![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 175 to 199 of 228. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 14, 2005, at 8:40:18
In reply to RE: PEA » Larry Hoover, posted by Elroy on April 9, 2005, at 21:56:05
> Some excellent info there.
Thanks.
> Can easily see where Taurine would help with anxiety.
It works for me. At least I can say that with 100% assurance.
> Wonder how it would work with peripheral neuropathy type pains like Neurontin does?
>Gabapentin's role in suppressing pain associated with peripheral neuropathy has finally been sorted out. It hits a very specific spinal cord receptor, the alpha2-adrenoceptor (with specific subunits that I forget).
The spinal cord used to be thought of as something analogous to a telephone trunk line; nothing more than a bundle of parallel cables, and distribution network to the various peripheral tissues.
We now know that the spinal cord processes signals all by itself. It then makes a decision (a threshold is crossed or not) to notify the brain. Spinal processing is completely independent of the brain. There can be what are essentially feed-back loops that hyper-sensitize the peripheral nerves to pain stimuli.
You know what happens when you get a live microphone too near the speakers (or the volume is set too high)......you get that feedback screech. That's what happens to peripheral nerves, they go into spinal feedback overload.
Gabapentin breaks the feedback loop.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 14, 2005, at 9:11:35
In reply to RE: PEA » Larry Hoover, posted by gromit on April 10, 2005, at 1:13:58
> Larry,
>
> Thanks for the explanation of PEA, maybe I'm starting to get a hint of a clue now.I love questions. Don't worry about going over stuff again. That's how learning works. I am a teacher.
> > You sound like me, sort of. Pretty close, anyway. I haven't used meth or pot for years and years, though. Provigil did the same to me. Some days, really potent. Other days, nothing.
>
> It's been 20 years since I've used anything but pot, I quit that around 13 years ago but have backslid several times. I definately get something more out of it than a buzz, I feel almost normal and the "high" is more like a side effect I don't enjoy anymore. I remember you saying that you are fatigued in the daytime but can't sleep, this is exactly what is going on with me too.I'm still struggling to define this syndrome....to conceptualize within my understanding or normal biochemistry.
Whatever is happening, it is normal for us. What I mean is, it is a natural consequence of our prior experiences, the life that we have lived. We are here now, in this way, because.....but I don't know the because.
Gabapentin was prescribed to me for neuropathic pain, and it worked. It worked absolutely well. And right away, too.
Gabapentin has psychoactive effects, such that it is sometimes used in psychiatry. I looked at that, and thought, bonus! I take a neuropathy drug, and I get to do the psych experiment at the same time! It was always on my list of experiments....and now I'm doing it.
It is a bizarre drug. It gives me hope, and yet, it reduces my functionality. It's too soon to say, as I am not yet stable under its influence. But it may be part of my recovery. When I say recovery, I'm talking in terms of major determinants of functionality. I may be able now (or soon, anyway), to return to work. To leave my disability pension behind.
Up until now, I needed that safety net. It was inconceivable for me to exert myself towards work, without that safety net. I find myself not worrying about that net. We shall see.
> > You're going to have to experiment in the realm of stuff that works for anxiety.
>
> Well I don't think of myself as being anxious, in social situations yes but not usually otherwise. Maybe I'm blocking it out somehow, when I do get nervous about something it's guaranteed that I will fail. When I say "wired" for me this is usually a good thing.Anxiety and activation.....try considering them as synomyms, at least with respect to your mental state. How you experience this activation is not really the issue.....it's the effect on your energy budget that matters.
Sometimes my activation is emotionally charged, and I would then characterize it more as an anxious state, but that's a semantic distinction. In the end, the activation level is the issue for me.
> I'm already taking some of the stuff you mentioned, I do read your posts and if you say something is worth trying that's good enough for me. Taurine I haven't tried or Ashwagandha, niacinamide makes me more fatigued, maybe trying it at night with the magnesium would be better.
Try lowering the dose. When I say 500 mg, four times a day, that's the *maximum* safe dose (with respect to liver damage, safety factor included). Try 100 mg, and see how that is. Break your pills.
What got me interested in niacin metabolism led to my trial of Enada NADH, and niacinamide (a precursor of NADH), both essential for mitochondrial formation of ATP, the universal cellular energy source. Mitochondrial dysfunction is proven in chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, and in some depressives.
The spring I did that trial, I did not collapse into fatigue after a gruelling work cycle. Moreover, my pollen allergies and resultant asthma almost didn't exist that spring. I have had disabling (not an exaggeration) pollen allergies ever since puberty (thirty odd years now). I have never had a season without absolute need for heavy intervention. Not only prescription antihistamines, but heavy topical steroids..... Not that year.
Other stressors have kept me from developing on that discovery. I still have to figure out some details.....but this pain thing from the arm injury has been totally distracting. Maybe now I can get back to that other process of discovery and integration.
> Something calming might actually be good but I'm already so damned tired I try to avoid anything that makes it worse.
Dose. Timing. There are always variables to consider.
> When you mentioned "brain hum" you really got my attention, I've always had this sound or feeling like I was standing near electrical lines on a humid night. This is pretty much gone now but I didn't attribute it to fish oil, I've been taking 8000-10000 mg of cheap Costco brand for quite a while now.
I actually associate my brain hum with a restoration of functionality. I tend to get it when other measures of recovery are on the upswing. It is an imbalance in restorative processes, but not adverse in and of itself.
For example, if I take selegiline after noon, I will have brain hum at bedtime. Selegiline at 7 a.m. tends to have worn off by then.
If I take B-complex at 4 p.m., I will not sleep due to brain hum. If it take it in the a.m., I'll generally be okay.
It does get complex, but the alternative......being in that bad place......no, I'll take the complex management thing, any day.
> I guess what I meant to ask is what do those drugs do besides mess with dopamine? I have a strange intuitation it has something to do with endorphins but I just can't get my head around this stuff no matter how hard I try. The selegiline/DLPA combo is helping but it's not as effective as I was sure it would be. Still, I'm feeling better than I have for years.Repeat that last sentence, until it is engraved in your perception.
