![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 73 to 97 of 228. Go back in thread:
Posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 14:29:35
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by gromit on March 11, 2005, at 22:58:59
According to my research Rick you should be fine. The cut-off level (for becoming an MOA Inhibitor with the dietary restrictions) is 15 - 20 mg. or higher. A couple of researchers have even indicated that the cut-off level could be as high as 30mg (or at least inferred that), but I would stay safe and keep things at the 15mg and under level.
QUOTE "At doses of 10-15mg/day or less for humans, deprenyl is a selective MAO-B inhibitor. MAO-A enzymes break down serotonin and noradrenalin, while MAO-B enzymes break down dopamine and phenylethylamine (PEA). " END QUOTE
Have you tried it with the protocol of taking the amino acid DLPA (DL Phenylalanine) on an empty stomach about 30 minutes before taking the deprenyl?
As I (who am just a humble layman who reads a lot) understand it, the DL-Phenylalanine converts quite a bit into Tyrosine which converts quite a bit into L-Dopa which converts quite a bit into Dopamine which converts quite a bit into what used to be called Adrenalin (a term not so much used now as it apparently quickly breaks down into Norepinephrine and Epinephrine). What L-phenyalanine is not used in the above conversion process (if I have this right) is a direct precursor to phenylethylamine (PEA). PEA acts as an endogenous compound in the brain that promotes energy and elevates mood
QUOTE "A deficit of PEA is implicated in ADHD and depression while too much PEA might be a part of schizophrenia." END QUOTE
When administered with the deprenyl, PEA improves mood without developing tolerance. PEA alone has an extremely short half-life (the half-life of PEA is estimated at only 0.4 minutes), but when taken with deprenyl the PEA half-life is greatly extended... Also deprenyl itself apparently increases PEA levels significantly....
QUOTE: “ …deprenyl increases dopamine levels… by 40-70%, deprenyl increases PEA levels 1300 - 3500%! PEA is the preferred substrate for MAO-B, the MAO that deprenyl inhibits." END QUOTE
By the way, what's so great about this thing called PEA?
QUOTE: "Phenyl-ethyl-amine (PEA)... is indeed the great amphetamine of the romance stage of love. It makes us feel at least slightly euphoric and depresses appetite. " And also: "Among supplements, phenylalanine is known to increase PEA levels... The anti-aging drug DEPRENYL also raises PEA levels. With just the right dose of deprenyl, we see expanded life span in lab animals; with too much, lifespan shortens."
ALSO: "PEA or phenylethylamine (which speeds up the flow of information between nerve cells), DOPAMINE (the feel-good chemical)"
AND ALSO "In humans, too much PEA has been associated with psychiatric disorders (but certainly not depression). There is apparently just the right range of PEA that we need for optimal neurochemistry. Too much romance, deprenyl, or maybe even chocolate is like too much exercise — it is actually harmful."
END QUOTEFor much more info on deprenyl's very positive (low-dose) effects overall, see:
http://www.offshorepharmacy.net/ias-deprenylJS.htm
BTW, L-phenylalanine by itself (without the mirror D-version) can improve mood and relieve depression when orally administered alone and even more so deprenyl. (See: Birkmayer W, Riederer P, Linauer W, Knoll J. L-deprenyl plus L-phenylalanine in the treatment of depression. J Neural Transm. 1984;59(1):81-7.)
So if DLPA isn't working just right - or maybe too strongly, maybe too much jittery anxiety - one might want to try the L-version instead of the DL-version???
> >
> > Kara, plese consult a pharmacist before taking selegiline. My understanding is that it can be lethal to take Selegiline and tricyclics, of which doxepin is one. Also certain prescription pain relievers are to be avoided -Demerol being the only one that comes to mind.
> >
> > SELEGILINE IS NOT A SUPPLEMENT!!!!!!! It is a prescription drug and the same precautions should be practiced as with other pharmceuticals.
>
> I've been taking 10 mg selegiline with trazodone 25 mg for about 2 weeks now. I also take vicodin, officially for a torn rotator cuff but really as an AD, it doesn't help my pain much anymore. It does seem to make the vicodin more potent but maybe it's just my imagination.
>
> I researched this as much as I could, a lot of the technical stuff I don't understand, it seemed there might be a small risk but my doses are pretty low. Anyway I haven't keeled yet but YMMV.
>
>
> Rick
>
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 15:51:14
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 14:29:35
The more conservative numbers say that the cut-off for MAO-B selectivity is 10 mg. A friend of mine had a hypertensive crisis on 15 mg. It probably varies per individual but I'd stay on the safe side if I were you. If you go over 10 mg, then stick to the MAOI diet.
K
Posted by gromit on March 12, 2005, at 16:49:05
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 14:29:35
Wow thanks for the detailed post! I suspect the link will be gone soon but I've actually read that article before. Apparently my retention is really low, I had totally missed the part about ADHD and the percentage increases. Missed the B6 part too. Depression can make you dumb I guess.
Yes I've been taking DLPA on an empty stomach on and off for awhile, it does seem to give me a slight boost and more so with the deprenyl. I haven't tried the L half by itself, in fact I don't think I've ever seen it in a store, only D-Phenylalanine which I haven't tried either. I can say I prefer the DLPA to tyrosine though.
