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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by tabitha on September 10, 2004, at 0:12:32
In reply to Sex therapy, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 13:15:26
I've just caught up with this thread. How brave of you, Dinah. I hope you'll keep us updated. I'm curious how a sex therapist can help.
Posted by daisym on September 10, 2004, at 0:14:24
In reply to help for painful intercourse » Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 9, 2004, at 22:44:56
I have to ask, and of course, you don't have to answer...
Did you find dealing with your husband's sexual difficulties triggering at all? It seems that I take so much of his struggle on myself and it is just so hard to not get freaked about not being able to meet these needs. Even when the performance stuff is medically based.
Of course, I think I have to solve all the world's problems.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 10, 2004, at 0:39:09
In reply to Re: help for painful intercourse » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on September 10, 2004, at 0:14:24
I certainly did find it triggering. Before we got some help, I caught myself thinking *I* was actually the cause of his problems- for not being as young and sexy as I once was, (etc.) It's helped us a lot to have a doctor we can both see and confide in. He's also helped us face the realities of what prostate cancer can do to a man's sexual desire and ability- to lower our expectations some, and, most of all, to enjoy what we still can have together. I think the doctor (a specialist in physically-caused sexual dysfunction) helped most of all. He has had so much experience, and gave us a clear and very supportive message, that, while my husband had been through a serious illness (surgery followed by radiation), all was not lost. Shifting away a bit from performance-oriented sex to a more Tantric kind has also helped take a lot of the pressure off him. I love it because it emphasizes closeness
Posted by lucy stone on September 10, 2004, at 5:52:55
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist *trigger?*, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 21:51:49
> I'm not far behind you. Forties. With same guy for 25+ years, married over ten.
>
> But my problems are so very basic. I couldn't kiss my dates back when I was dating because kissing felt like being smothered. My now husband was the only exception. But years into our relationship that smothering fear came back. Touching is an irritant. Intercourse is painful.
>
> And trying to do anything to make any of it better *feels* like I'm being a facilitator to my own... Oh never mind. But the upshot is that I sabotage any attempts on my part to make things any better.
>
> With that level of dysfunction and that much resistance to change, this latest effort is also doomed to failure and I might as well give up and cancel and save myself the money and stress.
>
I'm not fond of being kissed, even by my husband, but it sounds like you are more adverse to it than I am. I also don't find sexual touching particularly arousing unless I am doing the touching because of my control issues. That's where a vibrator helps us, he can do the stimulating without directly touching me. Dysfunctional, I know. I didn't say it was perfect, just better. You could get the surgery your gyn recommended to help with the painful intercourse. I'm resonably certain that she could find a way to code it that would make the insurance company pay. Do you think your T could help you with the resistance to change at all? I have told my T that sometimes I feel like giving up on the whole sex thing altogether and he says of course that's an option but I can tell he doesn't think it's one I should exercise. He wants me to live a fuller life in all ways and sex is part of that. If you T could help with the resistance the sex therapist is much more likely to be able to help the dysfunction.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 10, 2004, at 9:14:47
In reply to Re: In defense of Male Therapist *trigger?*, posted by lucy stone on September 10, 2004, at 5:52:55
Posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 11:42:36
In reply to Dinah, I hope this endeavor helps! (nm), posted by gardenergirl on September 10, 2004, at 9:14:47
My therapist withdrew his support for the endeavor after discovering that I had absolutely no intention of discussing ego states at all. I was planning to discuss the meat of the matter, but not use those words, by saying "Intellectually I know that ...., but I can't stop feeling ...." To me, that's the same thing and I don't get what the big deal is.
But he says it's leading her to believe that she is dealing with one thing (ambivilance) instead of something completely different (a different attitude towards sexuality between two ego states that are neither of them the slightest bit ambivilant). I don't understand why that's important.
So I called and left a message to that effect. Well, not that I don't understand why it's an important distinction, but the ego state stuff. And told her I would completely understand if she didn't want to deal with such nonsense. Not that I put it exactly that way, of course. :) But she'll likely bail and the point will be moot.