I can't give you a mechanism that leads from selegiline to endorphins, but I believe there is one.
> > Thanks for the concern. Gabapentin has helped dramatically with the nerve pain, although it's making me stupid as hell. Still no surgery date (over 15 months after I broke it).
>
> Well I'm glad you found something to relieve the pain, you sure don't sound stupid but I know what you mean.Stupid as in acting erroneously, as if without thinking, while simultaneously knowing I'm messing up. Simple example...I was cooking yesterday, and went to turn off the stove. My meal was ready. Instead of turning off that burner, I turned on another one. Now two burners are on, and the other one had a plate sitting on it. Just Homer Simpson moments like that. Forgetting how to spell simple words. It's a bizarre drug. I hope I get used to it, i.e. the adverse cognitive elements can be accomodated.
>
> Thanks
> RickAny time. And thanks for the validation.
Lar
Posted by world citizen on April 14, 2005, at 11:13:02
In reply to RE: PEA » Elroy, posted by Larry Hoover on April 14, 2005, at 8:40:18
Hey guys,I would caution anyone taking Gabapentin to take some variation of liver protective herbs (milk thistle, dandelion root,curcumin etc) as this drug if fairly liver toxic. There are estimated to be millions of undiagnosed cases of Hepatits C out there, I know that taking the Neurontin (which I found to be totally unpredictictable in its efficaciousness) injured my liver further. Source Naturals makes a very good supplement called Liver Guard. We can be pain/anxiety free (relatively, anyway) and still protect our overall health.
World Citizen
Posted by Sarah T. on April 16, 2005, at 22:54:40
In reply to RE: PHEOCHROMOCYTOMA » tealady, posted by Elroy on April 9, 2005, at 21:24:58
Hi Elroy,
I'm entering this thread in the middle, without having read many of the posts. If you don't mind discussing it, I was wondering whether you've had any pain or aching from the adrenal tumor. I'm assuming that the doctors still haven't told you what kind of adrenal tumor it is? Or, are they assuming that it is a pheochromocytoma?
Posted by Elroy on April 18, 2005, at 16:13:18
In reply to RE: PEA » Elroy, posted by Larry Hoover on April 14, 2005, at 8:40:18
Excellent info.
Am in process of ordering Taurine. Since GABA does not readily pass thru the BBB, can GABA be taken concuurent with Taurine? I find it interesting that there are numerous GABA receptor sites in other locations of the body that correspond with anxiety symptoms (stomach, lungs, etc.).
I have found that the Neurontin has helped quite a bit with my "peripheral neuropathy type" pains. I state it in those terms as they still have no idea what is going on (with hormones and neurotransmitters, physical symptoms, etc.). The major metropolitan medical center that I have been seeing for tests now has me scheduled next month for neurologiccal department testing...
Anyway, back to the Neurontin. Have you any personal infor concerning "Lyrica". Supposedly is like a "Super Neurontin" (lower doses, fewer side effects, much better effects???).... Apparently it was approved by the FDA last September but has still not been released on to the US market (though apparently has been available in many European countries for at least several months now)...
Elroy
x
x
x
x
> > Some excellent info there.
>
> Thanks.
>
> > Can easily see where Taurine would help with anxiety.
>
> It works for me. At least I can say that with 100% assurance.
>
> > Wonder how it would work with peripheral neuropathy type pains like Neurontin does?
> >
>
> Gabapentin's role in suppressing pain associated with peripheral neuropathy has finally been sorted out. It hits a very specific spinal cord receptor, the alpha2-adrenoceptor (with specific subunits that I forget).
>
> The spinal cord used to be thought of as something analogous to a telephone trunk line; nothing more than a bundle of parallel cables, and distribution network to the various peripheral tissues.
>
> We now know that the spinal cord processes signals all by itself. It then makes a decision (a threshold is crossed or not) to notify the brain. Spinal processing is completely independent of the brain. There can be what are essentially feed-back loops that hyper-sensitize the peripheral nerves to pain stimuli.
>
> You know what happens when you get a live microphone too near the speakers (or the volume is set too high)......you get that feedback screech. That's what happens to peripheral nerves, they go into spinal feedback overload.
>
> Gabapentin breaks the feedback loop.
>
> Lar
Posted by Elroy on April 18, 2005, at 17:06:57
In reply to RE: PHEOCHROMOCYTOMA » Elroy, posted by Sarah T. on April 16, 2005, at 22:54:40
Sorry that I haven't posted in a few days. Additional testing going on plus some home front activities....
Anyway, the testing revealed that it is NOT a pheo.
On one hand felt that was pretty good news... on the other hand I was sorely disappointed as I've been looking desperately for "The Answer" and really felt that this was it (had so many of the symptoms that it was unreal... except for the "malignant hypertension" whereas my BP fluctuated all over the place).
Yes, one of my symptoms was (is) what they call "flank pain"(lower left, just above and behind the left hipbone - the adrenal tumor is in the left adrenal gland). Comes and goes. Used to be very minor - more like an ache, but now is often a sharper pain. Endos insist that it is not only benign, but is NOT biologically active, so is not secreting anything or causing anything to be secreted.
What was amazing is that my adrenaline hormones came back as low normal to even BELOW normal. With a pheo those levels would have been greatly elevated. My dopamine levels were low normal, my epiniphrine levels were low normal and my norepinphrine levels were way BELOW normal!!! Yet my cortisol levels - while slowly coming down over the last four months - have been very elevated... back last September they were almost SIX times the normal maximum range. Testosterone levels were very low back last September also and have impproved only slightly even with testosterone replacement therapy.
That seems extremely peculiar. One would think that if the problem was related somehow to the adrenal problem, that you wouldn't see this type of variance (i.e., cortisol levels should have been depressed also).
I'm just getting more and more puzzled (as are the various specialists). With low ranges in these dopamine related hormones, I am planning on speaking with my psych doc about going onto low-dose selegiline (along with tyrosine and DLPA) in an effort to get those hormones back up to par.
I currently am not taking my anti-cortisol regimen as I have cortisol testing again next week, but will resume that regimen right afterwards.
