.
Thats so hard :-(
The whole T relationship is crazymaking at best.
I hope you can chill some.
I hope things work out OK.
Take care,
M
Posted by Annierose on May 7, 2008, at 17:43:02
In reply to I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't., posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 12:00:46
I am late to this thread.
Try not to get ahead of yourself. Maybe you can ask him, without getting personal, if he thinks this is a temporary situation or one more likely to last a long time.
I know the difference you are describing. We all have days when we are not "present" in our own therapy sessions ... let alone our therapists.
Thinking of you.
Posted by TherapyGirl on May 7, 2008, at 20:25:30
In reply to I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't., posted by Dinah on May 6, 2008, at 12:00:46
I'm so sorry. And I get it, I really do. But I also remember several posts from you about fighting to relationship. So maybe you could at least discuss this with him a little more before making a decision?
((((((((Dinah))))))))
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 22:30:46
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't., posted by Annierose on May 7, 2008, at 17:43:02
My memories are getting hazy, but I did ask that and his reply indicated it wasn't short term.
I've got a plan to clarify things on Friday. Sort of a mental decision tree. Of course, I need his responses to fit into one of my anticipated paths.
I don't think I'd ever leave the relationship, and won't even take a break unless I think it's a wise choice.
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 22:35:40
In reply to Re: I can't do it again. I just can't. And I won't. » Dinah, posted by TherapyGirl on May 7, 2008, at 20:25:30
I'll talk to him about it on Friday, and maybe even longer, although I'd rather just get it over with and not draw it out.
I think my ultimate goal is to preserve the relationship, not destroy it. At least on my end.
As it's gotten blurrier in my mind, I begin to have more hope that I imagined it all. It was such a surprise to me. I thought I'd just need to remind him to bring himself back to the room, and he would, and that would be the end of it.
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 22:37:10
In reply to Re: I guess I'm panicking » Dinah, posted by rskontos on May 7, 2008, at 13:53:05
Posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 22:39:14
In reply to (((Dinah))), posted by muffled on May 7, 2008, at 15:21:04
Yeah. He's become part of my life.
Yet I've gotten much better at not calling him between sessions. At not requiring him to help me modulate my moods. I may be turning to risperdal instead, but it turns out ok. I always called Risperdal "therapist in a bottle".
Posted by backseatdriver on May 8, 2008, at 9:22:01
In reply to Re: (((Dinah))) » muffled, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 22:39:14
I adore the phrase "therapist in a bottle". So much better than my T's line, which is "the pill is a co-therapist." No way! The pill is the GENIE that comes out of the bottle, even when T does not show up in the room for therapy.
I would tell my T this, but he would be SOOO insulted...
Posted by Dinah on May 8, 2008, at 12:22:27
In reply to Re: (((Dinah))) » muffled, posted by Dinah on May 7, 2008, at 22:39:14
Summary.
1) He's sorry he ever said anything. Stupid thing to be sorry about. I was already distraught because I knew he wasn't present. He should be sorry he wasn't able to be present and upset me. It wouldn't have made me less upset if he just folded his arms and refused to say anything, or if he'd have said everything was ok when I already knew it wasn't (in terms of my therapy not of his life). So he must mean he's sorry that he told me anything because now I'm upsetting him.
2) He says I'm not overreacting.
3) He doesn't know if he's able to be present. He hopes so and he's been trying, but it's up to me to say if he's succeeding and he hopes I give him feedback on that.
4) The issue may cause him to be unavailable to be my therapist long term. He can't quantify the chances.
5) He'd like to talk about this in person rather than on the phone, and doesn't want me to cancel all future sessions. But he's not actually going to say anything different in person. But he thinks that it's best (not) discussed in person. He doesn't have any openings today so he'll see me tomorrow.
6) He understands that I'm angry and he's sorry that I'm angry. I understand that he's got enough to deal with, and doesn't need me in addition, and I'm sorry to add to his distress.
That's it, folks. His big answer was that he should have been uncommunicative as to his being closed off and lacking in presence, even though it is a long term thing.
I'm full of Risperdal, and will continue to be for a while, I think.
Posted by Dinah on May 8, 2008, at 12:27:16
In reply to I called, he returned call at my request, posted by Dinah on May 8, 2008, at 12:22:27
Oh, and when I cancelled all future sessions, he said with all due outrage "You're kidding?!!!"
This despite the fact that he referred to everything all call as what a therapist should say to a client, what other therapists would say to clients, etc.
If he's going to pull our relationship to make me feel guilty about quitting, he can't simultaneously make our relationship out to be generic.
Posted by Dinah on May 8, 2008, at 12:36:24
In reply to Re: I called, he returned call at my request, posted by Dinah on May 8, 2008, at 12:27:16
Oh, and to be absolutely clear, I pointed out that I wasn't asking anything at all about him, except as it pertained to my therapy. And I thought I had a right to ask about my therapy.
Posted by Nadezda on May 8, 2008, at 13:05:59
In reply to Re: I called, he returned call at my request, posted by Dinah on May 8, 2008, at 12:36:24
That's just awful, Dinah.