I'm taking 10 drops of liquid deprenyl but hope to be able to back down to 5 mg or less, just wanted to give it a kick start in the beginning. I did have one day when I was a little uncomfortable but it was just that one time, nothing close to a hypertensive crisis so far. One thing I can't find is how long will it take for complete MAO-B inhibition?
Anyway I see a new pdoc Monday, hopefully he'll be ok with continuing this because if not it's on to the next one. I can't afford many more $85 bottles though.
Rick
Posted by gromit on March 12, 2005, at 16:51:58
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) - gromit, Elroy » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 15:51:14
I read a post a while back claiming the drops were way more potent than the pills. Has anybody noticed this or have a link that might confirm it?
Thanks
Rick
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 17:07:35
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl, posted by gromit on March 12, 2005, at 16:51:58
> I read a post a while back claiming the drops were way more potent than the pills. Has anybody noticed this or have a link that might confirm it?
>
>
> Thanks
> Rick
I remember someone posted something on the main board a little while back about the conversion equation for the drops to the pills. Unfortunately I don't remember the answer. Maybe if you did a search of PB for "liquid selegiline" you'd find the right answer without having to look through a gazillion posts.
K
Posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 17:16:17
In reply to RE: CES, Neurontin and selegiline » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 1:09:54
Kara,
RE: "I think that you have been trying too many different things at once. It's too hard to know what is causing what and, in the long-term what is helping. Since your primary problems are anxiety and neuropathy (due to increased cortisol), then it makes sense to temporarily put the selegiline aside.... "
And I think that you hit that nail square on the head! That is exactly whathas hit me just in the last couple of days. I have three primary problems (and some secondary ones that I believe were directly caused by those primary three). And I also know that the three primary problems are high cortisol, high anxiety, and severe neuropathy type pains. And I know that they "feed off of each other", so - in the case of those three - it IS imperative that I work on all three concurrently (i.e., if I just worked on getting the cortisol levels down, well, the anxiety and the pain is working just as hard at jacking the cortisol levels right back up, etc., etc.).
So the simultaneous approach was correct... but I got too carried away with it. Because my psych doc (who is pretty good, BTW) kept looking for an AD to prescribe, I got caught up in feeling that I needed to do that too. And as I read what was going on, it seemed clearly more like a dopamine deficiency problem - if there was one - than a serotonin or norepinephrine problem. Therefore the search for
something in that direction and the discovery of deprenyl (selegiline) and all the research in that direction.I am glad that I did that research as it may very well be something that I use further down the road as part of the "finishing touches" (and maybe that research has beeb helpful to people on this board maybe)... but the fact is that the depression that I have had came much later than the anxiety and has always been much less severe than the anxiety (by a factor of at least ten!) and that the depression was always orietned towards being depressed about my condition, not a generic depression.
So why get caught up in addressing one of the secondary problems (that might go away on its own once the three primaries are corrected... or can be dealt with separately as the more minor issue if it doesn't go away after that)???
Good question.
Just got caught up in the "simultaneous approach strategy" I guess.
But, yes, I have decided to shelve the deprenyl approach for now and force myself to focus strictly on The Big Three.
I have cortisol results from tests done in late February coming back soon (should have been in Friday but my endo's secretary didn't call back), so I am interested in how those levels were. I have been successful in getting those levels moving downward since about October, so hopeful that trend continues. The first decreases occurred when my psych doc put me on Ativan (about a 10 - 15% drop) and then moved me to Xanax (about another 10 - 15% drop on top of that). That was like late Sept (Ativan) and early November (Xanax). That tells me that there's definitely a link between the anxiety and cortisol, but not sure which is the cart and which is the horse! Drops that have occurred since then have been even more drastic... and I believe afre due to the fact that I have researched, identified and been taking mega doses of identified anti-cortisol compounds.
I have also just started the neurotin regimen... only since Wednesday. So far fairly dramatic results in the neuropathy and even with the anxiety. I think that due to higher cortisol levels that there was always some ongonig background anxiety present. So the Xanax was hitting about 75% of the anxiety (the Ativan was hitting about 50%). I thought I'd probably have to hit up the psych doc for stronger Xanax (XR version), but the neurotin has now covered about 20% of that background anxiety - often even the full 25%. I'd even consider weaning off of the Xanax completely, but it (Xanax) helps significantly with my tinnitus - YES, it is part-and-parcel of this whole problem... one of several symptoms that popped up out of nowehre within 2 - 3 weeks of the onset of the severe anxiety in mid June of 2004 (neuropathy pains, severely icy cold pains inside feet additional to surface neuropathy pains of hands and feet, prostatitis or severe UTI symptoms, complete loss of libido, complete erectile dysfunction, testosterone production plummeted to way below normal levels, tinnitus, extreme fatigue, lack of motivation, yet severe agitation from anxiety, panic attacks, sleeping problems.... ). I went from NONE of those problems in early/mid June to ALL of those problems by early July! And then the high cortisol problem finally discovered (only at my repeated urging by the way) in early September... but I'm sure it existed back in June - and maybe for a month or two before that if the cortisol has been causing this. Or did the severe anxiety also cause the ultra high cortisol (my levels in early Sept were almost SIX times the normal range max levels) and then the ultra high cortisol whacked those other systems???
Anyway, the neurontin has suddenly become a Big Player in my simultaneous strategy approach... and I cannot wait for Lyrica to be released on the market. If you get a chance, check out the user ratings for it at RemedyFind.com (and the first set oflistings are actually from Fibro patients as there isn;t a separate neuropathy category - these are listings from non USA citizens as still not released onto market here even though approved by FDA last Sept and used in Europe for several months at least)
http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=7887
http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=7893Also postings on this board can be located.