And my therapist isn't as stupid as he sounded last evening. He did note the timing and guess that part of the intent was to lessen the shameful dependence on him, tho he put it differently of course.
So unless you hear otherwise, my sex experiment is likely over before it begins.
Posted by tabitha on September 10, 2004, at 12:45:54
In reply to Quite probably over before it begins, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 11:42:36
this may be a dumb question, but why don't you want to talk about ego states with her?
Posted by Poet on September 10, 2004, at 13:10:14
In reply to Quite probably over before it begins, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 11:42:36
Hi Dinah,
Maybe she'll leave ego states out of it? It sounds like your therapist is trying to tell your potential sex therapist how she should work with you. Shouldn't the sex therapist determine that?
Just a thought.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:26
In reply to Re: Quite probably over before it begins » Dinah, posted by Poet on September 10, 2004, at 13:10:14
And probably need to lie down for a bit. But the overview is that my regular therapist thinks *all* therapists deserve to work with full information and that I would be misleading her particularly in this case because the resistance and fear, etc. is particularly related to ego states. He also thinks sex therapy just wouldn't work under those conditions.
Seems like the sex therapist agrees. She just called me back. Said she was "willing" to see me Wednesday as scheduled, wouldn't require that I actually talk about ego states as she thinks she understands what I mean, but would require that I sign a release allowing her to talk to xxx so that they could decide if it was in my best interests to continue on with her. There was a note of extreme caution in her voice that let me know the conclusion is pretty much foregone. Especially since my therapist didn't seem to keen on the idea today.
People just don't want to get involved in anything with ego states involved. It's scary to them. This is why I try to keep it a secret. My therapist is ok with it, but most therapists would run incontinently from the merest mention. H*ll, mine would have too, if he had known what he was taking on.
Sigh. So my fears of rejection over this issue are yet again confirmed. And my therapist wonders why I feel so much shame about it.
I'm going to bed.
Unless someone's able to meet me in Open to divert me until my therapist calls back, goodness only knows when. I'm trying to decide if it's even worth the bother. I imagine she doesn't want to take the time to talk to my therapist until I've forked over a fee. Because otherwise I can't imagine why she wants to go through the charade of seeing me before rejecting me.
Posted by Poet on September 10, 2004, at 13:58:14
In reply to I'm feeling sick and dizzy, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:26
All you wanted to do was help yourself and you end up feeling bad about yourself. Something is not right here and I don't think it's with you.
I can hang with you in open and try to divert you with stories of my worst job interviews or whatever I can think of that doesn't involve therapy. Or take a nap with Harry, I think he has healing properties.
Poet
Posted by partlycloudy on September 10, 2004, at 14:18:51
In reply to I'm feeling sick and dizzy, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:26
Posted by partlycloudy on September 10, 2004, at 14:45:36
In reply to I'm in open (nm), posted by partlycloudy on September 10, 2004, at 14:18:51
Can't get the darn thing to work and I'm nervous to try it at work. I'm here, though.
Posted by JenStar on September 10, 2004, at 16:38:44
In reply to I'm feeling sick and dizzy, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:26
hi Dinah,
I'm sorry about this muddle you're in! I have no advice to offer; just my sympathies.I had to laugh when I read the line about "running incontinently" -- now there's a mental image for you! :)
I hope that the T gives it a chance, regardless of whether or not ego states are up for discussion. Maybe it would turn out GREAT? Hopefully it can't hurt to try it, right? I suppose it COULD hurt, in the sense that you might get exhausted and mentally drained and sad...but it's something so new. I give you a lot of credit for even having the courage to pursue this! :)
I was thinking about what your T said, along the lines of "all T's need to work with full information." I might disagree with him on what constitutes full information, and when it's needed.
When you started seeing HIM, there was no previous person to sit down and share notes and impressions, right? He had to build his knowledge of you from YOU, not a notebook?
Why shouldn't this other doctor do the same thing -- build an impression of YOU from meeting you, and not allow herself to be colored by xxx's impressions (which might be highly accurate, since you've been seeing him so long, but still!)
