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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Pantt on September 1, 2004, at 11:11:43
I had an analyst once who told me I castrated him. Then he died. NOT of castration by the way.
Is it my fault if he can't help me and am I supposed to feel guilty because he feels helpless?
It's unlikely that I could bring myself to leave him. But should I just give up on therapy and spend the time talking about football and politics and the weather which happens frequently.
Posted by Dinah on September 1, 2004, at 11:39:43
In reply to My therapist says I make him feel helpless, posted by Pantt on September 1, 2004, at 11:11:43
It just means you're challenging, that's all. All we interesting clients make our therapists feel helpless at times. It's part of our job. Just think if all they had were the slam dunk cases. They'd get bored silly.
So why do you think you're ending up talking about superficial things so much. And did you ask him why you're difficult? I was difficult to my therapist because... Well, there were many reasons. The easiest is that I'm stubborn as a mule and totally resistant to change. He figured out that the proper technique to dealing with that was to be agreeable and not to fight me. With the opposition removed, my stubbornness moves to the direction he wants it to move. The other was that he found it difficult to connect to me emotionally. I was attached to him, but it was so well hidden that he didn't have a clue and he was frustrated at my constant rejections of any offers of relationship.
A good therapist can overcome most obstacles, but you need to work with him to figure out how best to proceed. It was a long hard struggle, but my therapist and I eventually developed a good working alliance, although I still frustrate him a *lot*.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 1, 2004, at 15:59:24
In reply to My therapist says I make him feel helpless, posted by Pantt on September 1, 2004, at 11:11:43
It is up to your T to realize he is not helping you and refer you on to someone who he thinks can. He should have no qualms about this if he has your best interest at heart.
You mention you don't think you could leave him. Assuming you have a co-payment, do you think it is worth your money and time to come talk to him about football and weather? Not to talk about what is bothering you? Do you feel like you may be just treading water?
Does he talk to you about treatment goals? My T and I go over them once a month as well as discuss any progress or setbacks. This I feel is very important and lets me know he is taking our therapy very seriously. Do you feel like he has a plan of treatment for you? Can you ask him?
Posted by Pantt on September 2, 2004, at 18:10:12
In reply to Re: My therapist says I make him feel helpless, posted by Miss Honeychurch on September 1, 2004, at 15:59:24
> It is up to your T to realize he is not helping you and refer you on to someone who he thinks can. He should have no qualms about this if he has your best interest at heart.
I get the idea that he thinks I'm hopeless. And that I should be grateful that he's keeping me company. He says the kind of treatment I need doesn't exist. But other times he says I should find a therapist closer to where I live but that he doesn't know anyone over here.
>
> You mention you don't think you could leave him. Assuming you have a co-payment, do you think it is worth your money and time to come talk to him about football and weather? Not to talk about what is bothering you? Do you feel like you may be just treading water?He never charged me the co-payment and he rarely even bothers to file the insurance anymore. I feel more like I'm walking underwater than treading it.
>
> Does he talk to you about treatment goals? My T and I go over them once a month as well as discuss any progress or setbacks. This I feel is very important and lets me know he is taking our therapy very seriously. Do you feel like he has a plan of treatment for you? Can you ask him?No. I used to have treatment plans because the insurance required it but they were done by a social worker I never met. I saw them because I asked to see my records. Truthfully I was very upset by them because I felt he had violated my privacy by discussing my case with someone else without my permission. Now when I ask for a treatment plan he tells me to write my own treatment plan.
I guess the good things about him are that we have years of shared history. And he does come through in emergencies-when I was dealing with family crises and deaths etc. The thought of even sitting down and going through an intake interview is enough to keep me from trying someone else.
I've seen other therapists too before and during the time I've known him without any success so maybe it's just not going to work for me.
Maybe I should just forget it and run off and join a commune or something ( Oh wait I tried that too and it didn't help either ;)Maybe this is just as good as it gets.
But it annoys me that he says I MAKE him feel anything. What happened to the old therapy speak rule about being responsible for your own feelings? And he also says he's afraid for me and that makes me feel like he does still care about me and maybe he is just withdrawing because it's hard to watch my life becoming smaller and smaller.
Posted by Pantt on September 2, 2004, at 18:13:42
In reply to Re: My therapist says I make him feel helpless » Pantt, posted by Dinah on September 1, 2004, at 11:39:43
well challenging has a nicer ring than castrating anyway:)
but we do both seem bored most of the time.
he says he isn't so maybe it's just me or maybe he's being polite.