Might want to give it a try when it get released??? Supposed to be more potent at lower doses with less tolerance effect and much more minimal side effects (BTW, I have had some moderate sedation effect from the neurontin as the only side effect and that frequently goes away after the first week or two).....
> Hi Elroy,
>
> Thanks for explaining further about the CES. I understand better now. If it can, in fact, balance neurotransmitters as Dr. Braverman claims, then it would seem to be a good investment. I would really like to hear how Franco Neuro is doing on Dr. Braverman's program. Hopefully he'll post his progress in the near future.
>
> I think that you have been trying too many different things at once. It's too hard to know what is causing what and, in the long-term what is helping. Since your primary problems are anxiety and neuropathy (due to increased cortisol), then it makes sense to temporarily put the selegiline aside. You can then figure out what the Neurontin is doing on its own. As you know, medications change in their side effects as your body adjusts to them so the response you get to Neurontin could be very different a month from now than the first couple of days on it.
>
> I tried Neurontin many years ago to help with sleep. I don't remember it all that well except that it made me feel really sick. I only took a small amount for a night or two and never tried it again.
>
> At any rate, it sounds like you're on the right path since your cortisol levels have gone down.
>
> Take care,
> Kara
>
>
> > No, just to make sure that there's no misunderstanding, what the sales rep advised me - and the online literature has confirmed - is that the lower setting is for therapeutic response to anxiety (and insomnia) and that the higher setting is for depression and balancing the brain's neurotransmitters.
> >
> > What I have found with my limited use so far (like three days with trying to hit twice a day w/ higher setting for 30 minutes each and one 30 minute session with lower setting at bedtime) is as follows:
> >
> > My frustration is with the lower setting in that even with this second unit they sent that I don't feel it working. I put it on my wife and turned it up slightly and she felt it immediately. We did several runs with it and she couldn't see when I was turning it up or not and shje clearly felt it every time. I also put the electrodes on my tongue and at full power could then very, very faintly make out pulses! I don't know if my nerves have become really desensitized from my very high cortisol levels? Or, I should say formerly very high levels as I have been successful to getting those levels down to where they are just above the maximum end of the "normal reference range". Back in September my levels were almost SIX times the max of that range!
> >
> > Anyway, so far (three days?) I have noticed that the higher range of the CES does seem to basically have a calming effect, a smoothing out effect. Now I am using it while also on Xanax and Neutrontin so it's not like there's a major anxiety crisis for it to address at this point. As to what the lower range might be doing, I'm just not sure it's having that much of an effect with me or not.
> >
> > What I do look at as being possibly beneficial - and worth it no matter what may turn out in the other areas - is that if it does have the positive effect Dr. Braverman talks about in balancing the brain's neurotransmitters (???).
> >
> > Also....
> >
> > At this point, not really sure what I'm going to do with the Selegiline. I had a less than optimal day with the neurontin today - after having a couple of great days. On those "great days" I had almost no neuropathy type pain that I could notice, my feet - which are usally icy cold to the point of being painful - actually felt okay, and even felt warm at times! And, even more amazing, there was like no anxiety at all.. all day long! And slept great.
> >
> > Then today I had like some background jitteriness type anxiety for most of the day. And it seemed like once it started that I began noticing some slight return of the neuropathy symptoms and some coldness to my feet again.
> >
> > Hmmm.... what was the deal, what was going on differently?
> >
> > And my wife then made an interesting observation.
> >
> > She pointed out that from the start of all this (which has only been since June of 2004), that my PRIMARY problems have been elevated cortisol (and the physical/emotional/mental problems caused by same), the neuropathy type pains (more and more believed to have been developed by the high cortisol and "kept alive" by the anxiety), and the severely severe anxiety.... and that any depression has always been much milder and seems to simply exist from being depressed at all the crap I'm going through!
> >
> > When she mentioned that it hit me that the first day on the neurontin I had not only the pain relief but also the complete lack of anxiety... and that there was ZERO depression. Now I can't claim that first day to any effect of the Selegiline / DLPA combo as that was the day before I started it.
> >
> > Now after having been on the Selegiline / DLPA a couple of days I have a "down day". Granted absolutely NO depression, but a naggling return of a touch of anxiety - AND the touch of neuropathy pains....
> >
> > Hmmm.....
> >
> > Coincidence?
> >
> > Or is the Selegiline combo creating just enough extra energy (which to someone that is sensitive in that direction then turns into anxiety)? And that extra "chemically induced" anxiety just enough to slightly overpower the neurontin effects?
> >
> > Boy, I don't know. Was today just coincidentally a "down day". After all, I have been on neither the neurontin or the selegiline combo long enough to have their primary effects build up fully.
> >
> > But then if the selegiline IS somehow being counter-effective to the neurontin - especially as experienced in the initial couple days - well, maybe continuing the selegiline experiment at this point is being counterproductive.
> >
> > As my wife pointed out, my primary problem has always been severe anxiety as versus depression. In fact, from June '04 until about late October of '04 it was strictly anxiety with depression gradually entering the picture as it seemed more and more like the med docs and the psy docs just didn't know for sure what was going on....