Addressing individual aspects of "The Problem" is all that I (and the specialists) can think to do right now - while testing continues to see if a root cause problem can be identified....
X
X
X
X
> Hi Elroy,
>
> I'm entering this thread in the middle, without having read many of the posts. If you don't mind discussing it, I was wondering whether you've had any pain or aching from the adrenal tumor. I'm assuming that the doctors still haven't told you what kind of adrenal tumor it is? Or, are they assuming that it is a pheochromocytoma?
Posted by gromit on April 19, 2005, at 15:53:36
In reply to RE: PHEOCHROMOCYTOMA » Sarah T., posted by Elroy on April 18, 2005, at 17:06:57
> I'm just getting more and more puzzled (as are the various specialists). With low ranges in these dopamine related hormones, I am planning on speaking with my psych doc about going onto low-dose selegiline (along with tyrosine and DLPA) in an effort to get those hormones back up to par.
The combination of selegiline/DLPA and testosterone patches has been working well for me. For me the patches work much better than the gel, plus I was always worried about transfer to my wife or son. The shots work but it's a hassle going in every few weeks and I prefer a steady level anyway. I had been using the gel for 4-5 (guessing) months before starting selegiline and it was nothing like what I'm feeling now. Since switching to the patches it's even better.
So 10 mg of selegiline + 5 mg T patch daily is the best thing I've tried, my mood has not really improved but I do feel more focused and much better physically.
I hope your doctors can figure out what is going on. I can relate to how you're feeling, it's a strange thing to visit a doctor *hoping* they will find something physically wrong then being disappointed when they don't.
Rick
Posted by gromit on April 20, 2005, at 18:09:17
In reply to RE: PHEOCHROMOCYTOMA, posted by gromit on April 19, 2005, at 15:53:36
> So 10 mg of selegiline + 5 mg T patch daily is the best thing I've tried, my mood has not really improved but I do feel more focused and much better physically.
Gee, maybe I shouldn't have said anything. Today my doctor decided that it was unsafe to add anything to even 5 mg selegiline. He wanted to put me on prozac + zyprexa, like I need to be any more sleepy! We settled on 60 mg cymbalta and possibly adding an amphetamine later. This is supposed to be a less dangerous route than selegiline + whatever else? I feel like I'm the sane one and my doctors are nuts...
Rick
Posted by Elroy on April 21, 2005, at 20:59:30
In reply to Arghhh, posted by gromit on April 20, 2005, at 18:09:17
I think that you should print off some of the studies done on LOW DOSE selegiline and how it is NOT dangerous and how it is NOT an MOA-A inihibitor at those low levels (really anything below 15-20 mg daily).
QUOTE: "L-deprenyl is what good pharmaceuticals are all about. First it is exceptionally safe, second it protects and enhances mental function, mood and even libido, thirdly, it may even extend life. Imagine a safe agent that enhances both the quality and length of life." - Julian Whitaker M.D. - Health and Healing Newsletter, Whitaker Wellness Institute, Newport Beach, California. END QUOTE
QUOTE: Similarly, Birkmayer et al. reported benefit in an uncontrolled study in 102 outpatients and 53 inpatients with unipolar depression who received selegiline hydrochloride 5 to 10 mg daily in association with phenylalanine 250 mg daily- about 70% of these patients, in whom conventional antidepressants were not effective, were reported as having complete remission. END QUOTE
It sounds to me like he is listening primarily to a Big Pharm sales rep.
Maybe challenge him to provide the documentation / reviews / studies that shows selegiline to be dangerous at those levels LOW DOSE levels... combined with ANYTHING...
http://www.deprenyl.net/
http://qualitycounts.com/fpdeprenyl.html
http://smart-drugs.net/ias-deprenylJS.htm
http://www.deprenyl.info/
http://www.selegiline.com/
http://www.smart-drugs.com/ias-Info/ias-deprenyl.htm
http://www.selegiline.com/pea.html
http://www.selegiline.com/depplus.html
http://www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenyl.htmEven higher doses used in Parkinson cases are quite safe:
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/92/101837.htm
Heck, if it is dangerous - provably dangerous - at low dose levels - then I'd sure like to know the criteria showing that BEFORE my psych docv starts me on that. She's concerned that my levels of NE are so low and is looking at selegiline - along with either tyrosine or DLPA - to very gradually boost those levels back up. But if he's got documentation as to it's safety levels, well, I'd sure as heck like to know about them!
Anyway, would caution with Cymbalta (or Effexor) as both are known to create urinary tract inflammation or prostatitis type sensation problems. I had severe immediate reaction in that regard with Effexor and then with Cymbalta had similar reactions - just that Cymbalta took about ten days to manifest instead of just a couple days like with Effexor.
I'd compare this symptom list - for Cymbalta - with LOW DOSE selegiline....
http://www.prozactruth.com/cymbalta.htm#common
X
X
X
X> > So 10 mg of selegiline + 5 mg T patch daily is the best thing I've tried, my mood has not really improved but I do feel more focused and much better physically.
>
> Gee, maybe I shouldn't have said anything. Today my doctor decided that it was unsafe to add anything to even 5 mg selegiline. He wanted to put me on prozac + zyprexa, like I need to be any more sleepy! We settled on 60 mg cymbalta and possibly adding an amphetamine later. This is supposed to be a less dangerous route than selegiline + whatever else? I feel like I'm the sane one and my doctors are nuts...
>
>
> Rick
>
Posted by world citizen on April 22, 2005, at 0:49:35
In reply to Re: Arghhh » gromit, posted by Elroy on April 21, 2005, at 20:59:30
>
Well said Elroy!!!!!!!!!
World CitzenI think that you should print off some of the studies done on LOW DOSE selegiline and how it is NOT dangerous and how it is NOT an MOA-A inihibitor at those low levels (really anything below 15-20 mg daily).