Posted by Susan47 on September 4, 2004, at 23:03:38
In reply to Re: My therapist says I make him feel helpless, posted by Pantt on September 2, 2004, at 18:13:42
Hi Pantt, I hope you don't mind me jumping into the conversation here ... (if you do you can quit reading I guess:))
To me it sounds like your therapist is feeling pretty helpless about his ability to help you change things; maybe he's even angry, I don't know. Do therapists get angry?
Posted by pantt on September 6, 2004, at 11:09:50
In reply to Re: My therapist says I make him feel helpless, posted by Susan47 on September 4, 2004, at 23:03:38
Thanks for adding your impression it agrees with mine. I know he's angry and also passive aggressive. We've discussed it but it doesn't really change things. I think he realizes he is passive aggresive more than that he is being overtly angry aka snarling at me sometimes. We became friends over the years and I think it is difficult to become patient/therapist again after that happens.
I'm not willing to give him up. We're like an old married couple squabbling with each other all the time. Which reminds me of Ann Landers famous question, are you better off with or without him? And I am better off with him. I say that without hesitation.
There is a possibility of seeing someone else while still having contact with him but the times I tried that I ended up spending a lot of time discussing each therapist with the other and also feeling caught in a tug of war between them and I didn't like that feeling at all.
I really feel old today like I've waited too long and tried and failed too many times. Maybe this is all there is and I just don't have the grace to settle for it instead of wanting more help still. I know I've had more therapy in my lifetime than most people here and I still feel like I haven't even begun to live in the real world whatever that is.
> Hi Pantt, I hope you don't mind me jumping into the conversation here ... (if you do you can quit reading I guess:))
> To me it sounds like your therapist is feeling pretty helpless about his ability to help you change things; maybe he's even angry, I don't know. Do therapists get angry?
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2004, at 11:13:35
In reply to Re: Angry therapist, posted by pantt on September 6, 2004, at 11:09:50
How long have you been with your therapist?
I've been with mine for nine years, and I sometimes get that old shoe long time married feeling. But it's a nice feeling of mutual understanding and acceptance, not a bad feeling. And he is still able to function effectively as a therapist. Perhaps because he also has been a very effective keeper of boundaries over the years.
Is your therapist still effective as a therapist for you?
Posted by pantt on September 6, 2004, at 11:39:58
In reply to Re: Angry therapist » pantt, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2004, at 11:13:35
I don't know. I think he is keeping me stable but he doesn't seem able to help me change.
We have times that the relationship is just warm and comfortable and it's good to have someone that is so Known to me. I don't think I could ever trust anyone but him. But in a way that means the therapy failed because I would want to be able to trust others that was a goal of therapy.
We had some confused boundaries along the way and you can't ever really go back I don't think.
In a lot of ways he saved my life. It's just that I wanted so much more from life than just survival.
He asked me last week if I thought we could rebuild the relationship we used to have and I told him no because I was angry but really you can't go back again. Is there some way to make a new relationship that can be productive? I don't know. The last time I changed doctors I ended up in the hospital and I don't want that to happen again.
Posted by Dinah on September 6, 2004, at 11:50:35
In reply to Re: Angry therapist » Dinah, posted by pantt on September 6, 2004, at 11:39:58
It seems like you're not in a good place with him right now. Yes, I think it's possible to rebuild any relationship if both people are willing to work on it. But there might come a time when that's not the best option for you.
It sounds like he's not averse to adjunct therapy. Perhaps you could add some goal oriented short term therapy that is specific in its content. For example, cognitive behavior therapy that is specifically oriented to helping you expand your social world and find the impediments that keep you from doing it. Do you have social anxiety? I am constantly amazed when I rediscover that I *do* have social anxiety, because I'm not the tiniest bit shy. I think there are CBT therapies designed for that problem.
And since you discovered that discussing one therapist with the other was counterproductive, you could keep the adjunct therapy on track with its objectives, and not stray into discussing your current therapy.
Posted by Susan47 on September 6, 2004, at 20:44:30
In reply to Re: Angry therapist » pantt, posted by Dinah on September 6, 2004, at 11:50:35
Pantt, what're the confused boundaries you mentioned?