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hi Elroy,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
> > >
> > > I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
> > >
> > > I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
> > >
> > > Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
> > >
> > > K
> > >
> > >
> > > > Kara,
> > > >
> > > > Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
> > > >
> > > > Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
> > > >
> > > > It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
> > > >
> > > > I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
> > > >
> > > > > Elroy,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> > > > >
> > > > > Kara
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 18:36:53
In reply to RE: CES, Neurontin and selegiline » KaraS, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 17:16:17
Elroy,
Sounds like you're on the right path with all of this. Hope that your latest cortisol reading is really low.
The Lyrica does sound amazing. Hopefully it will be released in the US soon. I couldn't tolerate Neurontin at all but maybe I'd have better success with this one. I'd love to have another option for anxiety control. My fingers are crossed.
Take care,
Kara
> Kara,
>
> RE: "I think that you have been trying too many different things at once. It's too hard to know what is causing what and, in the long-term what is helping. Since your primary problems are anxiety and neuropathy (due to increased cortisol), then it makes sense to temporarily put the selegiline aside.... "
>
> And I think that you hit that nail square on the head! That is exactly whathas hit me just in the last couple of days. I have three primary problems (and some secondary ones that I believe were directly caused by those primary three). And I also know that the three primary problems are high cortisol, high anxiety, and severe neuropathy type pains. And I know that they "feed off of each other", so - in the case of those three - it IS imperative that I work on all three concurrently (i.e., if I just worked on getting the cortisol levels down, well, the anxiety and the pain is working just as hard at jacking the cortisol levels right back up, etc., etc.).
>
> So the simultaneous approach was correct... but I got too carried away with it. Because my psych doc (who is pretty good, BTW) kept looking for an AD to prescribe, I got caught up in feeling that I needed to do that too. And as I read what was going on, it seemed clearly more like a dopamine deficiency problem - if there was one - than a serotonin or norepinephrine problem. Therefore the search for
> something in that direction and the discovery of deprenyl (selegiline) and all the research in that direction.
>
> I am glad that I did that research as it may very well be something that I use further down the road as part of the "finishing touches" (and maybe that research has beeb helpful to people on this board maybe)... but the fact is that the depression that I have had came much later than the anxiety and has always been much less severe than the anxiety (by a factor of at least ten!) and that the depression was always orietned towards being depressed about my condition, not a generic depression.
>
> So why get caught up in addressing one of the secondary problems (that might go away on its own once the three primaries are corrected... or can be dealt with separately as the more minor issue if it doesn't go away after that)???
>
> Good question.
>
> Just got caught up in the "simultaneous approach strategy" I guess.
>
> But, yes, I have decided to shelve the deprenyl approach for now and force myself to focus strictly on The Big Three.
>
> I have cortisol results from tests done in late February coming back soon (should have been in Friday but my endo's secretary didn't call back), so I am interested in how those levels were. I have been successful in getting those levels moving downward since about October, so hopeful that trend continues. The first decreases occurred when my psych doc put me on Ativan (about a 10 - 15% drop) and then moved me to Xanax (about another 10 - 15% drop on top of that). That was like late Sept (Ativan) and early November (Xanax). That tells me that there's definitely a link between the anxiety and cortisol, but not sure which is the cart and which is the horse! Drops that have occurred since then have been even more drastic... and I believe afre due to the fact that I have researched, identified and been taking mega doses of identified anti-cortisol compounds.
>
> I have also just started the neurotin regimen... only since Wednesday. So far fairly dramatic results in the neuropathy and even with the anxiety. I think that due to higher cortisol levels that there was always some ongonig background anxiety present. So the Xanax was hitting about 75% of the anxiety (the Ativan was hitting about 50%). I thought I'd probably have to hit up the psych doc for stronger Xanax (XR version), but the neurotin has now covered about 20% of that background anxiety - often even the full 25%. I'd even consider weaning off of the Xanax completely, but it (Xanax) helps significantly with my tinnitus - YES, it is part-and-parcel of this whole problem... one of several symptoms that popped up out of nowehre within 2 - 3 weeks of the onset of the severe anxiety in mid June of 2004 (neuropathy pains, severely icy cold pains inside feet additional to surface neuropathy pains of hands and feet, prostatitis or severe UTI symptoms, complete loss of libido, complete erectile dysfunction, testosterone production plummeted to way below normal levels, tinnitus, extreme fatigue, lack of motivation, yet severe agitation from anxiety, panic attacks, sleeping problems.... ). I went from NONE of those problems in early/mid June to ALL of those problems by early July! And then the high cortisol problem finally discovered (only at my repeated urging by the way) in early September... but I'm sure it existed back in June - and maybe for a month or two before that if the cortisol has been causing this. Or did the severe anxiety also cause the ultra high cortisol (my levels in early Sept were almost SIX times the normal range max levels) and then the ultra high cortisol whacked those other systems???
>
> Anyway, the neurontin has suddenly become a Big Player in my simultaneous strategy approach... and I cannot wait for Lyrica to be released on the market. If you get a chance, check out the user ratings for it at RemedyFind.com (and the first set oflistings are actually from Fibro patients as there isn;t a separate neuropathy category - these are listings from non USA citizens as still not released onto market here even though approved by FDA last Sept and used in Europe for several months at least)
>
> http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=7887
> http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=7893
>
> Also postings on this board can be located.
>
> Might want to give it a try when it get released??? Supposed to be more potent at lower doses with less tolerance effect and much more minimal side effects (BTW, I have had some moderate sedation effect from the neurontin as the only side effect and that frequently goes away after the first week or two).....