>
> QUOTE: "L-deprenyl is what good pharmaceuticals are all about. First it is exceptionally safe, second it protects and enhances mental function, mood and even libido, thirdly, it may even extend life. Imagine a safe agent that enhances both the quality and length of life." - Julian Whitaker M.D. - Health and Healing Newsletter, Whitaker Wellness Institute, Newport Beach, California. END QUOTE
>
> QUOTE: Similarly, Birkmayer et al. reported benefit in an uncontrolled study in 102 outpatients and 53 inpatients with unipolar depression who received selegiline hydrochloride 5 to 10 mg daily in association with phenylalanine 250 mg daily- about 70% of these patients, in whom conventional antidepressants were not effective, were reported as having complete remission. END QUOTE
>
> It sounds to me like he is listening primarily to a Big Pharm sales rep.
>
> Maybe challenge him to provide the documentation / reviews / studies that shows selegiline to be dangerous at those levels LOW DOSE levels... combined with ANYTHING...
>
> http://www.deprenyl.net/
> http://qualitycounts.com/fpdeprenyl.html
> http://smart-drugs.net/ias-deprenylJS.htm
> http://www.deprenyl.info/
> http://www.selegiline.com/
> http://www.smart-drugs.com/ias-Info/ias-deprenyl.htm
> http://www.selegiline.com/pea.html
> http://www.selegiline.com/depplus.html
> http://www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenyl.htm
>
> Even higher doses used in Parkinson cases are quite safe:
>
> http://my.webmd.com/content/article/92/101837.htm
>
> Heck, if it is dangerous - provably dangerous - at low dose levels - then I'd sure like to know the criteria showing that BEFORE my psych docv starts me on that. She's concerned that my levels of NE are so low and is looking at selegiline - along with either tyrosine or DLPA - to very gradually boost those levels back up. But if he's got documentation as to it's safety levels, well, I'd sure as heck like to know about them!
>
> Anyway, would caution with Cymbalta (or Effexor) as both are known to create urinary tract inflammation or prostatitis type sensation problems. I had severe immediate reaction in that regard with Effexor and then with Cymbalta had similar reactions - just that Cymbalta took about ten days to manifest instead of just a couple days like with Effexor.
>
> I'd compare this symptom list - for Cymbalta - with LOW DOSE selegiline....
>
> http://www.prozactruth.com/cymbalta.htm#common
>
> X
> X
> X
> X
>
> > > So 10 mg of selegiline + 5 mg T patch daily is the best thing I've tried, my mood has not really improved but I do feel more focused and much better physically.
> >
> > Gee, maybe I shouldn't have said anything. Today my doctor decided that it was unsafe to add anything to even 5 mg selegiline. He wanted to put me on prozac + zyprexa, like I need to be any more sleepy! We settled on 60 mg cymbalta and possibly adding an amphetamine later. This is supposed to be a less dangerous route than selegiline + whatever else? I feel like I'm the sane one and my doctors are nuts...
> >
> >
> > Rick
> >
>
>
Posted by world citizen on April 23, 2005, at 23:34:58
In reply to Re: Arghhh » gromit, posted by Elroy on April 21, 2005, at 20:59:30
I'm eternally grateful to the poster that recomened Taurine! My PTSD has been rcently triggered and the hypervigilence keeps me from eating and sleeping. I'm proud to say that I took 500mgs of taurine, 2 Theanine-Serene (which also contains taurine), some B6, 500mgs of Vit. C and some simple carbs and within twenty minutes or so I started relaxing! At times I get so spazzed with this that my muscles really do go into spasm. My muscles are feeling better I'm not terrified and I'm hoping to sleep well tonight now that my back doesn't hurt!
Oh yeah. Elroy, this is especially for you.
http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/mcherald/2005/04/05/news/state/11314970.htm
This article is about the dude my son and I sued. He apparently lost his job right about the time my son and I signed the settlement agreement. Since we didn't sign a confidentiality agreement we feel that the Govnah' decided this guy could further tarnish his soiled reputation! HA! G.E. deserves him!
World Citizen!
Posted by gromit on April 24, 2005, at 19:15:26
In reply to Re: Arghhh » gromit, posted by Elroy on April 21, 2005, at 20:59:30
Hi Elroy,
Thanks for the links, I've read most of them I think but had a drive die a while back and lost quite a bit of stuff I'd saved. I was feeling pretty discouraged when I posted, it's not as bad as I made it sound.
He was willing to increase selegiline past the point where it's MAO-B selective, he doesn't think it's as effective as parnate or nardil. He said I could try those too but I'm at least going to hold out for the Ensam patch before I go down that road.
I'm not sure why he doesn't want to combine something else with a low dose, especially since during our first visit he said it was more useful as an augmentor. I really don't think it's a safety issue despite what he said, I think he just wanted to steer me in a different direction. I'll go along for now, he's a huge improvement over my last pdoc. Maybe Cymbalta at 60 mg will be the ticket. I've already tried it but at 30 mg and only for a month. He said there is a huge jump in response at 60.
I was a little out of sorts that day, although I confirmed the appointment the day before I still forgot about it until 15 min beforehand. I can't believe I actually made it, and then he caught me off guard. I wasn't prepared to argue to stay on it, I thought that was the plan.
Elroy have you checked with smi2le.biz lately? They just updated their site, here is a quote.
"Normally SMIČLE ships all products next business day except for Idebenone, Centrophenoxine, Creatine Monohydrate, L-theanine, R-lipoic acid (powder - we have capsules in stock) and Sulbutiamine, which are on hiatus until all back orders are fulfilled, and they have been removed from the order form."
I don't remember if you mentioned what you ordered, but the creatine I didn't get is on that list.
Not sure if I just missed it before but apparently smi2le means Space Migration... Intelligence Squared... Life Extension. I don't know if that makes any more sense but I was wondering.
Anyway thanks for the response and good luck with low dose deprenyl, I'm sure it will be a good experience. I can't think of one negative thing about it and I can't say the same of the other drugs I've tried.
Thanks,
Rick
Posted by Elroy on April 24, 2005, at 20:19:29
In reply to Re: Arghhh » Elroy, posted by gromit on April 24, 2005, at 19:15:26
smi2le seems to have gotten a new business manager to run things (a guy named Jeff). He has actually responded to a couple of my e-mails and informed me about the Idebenone and Sulbutiamine being on long-term backorder.