I know that professionals don't like to work in parallel to each other without talking because they're worried, perhaps, about reaching grossly different conclusions or steering you in a different direction.
But if a person could form such a different opinion if they didn't have notes to go on, wouldn't it be worth finding that out?
This is going to be a totally different scenario, but here's an example from my life of how professional conversing "behind the scenes" can color an impression:
One time a group of us at work were interviewing new-hires in an engineering team. One manager came up to a group of us and whispered, "Oh my god! The son of XXX manager is interviewing! We should all give him special attention and really listen to what he's saying, in case XXX wants to make a fuss if we don't hire him. He's kind of stupid but XXX really wants him to have a chance. I thought he was dull and didn't show creativity." He also continued on to tell us "Oh, and the other person? YYY applicant? She's kind of unstable and I think she got a DUI once. I heard her talking to someone on the phone and it didn't sound good. Just letting you know to probe for stability and stuff when you talk to her."
Naturally I coulnd't forget these things, even though I tried! It ended up that neither of the two got hired. I'm relatively sure it's because they were not qualified, but it's possible that the 'whispers' had something to do with it.
I know that's not a direct parallel at ALL. I just think that sometimes -- when people share thoughts BEFORE allowing each to make their own assessment -- it hinders individual and creative thought.
I don't know if that made sense or if it's in any way useful...just blurting out my thoughts.
Please keep us updated!
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on September 10, 2004, at 16:50:57
In reply to Re: I'm feeling sick and dizzy » Dinah, posted by JenStar on September 10, 2004, at 16:38:44
hi Dinah,
me again! Hey, I truly believe that YOU are the best person capable of determining whether it's "in your best interests" to see xxx, the other T, or both.I know they obviously have your care at the top of their minds, and they want to make decisions that will help you. But still, isn't it kind of presumptuous for two people to confer and make a decision like that without including you in it? I mean, you're a fully functioning adult -- a very intelligent and insightful one -- I might add!
I know it's probable that I'm reflecting my own insecurities and neuroses onto your situation (and I'm sorry for that!) It just seems that YOU should be the one making that choice with them. Am I totally off base here? I know that the situation is probably a lot more complex than I realize, and I apologize if I'm acting callous here or brusque.
I hope this all works out for the best, whatever that situation is! :)
JenStar
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 10, 2004, at 17:48:44
In reply to I'm feeling sick and dizzy, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:26
You seem to have gone from planning to take a wonderful step to losing all confidence in it- all in 24 (or less hours)- I feel so sad to hear it. I don't think an ego state disorder is in any way a contra-indication for sex or marital therapy. I feel I'm sort of one of PB's poster girls for ego state disorders- or dissociative disorders- just because I've been trying to post honestly about it here for more than a year. During that time, my husband and I have had sex therapy -mainly, but of course not entirely, to deal with the aftermath of his surgery and radiation for prostate cancer. It helped us a LOT, and. I think the thing about ego state disorders is that you have hidden, mostly unconscious cut-off feeling states from childhood. In day-to-day life, they don't ever make you seem like *another* person. I'm considered very reliable- always the *same*, almost to a fault, by the people who know me best. But inside, the feeling states are disconnected from one another- and from the adult conscious me. They cause me to often feel fearful and sad; it takes a lot of energy to keep them out of consciousness- all of my therapy is aimed at getting them into consciouness, and also truly validated by my analyst. That seems to be the key to having them become more integrated with *me*, and to get to where they stop causing so much pain. But, getting back to the sex therapy, my ego state disorder didn't interfere one bit with it- we benefitted tremendously as a couple and are extremely happy to have done it. I don't see any reason why you couldn't explore getting the kind of individual therapy you want. I actually can't understand your T's viewpoint on it at all. I hope you'll continue to be guided by your own intuition on what's best for you. Maybe two years ago, when I first met you here, it would have been too early to do it, but you've changed a LOT since then. How can it possibly hurt to try? From experience, I can tell you that the good sex therapists are very respectful of their clients; they go slowly and carefully, and pay a lot of attention to everyone's individual situations and realities
Posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 19:03:11
In reply to Re: I'm feeling sick and dizzy » JenStar, posted by JenStar on September 10, 2004, at 16:50:57
I had Dr. Bob remove the name I accidentally revealed in my post. I hope you don't mind. :)
I understand my therapist's point, because he's doing a careful balancing act. He's aware that there's a fair amount of internal conflict over the topic of sex in general and going to a sex therapist in particular. So he's trying to protect me and at the same time validate any steps forward I want to make. I don't make his job easy.