>
>
>
> > Hi Elroy,
> >
> > Thanks for explaining further about the CES. I understand better now. If it can, in fact, balance neurotransmitters as Dr. Braverman claims, then it would seem to be a good investment. I would really like to hear how Franco Neuro is doing on Dr. Braverman's program. Hopefully he'll post his progress in the near future.
> >
> > I think that you have been trying too many different things at once. It's too hard to know what is causing what and, in the long-term what is helping. Since your primary problems are anxiety and neuropathy (due to increased cortisol), then it makes sense to temporarily put the selegiline aside. You can then figure out what the Neurontin is doing on its own. As you know, medications change in their side effects as your body adjusts to them so the response you get to Neurontin could be very different a month from now than the first couple of days on it.
> >
> > I tried Neurontin many years ago to help with sleep. I don't remember it all that well except that it made me feel really sick. I only took a small amount for a night or two and never tried it again.
> >
> > At any rate, it sounds like you're on the right path since your cortisol levels have gone down.
> >
> > Take care,
> > Kara
> >
> >
> > > No, just to make sure that there's no misunderstanding, what the sales rep advised me - and the online literature has confirmed - is that the lower setting is for therapeutic response to anxiety (and insomnia) and that the higher setting is for depression and balancing the brain's neurotransmitters.
> > >
> > > What I have found with my limited use so far (like three days with trying to hit twice a day w/ higher setting for 30 minutes each and one 30 minute session with lower setting at bedtime) is as follows:
> > >
> > > My frustration is with the lower setting in that even with this second unit they sent that I don't feel it working. I put it on my wife and turned it up slightly and she felt it immediately. We did several runs with it and she couldn't see when I was turning it up or not and shje clearly felt it every time. I also put the electrodes on my tongue and at full power could then very, very faintly make out pulses! I don't know if my nerves have become really desensitized from my very high cortisol levels? Or, I should say formerly very high levels as I have been successful to getting those levels down to where they are just above the maximum end of the "normal reference range". Back in September my levels were almost SIX times the max of that range!
> > >
> > > Anyway, so far (three days?) I have noticed that the higher range of the CES does seem to basically have a calming effect, a smoothing out effect. Now I am using it while also on Xanax and Neutrontin so it's not like there's a major anxiety crisis for it to address at this point. As to what the lower range might be doing, I'm just not sure it's having that much of an effect with me or not.
> > >
> > > What I do look at as being possibly beneficial - and worth it no matter what may turn out in the other areas - is that if it does have the positive effect Dr. Braverman talks about in balancing the brain's neurotransmitters (???).
> > >
> > > Also....
> > >
> > > At this point, not really sure what I'm going to do with the Selegiline. I had a less than optimal day with the neurontin today - after having a couple of great days. On those "great days" I had almost no neuropathy type pain that I could notice, my feet - which are usally icy cold to the point of being painful - actually felt okay, and even felt warm at times! And, even more amazing, there was like no anxiety at all.. all day long! And slept great.
> > >
> > > Then today I had like some background jitteriness type anxiety for most of the day. And it seemed like once it started that I began noticing some slight return of the neuropathy symptoms and some coldness to my feet again.
> > >
> > > Hmmm.... what was the deal, what was going on differently?
> > >
> > > And my wife then made an interesting observation.
> > >
> > > She pointed out that from the start of all this (which has only been since June of 2004), that my PRIMARY problems have been elevated cortisol (and the physical/emotional/mental problems caused by same), the neuropathy type pains (more and more believed to have been developed by the high cortisol and "kept alive" by the anxiety), and the severely severe anxiety.... and that any depression has always been much milder and seems to simply exist from being depressed at all the crap I'm going through!
> > >
> > > When she mentioned that it hit me that the first day on the neurontin I had not only the pain relief but also the complete lack of anxiety... and that there was ZERO depression. Now I can't claim that first day to any effect of the Selegiline / DLPA combo as that was the day before I started it.
> > >
> > > Now after having been on the Selegiline / DLPA a couple of days I have a "down day". Granted absolutely NO depression, but a naggling return of a touch of anxiety - AND the touch of neuropathy pains....
> > >
> > > Hmmm.....
> > >
> > > Coincidence?
> > >
> > > Or is the Selegiline combo creating just enough extra energy (which to someone that is sensitive in that direction then turns into anxiety)? And that extra "chemically induced" anxiety just enough to slightly overpower the neurontin effects?
> > >
> > > Boy, I don't know. Was today just coincidentally a "down day". After all, I have been on neither the neurontin or the selegiline combo long enough to have their primary effects build up fully.
> > >
> > > But then if the selegiline IS somehow being counter-effective to the neurontin - especially as experienced in the initial couple days - well, maybe continuing the selegiline experiment at this point is being counterproductive.
> > >
> > > As my wife pointed out, my primary problem has always been severe anxiety as versus depression. In fact, from June '04 until about late October of '04 it was strictly anxiety with depression gradually entering the picture as it seemed more and more like the med docs and the psy docs just didn't know for sure what was going on....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Elroy,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
> > > >
> > > > I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
> > > >
> > > > I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
> > > >
> > > > Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
> > > >
> > > > K
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Kara,
> > > > >
> > > > > Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
> > > > >
> > > > > Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
> > > > >
> > > > > It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
> > > > >
> > > > > I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Elroy,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kara
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by world citizen on March 12, 2005, at 18:38:04
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl, posted by gromit on March 12, 2005, at 16:51:58
Rick, you might consider posing some of these questions to joe@dancesafe.org. He's very knowledgable about Selegelint/DLPA etc. If you do tell him World Citizen sent you.World Citizen
Posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 19:48:34
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) - gromit, Elroy » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 15:51:14
Absolutely.