I have found that I have a very sensitive response to anything that increases NE levels... which is surprising seing as how my NE levels are so low.
One DLPA caplet of 500 mg was a definite increaser of anxiety and physical symptoms. Ditto with one 5mm mg caplet of the just the D version, just not as bad. Decided to go with the tyrosine.
I started out with one 500 mg tablet of Tyrosine... and had increased anxiety and physical symptoms. I cut it in half (250 mg now) and still had reactions (though somewhat lesser). I cut it in half again... and found that I could tolerate that.
Ditto with the Selegiline. 5mg tablet would cause increase in anxiety and physical symptoms, but cutting it in half (2.5 mg) was tolerated. Will have to slowly and gradually work up to therapeutic doses.
Once I get used to the 500 mg dose of tyrosine I then want to try the DLPA (again starting at lower doses).
When one's NE level is a 26 and the normal range is something like 80 to 520.... well, pretty obvious that something needs to be done.
What was interesting is that aerobic type exercises don't boost NE levels significantly. I can use a rebounder, stationary bike, elliptical machine and power walks and not have any reaction. But if I do any weight lifting or intensive calisthenics, within 2 - 4 hours later I have a reaction (increased anxiety, increased physical symptoms, etc.).
And, yes, same-same after sex (which is known to boost NE along with other hormones and neurotransmitters)... of course I just make sure and take a Xanax afterwards!
Actually I have found a lot of relief with using the Taurine. I am using it in combination with GABA (both bought in bulk powder). Along the lines of 1 to 1.5 gram Taurine with 1/2 to 3/4 gram of GABA. Seems to have allowed the cutting back of both the Xanax and Neurontin and the use of Ambien as a sleep aid rather than the Restoril.
X
X
X
X> Hi Elroy,
>
> Thanks for the links, I've read most of them I think but had a drive die a while back and lost quite a bit of stuff I'd saved. I was feeling pretty discouraged when I posted, it's not as bad as I made it sound.
>
> He was willing to increase selegiline past the point where it's MAO-B selective, he doesn't think it's as effective as parnate or nardil. He said I could try those too but I'm at least going to hold out for the Ensam patch before I go down that road.
>
> I'm not sure why he doesn't want to combine something else with a low dose, especially since during our first visit he said it was more useful as an augmentor. I really don't think it's a safety issue despite what he said, I think he just wanted to steer me in a different direction. I'll go along for now, he's a huge improvement over my last pdoc. Maybe Cymbalta at 60 mg will be the ticket. I've already tried it but at 30 mg and only for a month. He said there is a huge jump in response at 60.
>
> I was a little out of sorts that day, although I confirmed the appointment the day before I still forgot about it until 15 min beforehand. I can't believe I actually made it, and then he caught me off guard. I wasn't prepared to argue to stay on it, I thought that was the plan.
>
> Elroy have you checked with smi2le.biz lately? They just updated their site, here is a quote.
>
> "Normally SMIČLE ships all products next business day except for Idebenone, Centrophenoxine, Creatine Monohydrate, L-theanine, R-lipoic acid (powder - we have capsules in stock) and Sulbutiamine, which are on hiatus until all back orders are fulfilled, and they have been removed from the order form."
>
> I don't remember if you mentioned what you ordered, but the creatine I didn't get is on that list.
>
> Not sure if I just missed it before but apparently smi2le means Space Migration... Intelligence Squared... Life Extension. I don't know if that makes any more sense but I was wondering.
>
> Anyway thanks for the response and good luck with low dose deprenyl, I'm sure it will be a good experience. I can't think of one negative thing about it and I can't say the same of the other drugs I've tried.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Rick
>
Posted by Elroy on April 24, 2005, at 20:21:07
In reply to taurine, justice etc, posted by world citizen on April 23, 2005, at 23:34:58
Me too with the Taurine. Have found it to be very good along with GABA and a strong B complex vitamin for better absorption (preferably taken on an empty stomach).
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> I'm eternally grateful to the poster that recomened Taurine! My PTSD has been rcently triggered and the hypervigilence keeps me from eating and sleeping. I'm proud to say that I took 500mgs of taurine, 2 Theanine-Serene (which also contains taurine), some B6, 500mgs of Vit. C and some simple carbs and within twenty minutes or so I started relaxing! At times I get so spazzed with this that my muscles really do go into spasm. My muscles are feeling better I'm not terrified and I'm hoping to sleep well tonight now that my back doesn't hurt!
>
> Oh yeah. Elroy, this is especially for you.
>
> http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/mcherald/2005/04/05/news/state/11314970.htm
>
> This article is about the dude my son and I sued. He apparently lost his job right about the time my son and I signed the settlement agreement. Since we didn't sign a confidentiality agreement we feel that the Govnah' decided this guy could further tarnish his soiled reputation! HA! G.E. deserves him!
> World Citizen!
Posted by gromit on April 25, 2005, at 17:41:28
In reply to Re: Arghhh » gromit, posted by Elroy on April 24, 2005, at 20:19:29
> smi2le seems to have gotten a new business manager to run things (a guy named Jeff). He has actually responded to a couple of my e-mails and informed me about the Idebenone and Sulbutiamine being on long-term backorder.
I hope they can get it together, I've always had the gut feeling they have good intentions but are perhaps not very good at business/logistics.
> I have found that I have a very sensitive response to anything that increases NE levels... which is surprising seing as how my NE levels are so low.I don't find this that surprising, beer with me for a second. Say my normal level is middle of the road, conveniently 250. If I take something that raises it by 25, for *me* that might not be a big thing, it's subtle or maybe I don't even notice a 10% difference. If you have a level around 26 now you're talking about a huge jump, relatively. Enough of me talking out of my rear.
I'm curious how it was determined your level of NE is 26 , I didn't think such tests existed. 26 what?
> Actually I have found a lot of relief with using the Taurine. I am using it in combination with GABA (both bought in bulk powder). Along the lines of 1 to 1.5 gram Taurine with 1/2 to 3/4 gram of GABA. Seems to have allowed the cutting back of both the Xanax and Neurontin and the use of Ambien as a sleep aid rather than the Restoril.