Posted by pantt on September 8, 2004, at 18:37:02
In reply to Re: Angry therapist, posted by Susan47 on September 6, 2004, at 20:44:30
I found out last night that he has been lying to me about not being married. NOT refusing to discuss his marital status but actually telling me he wasn't married. He discussed his divorce with me at length (I know Boundary Violation) the time it was supposed to have occurred. I asked him why he was still wearing his ring and he said it was so people wouldn't be asking questions and trying to set him him up with someone new! I was concerned that he was not accepting the reality of his divorce and expended a great deal of sympathy on him. That was several years ago.
I saw his name listed Dr and Mrs_____ on a list of members of an organization and called and asked him what was going on. First he wouldn't answer me and then he said yes he was married and then he told me he was just saying he was married to see what I would say and that he wasn't. Then he said yes he really was but I couldn't ask him any questions. I asked him anyway if it was anyone I knew. Last year one of his other patients told me he was married to the MSW who had the other office in his building which he had denied at the time . Then he said well you met my first wife (which I did several times Boundary Violations I know I know). I asked him if he meant he remarried her? (I asked about her awhile back and he said he hadn't seen her in a couple of years.) Then he was back to I am not allowed to ask questions.
It's no use telling me to leave I all ready know that but it's easier said than done.
Posted by Susan47 on September 8, 2004, at 20:10:49
In reply to Re: Angry lying therapist, posted by pantt on September 8, 2004, at 18:37:02
I'm not finished reading your post and my jaw is on my knees. You must've suspected something was *off* with the ring business. Did he think you were stupid?
Posted by Susan47 on September 8, 2004, at 20:14:29
In reply to Re: Angry lying therapist, posted by pantt on September 8, 2004, at 18:37:02
Pantt, I wouldn't tell you to leave; I know how painful and scary that is; worse than knowing your therapist lies to you.
That poor guy sounds so confused.
Posted by Susan47 on September 8, 2004, at 20:16:31
In reply to Re: Angry lying therapist, posted by Susan47 on September 8, 2004, at 20:14:29
of the doubt above; I just mean honestly, he really does sound confused. Why the he** can't he stick to one story? I sure as he** wouldn't want to be his wife, I feel sorry for her; she probably has no clue he lies about their relationship. Yuckety yuck yuck yuck.
Posted by Susan47 on September 8, 2004, at 20:18:04
In reply to Sorry P I'm not giving him sympathy or the benefit, posted by Susan47 on September 8, 2004, at 20:16:31
Posted by pantt on September 9, 2004, at 9:34:13
In reply to Pantt how old is this guy? Could it be a midlife? (nm), posted by Susan47 on September 8, 2004, at 20:18:04
Nearly sixty. Yes definitely midlife or some kind of crisis. I hope it isn't something organic. Thanks for your responses. It feels really humiliating and frightening at the same time.It brings up so many complicated and competing feelings that I don't know what to believe. And there is nobody in the "real" world that I could talk to about this. He is the one I go to for reality checks etc. And it doesn't just make me doubt what is going on now, it makes me wonder if anything I ever thought about him was true or if our relationship was an illusion-I guess it shouldn't matter if it helped me and in the beginning it really made a difference. I felt like he was the first person that I had ever even been in the same room with after a world of being apart and alone. That was such a miracle and it makes me sad if it was just an illusion and he was lying or manipulating me consciously back then too.
I don't know how to cope with this. After my beloved dog died I nearly fell apart and I spent 30 minutes a day writing everything I remembered about her in a notebook to try and help me cope. Last night I bought another notebook to do the same with him. The problem is I'm not sure if he is gone or changed or just never even was there.
Again thanks for listening, this isn't the sort of thing you can talk about to most people and I don't have any people anyway...oops heading for self pity city time to sigh off
Posted by Susan47 on September 9, 2004, at 11:20:15
In reply to Re: Pantt how old is this guy? Could it be a midlife?, posted by pantt on September 9, 2004, at 9:34:13
Gosh don't think you're feeling sorry for yourself. What you're going through and the stuff you're finding out about your poor confused-sounding therapist is really rough stuff.