When I do give it a try, I'm going to follow the same protocol that I started to this time... 5mg in the morning, and if I think somewhat more is needed theh go with a second 5mg dose at lunch time.
I'm also going to just do the L-version of the phenylalanine and start out around 100mg. The jittery type anxiety that I had going on in the background was not - in my belief - from the deprenyl, but was from the DLPA (and 500mg at that). Or if staying with the DLPA version then doing no more than 250mg to start with (which at a 50/50 ratio would be 125mg of each version).
> The more conservative numbers say that the cut-off for MAO-B selectivity is 10 mg. A friend of mine had a hypertensive crisis on 15 mg. It probably varies per individual but I'd stay on the safe side if I were you. If you go over 10 mg, then stick to the MAOI diet.
>
> K
Posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 19:53:26
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl, posted by gromit on March 12, 2005, at 16:51:58
I can only report that I've seen posts both ways. Obviously 5mg is 5mg either way, so I think that it boils down to whether or not the liquid version metabolizes faster for some people... and if it does then is that actually even a benefit? Maybe slower metabolizing is better???
> I read a post a while back claiming the drops were way more potent than the pills. Has anybody noticed this or have a link that might confirm it?
>
>
> Thanks
> Rick
>
Posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 19:57:07
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl, posted by world citizen on March 12, 2005, at 18:38:04
Rick, If you do, post any response (summarized) back to us on this thread. I'm dropping off of my planned (just started) selegiline / DLPA combo regimen as I have anotther med just started on Wed and want to better track what is going on with what, but am interested in it for possible long term usage.
Thanks.
Elroy
>
> Rick, you might consider posing some of these questions to joe@dancesafe.org. He's very knowledgable about Selegelint/DLPA etc. If you do tell him World Citizen sent you.
>
> World Citizen
>
Posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 20:15:55
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl, posted by world citizen on March 12, 2005, at 18:38:04
Hey, I found this posting over at Joe's website (just poking around there some):
QUOTE:
"DLPA (D,L-phenylalaine) 1000-2000mg, 2-3x/day w/ 50mg Vitamin B6 and 1000mg Vitamin C - Take on a completely empty stomach with 8oz of fruit juice (amino acids need simple sugars to get "pushed" where they need to go). Do not eat anything for 45-60 minutes after taking. DLPA works by naturally increasing levels of the neurotransmitters dopamine and phenethylamine and by blocking the breakdown of endorphins and enkaphalins (endogenous opiate-like substances). DLPA is the most potent anti-depressant and anxiolytic (anxiety reducer/reliever) I have ever encoutered. There are virtually no negative side effects, the side effects that there are tend to be positive such as increased sex-drive, decreased appetite and mild weight loss. Try it for 30 days. If it doesn't work then it doesn't work (it will work), but what do you have to lose? I cannot emphasize enough how potent this little amino acid is, it literally changed my life. If I had the resources to give this stuff away for free I would. TRY IT! I will personally slap anyone who says anything negative about DLPA or that it lacks "FDA approval". The FDA has no power to regulate amino-acids, which is what DLPA is. Anyone with any negative comments can go to hell, because all you're doing is discouraging people from trying this incredible substance. If you haven't tried it, keep your Goddamn mouth shut about "it doesn't work" or "if it works it would be prescribed". Anyone who wants more information can email me (joe@dancesafe.org)"
END QUOTEPretty interesting. I note that he recommends a pretty high dose of DLPA without any deprenyl in this particular post.
This particular page is loaded with some good info....
>
> Rick, you might consider posing some of these questions to joe@dancesafe.org. He's very knowledgable about Selegelint/DLPA etc. If you do tell him World Citizen sent you.
>
> World Citizen
>
Posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 20:35:43
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl » world citizen, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 20:15:55
Here's an interesting study....
http://www.selegiline.com/pea.html
QUOTE:
Phenylethylamine (PEA), an endogenous neuroamine, increases attention and activity in animals and has been shown to relieve depression in 60% of depressed patients. It has been proposed that PEA deficit may be the cause of a common form of depressive illness. Fourteen patients with major depressive episodes that responded to PEA treatment (10-60 mg orally per day, with 10 mg/day selegiline to prevent rapid PEA destruction) were reexamined 20 to 50 weeks later. The antidepressant response had been maintained in 12 patients. Effective dosage did not change with time. There were no apparent side effects. PEA produces sustained relief of depression in a significant number of patients, including some unresponsive to the standard treatments.
END QUOTESo.....
Where does one obtain PEA (Phenylethylamine) from? Seems to me that going this route would be much more effective than going through the DLPA route where A has to convert to B which converts to C, etc., etc.... No???
I can't find a source for it in checking my normal online suppliers....
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 22:11:54
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) - gromit, Elroy » KaraS, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 19:48:34
Sounds like a good plan!
> Absolutely.
>
> When I do give it a try, I'm going to follow the same protocol that I started to this time... 5mg in the morning, and if I think somewhat more is needed theh go with a second 5mg dose at lunch time.