Still haven't tried taurine, I did experiment with GABA at around 2-3 grams around bedtime. I can't say it made a huge difference but it was something. Have you tried theanine?
Rick
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 26, 2005, at 8:29:23
In reply to taurine, justice etc, posted by world citizen on April 23, 2005, at 23:34:58
>
>
> I'm eternally grateful to the poster that recomened Taurine! My PTSD has been rcently triggered and the hypervigilence keeps me from eating and sleeping. I'm proud to say that I took 500mgs of taurine, 2 Theanine-Serene (which also contains taurine), some B6, 500mgs of Vit. C and some simple carbs and within twenty minutes or so I started relaxing!You're very welcome. I'm grateful for the feedback, about how it worked for you.
Lar
Posted by Elroy on April 26, 2005, at 16:32:11
In reply to Re: Arghhh, posted by gromit on April 25, 2005, at 17:41:28
Agree with your gut feeliing about smi2le... mine was the same. They can be a superb resource if they get their act together.
Let's see...
The NE level in my case was determined by a blood test. It was part of a "metanephrine test" (or something like that) that the endo doc was doing to see if that adrenal gland tumor was a "pheo tumor" or not. As a side test they also do a blood test for your baseline adrenaline (etc.) levels. These measurements are in "pg/ml" units of measurement. The "normal range" (i.e., reference range) for NE is 80 to 520. Mine was a 26. The normal range for epinephrine is 18 - 200. Mine was a 42. Dopamine shows a reference range of 0 - 20 (that seems kind of stupid as 0 dopamine would obviously be bad) and mine just showed that it was "less than 20 pg/ml". Does that mean it was 19.4 or that it was 0.3???
Anyway, my psych doc was shocked. She was positive that my constant high levels of anxiety would have definitely resulted in high levels of all of those adrenaline type hormones. She's wondering now if the cortisol is not only causing the high anxiety, but somehow keeping the adrenals from producing levels of adrenaline hormones that they should...
The one problem that I do see is that this is a blood test, so it only reflects serum levels of those particular hormones at that specific time. There is a 24-hour urine catecholamines test (that term refers to NE and all the other adrenaline related hormones) that is - IMHO - more accurate in reflecting the actual daily levels of those hormones.
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003613.htm
To give you an example of what I am refering to (since I am VERY familiar with this process), most endos seldomly do serum cortisol tests - unless fo a specific purpose - as the 24-hour Urinary Free Cortisol test is much more accurate in showing what daily totals of cortisol are. You might go in at 3 PM to get a serum cortisol test and that just happen to be your low point of the day (for cortisol secretion), so the serum test would be very innacurate in portraying a picture of what was going on in "The Big Picture".
I just know that I have an extreme sensitivity to anything that increases NE levels (as indicated in earlier post). As such, I believe that the NE level shown in my test is very accurate simply because your theory makes a lot of sense in that context.
Like you said, 500mg of tyrosine might increase one's NE levels 25pg/ml and yours from 250 to 275 - a 10% increase. That same dosage would almost DOUBLE my NE levels. And if my body had become acclimatized to the mid 20s being the body's "baseline", then doubling it would be severe.
That makes sense simply because that what seems to be happening!
Anyway, I started Selegiline today - and starting it out by itself - at the rate of 2.5 mg (half a 5 mg tablet) per day. Knock on wood, but no problem with anxiety (etc.) Once I get assured that 2.5 mg is not creating any problems then will gradually move it up to 5mg daily. And then maybe to a second 5 mg before 2 PM (starting the second dosing out at first at 2.5 mg). Then will gradually add in one of the pro-dopamine amino acids (DLPA or tyrosine). Again, starting out in very low doses. If I can find tryrosine in 100 mgs tablets, I'm going to start at 1/2 tablet (50 mg) daily... and work up from there.
(P.S. I've noted that all the studies with low dose selegiline and these amino acids have used either DLPA or L-Phenylalanine or just Phenylalanine... wonder why tyrosine hasn't been used??? Anyone - Hoover maybe - have any ideas on that)?
I'd like to talk my endo doc into increasing my 24-hour urine tests from every two months to monthly AND to include the catecholamines in the testing process along with the cortisol that is already being tested.
I also had minimal - but some - positive effects with GABA. Had better effects with Picamilon (which is GABA bonded to niacin at the molecular level so it supposedly crosses the brain's blood barrier more efficiently). But using Taurine alone - or even with GABA - has seemed to have a very positive effect about 75% of the time (depending on severity of the anxiety).
Elroy> > smi2le seems to have gotten a new business manager to run things (a guy named Jeff). He has actually responded to a couple of my e-mails and informed me about the Idebenone and Sulbutiamine being on long-term backorder.
>
> I hope they can get it together, I've always had the gut feeling they have good intentions but are perhaps not very good at business/logistics.
>
> > I have found that I have a very sensitive response to anything that increases NE levels... which is surprising seing as how my NE levels are so low.
>
> I don't find this that surprising, beer with me for a second. Say my normal level is middle of the road, conveniently 250. If I take something that raises it by 25, for *me* that might not be a big thing, it's subtle or maybe I don't even notice a 10% difference. If you have a level around 26 now you're talking about a huge jump, relatively. Enough of me talking out of my rear.
>
> I'm curious how it was determined your level of NE is 26 , I didn't think such tests existed. 26 what?
>
> > Actually I have found a lot of relief with using the Taurine. I am using it in combination with GABA (both bought in bulk powder). Along the lines of 1 to 1.5 gram Taurine with 1/2 to 3/4 gram of GABA. Seems to have allowed the cutting back of both the Xanax and Neurontin and the use of Ambien as a sleep aid rather than the Restoril.
>
> Still haven't tried taurine, I did experiment with GABA at around 2-3 grams around bedtime. I can't say it made a huge difference but it was something. Have you tried theanine?
>
>
> Rick
>
Posted by KaraS on April 26, 2005, at 21:35:32
In reply to Re: Arghhh » gromit, posted by Elroy on April 26, 2005, at 16:32:11
> (P.S. I've noted that all the studies with low dose selegiline and these amino acids have used either DLPA or L-Phenylalanine or just Phenylalanine... wonder why tyrosine hasn't been used???