I really feel for you-- I hate to think what it must feel like to lose someone so significant, so abruptly, and in this way---
If you need a break from therapy, either until you're ready to discuss the issue further (maybe you'll want to, after the immediate shock wears off) or until he's able to be present, and the long-term threat is resolved-- I completely would support that. Whatever you need, whatever will help most-- is what you must do.
Maybe there's some good to going in for to discuss it in person-- but if he's said all he's going to say-- I'm not sure it seems obvious what.
I absolutely wish that this works out as you need it to-- and as quickly as possible. Otherwise, he's put you into such a difficult and painful position-- you don't deserve that, and it's so unfair.
many hugs,
Nadezda
Posted by llurpsienoodle on May 8, 2008, at 13:08:24
In reply to I called, he returned call at my request, posted by Dinah on May 8, 2008, at 12:22:27
How devastating, Dinah,
I can't help but be curious about what the big thing in his life is, and how it could be affecting the relationship to such a deep degree. I think you have every right to be curious too.I hope you decide to see him in person. He may let you "in" for just a moment to see his pain, and that might make it more real for you.
until then, risperdal-away. You once said it was your therapy-in-a-bottle.
Well, sending you some virtual zyprexa zydis. that stuff with tranquilize an elephant.
-Ll
Posted by Racer on May 8, 2008, at 13:24:20
In reply to Re: I called, he returned call at my request, posted by Dinah on May 8, 2008, at 12:36:24
> Oh, and to be absolutely clear, I pointed out that I wasn't asking anything at all about him, except as it pertained to my therapy. And I thought I had a right to ask about my therapy.
Maybe it's just me, and maybe I'm so completely out to lunch I don't know anything at all -- but I think it's your right to ask about your therapy...
Not, you understand, that that means much...
Posted by Dinah on May 8, 2008, at 19:45:08
In reply to Re: I called, he returned call at my request » Dinah, posted by llurpsienoodle on May 8, 2008, at 13:08:24
Risperdal is more consistent than he is, that's for sure.
I'm really not that curious. Apart from all else, the range of possibilities isn't huge. And his word choice and the fact that it might mean termination for me down the line narrow those possibilities even more. I of course feel very sorry for his distress. But I don't need to know the particulars if he doesn't wish to share them.
I'm more irritated by his heavy handed mysteriousness. Every parent, and I'm assuming every therapist, should know that there is a simple formula wherein you can tell as little as you wish and still reassure a child or client.
"Therapist is upset/distracted/sad/whatever {because of *one sentence explanation* is purely optional}, but the important thing is that while I may not be my best over the next (insert realistic time frame), I care about you and I'm still your therapist and I will continue to be your therapist. We'll get through this together."
Or, if he doesn't think he will continue to be my therapist, a reassuring as possible brief explanation. "There is a remote/slight/moderate/fair/good chance that this will affect my ability to be your therapist for the long term (insert realistic time frame as best as possible). But if that happens, you will be ok because we'll make provisions for you. (Insert possible or expected provisions)."
Because when a child/client asks "What's wrong?" they're not looking for a expose as much as they're asking "what will happen to meeee?"
And that can be competently and professionally answered without much personal disclosure at all. Maybe none, unless they're going in for surgery or something else equally visible.
Why the heck doesn't he know this? Especially since I told him.
Posted by Dinah on May 8, 2008, at 19:51:38
In reply to Re: I called, he returned call at my request, posted by Nadezda on May 8, 2008, at 13:05:59
I don't think he gets it at all. That this is difficult for me, or unfair of him.
I'm particularly angry that his reaction mostly consisted of being sorry he told me anything. He surely knows me well enough to know that he doesn't need to say a thing for me to know something's wrong. If he hadn't put up the wall, surely he realized that I'd be able to tell he was upset. And since he did put up the wall, didn't he realize I could see it? And yet his reaction is that the problem was caused by his saying something? Snort. It might have been caused by the way he said it. But there would have been a problem no matter what. Either he's not thinking of it from my point of view, or he doesn't care about my point of view. Because what he really means is "I'm sorry I said anything because this is more annoying to me than if you were upset and didn't know what was going on."
I think he may be wrong about that. I can be equally annoying when he's not totally there, no matter what the reason.
I hope I have the courage to do what I think is best for me. My experience with myself is that I get scared and break down and can't bear the thought of losing him.
I'm a coward.
Posted by Dinah on May 8, 2008, at 19:54:24
In reply to Re: I called, he returned call at my request » Dinah, posted by Racer on May 8, 2008, at 13:24:20
Well, he's annoyed with me. Does that count as being emotionally present? I'm not sure. If it was anger, I'd know he was really present. Annoyance it could go either way. And I can't feel him over the phone.
I'm so impatient for tomorrow so I can get on with my life one way or the other. You know how bad I am with change.
I'll probably fold, and beg him to forgive me. :(
Even if it is reasonable for me to want to know what to expect in my own therapy.
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