I have a gut feeling he *has* been there for you (not that a gut feeling means much from overe here I guess). Let me continue with this gut feeling stuff, as it's the only thing I have to go on anyway, okay? Here's my feeling: he's doing the best he can and he likely cares about you very much, but he has his own life issues to deal with and I'll bet they get in the way. Maybe he has a secret desire to be cared for in the same way he cares about you. Sometimes I wonder how therapists cope with losing clients. I mean, it's their livelihood to care about clients; what happens when clients leave? Just a stray thought anyway. Maybe by telling you he wasn't married, he thought he could keep you around a bit longer. This is tough. Didn't you also say he wasn't charging you for sessions? See that seems a bit over the top too; maybe he fell into a trap the same way you might feel? I'm just throwing things out there so if something doesn't fit just discard it!
My personal experience is that when I was feeling as though I couldn't trust my therapist, I began to dislike him, and that made me extremely anxious; I had a few anxiety attacks (first in my life) where I thought I would die. I made a conscious decision to trust him no matter what. Most of the time that worked for me.
Psst... this is how hung up I was ... I drew a couple portraits of him and they're on the wall behind my computer screen so I look at his eyes a lot. They're his most prominent, caring feature. That helped me get over distrusting him. Anyway, now I'm just chewing the fat and not really being very helpful. What are your thoughts?
Posted by Susan47 on September 9, 2004, at 11:21:40
In reply to Re: Pantt how old is this guy? Could it be a midlife?, posted by pantt on September 9, 2004, at 9:34:13
Pantt I know what you mean about your therapist being the first person you were ever in the same room with after a world of being apart and alone. That was the miracle of my therapy too.
Posted by pantt on September 9, 2004, at 14:30:51
In reply to Re: Pantt how old is this guy? Could it be a midlife?, posted by Susan47 on September 9, 2004, at 11:21:40
You've really helped. I don't know what I'm going to do but I feel like I have a lot better perspective now and can stop and regroup. I really needed someone to validate my feelings as they say and also to understand what I meant by the things he gave me. I don't want to throw out all the good with the bad just because I am angry.
> Pantt I know what you mean about your therapist being the first person you were ever in the same room with after a world of being apart and alone. That was the miracle of my therapy too.
Posted by Susan47 on September 9, 2004, at 15:54:00
In reply to Thanks Susan » Susan47, posted by pantt on September 9, 2004, at 14:30:51
Posted by pantt on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:41
In reply to Re: Angry lying therapist, posted by pantt on September 8, 2004, at 18:37:02
I told him I was going to report him to my insurance company for fraud. But IM NOT GOING TOO. I mention that because I told him I posted on a self help site and I am afraid he is stalking me. I will not be coming back here to post. I will never go to another "therapist". He frightens me. I think he really is having some kind of breakdown or something. It just doesn't make any sense. He has done other things that were unethical with me too. Please don't try to guilt me into reporting him because I am not going too. I don't think he is doing therapy much anymore mainly medications so maybe he won't damage any one else. That's assuming he could find someone as vulnerable and stupid as me. I'm sorry. Thank you Susan. I am the loneliest woman in the world and even if I deserve what I got it still hurts You stopped and helped me and made me feel human again. Thank you.
Posted by Susan47 on September 10, 2004, at 15:13:37
In reply to That's not the only thing he has been lying about, posted by pantt on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:41
I just read your post and I know this is horrible for you but guess what? I'm going to give you advice I couldn't take myself: don't put all the responsibility on your therapist, okay? Please please please let him be human. I wish you could see me so my eyes could tell you how much this means. Yes, therapists are trained blah blah blah but I'm not a T so I don't know how effectively that is! I don't know what goes on in my T's life either, but I can guess it's like any other life. Sometimes he'll be okay and sometimes he won't. I'll never know which, when I talk to him or see him. But no matter what, I'm always looking up to him, relying on him, asking something from him. That has to be *so tough*.
Sometimes I think therapist has got to be one of the hardest professions. I have to go now, I just feel awful about my own ex-T. :(
Posted by Susan47 on September 10, 2004, at 15:15:24
In reply to That's not the only thing he has been lying about, posted by pantt on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:41
Gosh pantt, I hope you're still reading. Why don't you Babblemail me, that's a lot more private. Sorry if I ticked anybody off with my last post, it just kind of happened.
Posted by Susan47 on September 10, 2004, at 23:56:05
In reply to That's not the only thing he has been lying about, posted by pantt on September 10, 2004, at 13:36:41
I finally slowed down myself and re-read your post above; I misunderstood everything, didn't I? Could *you* be the one who's taking too much of the responsibility for his lying?
I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking clearly this morning. At all.
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