>
> I'm also going to just do the L-version of the phenylalanine and start out around 100mg. The jittery type anxiety that I had going on in the background was not - in my belief - from the deprenyl, but was from the DLPA (and 500mg at that). Or if staying with the DLPA version then doing no more than 250mg to start with (which at a 50/50 ratio would be 125mg of each version).
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > The more conservative numbers say that the cut-off for MAO-B selectivity is 10 mg. A friend of mine had a hypertensive crisis on 15 mg. It probably varies per individual but I'd stay on the safe side if I were you. If you go over 10 mg, then stick to the MAOI diet.
> >
> > K
>
>
Posted by world citizen on March 12, 2005, at 22:55:23
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl » world citizen, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 20:15:55
Hey guys,DLPA,due to the fact that it increases dopamine, is a very effective way to stop smoking. It's the same dosage of vitamin C etc, but repeating it prior to lunch and dinner as well if needed. As you all are probably aware the withdrawal from ciggarettes is mainly due to the fact the they are no longer providing dopamine, in addition to just general detoxing from all the "crap" they put in there.
I don't know if anyone is trying to stop smoking or not, just thought I'd share!
World Citizen
Posted by gromit on March 13, 2005, at 8:28:41
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl » gromit, posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 17:07:35
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20050202/msgs/453536.html is this the thread you were thinking of? I asked a simular question then and a couple of other times but nobody replied.
Rick
Posted by gromit on March 13, 2005, at 8:40:47
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl, posted by world citizen on March 12, 2005, at 18:38:04
> Rick, you might consider posing some of these questions to joe@dancesafe.org. He's very knowledgable about Selegelint/DLPA etc. If you do tell him World Citizen sent you.
Thanks I'll poke around there and report back anything I find out.
Posted by gromit on March 13, 2005, at 8:42:57
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » Elroy, posted by gromit on March 12, 2005, at 16:49:05
> Yes I've been taking DLPA on an empty stomach on and off for awhile, it does seem to give me a slight boost and more so with the deprenyl. I haven't tried the L half by itself, in fact I don't think I've ever seen it in a store, only D-Phenylalanine which I haven't tried either. I can say I prefer the DLPA to tyrosine though.
I guess I switched the two around, I've only seen L-Phenylalanine being sold, anyway still haven't tried it.
Posted by gromit on March 13, 2005, at 8:47:41
In reply to RE: PEA, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 20:35:43
> Where does one obtain PEA (Phenylethylamine) from? Seems to me that going this route would be much more effective than going through the DLPA route where A has to convert to B which converts to C, etc., etc.... No???
>
> I can't find a source for it in checking my normal online suppliers....If I recall this has been discussed here before and the only effective way is by injection. I would try googling instead of relying on my memory though.
Rick
Posted by gromit on March 13, 2005, at 8:54:46
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl, posted by world citizen on March 12, 2005, at 22:55:23
> Hey guys,DLPA,due to the fact that it increases dopamine, is a very effective way to stop smoking. It's the same dosage of vitamin C etc, but repeating it prior to lunch and dinner as well if needed. As you all are probably aware the withdrawal from ciggarettes is mainly due to the fact the they are no longer providing dopamine, in addition to just general detoxing from all the "crap" they put in there.
>
> I don't know if anyone is trying to stop smoking or not, just thought I'd share!
> World CitizenI'm trying to quit! I've been smoking like a train since my first dose of Cymbalta a month ago, this is after quitting 5 years ago and having no cravings in almost that long. Quit the Cymbalta once my samples ran out but still smoking |{ So far no help from deprenyl but Welbutrin didn't help either so it may help others.
Rick
Posted by KaraS on March 13, 2005, at 14:15:21
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl, posted by gromit on March 13, 2005, at 8:28:41
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20050202/msgs/453536.html is this the thread you were thinking of? I asked a simular question then and a couple of other times but nobody replied.
>
> Rick
>It probably is. I don't remember for certain. If it is the post, then it's comparing the the sublingual form that avoids first pass metabolism with the regular pills. It doesn't directly discuss the liquid vs. the pills. Sorry.
K
Posted by KaraS on March 13, 2005, at 15:56:51
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl » world citizen, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 20:15:55
I find DLPA confusing. I've always thought of it as more stimulating and therefore, anxiety provoking. That post below was the first time I'd read that phenylalanine could be good for anxiety. I did some more research on this and found examples of both cases. In the information that said it could be good for anxiety, they also cautioned that it's not to be used by those with panic attacks. Maybe that's because it is initially stimulating and could worsen panic disorder - but that after it's taken a while, it can help with anxiety, as is often the case with SSRIs. I was also surprised to see warnings about not taking DLPA if you're already on an antidepressant. That would make sense if the antidepressants are noradrenergic or dopaminergic - but why couldn't you take it with an SSRI?