Tyrosine doesn't provide PEA but phenylalanine does.
Posted by world citizen on April 26, 2005, at 22:35:50
In reply to Re: taurine, justice etc » world citizen, posted by Larry Hoover on April 26, 2005, at 8:29:23
> >
Hey Larry, do you know anything about an antidepressant called Stablon? Apparently it's used in Europe but is probably a bit TOO effective to be used here. I hear that it is, in fact, a tricyclic BUT has none of the side effects of the tricyclics we have here. I also hear that it is VERY good for treating anxiety and yet is not sedating. The question I'm leading up to is,"does anyone know if Stablon and Selegiline can be taken concomitantly?". I like that selegiline is neuroprotective, though I probably take too much to actually get any of those benefits (5mgs per day).The other thing I wanted to share (just because I have great difficulty keeping these things to myself) is that I sang last night. I'm a jazz vocalist, been a music major forever and now that the toxic mold case is settled I feel I once again have something that resembles stability in my life. There's a club here in Sacramento that has a jam session on Monday nights. I initially sang Stormy Monday (blues standard) and the house band insisted that I sing another! We agreed upon laying down a swing groove with a blues chord progression and I just improvised my a** off for three verses worth! The two guitarists did their solos and when I came back in I just inserted the words for Route 66 which IS a blues swing tune! It was SOOOOO much fun! There is NO DRUG or supplement that can equal the endorphins/PEA that was flooding my brain after that! I was stoned for hours from singing two songs! I gues I should add that I do sing rather well and put a lot of feeling into it so the audience response feeds into my endorphin power surge! Okay, I'm not going to say anything else about it except to say I know where I'm going to be on Monday nights from henceforth!
World Citizen
> > I'm eternally grateful to the poster that recomened Taurine! My PTSD has been rcently triggered and the hypervigilence keeps me from eating and sleeping. I'm proud to say that I took 500mgs of taurine, 2 Theanine-Serene (which also contains taurine), some B6, 500mgs of Vit. C and some simple carbs and within twenty minutes or so I started relaxing!
>
> You're very welcome. I'm grateful for the feedback, about how it worked for you.
>
> Lar
Posted by Elroy on April 27, 2005, at 20:20:31
In reply to Re: Arghhh » Elroy, posted by KaraS on April 26, 2005, at 21:35:32
Thanks for info. That would make sense. Right now primary objective with selegiline is to get norepinehprine levels back up into mid normal ranges, so tyrosine should be just as effective for those purposes, eh?
Also, I know that selegiline converts to dopamine and that it's the dopamine that actually makes the conversion into NE.
Question: Does anyone know if there's any particular supplement needed to enhance that conversion (B6, Vitamin C, etc., etc.)???
Thanks for any info.
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> > (P.S. I've noted that all the studies with low dose selegiline and these amino acids have used either DLPA or L-Phenylalanine or just Phenylalanine... wonder why tyrosine hasn't been used???
>
>
> Tyrosine doesn't provide PEA but phenylalanine does.
Posted by Elroy on April 27, 2005, at 20:23:28
In reply to Re: taurine, justice etc, posted by world citizen on April 26, 2005, at 22:35:50
WC, have heard of Stablon in general, but have no information on it... other than I read a posting not to long ago that claimed tests showed it compared very, very favorably with Xanax for anxiety problems. That alone would make it an interesting alternative to me. Anyone know why it's not approve in US? How long has it been approved in Europe?
Would personally be interested in looking into it if it ever became available over here....
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> > >
> Hey Larry, do you know anything about an antidepressant called Stablon? Apparently it's used in Europe but is probably a bit TOO effective to be used here. I hear that it is, in fact, a tricyclic BUT has none of the side effects of the tricyclics we have here. I also hear that it is VERY good for treating anxiety and yet is not sedating. The question I'm leading up to is,"does anyone know if Stablon and Selegiline can be taken concomitantly?". I like that selegiline is neuroprotective, though I probably take too much to actually get any of those benefits (5mgs per day).
>
> The other thing I wanted to share (just because I have great difficulty keeping these things to myself) is that I sang last night. I'm a jazz vocalist, been a music major forever and now that the toxic mold case is settled I feel I once again have something that resembles stability in my life. There's a club here in Sacramento that has a jam session on Monday nights. I initially sang Stormy Monday (blues standard) and the house band insisted that I sing another! We agreed upon laying down a swing groove with a blues chord progression and I just improvised my a** off for three verses worth! The two guitarists did their solos and when I came back in I just inserted the words for Route 66 which IS a blues swing tune! It was SOOOOO much fun! There is NO DRUG or supplement that can equal the endorphins/PEA that was flooding my brain after that! I was stoned for hours from singing two songs! I gues I should add that I do sing rather well and put a lot of feeling into it so the audience response feeds into my endorphin power surge! Okay, I'm not going to say anything else about it except to say I know where I'm going to be on Monday nights from henceforth!
>
> World Citizen
>
>
> > > I'm eternally grateful to the poster that recomened Taurine! My PTSD has been rcently triggered and the hypervigilence keeps me from eating and sleeping. I'm proud to say that I took 500mgs of taurine, 2 Theanine-Serene (which also contains taurine), some B6, 500mgs of Vit. C and some simple carbs and within twenty minutes or so I started relaxing!
> >
> > You're very welcome. I'm grateful for the feedback, about how it worked for you.
> >
> > Lar
>
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 28, 2005, at 7:56:31
In reply to Re: taurine, justice etc, posted by world citizen on April 26, 2005, at 22:35:50
> > >
> Hey Larry, do you know anything about an antidepressant called Stablon? Apparently it's used in Europe but is probably a bit TOO effective to be used here. I hear that it is, in fact, a tricyclic BUT has none of the side effects of the tricyclics we have here.It is a tricyclic structure, but that is such a broad and meaningless term....
Think of it as a drug that stands alone in all respects. It is a selective serotonin reuptake enhancer.