He was in favor of it last night, but after hearing more, he just didn't think this was the right time.
I'm more than a bit angry, even though I understand the difficult position he's in. He says he would feel obligated to tell the other therapist that there was a significant degree of internal conflict. So what he says is going to come across as sounding like a thumbs down. She's not willing to see me without speaking to him. She actually said that at the beginning, too, although then she was talking about speaking to him at some point. Now that point is now. I can't imagine that she would be willing to go forward if he thinks it's not a good idea.
Posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 20:01:20
In reply to Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 10, 2004, at 17:48:44
I'm really happy to hear that you've noticed a difference, Pfinstegg. :)
Part of that difference is, ironically, identifying the ego states. It sounds like a step back, but it actually enabled me to be far more stable by helping me realize what's going on in my reactions, and by allowing each part to be more purposeful in its being "out", I suppose there's no better way of putting it. Although I wish there was.
I think my experience is different from yours. I think my experience is different from anyone in the known universe's. :( That's why I'm sometimes sure I can't exist as I know myself.
You said "I think the thing about ego state disorders is that you have hidden, mostly unconscious cut-off feeling states from childhood." At one point, the ego state was subconscious and definitely cut off. My awareness of it was minimal. But that has changed substantially and I'm the more stable for it.
You said "In day-to-day life, they don't ever make you seem like *another* person.". That isn't my experience. I want to be clear. I'm not claiming to have DID. I'm fully co-conscious and I have no lost time, no amnesia. And I sort of hate to say another person because it sounds so theatrical. But if I'm to follow your example of honesty, I'd have to say that it does make me seem like another person. The differences aren't enormously noticeable in day to day life. For one thing, both ego states spring from the same base source which naturally gives them common features. Both ego states are excessively worried about being good, both are rather conventional, there's no Eve White/Eve Black or Sybil thing going on. No one is going to note my ego state changes. For another thing, both because my emotional self doesn't like work and because it's difficult for my emotional self to type or read, there is a fair amount of consistency of which ego state is present at work and other similar situations. But given all those caveats and many more besides, I'd still probably have to say that in certain situations it's clear that I can seem like "another person" and that I certainly view myself that way. It mostly comes up when attitudes or likes and dislikes or world view is discussed. Most people probably just interpret it as capriciousness. But I'm not really changeable, each ego state is consistent. It's the ego states that change. A Babble friend was the first and only to notice it without my saying anything (which I rarely do). She was distressed by how different I was in my attitudes than how I usually was, and was worried about me. So I told her (which is something I don't generally announce).
So for example, my emotional self likes and trusts my therapist. My rational self thinks he's a money-obsessed hack and that it's enormously dangerous to be dependent or attached. Or, to the point in this discussion, my rational self thinks sex may not be as much fun as reading, but if I'm going to do it, it just as well be as pleasant as possible. While my emotional self thinks sex is a violation, is absolutely terrified, and sees any attempt to make sex more comfortable as facilitation, betrayal, procuring, etc. and is met with extreme anger.
My therapist gets extremely frustrated at my refusal to work cooperatively with myself. But when goals are so wildly divergent, how can you cooperate?
Since my emotional self is so distressed at the idea of sex therapy, my therapist thinks it's a bad idea, and moreover one unlikely to work because the problem isn't going to be addressed at its source. But he has made no real headway in discovering the source of my resistance, and I was hoping that a sex therapist would have more insight. I wasn't planning to go there and ask for positions or techniques. I was planning to go and ask about attitudes and fears and why it may be that I have these attitudes so that I can better address them. I was hoping a sex therapist would have special expertise and insight into the area that my therapist as a non-expert and a man to boot, wouldn't have. I am sorely disappointed that he isn't helping me in this endeavor. Well, maybe not disappointed. Disappointed would imply that I expected better from him. Angry.