k
> Hey, I found this posting over at Joe's website (just poking around there some):
>
> QUOTE:
> "DLPA (D,L-phenylalaine) 1000-2000mg, 2-3x/day w/ 50mg Vitamin B6 and 1000mg Vitamin C - Take on a completely empty stomach with 8oz of fruit juice (amino acids need simple sugars to get "pushed" where they need to go). Do not eat anything for 45-60 minutes after taking. DLPA works by naturally increasing levels of the neurotransmitters dopamine and phenethylamine and by blocking the breakdown of endorphins and enkaphalins (endogenous opiate-like substances). DLPA is the most potent anti-depressant and anxiolytic (anxiety reducer/reliever) I have ever encoutered. There are virtually no negative side effects, the side effects that there are tend to be positive such as increased sex-drive, decreased appetite and mild weight loss. Try it for 30 days. If it doesn't work then it doesn't work (it will work), but what do you have to lose? I cannot emphasize enough how potent this little amino acid is, it literally changed my life. If I had the resources to give this stuff away for free I would. TRY IT! I will personally slap anyone who says anything negative about DLPA or that it lacks "FDA approval". The FDA has no power to regulate amino-acids, which is what DLPA is. Anyone with any negative comments can go to hell, because all you're doing is discouraging people from trying this incredible substance. If you haven't tried it, keep your Goddamn mouth shut about "it doesn't work" or "if it works it would be prescribed". Anyone who wants more information can email me (joe@dancesafe.org)"
> END QUOTE
>
> Pretty interesting. I note that he recommends a pretty high dose of DLPA without any deprenyl in this particular post.
>
> This particular page is loaded with some good info....
>
> http://www.dancesafe.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB30&Number=75415&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Rick, you might consider posing some of these questions to joe@dancesafe.org. He's very knowledgable about Selegelint/DLPA etc. If you do tell him World Citizen sent you.
> >
> > World Citizen
> >
>
>
Posted by world citizen on March 13, 2005, at 18:24:30
In reply to RE: DLPA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 13, 2005, at 15:56:51
Kara, why don't you hop on over to joe@dancesafe.org and ask him?
Posted by KaraS on March 13, 2005, at 18:50:06
In reply to RE: DLPA, posted by world citizen on March 13, 2005, at 18:24:30
>
>
> Kara, why don't you hop on over to joe@dancesafe.org and ask him?That's his e-mail address right? Should I just recopy my post and send it to him. Should I use your name or is he used to getting e-mails from strangers?
Posted by Elroy on March 13, 2005, at 20:08:46
In reply to RE: DLPA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 13, 2005, at 15:56:51
Note my other post where I found a posting at that DanceSafe site (and it was also from "Joe" as I recall) that specifically refers to DLPA combination making anxiety worse! So which is it? My response - just in taking it a couple days - was that there was some increase in anxiety for sure. Would it have gone away after a few days, well, don't know. With Xanax and Neurontin controlling the anxiety - and not having that much depression - not sure that messing with the DLPA combo right now is the best thing for me right now.....
But mainly I don't see a definitive answer with this question... does it cause more anxiety or lessen it? Also, I have found that there's a more active form of depression (similar to psychotic depression) that can very easily be confused with anxiety. So maybe people with an anxious form of depression benefitted from DLPA combo while thinking it was helping with an anxiety problem?????
Jeez, does this get complicated.....
> I find DLPA confusing. I've always thought of it as more stimulating and therefore, anxiety provoking. That post below was the first time I'd read that phenylalanine could be good for anxiety. I did some more research on this and found examples of both cases. In the information that said it could be good for anxiety, they also cautioned that it's not to be used by those with panic attacks. Maybe that's because it is initially stimulating and could worsen panic disorder - but that after it's taken a while, it can help with anxiety, as is often the case with SSRIs. I was also surprised to see warnings about not taking DLPA if you're already on an antidepressant. That would make sense if the antidepressants are noradrenergic or dopaminergic - but why couldn't you take it with an SSRI?
>
> k
>
>
> > Hey, I found this posting over at Joe's website (just poking around there some):
> >
> > QUOTE:
> > "DLPA (D,L-phenylalaine) 1000-2000mg, 2-3x/day w/ 50mg Vitamin B6 and 1000mg Vitamin C - Take on a completely empty stomach with 8oz of fruit juice (amino acids need simple sugars to get "pushed" where they need to go). Do not eat anything for 45-60 minutes after taking. DLPA works by naturally increasing levels of the neurotransmitters dopamine and phenethylamine and by blocking the breakdown of endorphins and enkaphalins (endogenous opiate-like substances). DLPA is the most potent anti-depressant and anxiolytic (anxiety reducer/reliever) I have ever encoutered. There are virtually no negative side effects, the side effects that there are tend to be positive such as increased sex-drive, decreased appetite and mild weight loss. Try it for 30 days. If it doesn't work then it doesn't work (it will work), but what do you have to lose? I cannot emphasize enough how potent this little amino acid is, it literally changed my life. If I had the resources to give this stuff away for free I would. TRY IT! I will personally slap anyone who says anything negative about DLPA or that it lacks "FDA approval". The FDA has no power to regulate amino-acids, which is what DLPA is. Anyone with any negative comments can go to hell, because all you're doing is discouraging people from trying this incredible substance. If you haven't tried it, keep your Goddamn mouth shut about "it doesn't work" or "if it works it would be prescribed". Anyone who wants more information can email me (joe@dancesafe.org)"
> > END QUOTE
> >
> > Pretty interesting. I note that he recommends a pretty high dose of DLPA without any deprenyl in this particular post.
> >
> > This particular page is loaded with some good info....
> >
> > http://www.dancesafe.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB30&Number=75415&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Rick, you might consider posing some of these questions to joe@dancesafe.org. He's very knowledgable about Selegelint/DLPA etc. If you do tell him World Citizen sent you.
> > >
> > > World Citizen
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Go forward in thread:
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