It needs no dose titration. Users can start straight in at the maintenance dose, the very first day.
> I also hear that it is VERY good for treating anxiety and yet is not sedating. The question I'm leading up to is,"does anyone know if Stablon and Selegiline can be taken concomitantly?". I like that selegiline is neuroprotective, though I probably take too much to actually get any of those benefits (5mgs per day).
There is some concern about serotonin syndrome, with concommitant MAOI used. The threshold dose where selegiline would start blocking MAO-A to a substantial degree is the issue, vis a vis the safety of the combination. It's not that it can't be done. It must be done with great care.
>
> The other thing I wanted to share (just because I have great difficulty keeping these things to myself) is that I sang last night. I'm a jazz vocalist, been a music major forever and now that the toxic mold case is settled I feel I once again have something that resembles stability in my life. There's a club here in Sacramento that has a jam session on Monday nights. I initially sang Stormy Monday (blues standard) and the house band insisted that I sing another! We agreed upon laying down a swing groove with a blues chord progression and I just improvised my a** off for three verses worth! The two guitarists did their solos and when I came back in I just inserted the words for Route 66 which IS a blues swing tune! It was SOOOOO much fun! There is NO DRUG or supplement that can equal the endorphins/PEA that was flooding my brain after that! I was stoned for hours from singing two songs! I gues I should add that I do sing rather well and put a lot of feeling into it so the audience response feeds into my endorphin power surge! Okay, I'm not going to say anything else about it except to say I know where I'm going to be on Monday nights from henceforth!
>
> World CitizenSo glad to hear about that. It gave me a vicarious reaction. I used to play bass in bands....I kept the day job.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 28, 2005, at 8:31:38
In reply to Re: Arghhh » KaraS, posted by Elroy on April 27, 2005, at 20:20:31
> Thanks for info. That would make sense. Right now primary objective with selegiline is to get norepinehprine levels back up into mid normal ranges, so tyrosine should be just as effective for those purposes, eh?
No, not on a gram for gram basis. Think of the path to NE being like a limited access highway.
You're starting right at the origin of that highway, and there's a lot of traffic. The very first exit goes to PEA, and all of the D-phenylalanine and a small chunk of the L-phenylalanine gets off at that exit, but none of the tyrosine does.
Then there's a toll booth. The tyrosine gets to bypass the booth, but the L-PA has to pay, by getting turned into tyrosine. So, past this booth, the whole highway is filled with tyrosine.
Up ahead, there's a sign "Through traffic to dopamine, left two lanes. All other traffic, right lane." Some tyrosine gets off the highway, to become thyroid hormone and other stuff.
The through traffic faces another toll booth, but all of the tyrosine has to stop. It comes out of the booth as L-DOPA, direct precursor to dopamine (and NE thereafter).
If you started that highway with one gram each of d-,l-phenylalanine (DLPA), l-phenylalanine (L-PA), or tyrosine, the yield in L-DOPA (traffic still on the through highway at the last toll booth) would be about: 30%, 65%, and 85%, respectively (and with huge assumptions about muscles not building any protein during this trip, etc.).
Of that same one gram dose, yield of PEA would be about 60%, 15%, and < 1%, respectively. Tyrosine can back-convert to phenylalanine, so I'm not setting the latter yield to zero.
If NE is your target, tyrosine is your best bullet.
> Also, I know that selegiline converts to dopamine and that it's the dopamine that actually makes the conversion into NE.
I don't see that selegiline converts to dopamine.
http://www.selegiline.com/refs/index.html
Select the one that says "dopamine"
Lots of other great references in that list, and in ones that come up below individual references themselves.
There's another problem with your assumption. Providing a ready supply of NE is one thing. Enhancing its effect is quite another. NE isn't just floating around the brain. It is stored in special little containers called synaptosomes. If you want the effect of NE, you've got to enhance its release somehow, which means causing those synaptosomes to release their contents.
All told, indirect effects of selegiline might well do that, but I'm not even going to try to figure out a mechanism for it.
You're always back to the final test.....doing the experiment. Try the drug, and see how you feel, with and without DLPA and/or tyrosine.
> Question: Does anyone know if there's any particular supplement needed to enhance that conversion (B6, Vitamin C, etc., etc.)???
>
> Thanks for any info.General core supps, in any case. B-complex, C, zinc, selenium, etc. should be part of the routine intake. You *already* need them, not just for this specific purpose.
Lar
Posted by world citizen on April 28, 2005, at 12:43:20
In reply to Re: taurine, justice etc » world citizen, posted by Larry Hoover on April 28, 2005, at 7:56:31
Hey Larry, do you have access to any live music where you live, specifically music that you would find appealing? If my memory serves me correctly you're the one with the chronically acute pain in your arm, right? If I'm on track with this and you're the one that's been "winged" what are they doing about it-besides getting finger callouses from all the energetic paper shuffling? The reason I'm asking this is due to the fact that I believe that everyone that has the ablility to be creative a) owes it to the planet to share it,"The musician's art is among those arts worthy of the highest praise, and it moveth the hearts of all who grieve." ('Abdul-Baha, Selections from the Writings of 'Abdul-Baha), and b) as my testimonial in my previous post stated it's a GREAT source of endorphins. Even if you can't play the bass (at this time) I heartily encourage you to go listen to live music that you LOVE!!!!! We ALL know that even HEARING music that one loves has a great effect on neurochemicals! I find Ambient music to be exceptional in this way. I found an interesting book at the Library called "the Mozart Effect", by Don Campbell. Pain-acute, chronic and otherwise-is adressed as is anxiety.Larry, what is your "day job"? I realize you may have shared this in a previous post but it may have been during one of my cruises "in the sea of remoteness", otherwise known as acute self-involvement! Feel free to "decline to state".
World Citizen
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 29, 2005, at 0:42:48
In reply to Re: taurine, justice etc, posted by world citizen on April 28, 2005, at 12:43:20
> Hey Larry, do you have access to any live music where you live, specifically music that you would find appealing?
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups not about alternative treatments to Psycho-Babble Social. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20050426/msgs/491294.html
Thanks,
Bob
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