Posted by Aphrodite on September 10, 2004, at 20:34:41
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg, posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 20:01:20
You described your situation so very well. You have remarkable insight into your situation. I am continually amazed and impressed with your analytical skills. I understand your anger about your therapist's lack of support. I don't see how it is any different than have a primary care physician who could certainly treat you for your seasonal allergies, but why not consult an allergist? The allergist will do specialized testing, usually has more insight into the causes and treatments, and can supplement what your pcp does, and there are no territorial issues involved. Maybe that is too simple of an analogy. Still, your stark description of your emotional reactions leads me to believe that it is well worth exploring with an expert. Should you ask your therapist why he hasn't been able to help you get to the root of it? Usually, if something is beyond their expertise, they refer the patient. Sorry your experiencing this roadblock in your quest to heal yourself. (((Dinah)))
Posted by Dinah on September 10, 2004, at 20:53:02
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg » Dinah, posted by Aphrodite on September 10, 2004, at 20:34:41
Thanks, Aphrodite. I suppose it comes from my penchant for excessive naval gazing, but it *has* helped. I'm the sort of person who is way more comfortable when I thoroughly understand something, not excluding myself.
I hate to be excessively hard on the guy, even if I am angry. I was really upset this morning, crying and stuff, about the sex therapy appointment. And I was also angry with him for his support of the idea. So if he supports the idea, I'm going to be angry with him on one level. If he opposes the idea, I'm going to be angry with him on another. Throw in his own (in my view misguided) belief that it is important for every single mental health provider who comes into contact with me to know about ego states, and he's in a difficult position.
In some ways I think he's more likely to support the scared part, because that's the part that goes to therapy. In some ways I think he's more likely to support the rational part, because he agrees that sex should be... oh what did he say? Rich and rewarding part of the human experience or something like that.
Posted by 64Bowtie on September 11, 2004, at 3:17:29
In reply to Drat, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2004, at 13:16:58
> Hit submit instead of revise.
>
> What I wanted to ask is if it was possible to get specialized assistance in the way I'm interested in getting it? Does anyone have any experience with sex therapy that is purely theoretical?<<<(((Dinah))),
<<<In the psychology department when I was an undergrad, we could take 2 semesters, both taught by a husband/wife professor team. The husband was Dr. Nathan Liskey who as I remember wrote the text for the course. My "grey-matter" has misplaced his wifes first name. She Had a master's in Social Work. Anyway, academics might be a place to look. Academics happens online these days, so czek it out. There are over 16,000 "brick & mortor" colleges and universities, and many have online extension courses and classes available these days. The difference would be in the slant you would get that could guide you on how you might help others as well as yourself; a tangent sorta view.
Take care....
Rod
Posted by Dinah on September 11, 2004, at 8:54:53
In reply to Theoretical Human Sexuality Study » Dinah, posted by 64Bowtie on September 11, 2004, at 3:17:29
Posted by Dinah on September 11, 2004, at 11:01:21
In reply to Re: Sex therapy » Dinah, posted by tabitha on September 10, 2004, at 0:12:32
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 11, 2004, at 11:07:39
In reply to Oh, I'll go and see what happens I guess. (nm), posted by Dinah on September 11, 2004, at 11:01:21
Posted by vwoolf on September 11, 2004, at 16:50:36
In reply to Dinah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 10, 2004, at 17:48:44
Dinah it sounds to me as if they are trying to bully you, as if they think that they know more than you about yourself, and won't let you decide. As if you were a child. It sounds wrong to me. Go with your gut feelings about this, and allow them to talk to each other when you are ready and only then.
Posted by Dinah on September 13, 2004, at 7:43:53
In reply to Oh, I'll go and see what happens I guess. (nm), posted by Dinah on September 11, 2004, at 11:01:21
I haven't the money to waste on a single session that will probably be spent taking history anyway. I'll tell her I'll reschedule when I feel my therapist is more on board.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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